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jetfuel
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:20 pm

Quoting planejamie (Reply 48):
Why do people get so worked up over these full body scanners. If you went to the doctor for a lot of X-Rays to be done, you wouldn't complain and it wouldn't affect you in the slightest

A medical X-Ray might save your life and it is a calculated risk. Being FORCED to be X-rayed is a totally different thing. Imagine people that travel by plane 2 or 3 times every week if this ridiculous legalisation caught on worldwide for all flights. It's the thin edge of the wedge and should be stopped

I would rather strip naked than be X-rayed to board a plane. Its not the one off - its the accumulation of hundreds of these exposures that is the worry
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
ordbosewr
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:24 pm

So a few uninformed questions (sorry, I tried to read all of the posts, but may have missed the answers if already given):
What about medical exceptions? Like a pregnant woman, can they be an exception?

Does this mean that for those traveling to Australia will have go through a full body scan from the outbound location. Like LAX, SFO, etc?
This could prove to be a logistical headache for the outbound airports? and then aren't they 'forcing' the Australia rules on other countries?

If they are only doing the outbound from Australia flights then they are targeting only the 'people' that are already IN Australia. Seems like a flawed approach. Don't you want to stop them from getting IN the country before that point.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting planejamie (Reply 48):
f you went to the doctor for a lot of X-Rays to be done, you wouldn't complain and it wouldn't affect you in the slightest.

False. Going through a lot of X-Rays will most certainly affect you. Perhaps not tomorrow, but in the long run, subjecting yourself to excess ionizing radiation DOES have serious health risks.

I fight tooth and nail with my doctor, dentist, etc. so that I only go through ionizing radiation tests when it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. Airport security does not count as "ABSOLUTELY necessary," therefore I refuse to go through the machines. It's that simple...

Perhaps you think its "no big deal" now... Let me know how cancer is "no big deal" when it comes your way in the future...
#AvGeek
 
kdhurst380
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:34 pm

This has been the case in the UK since their introduction, and it's going to be happening a lot more in the future.

Deal with it.
 
ULMFlyer
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:35 pm

I've recently broken my collarbone, which means that, even after getting off the sling, I won't be able to fully raise my left arm for a while.

I must say the TSA has been very accommodating in having me bypass the scanners (obviously not the metal detectors) at IAD, DCA, PIT, EWR and IAH. Had no issues whatsoever, although I do carry my x-rays in my carry on just in case.

I wonder what happens with someone in my situation in Australia. Do they scan him/her with the arm down anyway, something the TSA will not do? Is he/she not allowed to fly?
Let's go Pens!
 
Quokkas
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 51):
What about medical exceptions?

Medical exemptions will apply but the final details have not yet been made available because the bill has not been presented to Parliament. What the Minister proposes and what Parliament allows may be two different things. Even if the bill allows the Minister to issue directions or the Governor General to make Regulations, these still need to be laid before Parliament and can be disallowed. So, for the time being, no definitive answer. The bill is scheduled to be introduced during the Autumn sitting and, unless passed on the nod, will proceed through the usual Committee stages, be passed between the House and the Senate. So who knows what will actually happen? It all comes down to how much the other parties support or wish to amend it.

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 51):
and then aren't they 'forcing' the Australia rules on other countries?

Ironically, the adoption of restrictions on liquids was a result of requirements in the EU and the US as is indicated by the restrictions not applying to Australian domestic flights. Presumably because the US and the EU wished to stopped any potential terrorists getting that far, they came up with the idea of shifting the responsibility to the point of origin, freeing up checks at the destination.

Same applies to APIS data. In response to requirements elsewhere flights originating in Australia have to supply copious amounts of details about travellers arriving into other countries. Is this also not "forcing" Australia to adopt rules of other countries?
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
Western727
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:18 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 52):

Hear, hear. Having a mother who died of cancer last summer, this is a sensitive matter to me. I have been opting out when selected for the x-ray at airports. I feel for Australian cockpit/cabin crews who must accumulate small amounts of ionizing radiation on a repeated basis.

I'm 37 and have had a total of perhaps 10 medical x-rays in my lifetime and nothing else like MRIs so it could be said that, among most others, I don't have a lot to worry about. But why tempt fate if I don't have to? I'll take the pat-down and will continue to as long as the USA allows fliers to opt out.
Jack @ AUS
 
planesmith
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 1):
Oh well. Shant be going to Australia on holidays again then. Shame, as it's a lovely place.

Amen to that...
 
Escapehere
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 33):
I (in the past year) had 3 x-rays and I gave my doctors a VERY hard time about it. I do not believe in exposing oneself to additional electromagnetic waves. It IS a significant cancer risk, and it is not conducive to my beliefs.

I agree with you strongly about your concerns of radiation with these scanners. However, just FYI, you will most likely get more radiation exposure from flying than a plain medical x-ray (I'm talking about medical equipment here, not airport xray machines). A flight from New York to London will expose you to more radiation than a chest x-ray. Plain x-rays really aren't too bad, I wouldn't worry too much about three in one year. Some patients have over 10 a day whilst in hospital. You will most likely acquire hundreds of times more radiation from flying than you will from medical x-rays in your lifetime. Now CT scans are a different beast... there is significantly more radiation in them. "Normal" x-rays however are pretty low risk.
 
Escapehere
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 38):
Unfortunatly, if radiation was going to cause me cancer, it would have happened by now, I've been through so many X-rays, CT scans and MRI's that I've been over exposed already. not as worried as you would be since it sounds like you've had way less expose in your life than I've had just in the last year.

It depends on your age, but these kind of cancers can sometimes take 20-30 years to appear. The risk is very low, but there is absolutely a risk so you should still proceed with caution, nobody is immune to cancer just because they haven't got it yet! Look at asbestosis for example, there are people who get it in their 50s or 60s from asbestos exposure when they were children.

The good news is MRIs have zero radiation, so don't worry about all those you've had   MRIs use magnetic resonance to obtain images, not radiation.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:03 pm

ok AUSTRALIA off the list... from my places to go now.
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 28):
Try to put me through the scanner against my will and I will destroy it. What exactly are your Australian goons going to do then?

Plastic shackales work pretty well. If you actually damaged the machine it would, of itself, be a terrorist act. 25-35 years in prison would be the result.

Gemuser
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ordbosewr
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 55):
Same applies to APIS data. In response to requirements elsewhere flights originating in Australia have to supply copious amounts of details about travellers arriving into other countries. Is this also not "forcing" Australia to adopt rules of other countries?

I was simply asking if the originating flights from countries other than Australia will have to adhere to this policy. Thereby creating additional requirements for every country that has non-stop service to Australia.
I believe here in the US it would involve re-screening everyone prior to boarding the non-stop to Australia similar to the visa check that is performed today. Example, I can fly from ORD-SFO-SYD, but they do not always check your visa into Australia until SFO.

Yes, the USA has mandated many policies that some/many/etc have found to be intrusive, but this is not about the US.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 22):
So somebody sees your weiner, I'd much rather that, than be blown out of the sky by a bomb. I think it's too bad that ya'll would want to avoid a great place just because of that. But I totally support your right to feel the way you do and express it, but I personally can care less if they want to see my junk, so be it. I'm not going to change my plans to avoid being body scanned.

Funny that, because I have flown several hundred times, never had anyone see "my weiner" and still have not been blown out of the sky by a bomb!!!!

On a 12 hour shift here at DUB, I must witness about 400 arrivals and departures on a summer day, and have done that every day for years. Despite security not seeing any of their weiners, or indeed any of their foofoos, or gonads or boobies, not ONE of those people on not one of those flights has EVER been blown out of the sky by a bomb.

Anyway, It's not an issue of anyone "seeing my weiner". It's an issue of standing up to governments taking the CHEAP WAY OUT of providing security and thus eroding my civil rights.

People tolerated the pat downs, the bag searches etc etc. But surely you realise that something about the introduction of body scanners has finally tripped the "enough is enough" switch in a LOT of people.

I am now exercising my right to avoid having my rights taken away, and avoiding Australia. Shame, because I really like the place....
 
Wsp
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 63):
Anyway, It's not an issue of anyone "seeing my weiner". It's an issue of standing up to governments taking the CHEAP WAY OUT of providing security and thus eroding my civil rights.

There are billions to be made from all that high-tech that is being rolled out to control travel, communications and ultimately every aspect of life. There are many ways to characterize the terrorism-hysteria-industry, cheap is definitely not one of them.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting Wsp (Reply 64):
There are billions to be made from all that high-tech that is being rolled out to control travel, communications and ultimately every aspect of life. There are many ways to characterize the terrorism-hysteria-industry, cheap is definitely not one of them.

I completely agree with you about the billions being spent on security hardware - but, I stand by my comment that it is a far cheaper option for governments to circumvent your rights by a virtual strip search, than to invest in the necessary tools to accurately assess the risk of every airline passenger.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:13 pm

I presume there will continue to be Medical Exemptions for pacemakers etc????

Ruscoe
 
bcworld
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 55):
Ironically, the adoption of restrictions on liquids was a result of requirements in the EU and the US as is indicated by the restrictions not applying to Australian domestic flights.

That doesn't quite add up. If Australia is just towing the line why do it's liquid regs go further than the EU rules? I'm talking about secondary liquid screening at overseas airports mandated by the Australian govt. The reason why I can't board a flight from HKG-MEL with a bottle of water purchased airside but doing so on a flight to London is no problem. So the lack of any regulations on domestic flights is even more of an anomoly.
 
bcworld
Posts: 148
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 26):
Things are never going to be the same EVER again, the days of travelling and not showing ID, flying under false pretenses, ill gotten tickets are gone.

I travel domestically in Australia all the time without ever showing any ID.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting cam747 (Reply 5):
I don't have a problem with this at all. A pat down search is no where near as effective as a full body scan, so of course someone trying to hide something is going to refuse a full body scan. Giving people an option of refusal makes the whole system useless.

That is completely untrue. The full body scanners have been proven to be easy to trick. In fact the US Congress described them as: "easily thwarted". A pat-down given correctly is much more accurate.

Here's a good example of AIT FAIL:
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/TSA...-Scanner-With-a-Gun-116497568.html
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
markcaine
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:33 pm

Hi. My first post on A.net and probably going to get some stick for it.

I work in the field of security and you normally get two arguments when people who refuse to go through a body scanner.

1. Invasion of privacy or human rights or whatever you do gooders want to call it

Personally I can't see the problem of being scanned. Having have to get searched myself on occasions whilst going into work, I feel being hand searched is an invasion of my personal space and having my bags checked is an invasion of my personal property but accept it as that's what keeps people safe. I would much rather be scanned However finding weapons by hand is not as easy as you think especially if a "terrorist" wanted to get it through. They're going to hide it in the most difficult places where if you did find it people would cry assault. My point is that being scanned or frisked they are doing exactly the same thing and being scanned is actually quicker therefore reducing waiting times(another gripe of many people.)

2. Radiation

My annoyance is that our great EU who can't decide how to solve a debt crisis come out and say they're not safe, even before they have done the research. The HPA state that backscatter x-rays omit around 0.03 microsieverts per scan. You would receive this dose walking round everyday life for about an hour. What people fail to understand is you actually get the same dose every minute you fly at 35000 ft. So if your on a transatlantic flight your gonna get a lot of radiation doseage. I was told by a very good source that you could go through one everyday for a year and it still wouldn't be as a high doseage for a trip from London to Paris.

Your thoughts please
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:47 pm

Quoting markcaine (Reply 70):
1. Invasion of privacy or human rights or whatever you do gooders want to call it

Personally I can't see the problem of being scanned. Having have to get searched myself on occasions whilst going into work, I feel being hand searched is an invasion of my personal space and having my bags checked is an invasion of my personal property but accept it as that's what keeps people safe. I would much rather be scanned However finding weapons by hand is not as easy as you think especially if a "terrorist" wanted to get it through. They're going to hide it in the most difficult places where if you did find it people would cry assault. My point is that being scanned or frisked they are doing exactly the same thing and being scanned is actually quicker therefore reducing waiting times(another gripe of many people.)

Those "Do gooders" as you call them were people who founded democracy and ensured that it is the people who run a country and not a rogue government. One of the ways in which they tried to ensure this was a system of individual rights.

You do NOT have a right to virtually strip search me. It is that simple. It is at MY discretion whether you are allowed to do this, and any suggestion that it is not is a contravention of basic law.

This whole lark of protecting people is nonsense.

Terrorists could blow up a train. Could blow up a Tram. Could blow up a tube. Could blow up a bus. In fact, terrorists have in the past done ALL of these things. Yet, we do not have inane security theatre at out rail stations, tram and tube platforms or bus stops.

Why is this? Because people just would not tolerate it. Yet for some reason, being blown out of the sky seems to be more emotive for most people than being blown up on the street - so, they put up with it. Of course, being able to "secure" international travel confers so many other benefits too that have nothing to do with passenger safety, and everything to do with customs and revenue enforcement.
 
HAWAIIAN932
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:50 pm

Personally, I don't have a problem with it. I live in LAS and have had the body scan done to me when taking flights to SEA and ONT. I just do what they want and get myself on the plane. I respect everyone's own opinion on the subject. I was just voiceing mine.
 
Wsp
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:16 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 65):
I stand by my comment that it is a far cheaper option for governments to circumvent your rights by a virtual strip search, than to invest in the necessary tools to accurately assess the risk of every airline passenger.

But that accepts the narrative that additional assessments are needed or effective.
 
deconz
Posts: 153
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:14 pm

RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 62):
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 55):
Same applies to APIS data. In response to requirements elsewhere flights originating in Australia have to supply copious amounts of details about travellers arriving into other countries. Is this also not "forcing" Australia to adopt rules of other countries?

I was simply asking if the originating flights from countries other than Australia will have to adhere to this policy. Thereby creating additional requirements for every country that has non-stop service to Australia.
I believe here in the US it would involve re-screening everyone prior to boarding the non-stop to Australia similar to the visa check that is performed today. Example, I can fly from ORD-SFO-SYD, but they do not always check your visa into Australia until SFO.

Yes, the USA has mandated many policies that some/many/etc have found to be intrusive, but this is not about the US.

Hmmmmm so secondary screening like the US have enforced on all direct flights TO the USA from abroad isn't the same sort of thing in reverse? Come off it, the US have lead the pack when it comes to annoying extra steps, be it manditory secondary screen of all inbound flights to dreaming up APIS.

For the record I'm all for these scanners - speed up the process for goodness sake!!!
 
JonasJ
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:27 pm

The problem with doses when talking about radiation is that you most often give the effective dose which give you an estimate on the risk of cancer of the whole body. So your skin might receive a relatively high dose, while the effective dose is still low (Back scatter x-ray are suppose to have really low energies, which means inner organs receives a low dose). Im really interested in seeing more raw-data from these scanners and Im very glad EU is playing safe rather than sorry. If the scanners prove "safe", then use them.

In my field, Medical Physics, a great deal of work goes into optimizing equipment and scanners. We always try to save dose where possible, while maintaining diagnostic performance (eg. Radiologists can still do their job). More and more non-radiation alternatives are becoming available (Ultra-sound, MRI etc) which can sometimes replace conventional x-ray. The thing with full-body scanners is, AFAIK, the millimeter-wave scanner is just as effective as the back scatter x-ray ones. To me it seems natural to shift towards a non-ionizing radiation option....
JonasJ
 
Sydscott
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting bcworld (Reply 67):
So the lack of any regulations on domestic flights is even more of an anomoly.

I like to think of it more as common sense. The Government has taken the approach that if we properly screen people coming into Australia then we do not need acrane rules for Domestic flights. The same approach dictates good intelligence of home grown threats, identification of targets and early arrests of suspects. Realistically the theat of terrorism on Australian domestic flights is negligible, we all know it and the regulations are designed to be common sense where if there are threats the Police have got to them long before they get to the airports. Besides which how crappy would you be at buying all of that Barossa Valley, Yarra Valley or Margaret River Wine only to be told you can't take it on your Domestic Flight?

Quoting bcworld (Reply 68):
I travel domestically in Australia all the time without ever showing any ID.

If anything is to change it's going to be that. The ability to travel without showing any ID whatsoever is the anomoly in the Australian system and the Senate is already considering how to tighten that. In my opinion, and its only my opinion, I think that if you aren't required to show ID at checkin, which on Qantas Domestic you basically don't, then you should be required to show ID at the gate that matches your boarding card/Frequent Flyer Card. I think that's a sensible reform that shouldn't add too much to costs for airlines.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 60):
ok AUSTRALIA off the list... from my places to go now.

I wouldn't worry about it just yet. The legislation is not yet even in Parliament and, despite what some may think and even though Anthony Albanese is a complete idiot, there are some sensible people in Parliament who will question this.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting Wsp (Reply 73):
But that accepts the narrative that additional assessments are needed or effective.

Not necessarily - i'm merely accepting the narrative that Government will make attempts at a security regime, and have therefore gone for the cheaper, more visible option - I'm not saying that I feel it is necessary, or otherwise.
 
markcaine
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:47 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 71):

They don't have right to strip search you. Ok I frisk you and I believe your carrying drugs or weapons down your pants. You wouldn't leave the search area until I found out what you've got. So practically I'm going to strip you anyway. Just takes a lot longer and i'm guessing you missed my point what i was trying to say is that airport security is an invasion of privacy, WHICHEVER way you do it.
 
fiscal
Posts: 285
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:47 pm

RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:47 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 29):
On Australian domestic flights last year only twice was I NOT singled out for an extra explosive check, so 38/40 times I was. In the USA I wasn't singled out for any additional security at all.

If Australia's security contractors continue to use their existing forms of profiling - "this person is dark, maybe they're an Arab" then this will end in lawsuits I would imagine.

I don't think that is accurate, it is a family joke that I always get the explosives check on leaving Perth, and I do not have any Middle Eastern, or Mediterranean features, or any other distinguishing features for that matter, they probably see my smiling face and say "ah, there's someone who won't mind"

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 63):
I am now exercising my right to avoid having my rights taken away, and avoiding Australia. Shame, because I really like the place....

Fair enough. Some question why I will not fly Emirates, because their country has an appalling record on their treatment of women. There are some issues where we all draw a line in the sand and say no further...
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting markcaine (Reply 78):
They don't have right to strip search you. Ok I frisk you and I believe your carrying drugs or weapons down your pants. You wouldn't leave the search area until I found out what you've got. So practically I'm going to strip you anyway. Just takes a lot longer and i'm guessing you missed my point what i was trying to say is that airport security is an invasion of privacy, WHICHEVER way you do it.

Yeah, that is very true - but there are limits to how I am going to allow you to exercise that invasion, and those limits are, or at least should be, entirely at my discretion. We can do it a quick invasive way, or we can do it a slower, less invasive way. Either way, I am entitled to the choice, it's my body after all!

But - You mentioned something there and it makes me think. We are told this is necessary to protect our lives from terrorists on board aircraft. Why then are you looking for drugs? Or have you just touched on the real motivation for enhanced airport security?  
 
markcaine
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 80):

Well not necessary what they were brought in for but if used correctly you can do security and customs jobs in one swoop. I'm not disagreeing with your argument that your entitled to choose as we live in a democracy, but if something is made law as it has in the UK then there's pretty much nothing you can do about it. I don't want to pay more tax because a load of bankers messed up but it's going to happen whether I like it or not. That's democracy for you. Going back to your earlier comments about why you don't have security in bus stations and the like. If you blow up a bus you might kill 100 or so people plus the cost of a bus £40,000 versus an airplane with upto 500 plus worst case scenario plus whatever it crashes into. Plane costs £80 million each. That's why governments invest at airports. Looking after their investments.  
 
cmf
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:56 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 80):
but there are limits to how I am going to allow you to exercise that invasion, and those limits are, or at least should be, entirely at my discretion. We can do it a quick invasive way, or we can do it a slower, less invasive way. Either way, I am entitled to the choice, it's my body after all!

I am not defending and definitely not endorsing everything about how security is handled but your choices are following the rules or not fly.

Again, I'm not saying the scanners are the way to go but IF it is decided they are then they should be required equally for everyone.

Having done security policies in other environments I can state it is a thankless lose - lose task. When nothing happens everyone will complain that it is too invasive and if something happens the same people will complain that it was too lax.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:18 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 82):
I am not defending and definitely not endorsing everything about how security is handled but your choices are following the rules or not fly.

Says who?

I dont buy this arguement at all - again we are going back to who really runs or owns a country. It is, or so we are told, us - therefore if the rules go beyond what I or a significant number are no longer willing to accept - then we have a problem.
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:02 am

Every once in a while a cow will decide to jump the fence at a slaughterhouse and for it's bravery it's almost always awarded a long and happy life in someone's wonderful pasture .... while all the others get .... well you know. Be the cow who gets away. Stop submitting to this over-the-top fear and grow a pair, you never know it may just change your life for the better.
 
cmf
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:32 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 83):
I dont buy this arguement at all - again we are going back to who really runs or owns a country. It is, or so we are told, us - therefore if the rules go beyond what I or a significant number are no longer willing to accept - then we have a problem.

It is democracy. You have the right to work on getting enough people to support you to have it changed. But as long as they are in place your options are to follow the rules or not fly. You do not get your own set of rules because you don't like them. Democracy 101.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 85):
It is democracy. You have the right to work on getting enough people to support you to have it changed. But as long as they are in place your options are to follow the rules or not fly. You do not get your own set of rules because you don't like them. Democracy 101.

Getting what changed? There is NO law mandating the body scanning of passengers currently in force.

Until there is such legislation, all we have is a few people trying to impose their will on the flying public.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:38 am

And the moment when somebody detonates a bomb on a flight, people will be begging for these scanners to be implemented at every airport.

If it's in the name of security, I'm all for it.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:07 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 87):
And the moment when somebody detonates a bomb on a flight, people will be begging for these scanners to be implemented at every airport.

If it's in the name of security, I'm all for it.

New York Times, 2021:

In the name of security, the US government has decided to ground all flights indefinitely. The UK, Japan, EU and Australian governments followed suit late last night. Commercial aviation is no more in these countries. The rest of the UN nations are likely to follow suit in the next week.

Hey, no flights=no terrorism involving flights! Best anti-terrorist plan "in the name of security" I've ever heard!

Still for it?
 
Av8tor
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:08 am

Great Idea. Every country should have the same rules.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:33 am

Instead of trying to stop terrorism as it happens, why don't we remove the incentives for terrorism? No? Ok I'll leave now...  
 
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mariner
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:33 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 71):
Those "Do gooders" as you call them were people who founded democracy and ensured that it is the people who run a country and not a rogue government.

Australia wasn't founded as a democracy. Some would argue that it only pays lip-service to democracy now.

In many ways, Australia is still run like a convict colony NSW was, with the warders (mostly in Canberra these days) legislating every aspect of our lives and we - the legislated - perpetually more concerned with the beer supply, the beach and our fair shares of fornication.

As a system it works fine, but in many ways, nothing much has changed since the arrival of the First Fleet. This is really only an extension of that.

mariner
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Gemuser
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:49 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 93):
like a convict colony NSW was

And every other state except for South Australia!

Gemuser
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mariner
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:01 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 94):
And every other state except for South Australia!

Yeh, but youse blokes came late to the party. When the First Fleet arrived it was all NSW, there was no South Australia until 1834.  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
777ER
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:26 am

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 8):

Thats the same experience I had in DTW last year. Apparantly I had a piece of paper in my pocket and got a very intrusive pat down as a result when no paper was found after being requested to empty my right pockets.

I certainly don't like the new scanners so guess I would only be visiting Australia is I really need to as its a really nice place. Maybe Austraila's tourism will suffer cause of this
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SA7700
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RE: Australia - Full-body Scans - NO Exceptions

Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:48 am

This thread will be locked is it has been steered into an off-topic debate about convict Australia. Any posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.


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