Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
lax888
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:55 am

Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:11 pm

I was wondering the other day when flying BA Club World (77W) for the first time why other airlines did not copy this concept?

I flew LH (744), TG (A346 & 744), CX (77W & 744), US (lie-flat on B762), SK (A343) and LX (old lie-flat seat on A343) and felt that except for CX it was weird why they still had lie-flat seats when BA has had fully flat seats for more than ten years. Also with eight seats in a row you get two extra business class seats in comparison to the other carriers and still have a flat bed to sleep in. So is that design somehow protected and other airlines cannot use it or what is the reason behind this? I myself would rather fly backwards and have a flat seat instead of those seats where you slide down after a few hours.

I think the only other airline who adopted something similar is United which also has eight seats on their 777 and 747. However I find their concept weird with having four seats all facing the same direction. The good thing about BA is that the two middle seats facing backwards are great when traveling with a partner or good friend as one has almost a small private suite. The only negative about BA's seat is that one has to step above someone else when trying to get out. However in general the layout is pretty intelligent. Of course CX is even better allowing every passenger direct aisle access, however I felt the seat was not always 100% even in the fully flat position but of course it was something minor which was solved by laying the duvet on the seat like a mini mattress.

Anyway coming back to my question: What is unattractive about BA's Club World seating which prevented other airlines to follow a similar concept?
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2292
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:39 pm

I hate the BA business class seats...they feel cheap and cramped and I don't like looking up a stranger's nose during take off and landing.

The fully flat seats of DL/CX/SQ/CO/US/AC/NZ....are far superior.

I think BA also patented their layout.
 
ORD2PHL
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:15 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:54 pm

Having just flown ORD-LHR-BLR-LHR-ORD all in Club World I was a bit underwhelmed by the seat itself. It really feels a bit cramped and coffin like and despite the divider I really don't enjoy being forced to look at the person beside me.

I did however like the experience a whole lot more on the upper deck of the 747 on the LHR-BLR-LHR legs, quiet cabin and 4 abreast is much more conducive to this layout.

ORD2PHL
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting LAX888 (Thread starter):
What is unattractive about BA's Club World seating

Many people don't like sitting backwards. And in my experience, if you're in the window seats on BA (which all face backwards), meal and drink service is awkward. And having to climb over the adjacent passenger's legs is inconvenient. The 8-abreast layout also seems to make the cabin seem quite crowded (when Y class on BA 777s only has one more seat abreast).

Personally, I prefer the LX-type of staggered J class seating with all seats facing forward. DL also now starting to use that type of seat.
http://www.swiss.com/web/EN/fly_swis...ircraft/Pages/airbus_a330_300.aspx

That gives almost all passengers direct aisle access (only 5 of 45 LX J seats on the A333 and 5 of 47 on the A343 lack direct aisle access). And seats in the 5 pairs of window seats are good for 2 passengers travelling together. If I was flying with another person I would much prefer a pair of forward-facing window seats on LX than being trapped in the middle of the cabin in backward-facing seats on BA and having to climb over another passengers legs to leave your seat. The LX configuration also permits seats to be installed with less seat pitch than BA since your legs fit in the space created by the staggered layout in the row in front. The wide tables beside the seats are also handy. The overall layout seems more spacious than the BA J configuration.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7473
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:52 am

When BA gets A380's they should follow the Cathay J class seats and forget about facing backwards or use what they have learned on the A318 from LCY to JFK.
 
fiscal
Posts: 285
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:47 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:55 am

At the time, as a concept for the number of seats they wanted, they did well. They are comfortable, but they do have those two annoyances, looking at the passenger next to you on take off and landing, and the climb over someone if you are in a window seat.

I have tried most other J class types, but I have yet to experience the EY J class, which has a staggered arrangement of 2-3-2 (if I remember correctly), but window seats do not require you to climb over anyone. They do, however, accommodate less seats than CW would, but their arrangement is a point of difference I suppose.
 
CXB77L
Posts: 2613
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:18 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:39 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
Personally, I prefer the LX-type of staggered J class seating with all seats facing forward. DL also now starting to use that type of seat.
http://www.swiss.com/web/EN/fly_swis....aspx

Likewise.

The way I see it, staggered J is the best layout there is, short of doing what SQ and CX are doing with just four seats abreast. If I'm flying in J, I'd like to face forwards, and I'd like to have direct aisle access. 4-abreast layout allows this, as does staggered seating that LX, NH and EY have. To me, that configuration is far superior to BA's ClubWorld.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
ba319-131
Posts: 8321
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:27 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:45 am

Quoting LAX888 (Thread starter):
The only negative about BA's seat is that one has to step above someone else when trying to get out.

- This is a problem with mist JCL seats when sat in a window or KL's middle seat for example.
111 732 733 734 735 736 73G 738 739,7M8 BBJ 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 764 772 77L 773 77W L15 D10 D30 D40 AB3 AB6 312 313 318 319 320 20N 321 21N 332 333 342 343 345 346 359 351 388 CS1 CS3 I86 154 SSJ CRJ CR7 CR9 CRK 145 170 175 220
 
HUYfan
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 9:38 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:11 am

I may be wrong but I thought that the divider screens only had to be down for the safety demo? I don't think they have to be for take-off and landing.

Kind regards

Mike
 
lax888
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:55 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:14 am

Quoting ORD2PHL (Reply 2):
I really don't enjoy being forced to look at the person beside me.



I am not sure on the rules, however I remember reading on the placard that the divider only has to be down for the safety video or something. Therefore I had the divider up as soon as the video was finished and before we took off. I was not the only person doing this. So the only time I saw the other person was for 10-15min whilst we were boarding and preparing for take off.

I guess my question was a bit misunderstood. Most of the airlines which offer a better product now have not had that product when BA introduced the New Club World. So I just wondered why so many airlines around 3-4 years ago still installed lie-flat seats with only 6 seats in one row instead of offering a fully flat bed with 8 seats in a row? I guess I am looking at this more from an airline's perspective and not from a passenger perspective. Of course for a passenger the less seats in a row the better.
 
bastew
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:29 am

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 8):
I may be wrong but I thought that the divider screens only had to be down for the safety demo? I don't think they have to be for take-off and landing.

This is correct.

The dividers only have to be down during the safety demonstration to enable all passengers to see a member of crew point out he exits.

They do not need to be down for take off or landing.
 
starguy
Posts: 260
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:44 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:41 am

BAs config is patented so no other airline is allowed to use it without permission. My personal experience of the cabin is mixed. Comfortable seat, not so comfortable bed. I hate having to face the person next to me but also hate not being able to see a window during takeoff and landing if the screen is up and I'm sat in the middle seat. I was travelling alone and had to endure sleeping side by side with a total stranger, those intimate moments in the middle of the night where you realise that it's not your wife that you're spooning but a 15 stone businessman made for a rather uncomfortable and embarrassing breakfast!
I would rather the staggered, herringbone, or reverse herringbone configs of EY, EK, CX, DL, VS, NZ, SQ etc as most businessmen are either travelling alone or wouldn't particularly care about being able to chat to colleagues during the flight.
 
OEH68
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:04 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:43 am

I love the privacy of BA's CW window seats.
I prefer to look into the face of another person for ten minutes over engaging in a forced coversation with a complete stranger for hours.
OEH68
 
tcxdegsy
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:47 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:46 am

I personally always go for the Window seat. You feel like you're in your own little cabin and you don't really notice much of a difference sitting backwards.

The only minor niggle is the meal service... Crew are not always consistent in the service. Most pop around the back of the front facing seat to serve you, but some serve over the top of the aisle seat and through the divider gap. Not good for the aisle passenger.

I like the quiet nature of the window seat. And let's face it, whilst it can be an inconvenience to step over someone's legs, most of the time you're seated, you may only need to get up and out twice in the flight. Not that much of an issue really
next flights: BA1441 0566 0581 1446 EDI-LHR-MXP-LHR-EDI
 
HUYfan
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 9:38 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:51 am

The standard in CW is to always serve window seats through the divider. Due to health and safety regulations, serving 'around the end' is not good for your body. I do understand that is can be a little tedious, but at the end of the day, our personal health comes before inconveniencing customers. There is simply too much twisting and contorting of the body involved, and who will pay medical bills in 20 years' time, certainly not BA or our customers.

Kind regards

Mike
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:54 am

Well..they've stuck with it so most customers must like it. How many times now has VS for example messed about with its Upper Class or quite a few other airlines for that matter.

Considering the importance of Club World to British Airways and the products' necessity to be competitive with the vast amount of competition at LHR I think BA would have changed the lay-out if it had proved unpopular.

Plus the fact that their fleet needs to be able to accomodate a higher percentage of J seats per aircraft than other airlines.

When Concorde was retired there were for a while several 744's floating about on LHR-JFK with 100+ Club World seats until the schedules could be rebalanced.

This is the major airline that operates out of capacity restricted premium-laden LHR.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:02 am

personally I can't quite grasp some of the dislikes of CW. I have zero problem with flying backwards, my wife however expressed an opinion that she was adamant that she wouldn't like it, and it would probably make her ill. Guess who I found in my nice backward facing window seat ? did I get it back ? No

I just wonder how many people who state that they hate these backward seats have actually used them ?

Then we have the situation of the middle pair of seats, yes they are less than ideal for single travellers, however in many of the mentioned business layouts with all forward facing seats you get to sleep in close proximity to a 15 stone business man in any event.

Then we have the stepping over the feet complaint, but thats common to all business layouts apart from herringbone.

Lastly if you can see up the nose of the passenger opposite, your seat isn't in the correct position for take off and landing !!

I will agree that some of the CW seats aren't as good as herringbone for the solo traveller, however CW is generally better for groups, and you do have a chance of some window gazing.
 
lax888
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:55 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:29 am

Quoting starguy (Reply 11):
BAs config is patented so no other airline is allowed to use it without permission.

Thanks for the info.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 16):

I agree with your comments and I think the Club World seat is a good product and miles better than other carriers who still have lie-flat seats installed when BA already has flat seats for ages.
 
slinky09
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:03 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:20 pm

Don't like flying backwards, and I don't like the face contact, climbing over passengers, crew handing other peoples' meals and drinks across my face ... much prefer all aisle access like VS, AC, NZ, 9W, CX etc.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 15):
Well..they've stuck with it so most customers must like it. How many times now has VS for example messed about with its Upper Class or quite a few other airlines for that matter.

How many times since UC was launched in 2004 has VS messed about with the UCS again Mikey?
 
starguy
Posts: 260
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:44 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:21 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 15):
How many times now has VS for example messed about with its Upper Class

Actually, not once since it was introduced in 2003 other than a change to the padding on the bed. It's been a very popular product for both VS and NZ.
An updated Upper Class Suite is due to be released in the coming months.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 15):
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 18):
Don't like flying backwards, and I don't like the face contact, climbing over passengers, crew handing other peoples' meals and drinks across my face ... much prefer all aisle access like VS, AC, NZ, 9W, CX etc.

British Airways has made significant investments in its long-haul premium cabins in recent years, an effort which was undertaken in the wake of the global financial crisis which hurt premium-reliant carriers such as BA and there were question marks over whether previously-seen levels of corporate travel would return. London is the world’s largest premium and corporate travel market and understandably holds particular significance for British Airways. The bet paid off, with premium traffic increasing “substantially” more than non-premium, which has bolstered unit revenues and yields.

Indeed they are out performing by some margin their nearest rivals.

Lecturing BA on its business class product is like lecturing BMW on how to build cars.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
starguy
Posts: 260
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:44 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:03 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 20):
Lecturing BA on its business class product is like lecturing BMW on how to build cars.

So lets just close down the topic then, or maybe just the forum. We are all entitled to an opinion and baring in mind the original post was questioning why other airlines don't copy BAs CW, I feel that our responses are relevant and on topic.
 
bastew
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:20 pm

I think people have to remember that BA was the first airline to launch a fully flat bed in Business Class in 2001. This was using the current ying/yang layout. When the design was first announced people were amazed...and not in a good way. People would NEVER put up with flying backwards was the most often comment. Yet BA has stuck with the same overall design for 10+ years now.

After BA's 'ying yang' heringbone came about. It is a popular product but bear in mind it isn't for all. Many don't like that it is not suitable for those that are not travelling solo. That you often are looking out into the aisle and other people facing you. And that it is difficult to see out of the window. Cathay Pacific had to come up with its current J class product after only a very short period of the J class herringbone it set up as it was so unpopular.

More recently, designers have been more daring and forward thinking with staggered seating configurations etc.

Seating configurations are totally down to taste. My favourite seats on BA in CW are the two middle seats (E & F) if I am travelling with my partner or if there is an empty seat next to me. It is literally like a double cabin. If I am flying solo I love the window seats. Flying backwards does not bother me and I enjoy the cocooned feel. Yet others would find it claustrophobic. And each to their own.

However it remains that the ying yang configuration has been a great success for BA. So much so that it is unlikely the configuration will change on the A380's coming next year. BA design manager Peter Cooke has gone on record in this months 'Business Traveller' magazine. The article mentions:
'He says that when the airline takes delivery of its first A380 in 2013, it will "use most of the same seat product but evolve the space around it to give more space back to the passenger". The superjumbo will also feature a refreshed Club World product'.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting starguy (Reply 21):
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 20):
Lecturing BA on its business class product is like lecturing BMW on how to build cars.


So lets just close down the topic then, or maybe just the forum. We are all entitled to an opinion and baring in mind the original post was questioning why other airlines don't copy BAs CW, I feel that our responses are relevant and on topic.

Yes and I agree wholeheartedly but seeing as everyone 'did' copy the 'seat turning into a bed thing' in which BA was the first I fail to understand the criticism in the detail.

Imitation has always been the finest form of flattery. The proof is the remarkable effort airlines go to when trying to compete with BA Club World ex LHR. Look at VS.

[Edited 2012-02-10 06:39:09]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
User avatar
Jetlagged
Posts: 2564
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:00 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:12 pm

I actually prefer flying in a rearwards facing seat, and completely agree with those who say the rear facing window seats are the best in the BA cabin. I'd rather step over the person next to me than be in the aisle seat and have them step over me. Etiquette with the dividing screen can be awkward. The real downside for me is the crowded cabin, packed in like sardines. It is quite claustrophobic when lying flat too. Reminds me of being in a hospital bed with the screens round, only with less space.  

I far prefer Virgin's Upper Class layout and seat. The only slight problem with it is the awkward neck-straining view out of the windows from the angled seats. Not that that's a problem in cruise.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting starguy (Reply 21):
I feel that our responses are relevant and on topic.

Not really. Judging from your posts in the past you favour VS. Just as slinky09 does. Not a problem but......

At least I always try and be positive except when others are unduly critical.

The motive of others has to be questioned when on a.net we witness the attempted trashing of a tried and tested, decade old and globally successful product/brand like British Airways Club World. It's obvious so don't insult our intelligence with anything else.

Quoting starguy (Reply 11):
I was travelling alone and had to endure sleeping side by side with a total stranger, those intimate moments in the middle of the night where you realise that it's not your wife that you're spooning but a 15 stone businessman made for a rather uncomfortable and embarrassing breakfast!

You will find yourself sleeping in very close quarters to other people on all airlines. You could argue that anyone who suffers from that level of agoraphobia has no business being on an aircraft in the first place. Indeed one would positively have a nervous breakdown in economy !!
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
GT4EZY
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:35 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:46 pm

Whilst I'm not completely in disagreement regarding some of the 'downfalls' of club world I am quite saddened at the fact that people actually dislike having to make eye contact or even looking at another person in the seat next to them on take off and landing.

I'm not entirely sure whether these views are very representative outside of the a.net bubble.
Proud to fly from Manchester!
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting LAX888 (Thread starter):
The only negative about BA's seat is that one has to step above someone else when trying to get out.

I'm willing to bet this is probably the MAIN reason some carriers haven't adopted to BA's way.
 
slinky09
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:03 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 23):
Imitation has always been the finest form of flattery. The proof is the remarkable effort airlines go to when trying to compete with BA Club World ex LHR. Look at VS.

Actually Mikey in this one you are wrong (and you didn't answer my question after your proclamation about VS changing UCS) - Virgin did not copy BA in the seat, they went for two things entirely different - all aisle access, and a bed that comes from the backside of the seat, not a reclining one. That's not imitation it's innovation - and to use your comment, NZ copied (because they licensed the same design) and others took the same herringbone format because they couldn't license VS's patented design (such as CX, AC, 9W etc.).

I think BA is great in First, but that's about it. Others have a far superiod WT+ product and I am fortunate not to have travellend in economy long haul for a while.
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:08 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting fiscal (Reply 5):
I have tried most other J class types, but I have yet to experience the EY J class, which has a staggered arrangement of 2-3-2 (if I remember correctly), but window seats do not require you to climb over anyone.

EY is 2-4-2 which makes it very tight. On the 330/340s both the aisle is very narrow. Also, the middle seats are "cosy", perhaps a little too "cosy" unless you are travelling with someone else.

That said, I think their seats are excellent - especially the slightly newer version that they are rolling out.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
or use what they have learned on the A318 from LCY to JFK.

I haven't flown on the 318s, but those seats do look less private than those on the rest of the fleet. Can anyone who has flown the two layouts comment?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
Many people don't like sitting backwards. And in my experience, if you're in the window seats on BA (which all face backwards),

And many people like sitting backwards. I always have a preference to sit backwards (even on trains) due to the safety benefits of sitting backwards.

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 26):
I am quite saddened at the fact that people actually dislike having to make eye contact or even looking at another person in the seat next to them on take off and landing.

I think it is disgraceful...and probably says something about those making that criticism. In Club World I normally smile and say "hello" or something to the person opposite and then carry on reading my newspaper / magazine. I hardly notice that they are there and I guess being a social person I quite like the subconscious knowledge of their presence.
 
chimborazo
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:11 pm

And if the worst should happen... I'm led to believe being seated backwards is the safest (hence the military often using rear-facing seats).

Never flown club world as I have to pay my own way, it seems pretty good, IF you're on an aisle seat. I really dislike the idea of having to clamber over someone who is laying down.

Having said that, I actually like WT or WT+, I'm a people watcher by nature so like to sit and the back and watch what's going on as PTV doesn't hold my attention for longer than 20 mins. Wouldn't appreciate the "cocoon" so much- although would love to be able to lay down!

Side note: it always amazes me what an absolute dump the business class cabin looks when traipsing through after a long-haul- everything appears to have just been dumped on the floor.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 28):
Actually Mikey in this one you are wrong (and you didn't answer my question after your proclamation about VS changing UCS) - Virgin did not copy BA in the seat, they went for two things entirely different - all aisle access, and a bed that comes from the backside of the seat, not a reclining one. That's not imitation it's innovation - and to use your comment, NZ copied (because they licensed the same design) and others took the same herringbone format because they couldn't license VS's patented design (such as CX, AC, 9W etc.).

The lie-flat concept was copied by any self-respecting airline (including VS) and the original was the award-winning Club World cabin featuring the world's first fully flat bed.

In 1999, BA CEO Rober Ayling announced a £600 million ($1.09 billion) cabin makeover, including lie-flat beds in business class and suites in first class, all at the expense of the number of low-yield economy seats.

The cabin makeover contributed to a dramatic reversal of fortune, with BA turning losses of £21 million in 1999 into profits of £114 million a year later.

This high-yield strategy was maintained by incoming CEO Rod Eddington and has been adopted by more and more network carriers ever since !!

The new configuration was so important to BA that after 9/11 when massive cost-cutting was on the agenda, Eddington refused to slow or abandon the £600 million makeover.It was a critical part of BA's return to profitability and they continued to implement it with vigor.

Around the globe, legacy carriers have reduced their reliance on price-sensitive economy class passengers.

The move away from economy class today is mirroring the trend launched by BA over a decade ago.

Just look at configs of the A380 for proof.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting Chimborazo (Reply 30):
Never flown club world as I have to pay my own way,

Maybe some people just have more money than you ? Fact of life kiddo...doesn't mean they're not paying their own way.

Quoting Chimborazo (Reply 30):
Having said that, I actually like WT or WT+, I'm a people watcher by nature so like to sit and the back and watch what's going on

So you're a voyeur ! (just kidding)

Quoting Chimborazo (Reply 30):
Side note: it always amazes me what an absolute dump the business class cabin looks when traipsing through after a long-haul- everything appears to have just been dumped on the floor.

What used to amaze me is that you could practically throw a Bloody Mary over a First class passenger and they would take it completely in their stride (the very wealthy don't seem to give a sh*t about anything) whilst in Business class a passenger would virtually have a foul mouthed breakdown if you ran out of Chateauneuf du Pape.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
starguy
Posts: 260
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:44 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 25):
Not really. Judging from your posts in the past you favour VS. Just as slinky09 does. Not a problem but......

At least I always try and be positive except when others are unduly critical.

The motive of others has to be questioned when on a.net we witness the attempted trashing of a tried and tested, decade old and globally successful product/brand like British Airways Club World.

I do favour VS when it comes to Business Class and Premium Economy because I believe on the whole that VSs J and W cabins are better. Unlike some who comment without even having experienced the product themselves, I have been lucky enough to have travelled in every class at both BA and VS. BA have a clean cut product, which on the whole is consistent. Their route network and frequency is the envy of many world airlines and I'm not knocking the company as a whole, I am not a member of a milage programme which would lock in my loyalty to either, so my opinion is based purely on the product.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 25):
You will find yourself sleeping in very close quarters to other people on all airlines. You could argue that anyone who suffers from that level of agoraphobia has no business being on an aircraft in the first place. Indeed one would positively have a nervous breakdown in economy !!

Close quarters does not bother me, touching in the middle of the night when in a bed does. VS/NZ/CX/SQ/DL/US herringbone config does not allow this as the individual seats are separated by a fixed wall.

As much as you may have a preference for BA's CW as many do, the fact still remains that it does not offer unrestricted aisle access for 50% of the seats, nor does it offer the privacy that I prefer from some other offerings out there, which is the original point that I was making. No BA bashing, no hatred of BA, just a personal preference.

I don't believe that there is such a thing as a perfect airline, or a perfect seat for that matter. Every airline has pros and cons depending on who you ask.
 
spkyflyer
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:20 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:31 pm

Because its crap. Cathay new biz is the go
 
scrappy27
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:18 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting LAX888 (Reply 9):
I may be wrong but I thought that the divider screens only had to be down for the safety demo? I don't think they have to be for take-off and landing.

correct, and theres even a small sticker on the divider screen that says so
 
scrappy27
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:18 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting tcxdegsy (Reply 13):
The only minor niggle is the meal service... Crew are not always consistent in the service. Most pop around the back of the front facing seat to serve you, but some serve over the top of the aisle seat and through the divider gap. Not good for the aisle passenger.

officially crew are trained to serve thru the divider screen and not around the back of a seat.. for manual handling reasons...you'd be surprised at how many injuries have occurred by this stretching around the seat motion.
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 1041
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:44 pm

There's no doubt that the CW design makes for a very high seating density.

But, financially, consider that BA can have up to 70 Club World seats on a 747. Add to that 14 First Class seats on a 747, and 30 World Traveller Plus seats on a 70J 747, that's a level of premium seat capacity way above many other carriers.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting starguy (Reply 33):
I do favour VS when it comes to Business Class and Premium Economy because I believe on the whole that VSs J and W cabins are better.

Indeed. They should be much much better than they are given the size of the VS operation.

Maybe their selection of only the most profitable routes allows them to provide only a 'similar' product to BA and still make just about enough money to survive on ?

VS and BA fulfil two totally different purposes at LHR.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 37):
There's no doubt that the CW design makes for a very high seating density.

But, financially, consider that BA can have up to 70 Club World seats on a 747. Add to that 14 First Class seats on a 747, and 30 World Traveller Plus seats on a 70J 747, that's a level of premium seat capacity way above many other carriers.

Exactly and for an airline like BA that is based at an airport like LHR that's a compromise well worth making.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
chimborazo
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:31 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 32):
Maybe some people just have more money than you ? Fact of life kiddo...doesn't mean they're not paying their own way

The point I was making Daddio is that I don't need to use Club (can't sleep on a plane, just like the idea of laying down rather than sitting up) so can't justify it- not that I can't afford it.

Apologies if it came across as assuming business was always paid for by someone else in some kind of envy way- not what I meant at all!

Funnily enough though, just a couple of days ago I was looking at flying LCY-JFK on a 24hr turn-round just to experience the Babybus and City airport- paid for by a few "viagra" miles and a couple of quid.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 32):
Chateauneuf du Pape

Lovely stuff  
 
ghifty
Posts: 906
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:12 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:34 am

Well, someone already said it was copyrighted, but I don't think that's the only factor.

The idea of travelling backwards, in any mode of transportation, is not so appealing to many people. I'd rather face forward and my mother gets sick moving "backwards." Airlines are probably skeptical to introduce this kind of seating, for that very reason.

If people are fine with travelling backwards, I doubt they want to face their seatmate.

Quoting LAX888 (Thread starter):
I think the only other airline who adopted something similar is United which also has eight seats on their 777 and 747. However I find their concept weird with having four seats all facing the same direction.

UA's seating is ridiculously awkward. Four in a row? How does the middle get out? At least you can buy the entire row.. and have your own United SkyBed! Get it, United? 
Fly Delta (Wid)Jets

Comments made here reflect only my personal opinions.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:44 pm

Quoting ghifty (Reply 40):
The idea of travelling backwards, in any mode of transportation, is not so appealing to many people. I'd rather face forward and my mother gets sick moving "backwards." Airlines are probably skeptical to introduce this kind of seating, for that very reason.

Most European trains have facing seats. I've noticed that when passengers are in the rear-facing seats on a train that's quite full, and the train stops at a station and the passengers in the forward-facing seats across from them get off, in the majority of cases the backwards-facing passenger gets up and moves to the now vacant forward-facing seat, rather than continuing the trip facing backwards.
 
cubastar
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:48 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:54 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 1):
I hate the BA business class seats...they feel cheap and cramped


And they are not comfortable, especially in the fully reclined position (in my opinion). Eight across in Business class is much too crowded. I also just flat out find the layout to be extremely awkward!


Quoting slinky09 (Reply 18):
Don't like flying backwards, and I don't like the face contact, climbing over passengers, crew handing other peoples' meals and drinks across my face


I too am not bothered by a rear facing seat nor am I loathe to be facing another individual. However, I do find it difficult to carry on an easy conversation with a traveling companion unless you both are fully upright and even then you have to lean forward to be heard.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 25):
The motive of others has to be questioned when on a.net we witness the attempted trashing of a tried and tested, decade old and globally successful product/brand like British Airways Club World. It's obvious so don't insult our intelligence with anything else.

I have absolutely have no desire to "trash" any airline's product nor do I have any ulterior motive in expressing my opinions in this forum. As for this "decade old design of Club World, I flew on it about a year after this reverse whatever it is called, was put into service roundtrip transatlantic and vowed never to fly on it again. For the rest of the "decade", I enjoyed Business class on American (2X), KLM, LH (2X) and my last trip was on Delta. Delta's recently refurbished B764's to LHR and back were by far the most enjoyable of them all. Staggered 1-2-1 Business seating in a DL76 outshines BA's T7 reverse stagger everyday.
 
GT4EZY
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:35 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:46 am

Since when has club world been 8 across?
Proud to fly from Manchester!
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:42 am

Quoting cubastar (Reply 42):
I have absolutely have no desire to "trash" any airline's product nor do I have any ulterior motive in expressing my opinions in this forum.

lol....yeah right....

Quoting cubastar (Reply 42):
and my last trip was on Delta. Delta's recently refurbished B764's to LHR and back were by far the most enjoyable of them all

The difference between BA and DL is market demand. DL for a start hasn't got nor could fill a First class cabin.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 37):
There's no doubt that the CW design makes for a very high seating density.

But, financially, consider that BA can have up to 70 Club World seats on a 747. Add to that 14 First Class seats on a 747, and 30 World Traveller Plus seats on a 70J 747, that's a level of premium seat capacity way above many other carriers.


How many J seats are there on a DL 767 ? Is it anywher near 84 F + J on a BA 744 ?

This is the reason for the Club World lay-out. Compromise for $$$ pure and simple. Very basic stuff I would of thought.

[Edited 2012-02-11 23:44:58]

[Edited 2012-02-11 23:47:18]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
Speedbird2155
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:44 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:33 am

Quoting cubastar (Reply 42):
However, I do find it difficult to carry on an easy conversation with a traveling companion unless you both are fully upright and even then you have to lean forward to be heard.

The Club World seat actually makes it much easier to chat with your companion as you are facing each other. It takes away the need to twist your head to look at the person and my partner and I love it for that reason.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:55 am

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 43):
Since when has club world been 8 across?

On 777's and 747's since the day it was introduced. 6 across on 767's and 4 across on 318's. However on 318's its all forward facing.
 
CAL
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:33 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:14 pm

Continental now UNITED. Business Class. All Fully Flat Seat bed and all have direct access to the aisle except for the seat by the window where you would also have to step over someone.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ken Iwelumo - Global Aviation Images

 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting cal (Reply 47):
Continental now UNITED. Business Class. All Fully Flat Seat bed and all have direct access to the aisle except for the seat by the window where you would also have to step over someone.

I'll stick to my little private cabin next to the window in Club World thanks, rather than with someone beside me and no partition
 
EricR
Posts: 1226
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

RE: Why Do Other Airlines Not Copy BA Club World?

Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting starguy (Reply 11):
I was travelling alone and had to endure sleeping side by side with a total stranger, those intimate moments in the middle of the night where you realise that it's not your wife that you're spooning but a 15 stone businessman made for a rather uncomfortable and embarrassing breakfast!

As long as the person next to you does not snore or emit any foul odors, then there really should not be any issues. It is a good way to meet new people.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos