DL Axing LGW

planesailing · Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:42 pm

Have heard today that after 30+ years, Delta will be leaving Gatwick in April with the DL11 being moved to Heathrow. Should show in the booking systems shortly.

Rumors are that the Miami flight is being removed to allow for an early morning Atlanta rotation. As far as I was aware, the Miami and Boston slots were only available for their respective routes and must be returned to BA AA if not used on these routes. Anyone know if Delta have received a morning slot from Air France or KLM or has been out to the open market to buy one?

miaami · Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:09 pm

DL's Miami experiment has not gone very well if this is true. If they drop MIA/LHR I doubt we will see MIA/MCO and MIA/TPA last very much longer. I'm not sure how thier MIA/LAX flight is doing but we could see DL retreat back to just hub flights.

LGWflyer · Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:18 pm

Ouch! I always thought this may happen one day. I thought DL were doing well on this route and they were suppose to be putting the A330 back on this route again in March. Now with them going maybe could we see maybe US Airways expand more?

Anyway it would be a shame for them to go, quite some history for them on this route. Wasn't this one of DL's first TATL routes or something like that?

[Edited 2012-02-21 06:24:39]

WA707atMSP · Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 2):
Wasn't this one of DL's first TATL routes or something like that?

ATL-LGW was DL's first transatlantic route. DL began service in April 1978 with L-1011-250s leased from TWA, pending delivery of DL's own L-1011-500s.

DL was awarded ATL-LGW at the same time Braniff was awarded DFW-LGW. Pan Am was awarded IAH-LGW two years later.

The British authority for LGW-IAH / ATL / DFW was originally held by British Caledonian.

LGWflyer · Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 3):

ATL-LGW was DL's first transatlantic route. DL began service in April 1978 with L-1011-250s leased from TWA, pending delivery of DL's own L-1011-500s.

DL was awarded ATL-LGW at the same time Braniff was awarded DFW-LGW. Pan Am was awarded IAH-LGW two years later.

The British authority for LGW-IAH / ATL / DFW was originally held by British Caledonian.

Oh right I see, well there is definitely history here. Shame they are finally going to leave for LHR altogether now.

avi8 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:06 pm

What might happen with those spare 767's?

rojo · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting planesailing (Thread starter):
Rumors are that the Miami flight is being removed to allow for an early morning Atlanta rotation. As far as I was aware, the Miami and Boston slots were only available for their respective routes and must be returned to BA AA if not used on these routes. Anyone know if Delta have received a morning slot from Air France or KLM or has been out to the open market to buy one?

DL got the MIA/BOS to LHR route authorities and slots when AA/BA/IB ATI was approved. Those were the markets identified by regulators where AA/BA had a considerably high market share and could result in very high fares for consumers. DL decided to operate those flights not because it thought it will be able to compete against AA/BA, but because DL wanted to get the slots premium slots at LHR. The requirement was to operate both routes for 2 years and then the slots will be owned by DL permantently (allowing them switch them to any other route).

DL's effort to make MIA a focus city has failed again. AA is too powerful in MIA and will protect its turf at all cost.

jfk777 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:28 pm

Quoting rojo (Reply 6):
DL got the MIA/BOS to LHR route authorities and slots when AA/BA/IB ATI was approved. Those were the markets identified by regulators where AA/BA had a considerably high market share and could result in very high fares for consumers. DL decided to operate those flights not because it thought it will be able to compete against AA/BA, but because DL wanted to get the slots premium slots at LHR. The requirement was to operate both routes for 2 years and then the slots will be owned by DL permantently (allowing them switch them to any other route).

Wasn't the slots for 10 years and then they went back to BA/AA ? DL is not going to OWN the slots.

skipness1E · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:44 pm

Wow glad I decided to try DL11/12 in March on my way to LAX. Surprised they lasted as long as they did after 2008. That leaves US on LGW-CLT as the sole US carrier at LGW, Sun Country doesn't operate in the same market.

fxramper · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:49 pm

When I was commuting to school I much preferred LGW over LHR. I used DFW/STL-LGW at that time. Any frequent flyer will tell you LHR is a mess. I'm confused why US carriers moved away from LGW in recent years.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8):
That leaves US on LGW-CLT as the sole US carrier

PSU.DTW.SCE · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting rojo (Reply 6):
DL's effort to make MIA a focus city has failed again. AA is too powerful in MIA and will protect its turf at all cost

Before making that assumption, let's wait and see if the "rumor" of the MIA flight is true.

mayor · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 3):
ATL-LGW was DL's first transatlantic route. DL began service in April 1978 with L-1011-250s leased from TWA, pending delivery of DL's own L-1011-500s.

Unless I'm mistaken, the Tristars leased from TW were -200s.......the -250s were converted from domestic -100s that DL had.

miaami · Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 10):

Before making that assumption, let's wait and see if the "rumor" of the MIA flight is true.

I believe the MIA/LHR slot can not be moved before 2013, if at all. I think they lease this slot from AA/BA and if they don't use the slot it goes back to AA/BA. Not sure though. DL may not want to give up that slot for now. we shall see.

FURUREFA · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 10):
Before making that assumption, let's wait and see if the "rumor" of the MIA flight is true.

It is indeed true, unfortunately. It will be in the next GDS load.

rojo · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
Wasn't the slots for 10 years and then they went back to BA/AA ? DL is not going to OWN the slots.

My understanding was that as long as one airline applied and operated LHR-BOS/MIA non-stop for 2 years, it will get to keep the slots, otherwise the slots will go back to BA. This is the original topic:

DL Gets Gov O.K. To Start MIA/BOS To LHR (by LIPZ Nov 10 2010 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=4979588&searchid=4981326&s=AA%2FBA+ATI+discussions#ID4981326

AA/BA/IB: ATI Discussions (by commavia Aug 30 2010 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=4914580&searchid=4917104&s=AA%2FBA+ATI+#ID4917104

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 10):
Before making that assumption, let's wait and see if the "rumor" of the MIA flight is true.

I don't base my assumption only on the MIA-LHR performance

Can you please answere the following question: How many of the original MIA to TPA/MCO/JAX flights are still being operated?

MIA-MCO started with 5 x day
MIA-TPA started with 5 x day
MIA-JAX started with 4 x day

According to DL, these flights were timed to facilitate new connections to trans-Atlantic flights from Miami (including AF, KL and AZ).

burnsie28 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:11 pm

As noted by others, MIA-LHR will be moved to ATL-LHR effective 17APR. This will bump up ATL-LHR from 11x weekly to 18x weekly, now 100% of all London flights will be 764's.

ripcordd · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:16 pm

makes $$$ to move everything to LHR from LGW

miaami · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:20 pm

Quoting planesailing (Thread starter):
I don't base my assumption only on the MIA-LHR performance

Can you please answere the following question: How many of the original MIA to TPA/MCO/JAX flights are still being operated?

MIA-MCO started with 5 x day
MIA-TPA started with 5 x day
MIA-JAX started with 4 x day

According to DL, these flights were timed to facilitate new connections to trans-Atlantic flights from Miami (including AF, KL and AZ).

Effective April 2012 you can also add to the list:
MIA-MEM - Cancelled
MIA-CVG - Cancelled
MIA-MSP - reduced to 1 daily

I would not be suprised to see MIA-LAX dropped as well

UAL777UK · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:26 pm

Surprised they stayed at LGW for so long.

Looks like MIA/BOS - LHR on DL have not worked out as planned and thats an understatement but fair play for giving it a go.

TeamintheSky · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 9):
Any frequent flyer will tell you LHR is a mess. I'm confused why US carriers moved away from LGW in recent years.

With all do respect, I live in East London, fly back to the states half a dozen more times a year on DL (I do other flying as well) and prefer flying out of LHR much more than LGW. Nothing against LGW at all, but I prefer T4 to the North Terminal and also dislike the old 763 metal DL always has on that route. Price wise, the flight was always a bit cheaper out of LGW, but not when you factor in the cab to the airport or to the train station and then the train to the airport. LHR is much easier with its Tube access.

I am actually excited that DL will be picking up another flight to ATL from LHR.

southwest737500 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 2):

I would love to see this happen but they need to beef up CLT

Also they are full with this S12 and they don't receive any more A332 until next year.

Personally I think that would be risky. I wouldn't mine seeing a flight from PHX to LON to FRA

skipness1E · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 2):
Ouch! I always thought this may happen one day. I thought DL were doing well on this route and they were suppose to be putting the A330 back on this route again in March. Now with them going maybe could we see maybe US Airways expand more?

They are, however they do better out of LONDON from their refurbished base at T4 at LHR where Skyteam partners and lounges are in place. US Airways have GOT to be next surely!

slcdeltarumd11 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:49 pm

Typical a.net

-EVERY mia to europe flight is full of premium passengers, packed, and should be increased.........dreams more than reality
-Delta is building a MIA hub............. Ill believe that when the LAX hub people claim is coming for years is rolling

MAV88 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 22):
Typical a.net

-EVERY mia to europe flight is full of premium passengers, packed, and should be increased.........dreams more than reality
-Delta is building a MIA hub............. Ill believe that when the LAX hub people claim is coming for years is rolling

A lot of people on here feel that Miami is a high premium market and that in North America, there are a very small number of markets that can match the yields MIA provides to the carriers.

Rumblings on airliners.net have MIA being able to support flights to a whole slew of cities, IST, DXB, WAW, CPH, ARN, VIE, AMM, TLV, CPT.

Correct me if I am wrong, but via what has been posted on this site, one could gather that the South Florida market is a top 10 market in North America to every continent in the world when looking at passenger numbers.

[Edited 2012-02-21 09:06:22]

klwright69 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:24 pm

I never even knew DL still flew to LGW. I remember CO had a split operation for some time after landing at LHR. This situation did not last long. I wonder what took DL so long.

It should not surprise anyone that DL has experienced problems on LHR-MIA. Beefing up ATL-LHR sounds infinitely more logical.

skymiler · Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:34 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 10):
Before making that assumption, let's wait and see if the "rumor" of the MIA flight is true.

I did round trip MIA - LHR recently and it was PACKED in coach and 90% in J -- so much so that they moved 3 pax up to J as they need the Y seats.!

Just an observation -- I have no idea what the fare yields might have been, or if this was unusual.

planesailing · Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting rojo (Reply 6):

DL got the MIA/BOS to LHR route authorities and slots when AA/BA/IB ATI was approved. Those were the markets identified by regulators where AA/BA had a considerably high market share and could result in very high fares for consumers. DL decided to operate those flights not because it thought it will be able to compete against AA/BA, but because DL wanted to get the slots premium slots at LHR. The requirement was to operate both routes for 2 years and then the slots will be owned by DL permantently (allowing them switch them to any other route).

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
Wasn't the slots for 10 years and then they went back to BA/AA ? DL is not going to OWN the slots.

Quoting miaami (Reply 12):
I believe the MIA/LHR slot can not be moved before 2013, if at all. I think they lease this slot from AA/BA and if they don't use the slot it goes back to AA/BA. Not sure though. DL may not want to give up that slot for now. we shall see.

Quoting rojo (Reply 14):
My understanding was that as long as one airline applied and operated LHR-BOS/MIA non-stop for 2 years, it will get to keep the slots, otherwise the slots will go back to BA. This is the original topic:

The slots are currently out for tender for the 2012/2013 period, see http://www.acl-uk.org/UserFiles/File...roposed%20text%2014feb12%20_2_.pdf

When the ATI was approved, it was for 3 NYC slots, 2 BOS slots, 1 DFW slot and 1 MIA slot. The fact that for the 2012/2013 period 3 NYC and 1 each of BOS, DFW and MIA slots are available suggests that DL has returned the MIA and one BOS slot back for reallocation under the JTI.

There is a website for the JTI allocation here - http://www.competitionrx.com/BA-AA-IB-Alliance-Trustee.php

Under the FAQ's, "Competitors can apply for the slots in advance of each summer and winter scheduling season, until they are all allocated." and "The slots are to be released by the parties on the basis of long-term leases. The slots can only be used to operate flights on the routes of concern throughout the term of the lease."

From my understanding that reads that should the airline (DL in this case) decide to pull from the route, the slots go back to open allocation to anyone who is interested in flying the route. They do not remain with the airline after 2 years, anyhow, it has only been a year since DL launched the routes as the first available IATA season for these routes was S11.

With this in mind, it begs the question where DL have got a morning LHR slot from to operate DL11 from there.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:39 pm

Frankly, I don't care about the performance that apparently EVERYONE on a.net knows, I was making the comment that let's wait to actually get confirmation on the LGW / LHR changes before making the proclamation of how DL "failed" at MIA.

This thread started with what sounded like a credible rumor, that was followed-up with another rumor. There are some other "DL insiders" that posted more credible information about what pending changes are in store for LGW/LHR.

Then there is still the open question about the terms/conditions of the LHR slots.

I think its funny how people on a.net seem to think the airline business is like cheering for a football team.

burnsie28 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 24):
I never even knew DL still flew to LGW. I remember CO had a split operation for some time after landing at LHR. This situation did not last long. I wonder what took DL so long.

A few carriers after the London swaps happened continued dual operations, for instance, NW ran DTW-LGW with 752 after they got the LHR slots.

burnsie28 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 27):
Frankly, I don't care about the performance that apparently EVERYONE on a.net knows, I was making the comment that let's wait to actually get confirmation on the LGW / LHR changes before making the proclamation of how DL "failed" at MIA.

FWIW its confirmed that MIA-LHR is being dropped and moved to ATL-LHR.

panamair · Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 15):
now 100% of all London flights will be 764's

Wonder which 764 route(s) gets an aircraft type change since MIA-LHR was scheduled for a 76T this summer, and the ATL-LGW was supposed to be an A332, and one of the JFK-LHR was also going 76T (to rotate with the MIA-LHR 76T).

planesailing · Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 29):
FWIW its confirmed that MIA-LHR is being dropped and moved to ATL-LHR.

How is this possible considering the conditions of the MIA slot lease?

skipness1E · Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:15 pm

Both CO and NW dropped dual ops within a year of LHR opening. Wonder if we might yet see more variety than the B764 at LHR.

peanuts · Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:24 pm

Any of the "told you so" crowd would be wise to also consider the circumstances we are in, early 2012.
DL very much has a finger on the pulse of this terrible economy. The outlook so far for this year looks very grim, including oil prices. Stocks are tumbling today. Geopolitical changes are very much into play here.
DL needs to control short term challenges so they don't balloon into long term issues down the road. Shutting down LGW fits perfectly into that line of thinking. A (temporary) retreat from MIA also fits into that picture...

Anything else is just chest thumping without any sense of the current very fluid situations in the markets.

USAirALB · Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:46 pm

I seem to vaguely remember that US may have so corporate contract with a company in the LGW and CLT areas, which is why they still fly to LGW. I don't know for sure though.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 32):

As did US, who flew PHL-LGW with a 752 for a short time after starting LHR.

sxf24 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 34):
I seem to vaguely remember that US may have so corporate contract with a company in the LGW and CLT areas, which is why they still fly to LGW. I don't know for sure though.

I'm pretty sure it is because US can't afford to buy another slot in LHR to use for CLT.

DL has the flexibility of using slots from AF/KL/AZ since LHR service is part of the TATL JV.

USAirALB · Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 35):
I'm pretty sure it is because US can't afford to buy another slot in LHR to use for CLT.

I highly doubt that is the case.

jblake1 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:25 pm

Any thoughts on the addition of DL 262 DTW-LHR on April 24th running Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. Seems odd to have two 767s leaving for Heathrow within 40 minutes of each other from Detroit. DL 18 & DL 262

FlyPNS1 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:32 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 33):
DL very much has a finger on the pulse of this terrible economy. The outlook so far for this year looks very grim, including oil prices. Stocks are tumbling today.

The outlook is far from grim. While it's true oil prices are rising and causing some pain, the economy is also improving and business travel has been getting much stronger. DL's management has said the same. They've seen rapid strengthening in business travel.

However, in the case of MIA-LHR, all DL is getting is leisure traffic. This is no surprise as most business travelers will naturally gravitate toward AA/BA for business travel because they offer the superior schedules and frequencies.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 33):
A (temporary) retreat from MIA also fits into that picture...

If DL is in fact retreating, I doubt it will be temporary. There's no money to be made in this market for DL and DL has known this all along. Keep in mind too that over time AA will become a tougher competitor in this market as they lower their costs, improve their product and further build their relationship with BA.

VictorKilo · Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:27 pm

I seem to remember something about the MIA-LHR and DFW-LHR being able to be moved to MIA/DFW-XXX-LHR service after an initial period of time. Are we at the end of this waiting period? Was this the plan all along?

burnsie28 · Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:32 pm

Quoting planesailing (Reply 31):
How is this possible considering the conditions of the MIA slot lease?

No idea how the legal aspect of it works, but all I can do is see the change.

IrishAyes · Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 39):
I seem to remember something about the MIA-LHR and DFW-LHR being able to be moved to MIA/DFW-XXX-LHR service after an initial period of time. Are we at the end of this waiting period? Was this the plan all along?

On AA/BA? Why would they do this? DFW and MIA are very strong performers for the combined airline on flights to LHR....why add a stopover? Unless this went completely over my head.....

peanuts · Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:53 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 38):
The outlook is far from grim.

Let's put it this way: the improvements the airlines have seen is promising but it is not rock solid. The airline industry gets exposed to way many more variables as compared to some other industries.
DL executives may talk a positive game yet they would be foolish not to do so cautiously. And they are. They are extremely cautious.
Their recent (3-5 yrs) decisions give me some hope that they are very long term minded actually. It's a good thing.
A company that adapts quickly, makes short term changes for long term sustainability, is a competitive company.

LGW's writing was on the wall, even if "executives" promised to stay. Same with CVG's and MEM's status, eventually.

planesailing · Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 40):
No idea how the legal aspect of it works, but all I can do is see the change.

A search of Heathrow schedules now shows a DL39 09:45 departure to ATL. This is 0:15 later than the MIA slot presently held by DL. None of the other evidence would suggest they have just kept the leased slot against the regulations imposed by the regulators, especially considering the time change.

If you look at the Heathrow schedules, MIA and one BOS are already removed for the S12 period which collaborates with the press release in February for the tender of BA/AA slot leases for the 12/13 period, including one BOS and one MIA.

Who held 09:45 slots previously?

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 39):
I seem to remember something about the MIA-LHR and DFW-LHR being able to be moved to MIA/DFW-XXX-LHR service after an initial period of time. Are we at the end of this waiting period? Was this the plan all along?

These were possible opportunities permissable under the slot lease. They are only allowed to enact these should no other company tender for a direct flight after a certain time period has passed. After this time, a one-stop service is allowed, so long as the operating aircraft remains the same, ie 767-300 all the way from LHR-XXX-MIA for example.

YYZAMS · Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 27):
This thread started with what sounded like a credible rumor, that was followed-up with another rumor. There are some other "DL insiders" that posted more credible information about what pending changes are in store for LGW/LHR.

Then there is still the open question about the terms/conditions of the LHR slots.

I think its funny how people on a.net seem to think the airline business is like cheering for a football team.

I agree....there are no links and nothing credible to back up the performance or fact that they are leaving LGW.

I, too, think it is funny how people cheer for their favourite "team" and treat it as sport.

einsteinboricua · Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:00 am

Only a matter of time before we see US leaving LGW altogether as well.

southwest737500 · Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 45):

Why would they leave LGW

southwest737500 · Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:43 am

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 34):

Yep your correct,there is corporate contracts involved

skipness1E · Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:57 am

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 46):

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 45):
Why would they leave LGW

Yields are generally more profitable at LHR, indeed LGW-PHL was moved to LHR almost immediately.

usflyer msp · Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:29 am

I really don't think US will move CLT-LGW to LHR. LHR slots are expensive and I doubt US believes that the traffic mix on CLT-LGW, which is heavily skewed towards Florida connections much of the year, is worth the investment. Plus there are still a considerable amount of people that prefer LGW and US will be the only US network carrier able to serve them, giving them a strong position in the marketplace.

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