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Joost
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:03 am

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 91):
Why shouldn't a state help its carrier?

Because it creates unfair competition. It's not fair to other carriers, if one carrier (for example Malev) can use tax payers money to start services, whereas other carriers need to compete without this support.

Imagine this: W6 pays taxes in Hungary. These taxes could go to MA, and so W6 would (indirectly) pay MA for competing against them.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 91):
The EU is responsible for Malev's demise.



These rules were already there when Hungary decided to join the EU. Also, with open skies within Europe, it's necessary to have a level playing field.

To quote the former dutch minister of Finance (after not saving a bank in financial difficulties): "One doesn't drown because he isn't saved. One drowns because he can't swim".

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 97):
Some will and some won't. I can't conclusively say that all business "elites" will stop flying to BUD because there is no premium service but you can't say that every business traveller will hop on FR with a big smile either.

The choice of doing business in a certain country should not depend on the comfort level of the biggest carrier serving that market.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 97):
MA being grounded will hurt Hungary and Budapest.

It is true that infrastructure and available flights, do play a role when looking for locations to start a business. MA's demise makes Budapest less accessible than before.

For business-related travel to the financial capitals of Europe, most cities have services. I do not believe it's the comfort level on board that prevents business travelers from using LCCs. Schedules, airports of choice and reliability of service are important. I referred to GVA before, which has a large easyJet base. EZY/EZS here offers high frequency-services to primary airports (2x daily to AMS, MAD, for example), and all European network carriers offer connections beyond their hubs.

Also, many routes have already been filled in the last 2 weeks. When it comes to the 'business' airports and network carriers:

- LH started HAM and TXL
- A3 to start ATH
- AZ is to start FCO (next to existing W6)

Now, some MA monopoly routes have seen the introduction of LCCs, or only have LCC service now:
- SKG to start by FR
- MAD has W6 and will receive FR
- SOF to start by W6

Most other MA monopoly services where VFR or vacation-orriented (VAR, HER, AGP, etc).

The problem is mostly when it comes to Eastern European and Balkan-routes that are left without service: LED, BEG, SSJ, TIA, ZAG. It might be harder to fill the routes. Indeed, a hub can make it possible to offer non-stop service to some airports, by using connecting passengers, that aren't viable on a pure O&D-basis.
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:36 am

It's been reported over on the Irish thread that all the Malev 736's stored in SNN, are going to depart SNN today to GYR for scrapping.
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:58 am

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 101):
It's been reported over on the Irish thread that all the Malev 736's stored in SNN, are going to depart SNN today to GYR for scrapping.

Yes, I know that 2 have left already for the US this morning. HA-LOJ left SNN at about 8:20am local time and HA-LOF around 9am.
3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
 
krisyyz
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Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:04 pm

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:21 pm

Quoting joost (Reply 100):

The problem is mostly when it comes to Eastern European and Balkan-routes that are left without service: LED, BEG, SSJ, TIA, ZAG. It might be harder to fill the routes. Indeed, a hub can make it possible to offer non-stop service to some airports, by using connecting passengers, that aren't viable on a pure O&D-basis.

For sure, and if MA does restart in some shape or form, those routes will be its backbone routes as the other markets will be swallowed up by LCCs.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 101):
It's been reported over on the Irish thread that all the Malev 736's stored in SNN, are going to depart SNN today to GYR for scrapping.

as was stated by Peet7G, MA's plans were to return the B736s and possibly replace the other 737s with newer models from ILFC. So sending these aircraft for scrapping still doesn't necessary mean much. However if ILFC starts sending the B73Gs and B738s to other carriers or the desert then MA would have to acquire new aircraft to start ops again.

KrisYYZ
 
LJ
Posts: 5378
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 97):

Some will and some won't. I can't conclusively say that all business "elites" will stop flying to BUD because there is no premium service but you can't say that every business traveller will hop on FR with a big smile either. MA being grounded will hurt Hungary and Budapest.

Those "elites" can always charter a private jet if they don't want to be seen in a FR or W6 plane...
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:27 pm

In total six aircraft departed from SNN today bound for the US, they were:

HA-LOD
HA-LOE
HA-LOF
HA-LOG
HA-LOJ
HA-LON

I guess more will be leaving SNN tomorrow I assume... It's sad news!  
3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6264
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:22 pm

Quoting joost (Reply 100):
It's not fair to other carriers, if one carrier (for example Malev) can use tax payers money to start services, whereas other carriers need to compete without this support.

Sort of like when public money are used to subsidize FR's flights to middle-of-nowhere airports?
 
Joost
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:00 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 106):
Sort of like when public money are used to subsidize FR's flights to middle-of-nowhere airports?

There is an important differences:

1) Subsidies that are available for a specific service, available for any carrier willing to offer this service
2) Subsidies that are given to a specific carrier, which are not available for other carriers.

Subsidies under (1) are, under certain conditions, allowed. For example, 'new route' subsidies can only last for 5 years. These are published by airport operators, and available for (and used by!) virtually all European carriers. There are also maximum amounts for subsidies.

For specific route-subsidies, under the PSO-scheme, there is a requirement for tenders.

Subsidies or aid to specific carriers (2) are not allowed, with an exception for (strictly controlled) emergency aid. Basically, the rule here is that governments are allowed to give emergency aid to carriers, but only if the conditions would also be attractive for private parties. Also, it must be demonstrated to be temporary and a recovery plan must exist.

Now, these rules of course can be interpreted in different ways, and both airlines as well as governments are sometimes 'creative' in working around. The European Commission is, however, quite active in researching illegal state aid.

Mind you that the rules for route launch subsidies and airport-provided subsidies, where actually set following the research to Ryanair at CRL. Ryanair was ordered to pay back illegal state aid to the Walloon government. At the time, there were no guidelines for legal / illegal state aid and the rules were defined in the course and aftermath of these research and court cases.

Right now, the EC is performing in-depth research to illegal state aid provided by many airports, which also affect FR:

25 Jan 2012: NRN, AOC, PUF, VST: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=nl

24 May 2011: Research for illegal subsidies for W6 at TSR; subsidies provided by CWL and VCE considered 'legal': http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=fr

When governments are providing rescue money, this is always closely watched by the EC, as by Air Malta (research started): http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

When it comes to aviation, I agree with the free market and fair competition principles as defined in the context of the European Union. Government life-support should not exist here.

I also think that local governments should have the power to make their region attractive for business or tourism, and providing subsidies for aviation (as part of infrastructure) is part of that.

In some occasions, local governments seem to be very willing to spend (much) tax payers money on their airport. Whether it is prestige, pride, over-optimistic expectations, political reasons or whatever, sometimes the money put in airports and airlines seems rather much.

However, in these cases I'd blame the (democratically elected!) governments who decide to provide the subsidies and transfer it into the accounts of airlines, rather than the airlines who are accepting these subsidies. In the end, the decision to provide subsidies is made by governments and airport operators, not the airlines.
 
topgun3
Posts: 260
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:27 am

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:50 am

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 105):

In total six aircraft departed from SNN today bound for the US, they were:

HA-LOD
HA-LOE
HA-LOF
HA-LOG
HA-LOJ
HA-LON

I guess more will be leaving SNN tomorrow I assume... It's sad news!  

Had HA-LOF and HA-LOJ fly over my area on Feb. 14 (CYXU). Anyone know what was the final destination?
I'd rather be flying.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10028
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:27 am

Think that you will find that it is Goodyear, to be parted out.
 
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LOWS
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:37 am

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:45 am

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 91):
Why shouldn't a state help its carrier? The EU is responsible for Malev's demise.

Because in the Single Market, certain state subsidies can distort the market. If MA got illegal subsidies, that gives them an edge over LH, OK, OS, etc. Thus, that distorts the operation of the single market which defeats the whole point.

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 96):
Can they resume some flight, at least to neighboring countries such as Croatia, Serbia, Austria, Romania?

I doubt BUD-VIE would be a good idea. The Austrian Federal Railway (ÖBB) operate a frequent high-speed service between Vienna and Budapest with good onward connections to the airport, Graz, Salzburg, Klagenfurt, etc.
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:48 am

Quoting topgun3 (Reply 108):
Had HA-LOF and HA-LOJ fly over my area on Feb. 14 (CYXU). Anyone know what was the final destination?
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 109):
Think that you will find that it is Goodyear, to be parted out.

Yup they were flown to Goodyear, Arizona via Bangor.
3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
 
B738FlyUIA
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:20 pm

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:23 am

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 111):
Yup they were flown to Goodyear, Arizona via Bangor.

A real pity about the way they have to go now!!! But I wonder about the cost of them all flying from BUD to SNN and now further to GYR who will pay for this???
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:19 am

Quoting B738FlyUIA (Reply 112):
A real pity about the way they have to go now!!! But I wonder about the cost of them all flying from BUD to SNN and now further to GYR who will pay for this???

Yes it is a shame, the aircraft are only 9 years old! The aircraft were only flown by Malev but owned by a US leasing company, so I guess the lessor pays for the flights.
3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:04 pm

Budapest airport announced that it will have to fire about 250 employees and will postpone all the planned projects for 2012.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10028
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:39 pm

I understand that they had a single CRJ200ER, (HA-LNA).

What I do not understand is why just 1 aircraft.

Also it is not clear what has happened to it.
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 115):
I understand that they had a single CRJ200ER, (HA-LNA).

What I do not understand is why just 1 aircraft.

Also it is not clear what has happened to it.

It seems as they had another three CRJ-200's: HA-LNB, HA-LNC, HA-LND. They went to other airlines, and it says that HA-LNA is stored.

Also they had a CRJ-100 also (HA-LNX).
3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
 
Akiestar
Posts: 970
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 6:51 am

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:04 pm

I saw this while browsing through Facebook. I wonder how many people turned out to march for Malév in BUD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tni48AlwHBU
 
bennett123
Posts: 10028
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:24 pm

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-crj-7032.htm

According to airfleets, the CRJ100 was operated briefly in 2002.
 
krisyyz
Posts: 1303
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:04 pm

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting akiestar (Reply 117):
I saw this while browsing through Facebook. I wonder how many people turned out to march for Malév in BUD.

There are conflicting reports as is usual. Some media sources said "hundreds" while other said "thousands" were in attendance.

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 116):
and it says that HA-LNA is stored.

I wonder what will happen to LNA and LHB, perhaps the B762 could meet the same faith as the B736s or perhaps it could be converted for cargo ops. I personally would love to see both at the Airpark museum at BUD, however that probably won't happen.




KrisYYZ
 
fpetrutiu
Posts: 745
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 pm

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting topgun3 (Reply 108):
In total six aircraft departed from SNN today bound for the US, they were:

HA-LOD
HA-LOE
HA-LOF
HA-LOG
HA-LOJ
HA-LON

I guess more will be leaving SNN tomorrow I assume... It's sad news!

Looks like they are scrapping the entire Malev 737-600 fleet. I doubt they had any interest for leasing deals, or purchase, for these birds. Sad day for sure, they had plenty of life left in them, but the balance of value tipped toward "Worth more in parts"...
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: Malev Ceases Operation Part 2

Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:41 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 120):
Looks like they are scrapping the entire Malev 737-600 fleet.

Yeah, they are worth more being parted out than being sold intact to another airline. Shame it has to end that way!  
Quoting krisyyz (Reply 119):
I wonder what will happen to LNA and LHB, perhaps the B762 could meet the same faith as the B736s or perhaps it could be converted for cargo ops. I personally would love to see both at the Airpark museum at BUD, however that probably won't happen.

Im sure LNA can be easily picked up by another airline. I do agree it would be nice to see LHB at the museum in BUD, but if it doesn't get scrapped I could see it going cargo like you say.

Amerijet and ABX use cargo 762's currently in their fleets, would be nice if LHB ended up there.

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Also isn't Fedex getting some 767's? Not sure if they are only picking up 300's though.
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