BMI/IAG Update

thegregster · Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:33 pm

IAG has today confirmed their intention to integrate bmi mainline into British Airways, subject to receiving regulatory approval for the acquisition. This news follows the agreement by British Airways’ pilots to make productivity changes that support the integration.

Regarding the timings of the proposed sale, the aim is for the regulatory process to be concluded around the end of Q1. In the meantime, until the completion of the transaction, we will continue to treat BA as a competitor of ours.

After completion has been achieved, for a period of time bmi will operate under its own AOC. Until further information is given to you, the current set up of the company remains unchanged. We need to carry on managing the bmi business for 2012 as normal and our summer 2012 network is currently planned without any major changes.

We will work with BA to develop an integration roadmap and to ensure an effective integration process. We will also continue to demonstrate to BA that our people are our major strength, both in the Midlands , at London Heathrow and around our network.

We understand that you have many questions but please be assured that we are giving you as much information as we can and we will continue to keep you updated.

Best regards,

Wolfgang Prock-Schauer

lhr380 · Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:46 pm

I guess this is the same thing im trying to read on my companies Intranet but it seems to be down for some reason.

[Edited 2012-02-03 12:49:16]

GSTBA · Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting thegregster (Thread starter):
After completion has been achieved, for a period of time bmi will operate under its own AOC. Until further information is given to you, the current set up of the company remains unchanged. We need to carry on managing the bmi business for 2012 as normal and our summer 2012 network is currently planned without any major changes.

IAG want BD to be integrated into BA ideally by the beginning of the Winter 12 schedule and at the very latest by JAN 2013. BD's Flight and cabin crew will be integrated into the new operation.

I recently heard IAG are not planning to dispose of any of the aircraft that are currently in the BD fleet. IAG plan to intergrate the A319/A320/A321 aircraft into the BA fleet. The additional aircraft will allow BA to begin replacing there 19 LGW based 734 fleet with 20 A320 family aircraft. IAG will send the 11 ex BD (144 seater) A319's to LGW. It is unclear as yet if the LGW Airbus fleet will be made up of just A319's or of a mixture of A319/A320 or A319/A321's. I personally think BA will opt for a A319/A320 with BA sending the 7 ex BD A320's and 2 additional A319's down to join the 11 ex BD A319's.

BA will retain the A321's at LHR and will use the aircraft to operate those short haul routes currently operated by the 767. The 7 free'd up 767's could then be converted to a long haul configuration and used to open new routes.

BD's 2 x A332's will join a ex AB A332 & ex AZ A332 that are planned to join the IB fleet in late 2012

xiaotung · Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:52 pm

Any indication as to when BD will exit *A?

tcxdegsy · Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:24 pm

I have a friend who's friend is a BD Crew member, and BA have already offered them a contract to move over....

conicidence? Maybe not!

SKY1 · Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 2):
BD's 2 x A332's will join a ex AB A332 & ex AZ A332 that are planned to join the IB fleet in late 2012

IB rejected those A332 (the AB and AZ frames, I mean) because a poor maintenance. My lastest news about the issue is IB will have only brand-new A333's by late 2013 and it seems unlikely to see ex BD planes going to IB.

1stfl94 · Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:33 pm

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 2):
IAG want BD to be integrated into BA ideally by the beginning of the Winter 12 schedule and at the very latest by JAN 2013. BD's Flight and cabin crew will be integrated into the new operation.

I recently heard IAG are not planning to dispose of any of the aircraft that are currently in the BD fleet. IAG plan to intergrate the A319/A320/A321 aircraft into the BA fleet. The additional aircraft will allow BA to begin replacing there 19 LGW based 734 fleet with 20 A320 family aircraft. IAG will send the 11 ex BD (144 seater) A319's to LGW. It is unclear as yet if the LGW Airbus fleet will be made up of just A319's or of a mixture of A319/A320 or A319/A321's. I personally think BA will opt for a A319/A320 with BA sending the 7 ex BD A320's and 2 additional A319's down to join the 11 ex BD A319's.

BA will retain the A321's at LHR and will use the aircraft to operate those short haul routes currently operated by the 767. The 7 free'd up 767's could then be converted to a long haul configuration and used to open new routes.

BD's 2 x A332's will join a ex AB A332 & ex AZ A332 that are planned to join the IB fleet in late 2012

That plan makes a lot of sense but will especially as it will eventually give BA one single short haul aircraft type. Although it might mean losing one of the chances to fly a widebody in Europe!. If BA are using the A321s to replace shorthaul 767s will this mean they get shorthaul configs or will they stay midhaul to keep any of the old BMI routes?

LHRFlyer · Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:13 am

Quoting tcxdegsy (Reply 4):
I have a friend who's friend is a BD Crew member, and BA have already offered them a contract to move over....

conicidence? Maybe not!

Until the deal completes BA and BD are competitors so it is coincidence.

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 2):
I recently heard IAG are not planning to dispose of any of the aircraft that are currently in the BD fleet. IAG plan to intergrate the A319/A320/A321 aircraft into the BA fleet. The additional aircraft will allow BA to begin replacing there 19 LGW based 734 fleet with 20 A320 family aircraft. IAG will send the 11 ex BD (144 seater) A319's to LGW. It is unclear as yet if the LGW Airbus fleet will be made up of just A319's or of a mixture of A319/A320 or A319/A321's. I personally think BA will opt for a A319/A320 with BA sending the 7 ex BD A320's and 2 additional A319's down to join the 11 ex BD A319's.

BA will retain the A321's at LHR and will use the aircraft to operate those short haul routes currently operated by the 767. The 7 free'd up 767's could then be converted to a long haul configuration and used to open new routes.

BD's 2 x A332's will join a ex AB A332 & ex AZ A332 that are planned to join the IB fleet in late 2012

Not sure about this. I doubt anything regarding fleet plans has been finalised yet.

If LGW does get BD aircraft, I don't think it would be anything other than a A319. Also by many accounts the leasing charges for some BD aircraft are not competitive so I think IAG will want to return as many to lessors as possible. I would have thought a lot of the extra capacity would be made up by deferring retirements of existing BA Airbus aircraft.

I also doubt you'll see short-haul 767s converted to long-haul. I think extra long haul capacity will be in the form of 777/787s.

I didn't know Iberia was getting 2nd hand A330s. I thought they were supposed to be new from Airbus?

bwaflyer · Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:31 am

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 7):
Quoting tcxdegsy (Reply 4):
I have a friend who's friend is a BD Crew member, and BA have already offered them a contract to move over....

conicidence? Maybe not!

Until the deal completes BA and BD are competitors so it is coincidence.

I'm a bmi crew member, and your friend would be the only person to have done so. It's been made very clear to us that BA are still a competitor and should be treated as such, and until the deal is completed, the competition authorities would look very dimly on any kind of commercial cooperation between the two carriers. It may be that your friend applied for Mixed Fleet previously and their contract has just come through as part of the normal employment process?

vv701 · Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:34 am

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 7):
Not sure about this. I doubt anything regarding fleet plans has been finalised yet

Finalised?

No, definitely not.

Planned?

Almost certainly.

To approach a possible take-over potentially with completion in the next eight weeks without already having an outline plan as to what you will do on completion would be more than unwise. It would be unthinkable. But, on the other hand, nothing can be cast in concrete until the competition authorities have had their say.

lhr380 · Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:06 am

Quoting tcxdegsy (Reply 4):

Has your friend applied to be Mixed fleet, that would be the only thing offered at the moment, as per the above comments, no other BD staff have had anything, so your friend must have applied.

OA260 · Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:36 am

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 7):
Not sure about this. I doubt anything regarding fleet plans has been finalised yet.

The plans are written and the future has been decided between both parties. The only thing stopping this roll out is the final approval. Expect a smooth transition once the green light is given.

bastew · Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:38 am

BA confirmed the same thing to us in a comms today.

Basically says that subject to regulatory approval for the aquisition BMI will be integrated into BA.

It goes on to say that this integration has become possible due to concessions and co-operation from the BA pilots and union on producivity increases that will save BA GBP10M by 2015.

There are no details on target times for completion on the BA comms.

It continues by saying the aquisition is not a done deal and until it is BA should be considered an independent competitor.

Calpe · Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:10 pm

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 2):
I recently heard IAG are not planning to dispose of any of the aircraft that are currently in the BD fleet. IAG plan to intergrate the A319/A320/A321 aircraft into the BA fleet. The additional aircraft will allow BA to begin replacing there 19 LGW based 734 fleet with 20 A320 family aircraft. IAG will send the 11 ex BD (144 seater) A319's to LGW. It is unclear as yet if the LGW Airbus fleet will be made up of just A319's or of a mixture of A319/A320 or A319/A321's. I personally think BA will opt for a A319/A320 with BA sending the 7 ex BD A320's and 2 additional A319's down to join the 11 ex BD A319's.

Would they not need to leave the BD aircraft at LHR in the short term to continue to fulfill the slots which are included in the takeover rather than using them to replace older 734's at LGW and ending up with not enough aircraft at LHR unless they getting some additional A320's from elsewhere.

BrianDromey · Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:41 pm

Quoting Calpe (Reply 13):
Would they not need to leave the BD aircraft at LHR in the short term to continue to fulfill the slots which are included in the takeover rather than using them to replace older 734's at LGW and ending up with not enough aircraft at LHR unless they getting some additional A320's from elsewhere.

It will almost certainly not happen overnight, but over the course of a number of months, I would imagine most of the duties the A319s and two short haul A320s currently fly could be better served by BA using larger aircraft on current frequencies, along with a few extra flights at peak times.
A lot of it will depend on how many, if any, of the BD routes to Africa, CIS and the Middle East BA wants to keep, although these are exclusively operated by the 7 mid-haul A321s and 4 A320s, in addition to the pair of A332s.
Is there any word on what T&C's the BD crews will get? Presimably the pilots will be added to the current BA pool, but the cabin crew, will these join MF or the old EuroFleet / WorldWide?

LHRFlyer · Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:51 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 11):

The final fleet plans will depend on how many slots BA has to cede to competitors.

As I said earlier I doubt very much that all BD aircraft will be retained and reallocated across IAG.

For a start it is known that some BD Airbus aircraft are not compatible with the BA Airbus fleet. Add to that the fact that the majority of the BD fleet is leased, then I expect IAG to seek to return as many leased aircraft to lessors as soon as possible. It is a lot cheaper to defer the retirement of a near fully depreciated BA Airbus aircraft than to continue paying leasing charges for a BD aircraft and refit/repaint them to BA product and livery.

It was originally intended that all but 1 long haul 767 would have left the fleet by 2015 (to be replaced by 787s). If BD is faciliate long-haul expansion, I doubt BA needs to convert the short-haul 767s to long-haul. Delaying the retirement of the existing long-haul 767s should be sufficient.

Tristarsteve · Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 15):
It is a lot cheaper to defer the retirement of a near fully depreciated BA Airbus aircraft

Er but the oldest BA Airbus is only 12 years old.

At present BA is short of Airbus aircraft. Look at the number of Long haul B767 operating in Europe at present. At least one every day, and sometimes two or three. This is not by design but because of unplanned maintenance on all A320s.

BA has no deliveries planned until the A380 arrives in 13 months. I can't see any BD aircraft going anywhere until after this, unless BA has to give up some slots. BD aircraft will be operating from LHR for at least the next year, but maybe on new routes.

Calpe · Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 16):
Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 15):
It is a lot cheaper to defer the retirement of a near fully depreciated BA Airbus aircraft

Er but the oldest BA Airbus is only 12 years old.

I think LHRflyer is refering the 734's at Gatwick as being just about fully depreciated. Do BA not have 5 airbus A320's on order at the moment which are being transferred from an IB order?

LHRFlyer · Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:22 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 16):
At present BA is short of Airbus aircraft. Look at the number of Long haul B767 operating in Europe at present. At least one every day, and sometimes two or three. This is not by design but because of unplanned maintenance on all A320s.

767s are used on some routes (FRA, MAD etc) because of cargo capacity.

vv701 · Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 16):
BA has no deliveries planned until the A380 arrives in 13 months.

It was reported 20 months ago that five 320s ordered from Airbus by IB would be sold to BA on delivery:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...04/iberia-ba-idUSLDE6530VG20100604

Do you know if this is still likely and, if so, when the deliveries are due? Perhaps, with the likely influx of BD metal, this plan has now been dropped.

JerseyFlyer · Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:52 pm

Were the LGW 734s not recently (or soon) receiving engine updates to reduce fuel consumption for which the financial payback requires at least a few more years' operations?

[Edited 2012-02-04 06:53:00]

Speedbird2155 · Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 11):
The plans are written and the future has been decided between both parties. The only thing stopping this roll out is the final approval. Expect a smooth transition once the green light is given.

The plans are just that....plans. Nothing has been finalised expect that BD will be integrated. Once the purchase is cleared and finalised, the BA will be able to work on finalising plans based on an in-depth discussions and investigation of the BD operation. Until such time, BA is restricted as to what information it has access to regarding BD and their operations. Integration plans are unlikely to be finalised for several months following completion of the sale.

Tristarsteve · Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:06 pm

Quoting Calpe (Reply 17):
I think LHRflyer is refering the 734's at Gatwick as being just about fully depreciated

Some of the LGW B734s are on lease. At lease one lease expires this year and the aircraft will be returned.

skipness1E · Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 22):
At lease one lease expires this year and the aircraft will be returned.

How do you know this?

imiakhtar · Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 23):
How do you know this?

According to caa.uk, G-GBTB is leased.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 20):
Were the LGW 734s not recently (or soon) receiving engine updates to reduce fuel consumption for which the financial payback requires at least a few more years' operations?

Yes they did.

British Airways Orders 20 CFM56-3 Advanced Upgrade Kits
--EVENDALE, Ohio -- British Airways has placed an order 20 CFM56-3 Advanced Upgrades kits for its 737 Classic fleet. The order is valued at approximately $33 million at list price, and the kits begin delivery early next year. The order could potentially encompass as many as 44 CFM56-3 engines.

http://www.geaviation.com/aboutgeae/...fm56/cfm56-3/cfm56-3_20081117.html

Notice however, the contract does not cover the entire 734 fleet.

LHRFlyer · Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting bastew (Reply 12):
It goes on to say that this integration has become possible due to concessions and co-operation from the BA pilots and union on producivity increases that will save BA GBP10M by 2015.

Thinking about this and productivity, I wonder to what extent BA will seek to utilise some of extra slots by increasing utilisation of the existing BA fleet by improving turnaround times for short-haul aircraft at LHR (not an easy task I know) through changing working practices?

skipness1E · Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:39 am

Just wondering how he knows the lease is up and not being extended. I understood they would fly the B734s til end of life.

boysteve · Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:34 am

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 25):
improving turnaround times for short-haul aircraft at LHR (not an easy task I know) through changing working practices?

Sounds good, and I am sure turnaround times are longer in some instances due to no earlier slots being avaiable to depart LHR, however this changing work practices sounds like a new strike might be coming along!

GCPET · Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:11 am

I'd been told that the A319's hadn't worked very well at Gatwick for BA, so if they hadn't and they wanted to replace some of the 737's, shouldn't they just use the old BMI A320's and maybe a few A321's?

GCPET

skipness1E · Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:24 pm

As has been stated the BMI fleet will be needed keep the LHR slots for quite some time, until BA can swap them for long haul. What was your friends complaint about the A319. Works rather well for both BA and easyJet.

GCPET · Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 29):

I can't remember exactly what he'd said but it was on the lines that the A319 didn't seem to suit what Gatwick's BA operations wanted so they reverted back to the 737's and the A319's were returned to LHR and the crews that trained for the Airbus were retrained back onto the 737's.

GCPET

skipness1E · Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:18 pm

Not sure I get that, BA always sends a few A319s to LGW over the summer as the flying program is bigger.

AIR MALTA · Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting GCPET (Reply 30):
I can't remember exactly what he'd said but it was on the lines that the A319 didn't seem to suit what Gatwick's BA operations wanted so they reverted back to the 737's and the A319's were returned to LHR and the crews that trained for the Airbus were retrained back onto the 737's

The 319s might be small for LGW when compared to the 734... Bucket & Spade routes might need more seats to be filled in...

B747-4U3 · Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting GCPET (Reply 30):
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 29):

I can't remember exactly what he'd said but it was on the lines that the A319 didn't seem to suit what Gatwick's BA operations wanted so they reverted back to the 737's and the A319's were returned to LHR and the crews that trained for the Airbus were retrained back onto the 737's.

Perhaps it was operating both the 319s and 734s at the same time that was the issue rather than a problem with the 319 per se?

I would imagine that operating both types would increase complexity at Gatwick due to crew training, maintenance and rostering.

I presume the same would be true if the 734s were reintroduced at Heathrow.

bwaflyer · Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 32):
The 319s might be small for LGW when compared to the 734... Bucket & Spade routes might need more seats to be filled in...

Current BA A319s seat 132, current BA 734s seat 147. bmi's A319s (once currently on going galley mods are finished) will all seat 144, almost the same as the 737s.

1stfl94 · Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting bwaflyer (Reply 34):
Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 32):
The 319s might be small for LGW when compared to the 734... Bucket & Spade routes might need more seats to be filled in...

Current BA A319s seat 132, current BA 734s seat 147. bmi's A319s (once currently on going galley mods are finished) will all seat 144, almost the same as the 737s

Will BMI carry on with their refurbishments, it was rumoured there was going to be a new mid haul cabin this year but I'm guessing thats gone now. On the other hand, might BA up their capacity, having been on one of BMI's 144 seat A319s the crew didn't seem to have any issues carrying out a full service (was on a TXL flight), BA could get some shorthaul capacity without needing to increase the fleet.

TFFIP · Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:57 am

If BD cabin crew are merged with Mixed Fleet will they take pay cuts? They earn quite a bit more at BD.

bwaflyer · Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:02 am

Quoting TFFIP (Reply 36):
If BD cabin crew are merged with Mixed Fleet will they take pay cuts? They earn quite a bit more at BD.

That's the big question that worries us all. I guess we won't hear any concrete plans until regulatory approval is granted.

TFFIP · Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:47 pm

I was BD now mixed fleet. My mates still at BD are speculating wildly as you can imagine...

raffik · Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:09 pm

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 35):
Will BMI carry on with their refurbishments, it was rumoured there was going to be a new mid haul cabin this year

Hasn't this already been implemented ? I think the have new leather seats installed. I'm flying Business class Heathrow to Moscow on Thursday and it's supposed to have the new interior fitted.

If BA want to use the A32S for short haul operations from LHR, what about routes such as Beirut (BEY) which operate with A321s currently (BMI) twice per day? Will they be upgraded to 767s? 777s? Or will BA keep a subfleet of A321s for those routes?

vv701 · Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting raffik (Reply 39):
If BA want to use the A32S for short haul operations from LHR, what about routes such as Beirut (BEY) which operate with A321s currently (BMI) twice per day? Will they be upgraded to 767s? 777s?

BA will have lots of calls for larger aircraft. For example consider BD's current six-daily LHR-EDI flights and the nearest of the BA nine-daily flights (in terms of departure time) on the same route:

BD050 d. 08:20. BA1434 d. 08:05

BD052 d. 10:15. BA1442 d. 10:45

BD056 d. 13:50. BA1446 d. 13:25

BD058 d. 16:25. BA1452 d. 16:15

BD060 d. 18:25. BA1458 d. 18:30

BD062 d. 20:40. BA1464 d. 21:00

All of the BA flights except BA1464 are scheduled to be operated by 320s with their last flight of the day a 321. I suspect that BA will be looking to merge several of these flight pairs which will obviously require larger equipment. So I therefore think that routes like BEY wiil continue to be operated with the aircraft currently used by BD.

If this is correct - and I cannot really see BA operating flights with departure times of 18:25 and 18:30 or 16:15 and 16:25 to the same destination - it poses a new question: Where will BA depoloy the short haul aircraft BD currently fly between LHR and EDI?

fcogafa · Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 40):
Where will BA depoloy the short haul aircraft BD currently fly between LHR and EDI?

Maybe they will restart the old BMA routes to Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds and Teeside!

vv701 · Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 41):
Maybe they will restart the old BMA routes to Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds and Teeside!

But where would they get one of these:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

lhr380 · Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 41):
Maybe they will restart the old BMA routes to Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds and Teeside!

No chance! We wont see them at all. Slots are more valuable to Longhaul and Euro then adding more domestic service.

skipness1E · Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 41):
Maybe they will restart the old BMA routes to Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds and Teeside!

I think they should get the ATPs back and operate LHR-EMA-BHX-LHR allowing the business community to connect with long haul.
Just my two cents worth !

Skipness One Echo

"Emirates One Super, Heathrow Tower, speed 160 to 4 DME, the Shorts 360 ahead will be clearing early, expect late landing clearance. Break, Midland Seven Seven Four, can you pedal faster sir?"

Tristarsteve · Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 40):
Where will BA depoloy the short haul aircraft BD currently fly between LHR and EDI?

We have been told that ARN will get its sixth daily flight back. It was lost a year ago due slot shortage at LHR.
Also OSL will get another daily flight. Both cities have good yields for BA.

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