Final Hours For Kingfisher?

g2scandinavia · Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:28 pm

Final hour for Kingfisher?

Indian press now reports that the government has closed down their bank accounts.

http://m.indianexpress.com/news/free...n-fly-kingfisher-to-taxman/914346/

Cipango · Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:12 pm

I hope not. Flew them DEL-BKK-DEL-LHR and they really had a solid product!

Very good airline that doesn't deserve to fail.

audidudi · Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:18 pm

Quoting cipango (Reply 2):

Vijay Mallya is a billionaire, so if he cares at all about his airline, then why doesn't he cough up a few million from his own pocket to keep it going? Probably thinks it's more important to run his Formula One Team Force India than to save his airline.

Cipango · Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:22 pm

Very good point, entrepreneurs are supposed to invest. Surely if he see's a future he would be paying the wages of the flight attendants and basically riding the storm until its over.

Maybe he feels its a goner?

jfk777 · Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:35 pm

Lets hope Kingfisher doesn't end in such a sad way.

legacyins · Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:55 am

Quoting audidudi (Reply 3):

It goes back to the old joke.... How does a billionaire become a millionaire? Start an Airline.

HDA212 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:33 am

Kingfisher does provide a solid product for the Indian aviation market, and I certainly hope they can keep afloat

Boeing747_600 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting cipango (Reply 2):
Very good airline that doesn't deserve to fail.

I'm sorry but an airline that cannot meet operating costs and payroll should not be kept afloat just for the service that they offer on board. All of that comes at a price that they cannot afford and neither should the taxpayer.

jr · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:54 am

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 8):
I'm sorry but an airline that cannot meet operating costs and payroll should not be kept afloat just for the service that they offer on board. All of that comes at a price that they cannot afford and neither should the taxpayer.

Getting tired of these Kingfisher stories. It is always someone else's fault than their own. Aircraft reconfig, govt freezing bank accounts, what next? ... Planes not wanting to move as the next excuse whey there is no gas because they did not pay for it? If the govt unfreezing the bank acounts would result in employees getting paychecks, why weren't they paid in first place before the freeze?

Bottomline they have a business model that is not working, which Mallaya did not want to change when he still could have. He should have kept the Deccan model throughout the domestic system.

smi0006 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:03 am

Quoting jr (Reply 9):
Getting tired of these Kingfisher stories. It is always someone else's fault than their own. Aircraft reconfig, govt freezing bank accounts, what next? ... Planes not wanting to move as the next excuse whey there is no gas because they did not pay for it? If the govt unfreezing the bank acounts would result in employees getting paychecks, why weren't they paid in first place before the freeze?

Whilst I agree with what you are saying, I am always curious as to what impact the artifical survival of AI is having on 9W and IT. I would be fascinated to see what the Indian aviation industry would look like if AI was forced into a situation where it was a business and not a government department.

mariner · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:33 am

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 8):
I'm sorry but an airline that cannot meet operating costs and payroll should not be kept afloat just for the service that they offer on board.

If he can pull a financial rabbit out of the hat, great. Otherwise, I agree - I don't see the point in throwing good money after bad.

mariner

avek00 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 10):
I would be fascinated to see what the Indian aviation industry would look like if AI was forced into a situation where it was a business and not a government department.

The Indian aviation sector would become an utter sh!tshow if AI was not maintained as a government-owned entity, and the political factions in India that matter most all know this.

lightsaber · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:42 am

Kingfisher, as already noted, has the wrong business model. 9W has done far better than IT in attracting the business market. In India, the yield is really poor unless one corners the business market.

An interesting video:
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/86762290/

I think the speaker (in the video) has the wrong conclusion in that Spicejet and Indigo can keep adding seats (due to their low costs). IT's costs are just too high without the ability to attract enough *paying* premium customers. Some of the LCCs can make money, so I disagree with the AI execs exact conclusions. What is happening is the LCCs have undermined AI's and IT's business model.

Its one thing to like Kingfisher's service. It is another to pay for it. Apparently there really isn't that market (or enough left over from AI and 9W) for IT.

Quoting legacyins (Reply 6):
It goes back to the old joke.... How does a billionaire become a millionaire? Start an Airline.

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 10):
I am always curious as to what impact the artifical survival of AI is having on 9W and IT.

Without AI, IT would have a surge in domestic as well as international demand. However... IT has some fundamental cost issues that must be addressed. 9W has done a far better job signing businesses to contracts. Why? (I'd like to know.) High costs are only ok if matched by high revenue (e.g., BA, LH, etc.). If the added money being spent doesn't bring in added revenue... that is just a cost disadvantage.

Question: For hubbing, who does the best job in India? (Timely and reliable connections being the #1 criteria.)

Lightsaber

ScottB · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:50 am

Quoting cipango (Reply 2):
Very good airline that doesn't deserve to fail.

A well-run airline doesn't allow its finances to reach the point where the government freezes its bank accounts because the taxes haven't been paid. How much business acumen does it take to always make sure the taxes are paid on time?

The government doesn't have to give you time to pay your taxes. Frankly, Kingfisher management should never have been relying on forbearance of its tax obligations, period, end of discussion.

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 10):
I am always curious as to what impact the artifical survival of AI is having on 9W and IT. I would be fascinated to see what the Indian aviation industry would look like if AI was forced into a situation where it was a business and not a government department.

Obviously the industry would look different, but anyone wanting to do business in India's aviation sector needs to understand that the playing field isn't level and that AI is run as a government department.

[Edited 2012-02-20 21:33:32 by SA7700]

usflyer msp · Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:39 am

I thought that IT was a joke from the day they launched. The fact that billionare vanity airlines almost always fail, VS being the only exception, and the fact that Indian domestic sectors do not demand premium, high-cost 5-star service gave me an inkling that the carrier would not have a long shelf life. Frankly, I am surprised they have lasted this long.

ghifty · Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:33 am

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 7):
I'm sorry but an airline that cannot meet operating costs and payroll should not be kept afloat just for the service that they offer on board. All of that comes at a price that they cannot afford and neither should the taxpayer.

+1. Just because an airline is nice to fly with doesn't mean they should stay. I mean, come on, by that mentality, we'd have a bunch of 77W's flying around with, like, 5 seats on them.

clickhappy · Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:33 am

The picture in the article the OP linked to is classic; with "lines" like that it's no wonder they are failing...

aeroblogger · Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:25 am

For all you people blaming others for Kingfisher's problems, you are mistaken.

Kingfisher is a very poorly managed airline, with a unsustainable business model.

They have not made a profit since they launched back in 2003. not ONCE. Even in 2005, when Indian aviation was at its most profitable and even Air India was making tidy profits, Kingfisher was bleeding money.

Saying it is the fault of [insert Government, Air India, banks, or whatever else] is not accurate. It is the fault of nobody but Kingfisher's management, along with owner Vijay Mallya.

I sincerely hope that they disappear soon. The only thing they have succeeded at is looting our government by taking millions of dollars worth of loans which they will never pay back. The longer they drag this out, the worse it will be for the sector.

They are a disgrace who don't deserve a place in the beautiful Indian Skies.

flyingalex · Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:57 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 5):
It goes back to the old joke.... How does a billionaire become a millionaire? Start an Airline.

I know it in this version:

Q: What's the quickest way to make a small fortune?

A: Start with a large fortune and found an airline!

thomasphoto60 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:12 am

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 18):
I know it in this version:

Q: What's the quickest way to make a small fortune?

A: Start with a large fortune and found an airline!

The version that I keep hearing.

"What's the quickest way to become a millionaire in the airline industry?.........Start off as a billionaire"

garpd · Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:23 am

Too much too soon, eyes bigger than their wallets. Kingfisher was doomed the moment they started buying every new bit of shiney kit under the sun without the routes and infrastructure to support them. I always considered their A380 order an "ooooh, me too" order.

[Edited 2012-02-21 02:26:10]

scouseflyer · Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:30 am

Quoting garpd (Reply 20):
I always considered their A380 order an "ooooh, me too" order.

and their A345 order was just plain barking!

Faro · Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:46 am

Seems a fair chance IT won't be around to benefit from the proposed new government boost package for Indian airlines:

http://www.travelbizmonitor.com/cent...-package-for-indian-airlines-15703

I suppose 9W will be the major beneficiary then; their shares have already gained 7% despite their own (significant) problems...

Faro

UAL777UK · Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:46 am

Well, if as expected by the looks of things they do fail and shut up shop thats going to make things interesting again with which airline goes with which alliance from India again. That thread will start very quickly I am sure.

VIDP · Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:02 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 18):
The only thing they have succeeded at is looting our government by taking millions of dollars worth of loans which they will never pay back. The longer they drag this out, the worse it will be for the sector.

Now you are being too emotional here i guess. Kingfisher never looted any money from the goverment. They sold their idea to the consortium of the banks who funded their debt. Agreed that banks utilizes the money which you deposited in the bank account for your savings by lending it to companies and organizations at a higher rate of intrest. So let the bankers take a call. As far as non performing assests of banks are concerned dont worry about them bankers know their job well. Before any more debt rationalization they are asking for more equity from VJM. I think the wrong thing which Kingfisher Management did was deducted income tax from the respective salaries of their employess but never deposited the amount with the Tax department which made every employee of Kingfisher a tax defaulter in the eyes of department.

ORDJOE · Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:01 pm

It is too bad it came to this, but this seemed like something fueled by this guys prestige and ego to have such an airline. The India market is not as premium of a market as people think it is. When they started ordered A380s IT lost credibility with me. I again wonder how they got invited into OW, the slightest bit of due dilligence would have raised red flags

Archer · Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:11 pm

How many and what type aircraft do they have on order?

AustrianZRH · Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:22 pm

Quoting Archer (Reply 26):
How many and what type aircraft do they have on order?

According to their 2010 investor report (http://www.flykingfisher.com/pdf/KFA-InvestorPresentation-March2010.pdf), the following:
42 A32S
15 A330
5 A350
5 A380

faugusto0264 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:55 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 17):

Kingfisher is a very poorly managed airline, with a unsustainable business model.

Question is: what would be a "sustainable business model" ??? Perhaps 9 out of 10 airlines that used to exist 20 years ago folded, I suppose - from state-owned companies such as Sabena, Swissair and Malev to traditional companies such as PanAm, TWA, Varig and Braniff - not to mention smaller and/or low cost companies such as Skyeurope, Dan-air, Piedmont, Spanair and even others such as Iberia, KLM and TAM that ended being incorporated by the concorrence ... All gone for different ultimate causes but ultimately for not having a "sustainable business model".

jayeshrulz · Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:09 pm

I hope this airline stays. Not because of the passenger's sake, but hundreds of pilots and other crew would lose their jobs!
That would be a disaster in this current economy! I hope they turn profitable soon and embrace the Indian skies again.

sw733 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:48 pm

I'm flying BLR-DEL next weekend and made sure neither myself nor my colleagues booked the flight on Kingfisher, even though our company wanted us to (because it was the cheapest by about US$30), instead making sure we got on Jet Airways. Starting to look like all my fighting was very smart!

My best to all the Kingfisher staff.

golfradio · Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:56 pm

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 29):
but hundreds of pilots and other crew would lose their jobs!

I am not so sure about the pilots. All the senior pilots have been defecting en masse to 6E. Indigo has been active poaching the A320 pilots with lucrative signing bonuses. Sure a lot of the cabin crew and other staff are out of luck. But if I was working for IT, I would have seen the writing on the wall a long time ago.

link

PlaneAdmirer · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 27):
42 A32S
15 A330
5 A350
5 A380

Not on topic - But this is something I have been wondering about for a while now. Both manufacturers have orders, and some quite large, on their books from financially weak airlines. There is a thread on UA's next order and part of me wonders whether it makes more sense to scoop orders of failed airlines rather to initiate new ones.

usflyer msp · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 27):
According to their 2010 investor report (http://www.flykingfisher.com/pdf/KFA-InvestorPresentation-March2010.pdf), the following:
42 A32S
15 A330
5 A350
5 A380

Apparently only 16 of their 64 aircraft are in a flyable condition currently. The rest have been repoes or are in need of mx. Sad.

ScottB · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting faugusto0264 (Reply 28):
Perhaps 9 out of 10 airlines that used to exist 20 years ago folded, I suppose - from state-owned companies such as Sabena, Swissair and Malev to traditional companies such as PanAm, TWA, Varig and Braniff - not to mention smaller and/or low cost companies such as Skyeurope, Dan-air, Piedmont, Spanair and even others such as Iberia, KLM and TAM that ended being incorporated by the concorrence ... All gone for different ultimate causes but ultimately for not having a "sustainable business model".

The original Braniff has actually been gone for thirty years, but... Piedmont was purchased by one of its competitors (USAir, at the time) arguably because its business was successful. Piedmont was taking business in the Eastern U.S. away from USAir, so the easiest way to eliminate the competition was by purchasing them. Fast forward 25 years and the crown jewel of Piedmont -- the CLT hub -- is the largest US Airways hub.

I'd actually argue that a company being purchased as a going concern -- as happened with IB, KL, NW, & CO (and as will happen with JJ) -- is a sign of a good business model, since the purchaser was wiling to pay good money (or equity) for that company. Government-engineered "rescue" mergers or purchases of assets of bankrupt companies would not fall into this group.

COEWR787 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 33):
Apparently only 16 of their 64 aircraft are in a flyable condition currently. The rest have been repoes or are in need of mx. Sad.

Yep. 8 ATRs and 8 320s according to recent reports.

I see that Continental on its website is offering connections to Kingfisher flights that are known to be not flying on the days that connections are being offered. not good IMHO. I have not tried actually buying a ticket. maybe it fails at that point.

hohd · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 17):
I sincerely hope that they disappear soon. The only thing they have succeeded at is looting our government by taking millions of dollars worth of loans which they will never pay back. The longer they drag this out, the worse it will be for the sector.

The banks had a choice of bailing out Kingfisher or leaving. They chose the bail out. There is no large looting going on here. Now with AI, yes. AI currently has about INR 70,000 crores (about $14 billion) in debt. Guess who will be paying that. Either the Indian tax payer or it will added to the external debt.

sq_ek_freak · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting golfradio (Reply 31):
Sure a lot of the cabin crew and other staff are out of luck. But if I was working for IT, I would have seen the writing on the wall a long time ago.

I've run into a few ex IT cabin crew here at EK. They seemed to have jumped ship the first chance they got as they themselves had serious reservations about their long term future with the airline...

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 33):
Apparently only 16 of their 64 aircraft are in a flyable condition currently. The rest have been repoes or are in need of mx. Sad.

Hadn't heard that - that is shocking.

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 35):
I see that Continental on its website is offering connections to Kingfisher flights that are known to be not flying on the days that connections are being offered. not good IMHO. I have not tried actually buying a ticket. maybe it fails at that point.

What's worse if you go to Kingfisher's website, there is not a single peep about service disruptions. Totally unacceptable.

Is all this a case of ostrich head in the sand syndrome? Appalling the way the story of IT has gone as of late.

Eltomzo · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting audidudi (Reply 2):
Vijay Mallya is a billionaire, so if he cares at all about his airline, then why doesn't he cough up a few million from his own pocket to keep it going? Probably thinks it's more important to run his Formula One Team Force India than to save his airline.

According to the FT, Rs6bn ($120m) is required to keep the airline flying. That represents about 1/10th of VJ's net worth, most of which won't be in liquid assets. Even he with his vast fortune would struggle to bail out Kingfisher.

From an anecdotal standpoint, I'm surprised they can't seem to make their product pay - it was very impressive when I did a number of flights on them last year, and the bar on board the A330 makes for a great experience in the air. One could argue that the space taken up by the bar could be more profitably used for seating, but from what I saw that is moot because on both HKG-DEL and DEL-LHR I remember fairly empty J cabins.

ancient350 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:05 pm

Indian media say Kingfisher was blinded by the desire and greed to be the largest airline in India and they kept on adding debts of around $1.2 Billion.

[Edited 2012-02-21 09:05:59]

ancient350 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:33 pm

Bad name Kingfisher, don't they dive into water.

Kingfisher airlines employees are not paid salaries on time (today's report). They have pledged office furniture, luxury villa, 2 helicopters for loans.

Read more..

http://dangerousmother.com/billmill.html

Revelation · Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 32):
There is a thread on UA's next order and part of me wonders whether it makes more sense to scoop orders of failed airlines rather to initiate new ones.

Pretty off-topic to bring up UA's situation in a thread about IT, if you ask me.

Quoting hohd (Reply 36):
Now with AI, yes. AI currently has about INR 70,000 crores (about $14 billion) in debt. Guess who will be paying that. Either the Indian tax payer or it will added to the external debt.

Why? Did the taxpayers finance IT?

LAXDESI · Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:09 pm

Kingfisher Airlines has to be saved: Veerappa Moily. Good thing he does not have any say in the decision. I did not expect things to unravel so quickly for Kingfisher.
http://www1.economictimes.indiatimes...ppa-moily/articleshow/11979248.cms

Quote:
Amid criticism from all quarters, beleaguered airline Kingfisher's promoter Vijay Mallya on Tuesday got some sympathy from Corporate Affairs Minister Veerappa Moily who came out in his support saying the carrier "has to be saved".

"Of course he (Vijay Mallya) has met me because he hails from Karnataka... That (Kingfisher) has to be saved. He has to work out a strategy that will be acceptable to the Finance Minister and his ministry. He has a vibrant airline. And it has given excellent service... I wish him well," Moily said.

ancient350 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):
Why? Did the taxpayers finance IT?

I read that 9 large planes of Air India or Indian airlines were reserved for high-rank politicians in India and were not used for commercial profits during peak time.

Air India is the best airline in India even today.

akelley728 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 27):
According to their 2010 investor report (http://www.flykingfisher.com/pdf/KFA-InvestorPresentation-March2010.pdf), the following:
42 A32S
15 A330
5 A350
5 A380

Ouch - that will be a decent size negative hit on Airbus' books if Kingfisher does indeed fail.

WY101 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 44):

Actually Airbus has massive orders from many carriers around the world. North and South America, Europe, MENA, Far East, Oceania . so I don't think they will be that affected. I think that this airline ends is pretty soon. Any news on Jet Airways?

theginge · Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:23 pm

I know India is a huge market but does anyone think there are too many airlines competing for the passengers which is impacting what they can charge. Taking a look at BOM-DEL there seem to be 62 flights a day with each of the 7 carriers having at least 7-15 frequencies. Are the low cost carriers having an impact on the likes of Kingfisher and Air India? It seems so.

HAWK21M · Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 29):
I hope this airline stays. Not because of the passenger's sake, but hundreds of pilots and other crew would lose their jobs!

True....

Hopefully VJM Invests the required money & stops this snowballing effect......staff resigning/spares replaced & Aircraft start flying/Pax get confidence & book KF again.

roseflyer · Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting WY101 (Reply 45):
Quoting akelley728 (Reply 44):

Actually Airbus has massive orders from many carriers around the world. North and South America, Europe, MENA, Far East, Oceania . so I don't think they will be that affected.

It would certainly affect them, but they can still sell the airplanes so I wouldn't expect white tails to be built. Airplanes are highly customized and the process starts a year out from delivery. Having to reconfigure the airplanes or having new airlines come in and buy the airplanes that are not in their typical standard configuration results in heavy discounts. If Airbus has to resell planes that were headed to Kingfisher to other airlines, they won't be making any profit on that specific frame because they have to redo much of the work or sell for steep discounts, unless of course Kingfisher is only leasing airplanes that were purchased by a leasing company.

Dealing with less financially stable airlines is something that Airbus is prepared for. It is just like with a car loan, customers with poorer credit ratings have to pay higher rates and the discounts that some airlines get aren't given across the board. I would assume that Kingfisher pays more for its A320s than British Airways does.

[Edited 2012-02-21 12:03:36]

1stfl94 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 35):
Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 33):
Apparently only 16 of their 64 aircraft are in a flyable condition currently. The rest have been repoes or are in need of mx. Sad.

Yep. 8 ATRs and 8 320s according to recent reports.

I thought the IT flight was all new since the company started (just over 5 year agos), how can they have let the maintenance slip so quickly. But their expansion plans always seemed far too good to be true despite some impressive products.

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