Emirates Announces A380 For AMS

Luxair · Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:01 am

Haven't read it yet here on a.net but Emirates announced to replace 77W flight to AMS with A380 starting 01 of august 2012, source is www.telegraaf.nl. I expected this to happen in the future but not so soon to be honest. Wow! AF/KLM will have some serious competition and pressure on this route to DXB out of AMS!

CHRISBA777ER · Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:19 am

Great news. KL will be squeezed out - expect DXB going A332 before too long.

Gelukwensen aan mijn vrienden van Nederland en aan de Luchtvaartlijnen van Emiraten.

CrimsonNL · Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:24 pm

I personally don't see why anyone employed in the Dutch aviation industry (other then those working with/for EK), should be happy about this news. Sure the 380 will be a nice sight at AMS, but to me it's just another sign of the growing Emirates beast that is threatening numerous airlines throughout Europe.

My two (euro) cents

Martijn

AIR MALTA · Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:37 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 2):
I personally don't see why anyone employed in the Dutch aviation industry (other then those working with/for EK), should be happy about this news. Sure the 380 will be a nice sight at AMS, but to me it's just another sign of the growing Emirates beast that is threatening numerous airlines throughout Europe.

I have to second you on this one... European airlines are being squeezed out by the Gulf beasts and by the EU commission which is imposing on European travel unfair and unsustainable rules...

EPA001 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:43 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 2):
Sure the 380 will be a nice sight at AMS, but to me it's just another sign of the growing Emirates beast that is threatening numerous airlines throughout Europe.

It is. But it is also a challenge to cope with the competition. If that requires new measures, then so be it. Especially aviation is a world-wide industry where regional rules are not a very good thing. The Emissions regulations Europe is taking are by itself OK, but only if the rest of the world joins them in that. Otherwise it is quite pointless and counter-productive.

But as a fan of aviation and 4-holers I will be glad to see the A380 every time I am in AMS (2 x per week).

mikey72 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:58 pm

Better get used to it.

This is the thin edge of the wedge.

Coud always refuse them rights I suppose.

Seems to be common place in continental Europe.

anstar · Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:07 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
Great news. KL will be squeezed out - expect DXB going A332 before too long.

DXB is already a 332

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 5):
Better get used to it.

True - Eruopean airlines like BA/KL/AF/LH etc will all struggle to expand going east. Growth will have to be towards the west where they are no in as much competition with the mid east carriers.

[email protected] · Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:14 pm

Unsurprising, but good to hear.

JU068 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:14 pm

I think this is great news for both Amsterdam and those travelling to the Netherlands or beyond Dubai.

For those not too happy with this, well these big European carriers have done their share of bullying smaller European carriers. It's nice to see someone doing it to them.

airbuseric · Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:21 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 2):
I personally don't see why anyone employed in the Dutch aviation industry (other then those working with/for EK), should be happy about this news. Sure the 380 will be a nice sight at AMS, but to me it's just another sign of the growing Emirates beast that is threatening numerous airlines throughout Europe.

My two (euro) cents

Fully agree!

Luxair · Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:46 pm

It's free a competition and only the strongest will survive! Let's see it like that, we as customers will have the advantage that maybe prices will drop on that route due to more seats available, thats what we finaly all want, isn't it?

anstar · Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:54 pm

Quoting luxair (Reply 10):
It's free a competition and only the strongest will survive!

Free competition ..yes - but not a level playing field.

mikey72 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:56 pm

Quoting luxair (Reply 10):
Let's see it like that, we as customers will have the advantage that maybe prices will drop on that route due to more seats available, thats what we finaly all want, isn't it?

Doesn't work like that does it though. Not in the airline industry anyway. The weaker outfits just go bust or merge and the consequence is less choice and higher fares.

In other words for the passenger it's a fools paradise.

Too much capacity is not good. It's a shame airlines don't stick to their own turf . The industry would be alot healthier in my opinion.

(not that I expect anyone to take any notice of it)

aa1818 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:56 pm

Pretty Soon we'll be flying JFK-LAX and LHR-MAD via DXB or DOH!
haha

AA1818

BasilFawlty · Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 2):
I personally don't see why anyone employed in the Dutch aviation industry (other then those working with/for EK), should be happy about this news. Sure the 380 will be a nice sight at AMS, but to me it's just another sign of the growing Emirates beast that is threatening numerous airlines throughout Europe.

Which is their own fault, they deserve it. European airlines are too busy with increasing fares, fuel surcharges, cutting down inflight services and in the meantime keeping the employees and the unions happy.

Amsterdam · Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:09 pm

Bad news for AMS actually.
Think ahead.

ASA · Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:30 pm

What I find surprising is the difference between the action and the expectation of the reaction.

EU created this behemoth (A380) to begin with ... and their big players (AF, LH, etc) have already deployed it across their trunk routes. And now the EU residents don't want to see the same aircraft in other colors deployed in their hubs?

Maybe, they should not have sold the bird to outside-EU players ...

[Edited 2012-02-15 07:33:25]

airportugal310 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 16):
EU created this behemoth (A380) to begin with ... and their big players (AF, LH, etc) have already deployed it across their trunk routes. And now the EU residents don't want to see the same aircraft in other colors deployed in their hubs?

Shocking, isn't it?

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
Too much capacity is not good. It's a shame airlines don't stick to their own turf . The industry would be alot healthier in my opinion.

So you mean every airline should stick to within its own borders? Please explain how we could have international travel using this mentality? No EU airplanes in the US and vice-versa?

Very clever!

mikey72 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 16):
EU created this behemoth (A380) to begin with ... and their big players (AF, LH, etc) have already deployed it across their trunk routes. And now the EU residents don't want to see the same aircraft in other colors deployed in their hubs?

That is the tip of a very big iceberg. An iceberg that just happens to be in the pocket of EK.

Tomskii · Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:38 pm

I don't see where the fantastic news is for KL and all the other carriers on AMS.. They have been reducing to smaller airplane types already..

Now where is the: this is great for AMS now!?

Think ahead of time and not only from a spotters' perspective!

9MMPQ · Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:45 pm

I don't doubt EK will eventually deploy the A380 to AMS but has anyone seen something from EK themselves ? I haven't found it yet & i'd hardly go on the word of this newspaper alone.

travelavnut · Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:50 pm

A bit tiring to read all the crap about "it not being a level playing field" or the effects on national carriers like KL.

Luckily we are living in a free market capitalist society and if a carrier like KL gets into trouble because EK is just following a solid business plan than the problem lies with KL and not with EK.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 14):
Which is their own fault, they deserve it. European airlines are too busy with increasing fares, fuel surcharges, cutting down inflight services and in the meantime keeping the employees and the unions happy.

Quoting anstar (Reply 11):
Free competition ..yes - but not a level playing field.

So? That's the way the world works. What would you advice? Ban all carriers like EK from European airports? At the moment they have the better product and cost structure, it's only fair they get more business.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
Too much capacity is not good. It's a shame airlines don't stick to their own turf . The industry would be alot healthier in my opinion.

Errr, so how would that work???!

Quoting Tomskii (Reply 19):
I don't see where the fantastic news is for KL and all the other carriers on AMS.. They have been reducing to smaller airplane types already..

So? That's their own decisions probably based around load factors, that EK can bring in an 380 is good news for EK. They must be doing something good that other carriers are not doing.

rwsea · Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting luxair (Thread starter):
AF/KLM will have some serious competition and pressure on this route to DXB out of AMS!

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 2):
I personally don't see why anyone employed in the Dutch aviation industry (other then those working with/for EK), should be happy about this news. Sure the 380 will be a nice sight at AMS, but to me it's just another sign of the growing Emirates beast that is threatening numerous airlines throughout Europe.

Living in AMS and being a Platinum member with KL, I obviously want them to succeed and offer a wide variety of destinations. With that said, KL simply hasn't adapted to the times. The business class offering is highly outdated - Emirates is probably 10 years ahead. The lounge offerings are not great. Customer service, like in much of Holland, tends to be rather poor when there are irrops or other issues. The website is full of bugs. The frequent flyer program is a joke. With all of these issues, it's easy to see why a carrier like Emirates with better service can do well.

BasilFawlty · Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting Tomskii (Reply 19):
Think ahead of time and not only from a spotters' perspective!

From a passengers' perspective you get lower fares, better inflight service and more baggage allowance.

AIR MALTA · Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 21):
Luckily we are living in a free market capitalist society and if a carrier like KL gets into trouble because EK is just following a solid business plan than the problem lies with KL and not with EK.

It is not because of KL. It is because of the way we live and do business in the Western World. If you want better aircraft and better service and A380s flying between LHR and AMS, let's just halve KLs crew salaries so that the crew costs would be on par with those of EK. Of course EK does not pay taxes on employees neither their employees do... it is kind of austerity measures that Greece is doing to its people. With a salary of just 750 euros a month per CC, KL could invest the difference for upgrading the aircraft, the IFE and even offer a 3 course meal on AMS-DUS in Econmy class and that by asking its caterer to halve its costs, its cleaning team, etc... KL would also need to ban Unions and axe all the old agreements....

but I hope that when these measures are taken by KL to make you enjoy your first class service on KL between AMS and LHR, your salary will also be divided by 4 because your manager will think that you would need to be on par with the Chinese salaries to better compete with them and offer a better product....

[Edited 2012-02-15 08:41:27]

mikey72 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 21):
At the moment they have the better product and cost structure, it's only fair they get more business.

Yes and you also have to haul your tired ass through DXB.

I'd pay more, take some sandwiches and read a book if it means non-stop thanks.

Not so much a concern if you live near a regional airport granted, you have to change anyway. Not alot the home carrier can do about that unless they just want to throw away money on loss making routes.

Non-stop is a big advantage for the legacies at their hubs though. I don't know why they don't make more of it in commercials etc given the EK threat. Maybe they will.

It's the ONLY kink in EK's armour. With a little effort, more intra-alliance co-operation and time there could be a huge reversal of fortune.

In that respect and with regard to EK it's a shame AF, LH and BA are not in the same alliance !!

[Edited 2012-02-15 08:39:55]

anstar · Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:44 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 25):
Non-stop is a big advantage for the legacies at their hubs though. I don't know why they don't make more of it in commercials etc given the EK threat. Maybe they will.

Probably because a lot of LH/BA/KL/AF's pax are actually transit pax. I guess it may be effective in their local markets.

Re KL - I would guess over 50% of their business is transfer passengers.

PEET7G · Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 24):

Excellent point! many people just think liberalization is everything...it is, when played on an even field. This is by far not the case with the ME and the EU carriers.

I was long expecting an A380 entering the AMS route, as the 77W is always stuffed to the max now days (however it was a sure route to be bumped up 1 class as a premium FF.

I sure miss the days of the 77L, I used the AMS connection just for the ride with the 77L in the beginning

mikey72 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 26):
Probably because a lot of LH/BA/KL/AF's pax are actually transit pax

If they're transitting with LH/BA/KL/AF they are unlikely to be poached by EK ?

It's their trunk routes that are under attack.

anstar · Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:09 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 28):
If they're transitting with LH/BA/KL/AF they are unlikely to be poached by EK ?

EK are a threat to both.

they are a threat to EU carriers local pax - ie AMS-ICN, LHR-CPT, FRA-DEL etc

They are also a threat to their transfer pax. A lot of people travelling say from South Africa to Europe may now go through the DXB hub rather than the non stop services.

migair54 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:50 pm

Right yesterday we were talking about this when discussing about the launch of Lisbon.... I was not sure if A380 or 2xday before... but now we have the answer....

I hope next one is BCN or MAD...

EBGflyer · Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 20):
I don't doubt EK will eventually deploy the A380 to AMS but has anyone seen something from EK themselves ? I haven't found it yet & i'd hardly go on the word of this newspaper alone.

No reason for doubts. It's announced on airlineroutes:

Update at 1240GMT 15FEB12

Starting 01AUG12, Emirates is introducing Airbus A380 operation on its Daily Dubai – Amsterdam operation, replacing Boeing 777-300ER aircraft.

The airline launched AMS service in May 2010.

Schedule:

EK147 DXB0825 – 1330AMS 388 D
EK148 AMS1530 – 2359DXB 388 D

[email protected] · Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:54 pm

I wonder when EK will launch its second-daily DXB-AMS-DXB, which will depart DXB in mid-afternoon (1430-1630 range) and arrive back into DXB in the early morning (0600-0730 range). Can't be too far away, unless EK doesn't have sufficient traffic rights.

BasilFawlty · Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 32):
I wonder when EK will launch its second-daily DXB-AMS-DXB, which will depart DXB in mid-afternoon (1430-1630 range) and arrive back into DXB in the early morning (0600-0730 range). Can't be too far away, unless EK doesn't have sufficient traffic rights.

They requested slots for a second daily flight earlier this year, but they returned the slots just recently.

[email protected] · Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:58 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 33):
They requested slots for a second daily flight earlier this year, but they returned the slots just recently.

Aha, thanks for the update.

9MMPQ · Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 31):
No reason for doubts. It's announced on airlineroutes:

Never said i doubted it will ever happen but i just couldn't find anything from EK themselves. Our newspaper '' De Telegraaf '' is sometimes quick to jump on the bandwagon so to say

Oddly enough you'd think EK would update their own site with this news too. But the A380 information page only shows the launch of Rome last year.

http://www.emirates.com/english/flyi...ws_and_events/news_and_events.aspx

A388 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 21):
A bit tiring to read all the crap about "it not being a level playing field" or the effects on national carriers like KL.

Luckily we are living in a free market capitalist society and if a carrier like KL gets into trouble because EK is just following a solid business plan than the problem lies with KL and not with EK.

I agree with this too, EK is just doing a good job on the markets they serve, even though they do have a much larger fleet of widebody aircraft alone which allows them do what they are doing.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 21):
So? That's the way the world works. What would you advice? Ban all carriers like EK from European airports? At the moment they have the better product and cost structure, it's only fair they get more business.

Yes, EK does have a much better product compared to KL in this case.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 25):
I'd pay more, take some sandwiches and read a book if it means non-stop thanks.

We must not forget that not all destinations can be reached nonstop. Besides this, the fact that EK is being so succesful in transferring people through their DXB hub means that people actually prefer to use DXB as a transfer point so EK and DXB are doing something really good that takes away passengers from the traditional hubs we knew before the EK era so to speak.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 25):
Non-stop is a big advantage for the legacies at their hubs though. I don't know why they don't make more of it in commercials etc given the EK threat. Maybe they will.

As has been said already, it's not just about doing more commercials, it's mainly about the airline's cost structure more than anything else.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 30):
Right yesterday we were talking about this when discussing about the launch of Lisbon.... I was not sure if A380 or 2xday before... but now we have the answer....

Yes, I was the one who asked this in that EK launching Lison thread. I heard it before that EK would use the A380 to AMS. Now we know.

Finally, I can imagine the frustration of people who see their own national airline suffer because of a beast like EK but it is just the reality we live in and how the free market works. If it was KL or BA or LH or AF being the same as EK, then someone else would be complaining. There will always be people complaining, that's the sad part but it's the truth. What makes EK's model work better is the geographical location of their DXB hub. Because of the new long range widebody aircraft, it allows EK to connect every country in the world with each other through their DXB hub. The same goes for QR and their hub in DOH. These airlines just have it going their way. How long their success will last, we just don't know. It can last forever, or it can break at some point. We will just have to wait and see what will happen...

A388

[Edited 2012-02-15 12:35:40]

EPA001 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 16):
EU created this behemoth (A380) to begin with ... and their big players (AF, LH, etc) have already deployed it across their trunk routes

Incorrect. Airbus created the A380, not the EU. The EU is not a company.

.

Quoting ASA (Reply 16):
And now the EU residents don't want to see the same aircraft in other colors deployed in their hubs?

What residents want does not necessarily have to correspond to what the politicians or the captains of Industry want.

.

LondonCity · Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:39 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):

Great news. KL will be squeezed out - expect DXB going A332 before too long.

But KL has all the feed traffic over AMS to fill its seats to/from DXB. EK has feed over DXB but not AMS.

Quoting anstar (Reply 6):
True - Eruopean airlines like BA/KL/AF/LH etc will all struggle to expand going east. Growth will have to be towards the west where they are no in as much competition with the mid east carriers.

For now the European carriers have extensive N American networks. But passengers from the Gulf region and India who used to fly via Europe, and still do, have more and more non-stop US flights on offer from AUH/DXB/DOH. So the European carriers stand to lose some of this Gulf/India to US transfer traffic.

Viscount724 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 38):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):

Great news. KL will be squeezed out - expect DXB going A332 before too long.

But KL has all the feed traffic over AMS to fill its seats to/from DXB. EK has feed over DXB but not AMS.

KL's twice-daily service with a choice of both daytime and overnight flights is also an advantage for the local O&D market. Business traffic likes overnight flights to avoid wasting a day travelling in each direction.

In Y class I would also much prefer a smaller KL A332 than an A380, or especially EK's current cramped 10-abreast 77W.

A388 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 38):
But KL has all the feed traffic over AMS to fill its seats to/from DXB. EK has feed over DXB but not AMS.

That is not entirely true, it depends on how you see this. KL indeed has feed at AMS to DXB but that feed has its limits as EK also flies to more European destinations by the day so to speak, making AMS less competitive. This also applies to South American/African and Asian destinations. I think this is why people and airlines in Europe complain about EK.

Geographically, EK and their hub in DXB are a more attractive 'one-stop' airport for these continents to connect with each other.

As I have said, time will tell how succesful EK and the other Middle Eastern airlines will be.

A388

mikey72 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 36):
There will always be people complaining, that's the sad part but it's the truth. What makes EK's model work better is the geographical location of their DXB hub. Because of the new long range widebody aircraft, it allows EK to connect every country in the world with each other

I just don't buy that. You mention new long-range aircraft but the European hubs have been able to reach everywhere bar Australia non-stop since the 744 was introduced. What's that ..over 20 years.

And Australia is only really a big market for the UK and even then isn't exactly a gold mine for the operators. (Luckliy BA and QF have wound up in the same alliance.)

It's away from the hubs that their formula is such a winning one because they can do ''regional-DXB-regional'' or ''regional-DXB-hub'' or ''hub-DXB-regional'' with equal aplomb.

If the European carriers struggle against EK out of their hubs on their non-stop trunks then frankly they just need to up their game. Especially AF and LH because unlike BA (at the moment) they have the advantage of a superior international network.

[Edited 2012-02-15 13:11:35]

shamrock604 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:12 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 21):
A bit tiring to read all the crap about "it not being a level playing field" or the effects on national carriers like KL.

Luckily we are living in a free market capitalist society and if a carrier like KL gets into trouble because EK is just following a solid business plan than the problem lies with KL and not with EK.

Agree totally. Boo hoo to Lufthansa, KL, AF and anyone else who feels agrieved that an airline dares to set up a route from it's own home airport to somewhere else!!

Does Europe have some automatic right to be the only place on earth that exploits other markets for it's own selfish ends??

Do LH, KL, AF have some automatic right to exist?

Fact is - they have completely FAILED to satisfy market demand for travel to Asia / Australia at fares and times that meet the wants of consumers.

Now, Emirates can offer a one stop service at attractive fares that people are willing to pay.

LH, KL, AF, BA all did it for long enough, squeezing traffic from all corners of the globe through their hubs.

While I agree European Governments are acting like idiots taxing the industry to death, that's not EK's fault.

So man up and accept the competition and adapt to it.

Such protectionist nonsense is quite frankly pathetic and not something I ever expected to hear from Europeans (and I include myself in that European category, obviously).

mikey72 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 42):
Such protectionist nonsense is quite frankly pathetic and not something I ever expected to hear from Europeans

If there is one thing the UK government cannot be accused of it's protecting BA. Not since EK has been around anyway.(I hasten to add.)

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 42):
Do LH, KL, AF have some automatic right to exist?

In Germany, Holland and France they do.

Where does one draw the line ?

What if we got to a point where you can't get to HKG from FRA without going through DXB ?

Or travel between London and Sydney on an Australian or British airline ?

Whilst not breaking any law and whilst just the reality of a free market wouldn't that be rather an ''uncomfortable'' situation to end up in ??

The deregulation of the industry might suddenly go full circle and become more regulated than 'ever' it was.

Nobody wants that.

So I don't know what the answer is.

[Edited 2012-02-15 14:09:50 by srbmod]

kl911 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:36 pm

As a native Dutch person I welcome the A380 and Emirates to AMS. I dont care who I fly with as long as it doesnt cost me a fortune, and service is good.

European carriers are allowed to fly to DXB, but not other way around?? What logic is that? EK flies from its hub to AMS like KL flies from its hub to NYC. Both aim for connecting pax, not O&D traffic.

For us passengers on this website the more competition the better, lower fares is always a welcome thing.

mikey72 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:51 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 45):
For us passengers on this website the more competition the better, lower fares is always a welcome thing.

Seeing as the overall trend is now 'shrinkage' due to too much competition and a knackered economy the passenger I fear has already had the best of it.

Look at the States, gone from 6 to 4 in the blink of an eye and one of them is in Chapter 11.

Oil $118 and going god knows where and in Europe there will be a tax for farting on a plane soon so.....

aerokiwi · Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:52 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 11):
Free competition ..yes - but not a level playing field.

Oh boo hoo. New Zealand and Australian carriers have had to deal with this for decades, first from Asian airlines able to use the leverage afforded by their spectacular hubs, then with the Middle east airlines doing likewise.

Adapt, change, become better businesses. Everyone else has to.

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 15):
Bad news for AMS actually.
Think ahead.

Fantastic news for AMS.

Think differently.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 21):
A bit tiring to read all the crap about "it not being a level playing field" or the effects on national carriers like KL.

Agreed. KL's service standards are decididly average at the best of times. Actually that goes for IB, AF, LH and BA - all the major carriers in Europe. Compared to the Asian and Middle Eastern airlines, Europe's "national" carriers are decididly sub-par and need a shake-up. They're neither cheap nor service leaders. They're caught in the middle care of their cosy little patches.

Shake 'em up, Emirates.

mikey72 · Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 47):
They're caught in the middle care of their cosy little patches.

Cosy ? You're havin' a laugh ain't you ? If anyone's got it cosy it's EK in DXB.

As for service standards that's a cultural thing.

Not that European's are naturally rude but compared to some American crew (no offense America) they are angels personified.

Apparently that's the way they like it over there. Bit rough !

[Edited 2012-02-15 14:11:10]

magyar · Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:18 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 44):
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 42):
Do LH, KL, AF have some automatic right to exist?

In Germany, Holland and France they do.

But they also like to lecture their East/Central European brothers about the benefit of free trade and not to protect their own companies (the name "Malev" rings any bell?).

aerokiwi · Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 47):
Cosy ? You're havin' a laugh ain't you ? If anyone's got it cosy it's EK in DXB.

Nope. National airlines nurtured and protected by respective governments for decades, slowly being exposed to the realities of global aviation. About time.

Yes the same can be said about Emirates (questionable subsidies etc, though I'm not even close to being an expert on that). Buit arguably, if EU airlines got to benefit from said protectionism and pandering for so long, it seems rich if they were to start complaining now (Canada, you there?).

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 47):
Not that European's are naturally rude but compared to some American crew (no offense America) they are angels personified.

May have been true a few years back but recent experience on UA and Delta suggests that there's marginal difference if any between US and European service attitudes now. Actually I was really impressed with Delta and rued our corporate travel agents that booked me on what they thought was a Delta flight (codeshare with KLM).

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