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OA260
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:09 am

The Mail has already started the blame game :

Airport bosses came under fire last night after cancelling a third of today’s flights at Heathrow because of severe weather – nine hours before a flake of snow had even fallen.
Amid forecasts of six inches of snow and possible freezing fog, Spanish-owned operator BAA announced yesterday morning that 30 per cent of today’s flights from the world’s busiest airport – about 200 – would not take off to ‘minimise disruption to passengers’.
It means that the flights of up to 18,000 travellers could be cancelled or rescheduled as airlines scramble to adjust their flight plans. The decision was in stark contrast to airports across most of Europe where, despite arctic conditions, flights were due to take off as normal. Munich saw temperatures plunge to minus 27C on Friday night but the airport expected no disruptions today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...l?ITO=socialnet-twitter-mailonline
 
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GCT64
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 50):
The decision was in stark contrast to airports across most of Europe where, despite arctic conditions, flights were due to take off as normal.

The Daily Mail is clearly willfully ignoring Friday's chaos at AMS. I had a colleague at AMS who boarded his flight at just after 1200 and didn't take off till 1645 with the intervening time spent sat on the aircraft going nowhere. I think BAA made exactly the right decision - decide early and give travellers the chance to implement Plan B.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:44 am

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 51):

Precisely. Amsterdam was in a complete mess on Friday.

I love the "artistic licence" that the Daily Fail has so obviously taken here.

Airlines "scrambling" to re-adjust flights? Doubtful - the Operations Controller probably took a quick look at his screen, chatted briefly with the Commercial department, and decided to remove some rotations mainly from high frequency, short haul services where pax could be easily re-accomodated, and hit the cancel button. You see, this the beauty of PRO-ACTIVELY dealing with the situation, and requesting a certain percentage cut to operations. The situation is clear, well understood, and means passengers dont have to wait in endless queues as information slowly drips out.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 50):
Munich saw temperatures plunge to minus 27C on Friday night but the airport expected no disruptions today.

It's not the temperature that's the issue - it's the snowfall, which again the Daily Mail has failed to mention.

Damned if they do, Damned if they dont. If I were BAA, i'd be going on the total attack over this one - while also pointing out "if you wont allow us to expand and introduce spare capacity - then you will have to live with the inevitable disruptions"
 
Oak522
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:40 am

I'm sure this comes up every time one of the Euroports shuts down because of snow, but why are the UK and Low Countries totally unable to cope with snow? I've lived in the UK before, and I know that in the past--read: before the planet started boiling--there weren't gobs of snow every year, but the drama and panic every time escape me. Met Office warnings for "Heavy Snow of 2.5cm" make me giggle every year. It's the European equivalent of Washington, DC--it snows there, every year, get your act together and stop with the dramatics!

P.S.--I'm with all of the supporters of the preemptive cancellations. The process seems to work well, and can lead to interesting spotting, as when we in PIT had a glut of planes to see during a hurricane over US Labor Day in September.
 
LJ
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:12 am

Quoting Oak522 (Reply 53):
I'm sure this comes up every time one of the Euroports shuts down because of snow, but why are the UK and Low Countries totally unable to cope with snow?

This question seems to prop up every year and the answer is simple. It's not economical capable to invest in the equipment and the people who have to operate the equipment don't have the routine to do so. If you have a few days of heavy snow a year (if at all as this is something only the last 3 years happened) you have yo ask yourself what's better. Run an adjusted schedule for a few days or invest in very expensive equipment.The same applies to the rest of the infrastructure (roads and railroads). Here you see the same trade off.
 
nasula
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:40 am

If someone has the plan for 2011/2012 we can compare if they've learned anything from previous years at heathrow.

Here's the link to the 2010/2011 snow [email protected]:
http://www.baa.com/assets/Internet/H.../Aerodrome_Snow_Plan_2010_2011.pdf

Everyone can make their own conclusions from the plan as to have their investments been too much or too little for an airport the size of Heathrow. For me the interesting thing would be a comparison between last year and this year. Also against Gatwick since it is in the same location, but under different management.

One solution to LHR issues (fog IS a common occurrance in London) would be to reduce the number of slots and force operators to use larger planes. That would give more room for adjustments when needed.

Regs, Jarkko
 
imiakhtar
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:49 am

BA has had a number of longhaul diversions to Cardiff and Glasgow.

Can anyone explain the decision making process when opting to divert? Granted, BA has maintenance available at both Glasgow and Cardiff, but MAN and BHX are closer to LHR and as far as I know, they're open.

And it looks like BA192, after holding for 10min is now diverting to Shannon. Fuel reserves can't be an issue, is it slots?

[Edited 2012-02-04 23:53:42]
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:07 am

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 56):

Click on image for larger picture
Looks like BA246 has given up on landing at LHR and appears to be going to AMS.
Almost 7 laps of the Ockham beacon.  Wow!
divert
 
imiakhtar
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:14 am

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 57):
Click on image for larger picture
Looks like BA246 has given up on landing at LHR and appears to be going to AMS.
Almost 7 laps of the Ockham beacon.

Personally, I think it's quite comical. All of the prior diverts were also established in the holds. Guessing where they'll divert to is like trying to pin the tail on the donkey!
 
JL418
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:15 am

I'm at home in Shepherd's bush and the amount of snow in my garden is less than 2 cms. I don't know how much of the white stuff LHR got but if it's anything like that I guess it won't be long before things get back to normality... Ah, it's not snowing anymore here.
 
UAL747
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:23 am

I just landed at LHR on UA 34 from Houston IAH. We were in a holding pattern with a lot of aircraft doing circles for about 45 min before we started to land. Conditions are low visibility here, low clouds, though it is not snowing. Our captain actually said conditions had improved at LHR since our take off from IAH. You can tell LHR is on a compromised and reduced schedule. Doesn't seem very busy at all. Terminal 4 is bustling with people however.

Anway, looks like United 35 will be departing on time. Gonna finish up this here bloody mary and head to gate 7! Cheers!

*BTW, it sure was a bumpy night across the north Atlantic! I swear we hit every pothole from Houston to Shannon!

UAL
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:15 am

Quoting Oak522 (Reply 53):
I'm sure this comes up every time one of the Euroports shuts down because of snow, but why are the UK and Low Countries totally unable to cope with snow?

Every time the snow ploughs and deicing rigs take a trip down the runways at LHR, quite a few movements have to be cancelled.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:34 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 61):

I guess so, another BA flight appears to be heading for LGW this time after squatting over Southend for ages.

divert again


Edit - Not LGW but CDG.

[Edited 2012-02-05 01:45:55]
 
Maverick623
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:44 am

Quoting flylku (Reply 23):
Shoot, if they're not going to build another runway at lease make the investment necessary for snow operations and "keep'em flying!".

Yep, let's spend billions of dollars for a system that might get used once a year. Maybe twice in a bad year.

Quoting fca767 (Reply 40):
"we don't get heat that often so people are getting heatstroke"

Comparing life-threatening events with minor inconveniences?

Seriously, what IS it about air travel that causes people to reduce to blubbering morons?

Quoting Oak522 (Reply 53):
P.S.--I'm with all of the supporters of the preemptive cancellations.

IMO, those deriding the preemptive cancellations deserve to sit on an airplane for 6 hours with no lav service.
 
JL418
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:30 am

I hope today's events will convince Downing Street that more capacity at Heathrow is needed and NOT some preposterous new airport with two runways on the other corner of the city.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:55 am

Odd things happening today, I see the BA282 from LAX has been cancelled.
It flew from LAX,empty I presume, and is now over the chanel on route to BCN where it will depart at 13:50 as BA282 to LHR.

Edit- add to that BA292, now on 10th lap over Bovingdon.

[Edited 2012-02-05 03:09:45]
 
nasula
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:01 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 63):
Yep, let's spend billions of dollars for a system that might get used once a year. Maybe twice in a bad year.

Billions? I did start finding data so here goes: Heathrow used to spend about 1,5M/year. Last year (how lucky for them) they dropped it to one third of the amount (0,5M£). The plan was to use 3M£ over 4 years. http://www.channel4.com/news/heathro...t-snow-defence-spend-by-two-thirds

Gatwick on the other hand spent 8M£ on the smaller airport and as a result suffered much less. Heathrow lost an estimated 25M£ due to last years single snow fall. So I guess they saved in the right place?

The BAA asked for an inquiry (very commendable), which recommended 14 actions to be taken and BAA committed to all of them spending 32M£ this year to improve snow and ice preparedness. For example tripling the number of kit and personnell to drive the kit. So the need over a year seems to have been 9 times what was actually budgeted over four years (making it an even greater disparity).

http://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/Safety%...ence%20Programme%20Sept%202011.pdf

So this year Heathrow should be able to cope much much better than last year, which is good news.

I argued this same point last year (that spending a bit more would have saved a lot more), but I really got blasted for it with all kinds of excuses leading up to the best one "the type of snow we get is so difficult, nobody else gets this type of snow!". Yeah, right. The truth is that they were saving in the wrong place.

Regs, Jarkko
 
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GCT64
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:17 am

Quoting JL418 (Reply 64):
I hope today's events will convince Downing Street that more capacity at Heathrow is needed

Any additional capacity will be filled up to 99% usage and then we will have exactly the same problem when the snow comes and movements need to be reduced to allow for runway snow clearance. AMS has 5(?) runways and still suffered meltdown on Friday.
 
flyingfool
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:42 am

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 67):
AMS has 5(?) runways and still suffered meltdown on Friday.

There are actually 6 operational runways at AMS.

Last Friday was indeed chaos in The Netherlands, but AMS airport was only for about 30 minutes closed for arriving and departing traffic to clear runway 18C from snow.

Mike
 
AlwaysOnAPlane
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:05 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 65):
Odd things happening today, I see the BA282 from LAX has been cancelled.
It flew from LAX,empty I presume, and is now over the chanel on route to BCN where it will depart at 13:50 as BA282 to LHR.

Yea, a contrail got my attention this morning, making a big loop over Manchester. Fired up PlaneFinder and it was the 282. Flew over the West coast, flew a strange pattern over Manchester at FL320 then as you say headed South again. I would have thought it was one of those strange bugs you sometimes get with these flight radar things if I hadn't seen the contrail to back it up.
 
22886
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:08 pm

BA98 from YYZ just diverted to PIK without even attempting to get in to LHR. Pax are staying overnight in PIK before flying onwards to LHR the next day.
 
JL418
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:40 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 67):
Any additional capacity will be filled up to 99% usage and then we will have exactly the same problem when the snow comes and movements need to be reduced to allow for runway snow clearance. AMS has 5(?) runways and still suffered meltdown on Friday.

Well that's not necessarily true. First, it is to be seen whether the extra capacity given by an additional runway and stands will be filled up at 99% or not and, second, a new runway and stands would give LHR stand and EQS allocators some more space to play with. Today a tug breaking down while doing a pushback or a plane that can't leave a stand because of snow almost automatically means a flight cancelled (the one leaving) and one diverted (the one arriving on that stand). With three runways and some more "parking space"... it'd be much better.
 
anstar
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:46 pm

Quoting flyingfool (Reply 68):

Last Friday was indeed chaos in The Netherlands, but AMS airport was only for about 30 minutes closed for arriving and departing traffic to clear runway 18C from snow.

And even with 6 runways loads of flights were delayed and cancelled.
 
nasula
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:50 pm

Quoting JL418 (Reply 71):
Today a tug breaking down while doing a pushback or a plane that can't leave a stand because of snow almost automatically means a flight cancelled (the one leaving) and one diverted (the one arriving on that stand). With three runways and some more "parking space"... it'd be much better.

Doesn't that just mean that there are too many slots allocated @Hethrow? A lower number of slots would force larger planes for intra-european flights, thus not necessarily reducing the number of passengers. But it would reduce revenue from landing fees etc.

I do tend to agree with the claim that the usage ratio at Heathrow is too high. You get problems in normal UK weather as well (fog, rain).

Regs, Jarkko
 
JL418
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting nasula (Reply 73):
Doesn't that just mean that there are too many slots allocated @Hethrow? A lower number of slots would force larger planes for intra-european flights, thus not necessarily reducing the number of passengers. But it would reduce revenue from landing fees etc.

I do tend to agree with the claim that the usage ratio at Heathrow is too high. You get problems in normal UK weather as well (fog, rain).

Regs, Jarkko

I guess you're right but, given the demand and the capacity constraints (no flights at night, 2 runways, limited stand availability) a high number of slots is the only possible thing to do to cope with demand from airlines. It's quite irresponsible in my opinion, more or less like allowing buildings to be built meters away from the runways, but it's not me running BAA.
 
777boi
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:00 pm

Left last night (04/02) on EK004 with a 6 hr delay! Had to de-ice 3 times! Not sure what it is like tonight, but last night was a nightmare! Are flights leaving now?
 
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flylku
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:04 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 25):
Given LHR has hardly any spare capacity - as soon as any irregular ops happen you are going to get cancellations.

Agreed and snow should result in some delays but with proper preparation and equipment, nothing like what it does.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 63):
Yep, let's spend billions of dollars for a system that might get used once a year. Maybe twice in a bad year.

Billions? Hardly. Snow removal equipment and de-icing stands would hardly cost even tens of millions. Yes, it might be used a couple times a year, but this is LHR for goodness sake. The billion dollar fix is the third runway. As the first quote above points out, the smallest hiccup causes problems. But their ability as-is to handle snow certainly warrants improvement.
 
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flylku
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:12 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 24):
Dont even try to compare LHR to a Finnish airport. They are NOTHING alike when it comes to the amount of snow it can get.........

Absolutely true. But there is s cultural reaction that is at work here. Yes, yes, LHR is at or over capacity and even rain creates delays, fair enough. But the English are like us here where I live, around Washington DC. We hear snow, even small amounts of it, is coming and we shut down. There are other cultures who, because they have so much of it, have adapted to it. We can learn a lot from them and do a better job when it is our turn to deal with .... snow.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting 777boi (Reply 75):

Yep, departures are quite good.

Quoting 22886 (Reply 70):
Pax are staying overnight in PIK before flying onwards to LHR the next day.

Good luck,they will need it, forecast 05:00 ICE with sleet showers for the London area set to linger.  
 
airbazar
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:00 pm

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 9):
BAA and the airlines have made a decision to try to avoid chaos by reducing the operation, which is a smart move to help keep things moving.

Ummm, no. BAA has unilaterally made that decision by chosing not to equip and prepare to maintain the airport operational during even the most minimal of snow falls. Under those conditions the airlines have no choice but to cancel flights.
 
reifel
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:12 pm

Just landed in Frankfurt (with LX from ZRH, so no snow problems). There were 2x744 and 2x772 from BA on the apron. On the departure screen they were all suposed to leave at 1pm but were showed as delayed (it was already 2 pm at that time). Must have been a difficult day for the BA staff at Frankfurt, especially if the flights were full.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:22 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 79):
Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 9):BAA and the airlines have made a decision to try to avoid chaos by reducing the operation, which is a smart move to help keep things moving.
Ummm, no. BAA has unilaterally made that decision by chosing not to equip and prepare to maintain the airport operational during even the most minimal of snow falls. Under those conditions the airlines have no choice but to cancel flights.

Incorrect, as stated above BAA have now made quite a significant investment in snow clearing equipment, the problem is that this equipment requires runway and taxiway time in order to do its job. LHR doesn't have any spare runway/taxiway time, so flights have to be cancelled for every clearance run.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 79):
Ummm, no. BAA has unilaterally made that decision by chosing not to equip and prepare to maintain the airport operational during even the most minimal of snow falls. Under those conditions the airlines have no choice but to cancel flights.

If you think that then I'm afraid you really don't understand the situation at Heathrow. To quote myself to save having to write it all over again;

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 45):
even a very minor amount of snow on a runway has a significant affect on the braking characteristics of aircraft, reducing the frequency of landings and take offs. When you are dealing with runways operating at 98/99% capacity you are dammed if you do or damned if you don't; do you close the runway down to clear the snow/slush and cause 'x' number of delays and cancellations, or do you do nothing at all and take the consequences of even poorer braking action and cause 'y' number of delays and cancellations anyway? There is no happy magical 'be more prepared' third choice, you are going to have major delays no matter what.

The reality is that a third runway is the only potential solution, so until that happens or until Heathrow is replaced these delays will continue to occur even during minor weather events like this because preparation is not the key factor.


Dan  
 
Glom
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:07 pm

The Daily Mail are such...

Anyway, have the advanced cancellations and the extra equipment worked? Have the flights running been able to run with reasonably reliability?
 
nasula
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 82):
The reality is that a third runway is the only potential solution, so until that happens or until Heathrow is replaced these delays will continue to occur even during minor weather events like this because preparation is not the key factor.

At the risk of repeating myself my question still stands: Wouldn't a solution be to reduce landing slots at the airport. This would give more room for delays and airlines would only have to upgauge aircraft and reduce frequency. For example if every European destination that has more than say 6 flights/day would be forced to reduce by one, would that actually cause any real disadvantage?

Regs, Jarkko
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting nasula (Reply 84):
At the risk of repeating myself my question still stands: Wouldn't a solution be to reduce landing slots at the airport. This would give more room for delays and airlines would only have to upgauge aircraft and reduce frequency. For example if every European destination that has more than say 6 flights/day would be forced to reduce by one, would that actually cause any real disadvantage?

I wouldn't call that a long term solution though, because it's simply not economically feasible given the parameters of Heathrow. It is however a short term solution for periods of disruptive weather, and that approach is essentially what BAA have taken this time. What needs to be remembered is that on average weather only causes delays like this at Heathrow for a few days a year, so there is no business case for blanket reducing operations just so that things run a little more smoothly during the 5% (normally much less) of the year when the weather is bad.


Dan  
 
AIR MALTA
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:20 pm

My 15:40 BRU-LHR was cancelled yesterday and I woke up today with BA027 LHR-HKG at 20:55 on a 77W being also cancelled... Bye bye Hong Kong!
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:21 pm

Here are a few of the problems facing BA planners and customers at the moment.

BA12 SIN @ PIK
BA26 HKG @ CWL
BA28 HKG @ PIK
BA10 SYD @ AMS
BA66 PHL @ AMS
BA174 JFK @ CWL
BA138 BOM @ CWL
BA142 DEL @ GLA
BA246 GRU @ AMS
BA192 DFW @ SNN
BA214 BOS @ FRA

I guess the Cardiff customers might be tempted to rent a car or catch a train to get home sooner.
All aircraft are due into LHR Monday AM, weather permitting.
 
BD338
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:27 pm

The Daily Mail just went for the cheap headline and decided to ignore reality. Last year LHR was woefully unprepared, this year they invested in equipment (not sure if that worked or not) and airlines took pro-active steps to mitigate long term delays by cancelling certain flights. Now, no doubt people were inconvencied but is it better to inconvenience 25% of your customers or 50% or more if (pardon the pun) the snowball effect of delayed flights takes hold?

If an airport operates at 98% capacity, such as LHR does, then it does not take much of anything to cause problems. Snow causes a lot of transport to slow down (roads, trains etc.) airports are not immune, ice/snow on a taxiway/runway = slower movements, reduced visibilitiy = increased separation and reduced flow. It is not rocket science. I don't care if you have all the snowplows in the world it is impossible to keep a runway fully open at maximum capacity during a bad weather event.

While it is always possible to improve, should LHR invest huge sums of money in tripling snow/ice equipment, heated stands, runways etc. for a once or twice a year event?? Those things ain't free and there is ultimately only one person going to pay...the passenger.
 
jetblast
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:20 pm

Does anyone know if BA228 ex BWI actually went to DUB? BA flight status says it did although the times don't seem to match up.

Just curious as I sent this airplane last night and I'm hoping my passengers finally made it in 
 
eicvd
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting jetblast (Reply 89):
Does anyone know if BA228 ex BWI actually went to DUB

It could have, I know there were 3 BA a/c in DUB this afternoon, a 744, 767 & 772. I have no idea where they arrived from though.
 
LGWflyer
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting jetblast (Reply 89):
Does anyone know if BA228 ex BWI actually went to DUB? BA flight status says it did although the times don't seem to match up.

Just curious as I sent this airplane last night and I'm hoping my passengers finally made it in

BA228 didn't make it to LHR and did divert to DUB.

A.net member IRISH251 has got pics of the BA diversions in the thread, and one of them was G-BNWT (BA228).

Irish 3/12: A Farewell To Fallen Friends (by kaitak Feb 4 2012 in Civil Aviation)
 
jetblast
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RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:07 pm

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 91):

Ah too bad. Thanks for that - odd to see our airplane in Dublin!
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting jetblast (Reply 92):
Ah too bad. Thanks for that - odd to see our airplane in Dublin!

No prob.   Yeah it is weird seeing all those BA heavies there! I also heard that at least one BA 777 (maybe more) diverted to CDG!!!
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting nasula (Reply 84):
Wouldn't a solution be to reduce landing slots at the airport. This would give more room for delays

So your view is that it would be better to restrict the airport capacity for 360+ days per year, so as to minimize delays 1 to 5 days per year?

The airport operators and airlines are not going to agree to reducing runway operations by X number per hour to add flexibility for possible delays at some undefined point in the future.

And no, you can't make airlines decrease frequency to force them to fly larger aircraft.
 
nasula
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:20 am

RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 94):
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 94):
So your view is that it would be better to restrict the airport capacity for 360+ days per year, so as to minimize delays 1 to 5 days per year?

The airport operators and airlines are not going to agree to reducing runway operations by X number per hour to add flexibility for possible delays at some undefined point in the future.

And no, you can't make airlines decrease frequency to force them to fly larger aircraft.

Not necessarily the airlines, but the authorities might. I frequent Heathrow roughly 1,5x/mo (flying in tomorrow again and next monday again) and more often than not if the weather is not CAVOK, the flights are delayed both inbound and outbound. So it is much more than 1-5 day/yr. Seems like fog causes similar delay issues as snow does at Heathrow.

Also the regular 10-20 minute holding pattern over the estuary is just nuts from a financial and environmental point of view and seems to be caused by overdimensioning the number of arriving flights. I cannot remember a single flight into Heathrow without a holding pattern unless it's been a TATL long distance flight.

The airlines are already "made to decrease frequency and forced to fly larger aircraft" in slot constricted airports like Heathrow so that part shouldn't be that much of an issue. Also night curfew has a similar effect.

But that's just an idea. Probably people in the know have real reasons why it's not. I just hope they are other reasons than good old fashioned short term greed.

Regs, Jarkko
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10935
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting nasula (Reply 95):
Also the regular 10-20 minute holding pattern over the estuary is just nuts from a financial and environmental point of view and seems to be caused by overdimensioning the number of arriving flights. I cannot remember a single flight into Heathrow without a holding pattern unless it's been a TATL long distance flight.

I agree with this being nuts and it does irritate me as it's so wasteful, but cutting back on slots into Heathrow is not the answer because all that traffic would still have to go somewhere, i.e. into other then equally congested airports. It would simply be moving the problem somewhere else. The sensible thing to do is to tackle the cause of it by adding runway capacity, preferably so that continuous approaches can be used.

Quoting nasula (Reply 95):
The airlines are already "made to decrease frequency and forced to fly larger aircraft" in slot constricted airports like Heathrow so that part shouldn't be that much of an issue. Also night curfew has a similar effect.

It would be an absolutely huge issue, the whole reason why some carriers are choosing to decrease short haul frequencies to the bare minimum the market requires and up-size long haul aircraft size is because LHR slots are so precious and costly to get hold of. They need to be made maximum efficient use of. The night curfew doesn't have any affect in this respect, it has not forced carriers to decrease frequencies.

Quoting nasula (Reply 95):
But that's just an idea. Probably people in the know have real reasons why it's not. I just hope they are other reasons than good old fashioned short term greed.

How is cutting the number of slots into and out of Heathrow going to benefit anyone in the short or long term? It's not greed, it's just common business sense that you can't do that kind of thing I'm afraid.


Dan  
 
flycro
Posts: 330
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:37 pm

RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:35 pm

Open 24hrs a day and flatten the village next door and build a third runway. LHR needs more capacity so it can have some slack in its operation.
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm

RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:40 pm

Well........

That was fun!!!!!!!!

No more snow please, I have had enough
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Cancelled Flights At LHR Sun 5th Feb

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:04 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 46):
Also, YUL only has a small fraction of LHR traffic, and more runways to keep things moving.

If you consider total aircraft movements, not just passenger traffic, YUL has about 48% of LHR"s movements and one more runway although the crosswind runway is too short (7,000 ft) for longhaul international flights. Corporate, cargo and other non-passenger flights require about the same amount of runway capacity as any other flight, so movements may be a more relevant statistic than passenger traffic when comparing how airports handle weather issues.

YYZ handles close to 90% of LHR"s movements and deals with snow much better. Of course it also has 5 runways.

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