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kl692
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AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:19 am

So while spotting today at YYZ (feb 20 2012) AC 108 from YVR asked tower about A/C that landed ahead and tower said the A/C is exiting the runway and you are OK to land. Do you wanna go around? AC 108 choose to go around and land about ten mins later on same runway. My questions is that when is it really ok to go around and in this case tower clear him to land knew that the land AC will be off the runway before AC 108 touch down. Also as a passenger how would you feel when you know you are about to land and all of suddenly you are climbing up again. I understand that pilots have the last call but I really think the pilot could have land without a problem.

here is the link to the recording: FF to 2 mins ahead.
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/cyyz/CYYZ-Twr-Feb-20-2012-1930Z.mp3

A/C on the runway at the time:



AC108 B767 reg #C-GBZR
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jetblast
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:25 am

Quoting kl692 (Thread starter):
I understand that pilots have the last call but I really think the pilot could have land without a problem.

Going out on a limb here, I am of the opinion that the pilot flying the airplane probably has a better idea of what he wants to do with his airplane (and what is safe) than I do as an observer on the ground. Maybe braking action wasn't optimal, maybe the airplane on the runway wasn't moving fast enough, there could be a variety of reasons.

As for the passengers, I am fairly certain the pilots explained what happened as a go-around isn't a normal occurrence. If I were sitting in the back I'd rather be jetting into the air than plummeting toward the ground...
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Airontario
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:29 am

Better safe than sorry any day of the week.
 
kl692
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:30 am

Quoting jetblast (Reply 1):
As for the passengers, I am fairly certain the pilots explained what happened as a go-around isn't a normal occurrence. If I were sitting in the back I'd rather be jetting into the air than plummeting toward the ground...

While I am sure the pilot will explain to the pax what happen, it won't be right away as the pilot have to make sure everything is running smooth before coming on the PA to explain what happen so for that 30 seconds or so, a lot of things can run through the human mind.
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kl692
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting Airontario (Reply 2):
Better safe than sorry any day of the week.

I agree with you 100% however, I am sure that tower had a better view of what was going on.
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jetblast
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting kl692 (Reply 3):
While I am sure the pilot will explain to the pax what happen, it won't be right away as the pilot have to make sure everything is running smooth before coming on the PA to explain what happen so for that 30 seconds or so, a lot of things can run through the human mind.

So why can't the pax wait the 30 seconds? They've been on the airplane for hours....

I am sure people would rather 30 seconds of waiting than landing and having an accident.
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seabosdca
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:00 am

Quoting jetblast (Reply 5):
So why can't the pax wait the 30 seconds? They've been on the airplane for hours....

It's not a matter of waiting 30 seconds... it's a matter of people being scared.

I've never understood being scared during a go-around, because if the aircraft is climbing you are generally safe. But lots of people are. I've been in three go-arounds. Only one was at all out of the ordinary (microcell moving rapidly straight over the runway), but people screamed in all three.
 
kl692
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting jetblast (Reply 5):
I am sure people would rather 30 seconds of waiting than landing and having an accident.

Are you telling me that you won't panic or think of anything if you know that you were about to land and all of suddenly you are going up?

As I stated before, the pilots have the last say. Tower will not clear A/C to land if the A/C on the runway won't be able to exit before the other A/C land, or it will tell the A/C about to land to go around if he/she thinks the A/C on the runway won't be able to exit on time.
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StarAC17
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:09 am

Quoting kl692 (Thread starter):
Also as a passenger how would you feel when you know you are about to land and all of suddenly you are climbing up again. I understand that pilots have the last call but I really think the pilot could have land without a problem.

I would be happy as I would love to experience a go-around  .
As for the pax unless you were making a tight connection why the issue as its only 10 minutes on a flight that is 4.5 hours, also I'm sure any connection would wait in the event of a go-around.

Quoting jetblast (Reply 1):

As for the passengers, I am fairly certain the pilots explained what happened as a go-around isn't a normal occurrence. If I were sitting in the back I'd rather be jetting into the air than plummeting toward the ground...

I think you mean that a go-around IS a normal occurance.
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jetblast
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting kl692 (Reply 7):
Are you telling me that you won't panic or think of anything if you know that you were about to land and all of suddenly you are going up?

If you're asking me personally, no, I wouldn't be. I've been in several go-arounds and because I know what is happening it doesn't bother me. That is not to say the same applies for every other passenger on the airplane. That being said I'd rather be heading back up into the air than plummeting toward the earth.

Quoting kl692 (Reply 7):
As I stated before, the pilots have the last say. Tower will not clear A/C to land if the A/C on the runway won't be able to exit before the other A/C land, or it will tell the A/C about to land to go around if he/she thinks the A/C on the runway won't be able to exit on time.

First you say that you think the pilot could have landed without a problem...apparently the pilot didn't think so, so he went around. Unless you speak with ATC or the actual pilot involved, we probably won't find the answer to your question as to why he went around. ATC makes errors too - they're not flying the airplane, so if the pilot needs to go around, he needs to go around.

Safety is always first - if something looks like it's just not right, generally you don't continue the landing. I'm not a pilot but that is the impression I have.
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jetblast
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:16 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 8):
I think you mean that a go-around IS a normal occurance.

I worded that poorly. When you look at most of the flying public, a go-around is something that is not commonly experienced. It happens every day in the industry but many people never experience one, and as a result may not be sure of what is going on. That's what I meant.
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kl692
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:35 am

Quoting jetblast (Reply 9):
First you say that you think the pilot could have landed without a problem...apparently the pilot didn't think so, so he went around. Unless you speak with ATC or the actual pilot involved, we probably won't find the answer to your question as to why he went around. ATC makes errors too - they're not flying the airplane, so if the pilot needs to go around, he needs to go around.

Yes the pilot could have land the plane but like I also said pilot always have the last say. If tower say land and you don't feel save you go around which by all means it is fine. However my question is that "when is it really ok to go around?" I don't know if you had the chance to listen to the audio, tower did mention that the plane is exiting the runway, do you want to land or go around?

I remember last year when TS was landing on 33R and got told to go around and trust me the pilot was not happy at all and cut corners to line up again and told tower to make sure that he doesn't screw up again

I am not disagreeing with anything you have to say however, I am pretty sure you would have ask yourself the same question if you would have seen it yourself.

regards,
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flood
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:48 am

Quoting kl692 (Reply 3):
While I am sure the pilot will explain to the pax what happen, it won't be right away as the pilot have to make sure everything is running smooth before coming on the PA to explain what happen so for that 30 seconds or so

Or in this case roughly 7 seconds before someone comes on the PA, but I digress... it's just a nice clip of LH doing a go-around at JFK  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzTip4_aFW0&t=2m40s

Does policy vary by airline with regards to who makes the initial announcement? Unfortunately, I've never experienced one, but could certainly see how it may rattle nervous or infrequent flyers.
 
aircanada014
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:55 am

I remember my dad flew the plane to Los Angeles on B767-200 and I was sitting in First Class with my sister, we were landing then speed up again because of the small a/c ahead of us crossing the runway. It was touch and go and go around and land 2nd time.
 
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:16 am

Quoting kl692 (Reply 4):
I agree with you 100% however, I am sure that tower had a better view of what was going on.

Bottom line is, the ultimate decision lies with the pilot in command. There are many factors that lead to a go-around decision and in some instances they are required to go around if certain conditions are not met. In this case, the pilot chose to go around and that was the right decision because he felt it was the right decision, regardless of whether the tower said the runway was clear.

As for the passengers, they think a lot of things. Things that are often exaggerated or flat out wrong. The general public is ignorant to what is going on up front. I've heard so many people claim that the pilot screwed up, the pilot is a terrible pilot, they almost crashed etc. because their flight experienced a go around. Anyone with aviation knowledge knows that go arounds are perfectly normal and are the SAFER option. Regular passengers don't know that, but the crew will inform them of the situation in due time. It's the pilots job to do what he/she thinks is best to land the plane in a safe manner and not to make decisions based on what the passengers behind might think.

[Edited 2012-02-20 18:18:24]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:22 am

The question of judgement and guidelines on this one is important. Of course it's better to be safe than sorry. But at a busy airport there must be some point at which a piulot needs to be prepared to land very shortly after an aircraft leaves the runway. Being overly safe just wouldn't be practical

IIRC there was a management initiative at Qantas a few years back that gave a targetted reduction in go-arounds. It involved some clearly established guidlelines on when it should be performed, (although still left the ultimate judgement with the pilot)
 
dfambro
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 6):
I've never understood being scared during a go-around, because if the aircraft is climbing you are generally safe. But lots of people are. I've been in three go-arounds. Only one was at all out of the ordinary (microcell moving rapidly straight over the runway), but people screamed in all three.

Really? I've only been on one go around, and while there were murmurs, there was no screaming or evidence of palpable fear.
 
qf744fan
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:06 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 6):
It's not a matter of waiting 30 seconds... it's a matter of people being scared.
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 8):
I would be happy as I would love to experience a go-around  .

I was once on an SA 346 that went around very late while approaching PER inbound from JNB, a fairly long flight. PER uses quite a long go around track, so about 2 minutes after the initial manoeuvre the captain came over the PA to explain there was still an aircraft on the runway and that we'd approach again in a few minutes (it seemed to me that we were still nose down and fast, below 1000ft in a 346, but that's another story). I had the time of my life, it was my first go around, and knew what was going on, but after we landed the cabin crew walked around the plane collecting the airsickness bags. I'd never seen anything like that happen, but I guess it's true that many people fear the worst immediately, especially when a.net has shown many examples of go arounds etc being reported in the media as 'tragedy avoided by mere seconds' and the like.
 
kl692
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:14 am

On a side not the little plane happens to touch down almost more that half the length of the run way and it end up at the end of the runway before exiting the runway. Planes normally exit off hotel 2 or 3 off runway 23. Only EK A380 go past hotel 3 sometimes depend on how heavy it is or how strong the wind is.
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:17 am

I've had 10 go arounds (at JFK, JFK, MIA, MIA, ZRH, ZRH, MAN, BHX, PER, NCE) and I don't recall people around me ever looking anxious. Certainly, nobody screamed or threw up. In most cases (but not all) the pilot came on and calmly explained why we couldn't land immediately.
 
briboy
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:21 am

The Lear that landed before AC108 was a Medivac coming in from Europe, and it was pretty obvious that the pilots were not familiar with YYZ. They were taking longer to leave the runway than what was expected or normal for YYZ, which messed up spacing.

What surprised me was how low 108 was before doing the go-around. It was pretty much over the numbers when it made the call for go-around.

Brian
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kl692
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:21 am

Quoting briboy (Reply 20):
What surprised me was how low 108 was before doing the go-around. It was pretty much over the numbers when it made the call for go-around.

So I take it as you were there and this what I really don't understand why go around at that time as it was pretty much about 500ft off the runway. By the way who or what is Medivac and did that plan flew in from Europe? sure must have stop somewhere!
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Whiteguy
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:52 am

Quoting flood (Reply 12):
Does policy vary by airline with regards to who makes the initial announcement? Unfortunately, I've never experienced one, but could certainly see how it may rattle nervous or infrequent flyers.

You make an announcement when it's safely able to do so. There's a lot going on in a go around, priority is to fly the plane.

Quoting kl692 (Reply 11):
However my question is that "when is it really ok to go around?" I don't know if you had the chance to listen to the audio, tower did mention that the plane is exiting the runway, do you want to land or go around?

Regardless of tower says, if the pilot finds it's necessary to go, they go around. It's all about safety.

Quoting kl692 (Reply 11):
I remember last year when TS was landing on 33R and got told to go around and trust me the pilot was not happy at all and cut corners to line up again and told tower to make sure that he doesn't screw up again

That's a bit of a different story. He probably wasn't happy because it was ATC that caused the go around by not giving aircraft enough room. As for "cut corners to line up", he was being vectored by ATC the whole time, it's not like he was doing it on his own.
 
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:57 am

I've been in quite a few go-arounds, many times at RNO, at DEN, PHX, LGA, and the USS Ronald Reagan (actually a bolter, not a go around). I can't remember the others without some more thought. I've never seen anyone get upset. Mostly just folks resigned to another 10 minutes on the plane, maybe some missed connections, and at RNO, a few diversions to PDX and LAS.
 
kl692
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:32 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 22):
As for "cut corners to line up", he was being vectored by ATC the whole time, it's not like he was doing it on his own.

actually, the pilot rejected the heading tower gave him and said that he was heading straight for the marker and believe me he did just that as you can pretty much see him cycling around to line up and I guess he can do that due to maybe low fuel left or whatever reason.
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tribird1011
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:50 am

Quoting kl692 (Reply 24):
actually, the pilot rejected the heading tower gave him and said that he was heading straight for the marker and believe me he did just that as you can pretty much see him cycling around to line up and I guess he can do that due to maybe low fuel left or whatever reason.

Unless he declared a low fuel emergency or requested priority handling due to low fuel status, I seriously doubt that he'd be making up his own flight profile to get back to the runway.

As to why AC108 went around, the tower usually gives what's called expectative clearances. What this means is that they will clear an aircraft to land even though the preceding traffic is still on the runway, but it's expected that when the airplane that is about to land reaches the touchdown point (or just before that) the previous traffic has vacated the runway (crossed the hold short lines).

It might be what happened here, tower expected Lear to clear the runway in time, AC108 went as low as he thought safe, thought Lear hadn't gone far enough, so up and around he went.

This doesn't happen too often in the daytime, but at around midnight or so, and you have 2 airplanes on final, the tower will usually give landing clearance to the second airplane even before the first one touches down...
 
wilco737
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:29 am

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 25):
As to why AC108 went around, the tower usually gives what's called expectative clearances. What this means is that they will clear an aircraft to land even though the preceding traffic is still on the runway, but it's expected that when the airplane that is about to land reaches the touchdown point (or just before that) the previous traffic has vacated the runway (crossed the hold short lines).

Normal procedure in many countries. In Germany though the tower cannot is not allowed to clear someone to land until the runway is actually clear.

The final decision weather to go around rests with the crew on board. If they think it is safer, they should go around, like the AC crew did.

We have a saying: "If in doubt, go around." In many cases it is safer being back in the air than force a landing and risk an incident/ accident.
Maybe in this case all would've gone well, but you never know.

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XT6Wagon
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:45 am

I've been on an aircraft that was over the fence, but not to the piano keys yet when the pilot went round. In this case the pilot didn't have a choice as the secret service "closed" the runway right before we arrived on it... While it was a "What the Hoof" situation, none of the other passengers seemed that bothered as it was smooth and clearly things were headed the right way. In other words that we were stable, underpower, and climbing was reassuring that nothing bad was happening.

Which is the important thing. A landing thats unstable, filled with strange bangs, or other issues is far scarier than a properly done go around. Its not the fall that kills you, its the sudden stop at the end, and so most people are instinctively happier when that sudden stop is getting farther away.
 
wilco737
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:52 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 27):
none of the other passengers seemed that bothered as it was smooth and clearly things were headed the right way.

From the moment you start to climb it is similar to a take off. But the sudden and not expected increase of power is something which many passengers scare. Of course not the regular a.nutter 
People expect a spool down of the engines and then a touch down and not the spool up and pitch up of the nose. So it is a surprise and not everybody is happy about it.

wilco737
  
 
UALWN
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:28 am

I've been in two go-arounds, both in a Lufthansa A320, both in BCN. In both cases the lead FA came immediately on the PA to say something like "As you have seen, the captain has elected to abort the landing, please remain seated with your seat-belt fastened, blah blah." In one occasion the captain came up soon thereafter teling us that we had to go around because an IB plane (he made a point of telling us it was an IB plane...) had failed to clear the runway on time. In the other occasion the captain said nothing, but the reason for the GA should have been clear to everybody: strong cross wind was sending the plane all over the place. Only after we landed on the second try did the captain tell us about the cross wind, and how it didn't look safe to land on the first try but it did in the second (although to me both looked equally iffy).

In both cases, some people around me looked confused, and maybe concerned, but not panicked. I actually enjoyed the first GA, not so much the second, or actually, I should say I didn't enjoy the landing on the second...
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kl692
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:44 am

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 25):
As to why AC108 went around, the tower usually gives what's called expectative clearances. What this means is that they will clear an aircraft to land even though the preceding traffic is still on the runway, but it's expected that when the airplane that is about to land reaches the touchdown point (or just before that) the previous traffic has vacated the runway (crossed the hold short lines)

Thanks for the explaining. I have seen about 5 go arounds in Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 27):
Of course not the regular a.nutter

I love flying and I go in and out of the country just for the sakes of flying but I don't know if I will be welcoming Go Around.

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 25):
Unless he declared a low fuel emergency or requested priority handling due to low fuel status, I seriously doubt that he'd be making up his own flight profile to get back to the runway.

I guess you can say he was giving approach A but rejected it and requested approach B. How is it that?

[Edited 2012-02-21 03:18:22]
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flood
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 22):
Quoting flood (Reply 12):
Does policy vary by airline with regards to who makes the initial announcement? Unfortunately, I've never experienced one, but could certainly see how it may rattle nervous or infrequent flyers.

You make an announcement when it's safely able to do so. There's a lot going on in a go around, priority is to fly the plane.

Obviously, yes. My question was in regard to who makes such announcements, not when... ie if it's standard practice for such announcements to be made by cabin crew or someone in the pointy end. From previous replies, however, it appears the procedure varies by airline.
 
boeingorbust
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 6):

It's not a matter of waiting 30 seconds... it's a matter of people being scared.

I've never understood being scared during a go-around, because if the aircraft is climbing you are generally safe. But lots of people are. I've been in three go-arounds. Only one was at all out of the ordinary (microcell moving rapidly straight over the runway), but people screamed in all three.

I personally have never seen people scream or even get weird looks on a go around. I've had them where I can immediately tell I'm in a go around and nobody says or does anything. The Captain explains what's going on and why, apologizes for the delay and we're on the ground 10 mins later. No biggy!

And of course safety first. Remember if there are any incursions the responsibility lies on the Captain not ATC. (Going back to my PPL exam days  )
 
speedbird217
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:49 pm

I once was in a Go-Around in STR on a CRJ from LH Cityline. We went up again some 100 ft above the ground and after the aircraft was clean and things were sorted out in the Flight Deck, the Captain came on and told us that we had to Go-Around because of bad weather and wind changes. We then approached from the other side and landed shortly after. Nobody on board seemed anxious, and of course I enjoyed it.

In this case, it is always good for people who don't know what's going on to look what all the people in the suits are doing, as they are usually frequent flyers and often know a lot about flying. If they look worried, it's time for you to worry too  
 
FlyHossD
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting kl692 (Reply 21):
Quoting briboy (Reply 20):
What surprised me was how low 108 was before doing the go-around. It was pretty much over the numbers when it made the call for go-around.

So I take it as you were there and this what I really don't understand why go around at that time as it was pretty much about 500ft off the runway. By the way who or what is Medivac and did that plan flew in from Europe? sure must have stop somewhere!

If the go around was performed from over "the numbers" then the normal altitude would be 50 feet. A normal glideslope descends 300'/1 nautical mile. So 500' would be 1.67 miles from the end of the runway. In this case, the go around was apparently performed from much closer to the runway and therefore, much closer to the ground.

If the Captain or F.O. felt a go-around was necessary, then it was. The "Pilot-in-Command" has the ultimate responsibility for the safe operation of the flight.

Many years ago, I heard a female passenger seated near me scream during a go-around (HA? DC-10 at LAX). In talking with her husband, then her before the landing, I learned that she had the impression that runways had a reservation like system and that no other aircraft could possibly be on the runway when it was our turn to land. Given the lack of education provided by the airline industry, I wasn't that surprised by her impression. How else would she or any other passenger know (anything different)?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:29 pm

Quoting kl692 (Reply 7):
Are you telling me that you won't panic or think of anything if you know that you were about to land and all of suddenly you are going up?

As I stated before, the pilots have the last say. Tower will not clear A/C to land if the A/C on the runway won't be able to exit before the other A/C land, or it will tell the A/C about to land to go around if he/she thinks the A/C on the runway won't be able to exit on time.

May I ask how often you spot at Pearson ?

Go-arounds at Pearson are very common, just like any other airport.

I just watched a youtube video with ATC piped in from liveATC.net, and the tower cleared turkish to land this way:

"Turkish 17 heavy, Toronto Tower Goodday, #2 following an E190 a mile final, Winds 010, 21 gusting 26, cleared to land Runway 06 right".

Clearly, this informs the crew that there is a plane in front, expected to vacate the runway before Turkish touches down.

Quoting briboy (Reply 20):
What surprised me was how low 108 was before doing the go-around. It was pretty much over the numbers when it made the call for go-around.


A few years ago, I witnessed a MyTravel (I THINK it was a MyTravel) A330 literally over the Piano keys when he did the go-around at Pearson - I actually thought he was going to touch down and then go around. I believe he started the go-around well before the Piano Keys, but that's where we noticed the bottom end of the descent ending where the upward momentum started to occur. I know there were other A.net members here who were there with me, and I'm sure they can attest to just how low the plane was.

Again, PIC was clearly not comfortable with something.

Quoting kl692 (Reply 30):
Thanks for the explaining. I have seen about 5 go arounds in

Go-arounds are common at ANY airport. They're not generally newsworthy. Go sit near at Buttonville, or any airport where training is going on and you'll see that there's a reason why it's drilled into pilot's heads to go around if something isn't right - unless there is a fuel or fire (or something deemed critical), going around when something is amiss is the right call to do.

As for the comment about being scared or concerned about why you are going around, and having the crew 'advise' the passengers..personally as a passenger, I'd be more concerned that the crew was wanting to chat with us versus flying the aircraft. I'd rather them focus on the task at hand, and when things are stable and they have a moment, THEN communicate. However, it's not needed. I've given my trust to them the second I step onboard their aircraft. I believe they will do everything necessary to get my ass on the ground safely.

Do you ask the bus driver why he deviates from the highway when he does? No. Because they're professionals and you place the trust in them to do whats right.

Remember one thing KL, the pilots have families and children and loved ones too - they want to get home safe just like you do.

I suppose there will always be fatalists and people who think they're gonna die on a go-around, just like there are in every-day life.

1011yyz

[Edited 2012-02-21 07:31:45]

[Edited 2012-02-21 07:32:40]

[Edited 2012-02-21 07:34:38]
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
tribird1011
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:08 pm

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting kl692 (Reply 30):
I guess you can say he was giving approach A but rejected it and requested approach B. How is it that?

If no emergency is declared or priority handling requested, then the pilot cannot reject a clearance just because he wants to do something else. He can reject a clearance, but he needs a valid reason to do so, after all, he's not the only one in the sky.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting kl692 (Thread starter):
My questions is that when is it really ok to go around

Yes

Quoting kl692 (Thread starter):
I understand that pilots have the last call but I really think the pilot could have land without a problem.

So he didn't feel comfortable. Nowhere does it say he HAS to land. If he doesn't feel comfortable to do it he has every legal right to do a go-around.

Quoting kl692 (Thread starter):
Also as a passenger how would you feel when you know you are about to land and all of suddenly you are climbing up again.
Quoting kl692 (Reply 7):

Are you telling me that you won't panic or think of anything if you know that you were about to land and all of suddenly you are going up?

Pax sometimes don't even notice go-arounds. They're that oblivious.

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 36):

If no emergency is declared or priority handling requested, then the pilot cannot reject a clearance just because he wants to do something else

Clearly you are not familiar with the term "unable"
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 8):
also I'm sure any connection would wait in the event of a go-around.

Good luck with that!

Quoting flood (Reply 12):
Or in this case roughly 7 seconds before someone comes on the PA, but I digress... it's just a nice clip of LH doing a go-around at JFK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzTip4_aFW0&t=2m40s

Awesome. But hey, don't these people know that "the use of electronic devices is now prohibited". Though I'd be more worried about getting in trouble with the authorities than having the plane crash because of my camera being in use.

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 36):
If no emergency is declared or priority handling requested, then the pilot cannot reject a clearance just because he wants to do something else. He can reject a clearance, but he needs a valid reason to do so, after all, he's not the only one in the sky.

Please explain me how a not fully cleared runway is not an emergency situation. Not going around in that situation would be similar to refusing to hit your brakes on your car when someone does something bizarre in front of you just because you're followed by a long line of cars and you're not the only one on the road....

I can only approve the pilot's action, rather safe than sorry.... The pilot could not exactly know what was going on in the small plane that was on the runway, so he erred on the side of caution.
God forbid, but this thread would be at part 4 or 5 already, had any collision occurred.
When I doubt... go running!
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting kl692 (Thread starter):
Also as a passenger how would you feel when you know you are about to land and all of suddenly you are climbing up again.

I would probably think, as I have previously: "ah, a go-around - cool."

Quoting dfambro (Reply 16):
Really? I've only been on one go around, and while there were murmurs, there was no screaming or evidence of palpable fear.

Same here. Last time it happened I don't even think anyone murmured.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
xjramper
Posts: 2318
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:10 am

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:00 pm

Go-arounds are not "scary" regardless of how far you are from landing. I find them neat and actually relatively comforting that the pilot chose to go around as opposed to causing an incident/accident. I experienced my first go-around in a 73H from RDU-ATL. Quite honestly I didn't even know that we were going around until I looked outside and saw the airport passing by.

I would be a hell of a lot more worried if we had to RTO quite like the LH RTO in JFK a few weeks back.
Look ma' no hands!
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 37):
Clearly you are not familiar with the term "unable"

"Unable" to turn to heading assigned by ATC? Sure you can say it but you better have a very good reason why you can't comply. In the example of an aircraft on a go around and returning for another approach that wouldn't be an acceptable excuse!

This isn't Sulley flying through a flock of geese and landing in a river.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 38):
Please explain me how a not fully cleared runway is not an emergency situation.

Give me a break. Another aircraft on the runway is NOT an emergency situation. It is a common occurance that happens a thousand times a day around the world. Don"t turn this into something its not.


Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 38):
The pilot could not exactly know what was going on in the small plane that was on the runway, so he erred on the side of caution.

And the pilot doesn't care whats going on in the other aircaft. The only thing the pilots cares about is there is another aitrcraft on the runway he is about to land on. It is not looking like the aircraft is going to clear in time and saftey dictates a go around. Like I said, happens all the time.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting kl692 (Reply 7):
Tower will not clear A/C to land if the A/C on the runway won't be able to exit before the other A/C land, or it will tell the A/C about to land to go around if he/she thinks the A/C on the runway won't be able to exit on time.

Yes, because ATC errors never occur.  
Quoting kl692 (Reply 11):
I don't know if you had the chance to listen to the audio, tower did mention that the plane is exiting the runway, do you want to land or go around?

Sounds to me like a normal situation, as ATC asked their choice.

Quoting PM (Reply 19):

I've had 10 go arounds (at JFK, JFK, MIA, MIA, ZRH, ZRH, MAN, BHX, PER, NCE) and I don't recall people around me ever looking anxious. Certainly, nobody screamed or threw up. In most cases (but not all) the pilot came on and calmly explained why we couldn't land immediately.

We had a rejected takeoff once in SEA that I felt was actually a little scarier. Not the rejected part, per se, but the fact that the pilot came on and said something to the affect of "Well folks, we had a little gremlin up here in the cockpit.....we're gonna try this again." Ya, THAT was reassuring.  

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting kl692 (Thread starter):
My questions is that when is it really ok to go around

Always

Quoting kl692 (Thread starter):
in this case tower clear him to land knew that the land AC will be off the runway before AC 108 touch down.

No he didn't. The guys in the tower can make educated guesses on whether an aircraft will be clear, but they have no way of knowing for sure.

Quoting kl692 (Thread starter):
I understand that pilots have the last call but I really think the pilot could have land without a problem.

But you're not privy to everything that's going on in the cockpit and what they're looking at.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
tribird1011
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:08 pm

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 38):
If no emergency is declared or priority handling requested, then the pilot cannot reject a clearance just because he wants to do something else. He can reject a clearance, but he needs a valid reason to do so, after all, he's not the only one in the sky.


Please explain me how a not fully cleared runway is not an emergency situation. Not going around in that situation would be similar to refusing to hit your brakes on your car when someone does something bizarre in front of you just because you're followed by a long line of cars and you're not the only one on the road....

Clearly you took that quote out of context. That was in reply to Kl692 that the TS pilot (not related to this topic, but he mentioned it) that after he went around, he refused the ATC clearance and flew his own headings to return to landing.

As for going around because there is an aircraft on the runway is NOT an emergency, an inconvenience perhaps, but definitely not an emergency. And yes, refusing a landing clearance because teh pilot feels that the aircraft on the runway will not clear in time IS a valid reason to refuse landing clearance... I'll go further and say that the pilot CAN accept the landing clearance, but can still go around if he's not confortable with the situation!!
 
mikect
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 4:27 pm

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting kl692 (Reply 7):
Are you telling me that you won't panic or think of anything if you know that you were about to land and all of suddenly you are going up?

Nope. Going up unexpectedly is always better than going down unexpectedly.  


Quoting kl692 (Reply 11):
my question is that "when is it really ok to go around?"

It's always ok to go around. It's never ok to land in a situation you're even a little bit uncomfortable with. I'm hardly a 767 pilot, but even in the Cessna, my general rule is if I even have to think about it, then I should be doing it.



Quoting Boeingorbust (Reply 32):
I personally have never seen people scream or even get weird looks on a go around.

I've had two go arounds flying commercially. The first was in VIE in near 0/0 conditions on an OS 767. We were on approach, and the next thing you heard was the engines spooling up and back up we went. I thought we were still early in the approach until I caught a glimpse of the approach lights as we passed over them and realized we were probably only 100-150 feet off the ground. Most people barely noticed, probably because they couldn't see anything. Given their workload after what was probably a CATII or III approach, I was surprised the pilot came on pretty quickly to explain that there was an "indication during the approach" and we'd have to go back and try again. His explanation in German was much longer, but my German isn't so great.

The second one was on a DL 737 at LGA after a gusty attempt at the Expressway Visual (my favorite ride outside of an amusement park!). It was pretty late and low after the final turn past Citi Field and it looked like we overshot the turn. The go around was a pretty dramatic climb/bank thing over the water and even though I was having fun, other people in the cabin came right out of a bad movie. A lot of "oh my god!"s and a couple people praying out loud. I really think it takes just one and they get everyone else worked up. A flight attendant came on pretty quickly and tried to play it down as much as possible to calm people down. Personally I was just happy to get the view twice.  


Quoting kl692 (Reply 30):
I love flying and I go in and out of the country just for the sakes of flying but I don't know if I will be welcoming Go Around.

If you love flying, you should try to learn a little bit about what scares you (which is I'm sure what's happening here). Knowledge goes a long way toward overcoming fears. Knowing what that weird noise is, or the what's involved during a go around will calm your fears and let you enjoying the experience more.
 
futureualpilot
Posts: 2406
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 10:52 am

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting MikeCT (Reply 45):
If you love flying, you should try to learn a little bit about what scares you (which is I'm sure what's happening here). Knowledge goes a long way toward overcoming fears. Knowing what that weird noise is, or the what's involved during a go around will calm your fears and let you enjoying the experience more.

  

Agreed, if you have the time after a flight, and the pilots are still there, ask about something that you're not sure of or want to learn about. Most of us love talking about our airplanes, and I know on the rare occasion I've had passengers ask, I've been more than happy to answer. There is no such thing as a stupid question.


Keep in mind, your perspective is different than that of the pilots, and they will have more information available to them at the time than you will. Likely they've put thousands of hours in, and have seen what works and what doesn't and know what their own personal comfort level is when it comes to safety. A lot of things "look" good in aviation but that doesn't mean they're safe or reasonable to go through with.

[Edited 2012-02-21 12:11:09]
Life is better when you surf.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2844
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:05 pm

There are a lot of misconceptions here about go arounds. I usually stick to tech ops but I'll make a rare appearance in a thread here.

First, authority lies with the pilot in command. ATC can tell us to do whatever they want. If we don't think it's safe, we say "unable" and done. This doesn't come up very often, but sometimes it does. More often than not it's because a controller wants to squeeze more in than what is deemed safe. A great example would be exiting the runway early when it's raining/snowing and we can't slow down as fast as they like. ATC controllers have their attention diverted in a number of directions. The pilots in the cockpit have one focus: the runway and their environment. That's why they're in charge.

Second, go arounds aren't anything major. In fact, the are a normal procedure (as opposed to abnormal or emergency) at both airlines I've flown for and every other airline I am familiar with. We do them every year in the simulator and in real life. As a passenger you might experience a couple in your lifetime, but I fly sometimes upwards of 20 legs in a week. I used to average about 3 a year but being based at LGA for the last few months that has become about 1 a month.

From day 1 as a student pilot you are taught that if you don't like something, go around and try again. There are many, many accidents that have resulted from someone trying to force the issue. Our SOP states we can go around at any time prior to the thrust reversers being deployed and I have. Oddly enough, once was at YYZ when an A330 (I think it was jet airways) crossed the hold short down the runway from where I was. It didn't look like they were going to stop. I was in the flare, and decided to go around. By the time I applied GA thrust, the mains touched down. As we went about 500 feet above them I could see that their nose was over the hold short line. Would it have been a disaster? Probably not. Was I 100% sure I was safer hundreds of feet above the mentioned aircraft? Yes.

Third, YYZ is a confusing airport if you're not used to it. It's a very large, very busy place with lots of complex intersections and poor (non-standard) signs. Add to that the large number of international carriers flying there that don't have english as a first language and you really have to be on your toes. I have been there at least a hundred times in 4 years and it still confuses me sometimes.
DMI
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting kl692 (Thread starter):
Also as a passenger how would you feel when you know you are about to land and all of suddenly you are climbing up again.

That happens many times every day for a variety of reasons. Nothing unusual at all.
 
aklrno
Posts: 1548
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:18 pm

RE: AC108 Choose To Go Around

Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:46 pm

I just remembered one more go around where I was far calmer than most people would be. I don't know how I forgot to list it. It was my very first solo flight, in a C172 at Santa Monica. The tower told me to go around because I was following a business jet and he was uncomfortable with the possible wake turbulence. So for my first solo I got two approaches and one landing. My instructor had me practice that very scenario, so I had no trouble at all. Back in those days Hughes airport was still operating, so to my immediate left I had two airports, Hughes and LAX. It was a busy place.

Do any of you commercial pilots ever have to go around to avoid wake turbulence?

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