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jeffreyklm
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KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:31 pm

Hello.

This month KLM will start to repaint the PH- BQF, -BQH, -BQI, -BQK, -BQL -BQM and -BQN from the regular KLM - Royal Dutch Airlines to the KLM - Asia livery and they will also lose their crown. Untill know, the KLM asia only had been on the 747-400 fleet.

This is done to be able to fly over the PRC (Peoples republic of China) to TPE (Taipei).

I hope this isn't a preparation for the removal of the crown and royalty because of the AF-KLM merger.. ?


Jeffrey.

Source (Dutch only)
http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=82494
A mile of road or railway leads to nowhere, a mile of runway leads to everywhere.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:41 pm

The reason for this change is probably the new AMS TPE MNL routing, which is to be operated with B772ER as opposed to the current AMS BKK TPE, which operates with B74E/B744.
 
A388
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
The reason for this change is probably the new AMS TPE MNL routing, which is to be operated with B772ER as opposed to the current AMS BKK TPE, which operates with B74E/B744.

So does this mean that the KL Asia 744 's will be getting their crown back or is this new AMS-TPE-MNL routing a additional routing? It will be nice variety to see the KL 772 without the "crown". Luckily not all 777's will be repainted this way   

A388
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting jeffreyklm (Thread starter):
I hope this isn't a preparation for the removal of the crown and royalty because of the AF-KLM merger.. ?

Well, you answered it perfectly yourself. And the AF-KL merger is not anything new anymore.

Quoting jeffreyklm (Thread starter):
This is done to be able to fly over the PRC (Peoples republic of China) to TPE (Taipei).
When I doubt... go running!
 
jeffreyklm
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 3):
Well, you answered it perfectly yourself. And the AF-KL merger is not anything new anymore.



Of course it's nothing new. But wasn't KLM losing the Royal title in 2012? But well, it seems that this is something completely different though.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 3):
So does this mean that the KL Asia 744 's will be getting their crown back or is this new AMS-TPE-MNL routing a additional routing? It will be nice variety to see the KL 772 without the "crown". Luckily not all 777's will be repainted this way



It seems that the 747's which now carry the ASIA titles will keep these.

Jeffrey.
A mile of road or railway leads to nowhere, a mile of runway leads to everywhere.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:10 pm

Am I the only one who finds it ridicolous that they still have to play these games? What a waste of resources.
 
Liverpoola380
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:18 pm

I thought that KLM no longer had to have an Asia registered section?

Is this a new treaty or posistion from China that see's this enforced again?
 
hooverman
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:30 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a voluntary move by KLM to prevent this from becoming a political issue.
The warm Taiwanese/Dutch relation has been a thorn in the eye for China.
I guess KLM doesn't want to displease the Chinese in any way, it might hurt them in the future.
 
Luxair
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:34 pm

If KLM (Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij) looses the crown than it's obvious that they looses also the title speak Koninklijke. I'm curious to see what they gonna do with the name KLM in the future! Maybe they will rename it in NLM, what do you think?
 
JRadier
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:19 pm

Maybe it's just me, but why would it make sense to paint just 7 aircraft in KLM Asia colours (so a bit more than just loosing the crown), if loosing the crown is the objective? In that case they would paint the entire fleet wouldn't they?
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:25 pm

Could someone please tell me what the deal is about KLM losing its royal title?

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 5):
Am I the only one who finds it ridicolous that they still have to play these games?

Nope. I fully agree, it's ridiculous. However, it is a smart move by KLM to keep China happy as they don't want to have to lose their large presence.
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
mauriceb
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 9):
Maybe it's just me, but why would it make sense to paint just 7 aircraft in KLM Asia colours (so a bit more than just loosing the crown), if loosing the crown is the objective? In that case they would paint the entire fleet wouldn't they?

Thats what i thought...

Its clearly stated that only 7 will be repainted, due to some royalty issues in asia... and u guys immediatly start the rumour mill about KL losing its ''Koningklijke'' titel, and that the repaint might have something to do with that. Sometimes the forum is even worse compared to RTL boulevard when it comes down to creating rumours  

I haven't seen any signs about KLM being obligated to change the name any time soon, even if they lose the official ''koningklijke'' titel..
 
Joost
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting jeffreyklm (Reply 4):
But wasn't KLM losing the Royal title in 2012?
Quoting luxair (Reply 8):

If KLM (Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij) looses the crown than it's obvious that they looses also the title speak Koninklijke. I'm curious to see what they gonna do with the name KLM in the future!

Back in 2003, our Queen Beatrix has decided that KLM can continue using the Koninklijke or Royal brand, and can keep using the crown, also after being taken over by AF.

http://www.adformatie.nl/nieuws/bericht/klm-behoudt-beeldmerk
 
hooverman
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting luxair (Reply 8):
If KLM (Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij) looses the crown than it's obvious that they looses also the title speak Koninklijke. I'm curious to see what they gonna do with the name KLM in the future! Maybe they will rename it in NLM, what do you think?

I don't think anything like that is going on. They're just adapting the liveries of a few planes to please China.
 
infinit
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:37 am

Quoting luxair (Reply 8):
If KLM (Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij) looses the crown than it's obvious that they looses also the title speak Koninklijke. I'm curious to see what they gonna do with the name KLM in the future! Maybe they will rename it in NLM, what do you think?

That would be horrible. I see nothing wrong with the use of the crown, it is heritage. And what is it with the Asia branding? It doesn't make sense to me. In that case the planes they fly to SIN and DPS should have the Asia branding too- Asia isn't only North Asia.

But its plain silly of you ask me. KLM is the oldest airline in the world to have kept its original name and livery. I personally would much rather have that consistent KLM brand.
 
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spiplane
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:08 am

Although historically this made sense, days that KLN asia was formally established in Taiwan, today it is a bit strang to say the least. A quick check in the photo database show that both KLM and KLM asia can be seen in both China and Taiwain. So what is the point really ....
A380 fan
 
vv701
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:16 am

Quoting infinit (Reply 14):
But its plain silly of you ask me. KLM is the oldest airline in the world to have kept its original name and livery.

Name? Certainly.

Livery? Well . . .

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SXDFC
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:50 am

I hope they re-paint some of the 777's during this process.. some of them could really use the few days in the paint shop..
 
infinit
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:38 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 16):
Name? Certainly.

Livery? Well . . .

Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I got my facts wrong there. KLM is the oldest airline to have kept their original name, not their livery.
 
kl692
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:16 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 2):
So does this mean that the KL Asia 744 's will be getting their crown back or is this new AMS-TPE-MNL routing a additional routing? It will be nice variety to see the KL 772 without the "crown". Luckily not all 777's will be repainted this way

A388

KL Asia 747's been seen in YYZ couples times this month so I am not sure if they will be getting their crown back or not. my guess is not since it gives the choice to fly the B744 on that route if there is a need to sub A/C
A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
 
speedbird0125
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:06 am

I know that many carriers did change their titles in order to fly to TPE in the past. Do they need to do this nowadays too? How come there are many carriers like KE or CX flying to TPE without changing their titles? Is it something related to political issues?
 
IDAWA
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:05 am

Is KLM Asia a "true" airline with its own Air Operator's Certificate or is it just a livery?
Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 340, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC9, D10, M11, M80, 146, EM2, BEH, CRJ, DH8, L4T.
 
nipoel123
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:36 am

Quoting IDAWA (Reply 21):
Is KLM Asia a "true" airline with its own Air Operator's Certificate or is it just a livery?

As far as I know, it's just a livery. I understand they don't want to displease the PRC's government, but why in heavensname can a tiny livery change, change the airline's position in the region?

If I'm wrong here, meaning KLM Asia is a separate airline, then I understand it, but the same airline with a different livery, is on paper still the same airline, right?
one mile of road leads to nowhere, one mile of runway leads to anywhere
 
bevisisback
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:25 am

Wikipedia page on KLM lists KLM Asia as a former subsidiary....?

Is this the case? If so, I'm slightly confused about why they would have to close it and start it up again.
 
IDAWA
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:56 am

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 22):
the same airline with a different livery, is on paper still the same airline, right?

Yes, as long as the aircraft are on the same Air Operator's Certificate. Nothing different than having a mix of aircraft in the old livery and in the new livery, as most airlines have.

Quoting bevisisback (Reply 23):
Wikipedia page on KLM lists KLM Asia as a former subsidiary

This will mean a lot of paperwork and extra costs, basically having to build a dedicated KLM Asia company structure, with its own Post Holders, etc. They can delegate many functions to "main" KLM, but not everything. Furthermore, they would need something like a wet-lease agreement between KLM and KLM Asia
Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 340, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC9, D10, M11, M80, 146, EM2, BEH, CRJ, DH8, L4T.
 
voodoo
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:08 am

Quoting joost (Reply 12):

Back in 2003, our Queen Beatrix has decided that KLM can continue using the Koninklijke or Royal brand, and can keep using the crown, also after being taken over by AF.

Well.. considering France may soon have a President Hollande..........  
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
MCO2BRS
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:16 am

If I recall correctly, KLM is the last European carrier to operate into TPE. They are also the last to have aircraft painted in 'Asia' titles. British Asia Airways, Air France Asie & Swissair Asia have long since disappeared into the history books.

It'll be good to see the KL 777's in a slightly different livery, it always nice to see something different every now and then.

Cheers,

MCO 2 BRS
 
jeffreyklm
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting joost (Reply 12):
Back in 2003, our Queen Beatrix has decided that KLM can continue using the Koninklijke or Royal brand, and can keep using the crown, also after being taken over by AF.

Thanks. That is a big, big relief to be honest! I couldn't stand it if KLM actually lost the crown and royal title.

Jeffrey.
A mile of road or railway leads to nowhere, a mile of runway leads to everywhere.
 
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PM
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting MCO2BRS (Reply 26):
If I recall correctly, KLM is the last European carrier to operate into TPE. They are also the last to have aircraft painted in 'Asia' titles. British Asia Airways, Air France Asie & Swissair Asia have long since disappeared into the history books.

I think you're right but seven frames?! None of the other airlines ever had anything like that number painted in a Taiwan-safe livery.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 5):
Am I the only one who finds it ridicolous that they still have to play these games? What a waste of resources.

I'm sure you are far from the only one. As an internationalist carrying two passports (and I might have had four) and having lived in six countries and worked in five, I find the nation state to be only second to organised religion in doing far more damage than good in the modern world.
 
A388
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:13 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 11):
Its clearly stated that only 7 will be repainted, due to some royalty issues in asia... and u guys immediatly start the rumour mill about KL losing its ''Koningklijke'' titel, and that the repaint might have something to do with that. Sometimes the forum is even worse compared to RTL boulevard when it comes down to creating rumours

I haven't seen any signs about KLM being obligated to change the name any time soon, even if they lose the official ''koningklijke'' titel..

I agree with you on this, it is rediculous that people immediately link this livery change to KL losing the crown.

A388
 
JAAlbert
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 22):
I understand they don't want to displease the PRC's government, but why in heavensname can a tiny livery change, change the airline's position in the region?

Okay, for us clueless americans (me) what is the problem between KLM and China, and the other european carriers and China and Taiwan?

Quoting PM (Reply 28):
As an internationalist carrying two passports (and I might have had four) and having lived in six countries and worked in five, I find the nation state to be only second to organised religion in doing far more damage than good in the modern world.

Fascinating! (What does it mean?)
 
peanuts
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 30):
what is the problem between KLM and China, and the other european carriers and China and Taiwan?

Better question: why is KLM doing this/having to do this as opposed to other carriers that fly to both Taiwan and PRC???
UA and DL come to mind...

KLM kowtowing???
 
richcandy
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 30):
Okay, for us clueless americans (me) what is the problem between KLM and China, and the other european carriers and China and Taiwan?

My understanding is that China said if you want serve Taiwan then you can't fly into mainland China. So airlines like BA, AF, KL etc painted a few aircraft with a slightly different livery and name to use on the TPE route. It seams to of been mainly European airlines that were required to do this but there was also Qantas Asia or something similar and I think Jal had something.

Years and years ago I asked a China Airlines sales rep why they did not fly into the UK and his reply was that at the time the UK government would not let them unless they painted out the Taiwan flag.

Alex
 
B777LRF
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 30):
Okay, for us clueless americans (me) what is the problem between KLM and China, and the other european carriers and China and Taiwan?

Once upon a time China decided, in her quest to harm "the wayward province", they were going to revoke overflying rights for all services to Taiwan by carriers who also served the mainland. Very few European airlines actually fly there, KLM one of them. Detouring around China on the way to Taipai is impractical when coming from Amsterdam, so KLM created another brand called KLM Asia, ensuring all flights to Taipei would be on KLM Asia branded aircraft. The Chinese doesn't loose face, KLM Asia can overfly China - everybody's happy. It is of course utterly stupid but, then again, international politics often are.

For obvious geographic reasons this problem does not apply to US carriers, and in the few cases it does apply to Asian carriers it's not that much of a biggie. I don't think there's any other European carrier offering direct services to TPE, routing via somewhere like BKK instead, negating the problem in those cases as well.
Signature. You just read one.
 
vv701
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting MCO2BRS (Reply 26):
British Asia Airways, Air France Asie & Swissair Asia have long since disappeared into the history books.

British Asia Airways disappeared on 28 March 2002 when they returned this aircraft:

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Photo © Alice Wong


which had been "leased" since June 1995, to parent BA. This followed the discontinuation on 4 March that year of the add-on extensions of their LHR-HKG flights to both MNL and TPE.

The withdrawl of flights to MNL and TPE appears to have been part of the rationalisation of BA's services following 9/11 six months earlier together with the availability of flights operated by oneworld partners CX from HKG and JL from NRT to both of these destinations. By routing passengers with a change of aircraft at either HKG or NRT instead of a stop over at HKG there was now a choice of daily service not previously promoted as well as a choice of schedules.

I believe - but am not certain - that up until 4 March 2002 BA025 had operated LHR-HKG-TPE just twice a week on Mondays and Saturdays. This was certainly the case somewhat earlier in the late 1990s.
 
peanuts
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:07 pm

OK, so it's an "overflying rights" issue. Not a "you can't serve Taiwan if you also want to serve PRC airports" issue.
Brilliant, politics...  
 
celestar
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:15 pm

I will give everyone another example. JAL used to have Japan Asia because of political issue to be able to fly from Japan to Taiwan. Couple of years ago, this was no longer necessary and we can see JAL logo plane regularly in Taiwan. As a matter of fact, Japan Asia ceased to exist. With the present political climax between the Taiwan Strait, I would be hard pressed to think KLM is doing this because of this reason. Is there any tax benefit by switching to KLM Asia, balance sheet/book wise, I am not too sure or aware and could be wrong.
Even the previous KLM 747 which carries the KLM Asia, I don't think it ever fly through China air space given its routing through Bangkok. China now even allows CI or BR plane to overfly its air space to reach European destination.
Very strange of KLM decision. Historically because of the submarine sales, the relationship between China and Netherland was strained but that was years and decades ago.
 
apjung
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 30):


Basically, it's a way for People's Republic of China to claim that only flag carriers of a country flies to P.R.C. and not to that so called "renegade breakaway" province called Taiwan.
Why Is KLM Only Airline With Asia In Title? (by Western727 Mar 9 2011 in Civil Aviation)

Why AF Or KLM "Asia"? (by Trex8 Nov 2 2004 in Civil Aviation)

Non-Asian Carriers Flying To Asia (by Komododx Jan 27 2004 in Civil Aviation)

Now as to why other airlines such as TG, MH and SQ never had to follow this silly face saving rule is not clear. Some say it had to do with the Vietnam War and the warmer relations between those countries and The Republic Of China (Taiwan).
Andy P. Jung
 
CapEd388
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 30):
Okay, for us clueless americans (me) what is the problem between KLM and China, and the other european carriers and China and Taiwan?

Yeah, its all about politics. China does not recognize Taiwan as an independent state, well they consider them a rouge state. Because of this, China (back in the day, idk not too sure about now) would not allow carriers to fly to both, China and Taiwan. If they flew to China, they couldn't fly to Taiwan and vice versa.

Carriers found a loop hole, they created a separate "Asia" airline within an airline: Air France Asie, British Asia Airways, KLM Asia, Swissair Asia, Australia Asia Airlines (by Qantas), JAA - Japan Asia Airlines (by JAL) etc. My understanding was that this only applied to airlines that were either government owned or financially supported by their government, that's why private airlines like DL, UA, AA etc. were not restricted and hence, they didn't need to create "Asia" divisions.

I was also under the impression that KLM had shut down the KLM Asia brand and that they were phasing it out, so I am surprised to hear that they are sort of starting it up again and increasing the fleet size.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 5):

Am I the only one who finds it ridicolous that they still have to play these games? What a waste of resources.

   I agree 100%

This goes to show, how petty politics can get.
388 346 77W 787
 
Joost
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 28):
I think you're right but seven frames?! None of the other airlines ever had anything like that number painted in a Taiwan-safe livery.

It has everything to do with efficient fleet scheduling.

KL will operate a daily, double-overnight pattern on the AMS-TPE-MNL vv run.
KL807 AMS2040 – 1445+1TPE1620+1 – 1825+1MNL
KL808 MNL1940 – 2145TPE2310 – 0610+1AMS

* the aircraft leaves AMS in the evening, and returns in the early morning, 2 days later.
* to operate this route daily, you'll need at least 2 aircraft. However, if you have 2 dedicated aircraft for the route, they'll be sitting idle at AMS for 12:30 hours.
* It is better to use the aircraft for other routes too, and have more efficient fleet scheduling.

For example, take AMS-CPT
KL597 AMS1005 - 2135CPT
KL598 CPT2335 - 1100+1AMS

This route also needs 2 aircraft to operate on a daily basis. However, if you combine AMT-TPE-MNL and AMS-CPT, you can serve both routes daily, while using 3 aircraft. Now, one aircraft will be waiting for 8 hours during the day.

To make it even better, take AMS-KIX
KL867 AMS1440 - 0850+1KIX
KL868 KIX 1030 - 1525AMS

Again, a route that needs 2 aircraft to fly daily. But if you tag the AMS-KIX run to the AMS-CPT run, and then fly to TPE, you can serve these 3 routes daily, while using 4 aircraft. (The aircraft would fly AMS-TPE-MNL-TPE-AMS-CPT-AMS-KIX-AMS in 4 days).

Now, with KLM's extensive route network, even more combinations can be made. Now include maintenance time (it can easily happen that 1 aircraft is having a C-check and 1 other an A-check), and you already need 6 aircraft. A 7th aircraft adds additional scheduling flexibility, making it possible to fly as many routes with the available fleet.
 
Viscount724
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RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 38):
Carriers found a loop hole, they created a separate "Asia" airline within an airline: Air France Asie, British Asia Airways, KLM Asia, Swissair Asia, Australia Asia Airlines (by Qantas), JAA - Japan Asia Airlines (by JAL) etc. My understanding was that this only applied to airlines that were either government owned or financially supported by their government, that's why private airlines like DL, UA, AA etc. were not restricted and hence, they didn't need to create "Asia" divisions.

CP (privately owned) also served both TPE and mainland China (and HKG) without any problems.
 
hooverman
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 pm

RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):
CP (privately owned) also served both TPE and mainland China (and HKG) without any problems.

I guess the dutch aren't the daredevils   KLM doesn't want to risk a political row with China.It's all I can think of.
 
trex8
Posts: 5592
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:24 am

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 38):
My understanding was that this only applied to airlines that were either government owned or financially supported by their government, that's why private airlines like DL, UA, AA etc. were not restricted and hence, they didn't need to create "Asia" divisions.

The reason US airlines didn't go through this charade, as well as SQ, TG, PR (all effectively government owned in the 70s, 80s) was that the Japan (Japan Asia was the first of these "asia " airlines) /Euro airlines bent to Beijings political pressure while the others told Beijing to go drop dead. It had nothing to do with being privately owned etc per se. It was a question of which government was willing, or not willing, to kowtow to Beijing. The US was obviously not going to kowtow and in the 70s, 80s neither were the Singaporeans who back then were very dependent on their military being trained in Taiwan and Manila and Bangkok had too many historical links with Taipei and not enough ( at that time,) economic reasons to favor Beijing. The Japanese were the first to cave in and the Euro airlines took that as a cue and followed. The Koreans really botched their "breakup" from Taipei and upset them so much for almost a decade there were no flights between SEL and TPE on a Korean or Taiwanese airline - but you could fly on CX and a bunch of other asian airlines TPE-SEL direct!! By the late 80s Beijing weren't so upset about things and started looking the other way.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):
CP (privately owned) also served both TPE and mainland China (and HKG) without any problems.

Are you sure CP flew to TPE??? HKG was a totally different matter as it was British till 97. Canadian flew in the 90s but by then Beijing had grown up
 
IDAWA
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 9:07 pm

RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:47 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 34):
British Asia Airways disappeared on 28 March 2002 when they returned this aircraft:


View Large View Medium

Photo © Alice Wong


which had been "leased" since June 1995, to parent BA. This followed the discontinuation on 4 March that year of the add-on extensions of their LHR-HKG flights to both MNL and TPE.

If a lease between BA and BA Asia was needed, they were two different airlines, not just two different liveries.
Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 340, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC9, D10, M11, M80, 146, EM2, BEH, CRJ, DH8, L4T.
 
A388
Posts: 8004
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:19 pm

Quoting joost (Reply 39):
It has everything to do with efficient fleet scheduling.

I guess Joost has explained it very well and may even put this discussion or thread to rest!!! In any case thank you for explaining this to us Joost  

A388
 
LJ
Posts: 5378
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:00 pm

Quoting celestar (Reply 36):
China now even allows CI or BR plane to overfly its air space to reach European destination.
Very strange of KLM decision.

It's not a strange decision. CI may overfly parts of China, Not the entire country. CI has to make a large detour on TPE-LHR and TPE-VIE. KL's flight will take much less flying time, thus I reckon that they're allowed to have a very favorable routing compared to CI
 
lijnden
Posts: 537
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:34 am

RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:21 pm

In the 80's and early 90's the flights from AMS to TPE were flown by Martinair aircraft. Later they were flown by KLM Asia planes. KLM is the only airline to keep up the Asia planes. I guess it is political and must have some benefits in regards to tax. Anyway, back in 1997 Hong Kong and also Macau became Chinese (status aparte) again and aviation became liberated and the Asia titles disappeared from aircraft.
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAD-ORF
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting jeffreyklm (Reply 27):
Thanks. That is a big, big relief to be honest! I couldn't stand it if KLM actually lost the crown and royal title.

The KLM Asia division has no crown because apparently it has the equivalent status of a national flag. KLM and BA Asia have never had a crown. Nothing new.

Air China has a few ''Taiwan-certified'' A343 that have also been deprived of the PRC flag

(imagine two CA A343 pictures here, one with, one without the flag) (thumbnailing a.net pictures doesn't work for me)

Lufthansa used Condor to serve Taiwan and circumvented the need to establish a separate brand thusly.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:40 pm

I am confused as to why KLM still have a KLM Asia subsidiary.

According to the Taiwanese Journal the reason why ROC aircraft operated by the likes of BR and CI did not overfly the PRC was because there was an ROC government ban on such flights for security reasons. Thjis ban was lifted in August 2005. Within two weeks of this ban being lifted four ROC airlines, AE, BR, B7 and CI, all applied to the PRC authorities for over-fly rights. This permission was granted on 2 September 2005. The first ROC airline to operate a flight that over flew PRC territory was BR. On 4 September 2005 their TPE-CDG flight entered PRC air space. Amazingly it had taken less than a month from the time that the ban was lifted until the first flight operated.

More detail is given here:

http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/4-oa/20050920/2005092001.html

Three years later direct flights between Taiwan and the PRC were started. The first flights operated on 4 July 2008. The first east bound flight was operated by CZ, the first west bound flight by CI:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7488965.stm

But the ROC airlines operating these flights do not have as "Asian" subsidiary. So why does KL? As these subsidiares appear to be based in Taiwan is it a requirement of the ROC government (for econommic reasons) and not the PRC government?
 
trex8
Posts: 5592
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: KLM Changing The 772's From KLM To KLM Asia

Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting something (Reply 47):
Air China has a few ''Taiwan-certified'' A343 that have also been deprived of the PRC flag

Can you expand on this because it doesn't make sense. CA has no A343s leased from a Taiwanese carrier or entity. Yangtze River had a 744F leased from CI , actually it was owned by a US bank but essentially subleased to them by CI, who are part owners of Y8 but that still had a mainland Chinese registration when it was taken off CIs books(actually its back again to CI and now stored), there was another plane sold outright after being leased for awhile to Y8 but that also had a mainland Chinese B reg and not a Taiwan B reg.
Or are you saying these are "certified" as they are used on the cross strait flight sand the flags been taken off for that purpose only??

Quoting VV701 (Reply 48):
But the ROC airlines operating these flights do not have as "Asian" subsidiary. So why does KL? As these subsidiares appear to be based in Taiwan is it a requirement of the ROC government (for econommic reasons) and not the PRC government?
CI had to establish Mandarin in the 90s to fly to Australia, Canada. When this was no longer necessary to fly these overseas flights, AE became a more domestic/regional subsidiary of CI. Though the whole farce was exposed for what it was as in the latter years of AE operating these overseas flights as it wasn't unusual for CI metal to be substituted for AE and no politician/diplomat had a fit in the countries requiring AE to fly there instead of CI . BR did not need a subsidiary as they were not government owned and never had a ROC flag on their planes (and their owners Evergreen shipping were way way too big for Beijing to upset) . When CI went to the cherry blossom paint job they took off the ROC flag and that got rid of one more issue upsetting Beijing.
It may well be that some of the Taiwanese imposed conditions on KLM Asia, if they are indeed that, are just remnants of political tit for tat against the other country for real or imagines slights in the past.

[Edited 2012-02-23 10:12:06]

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