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fcogafa
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B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:37 am

Mr O Leary has been having his say on the B737MAX, saying it is a dogs dinner of a design done on a fag packet. He also criticises the lack of standing room! Doesn't sound like he will be ordering them in the near future!

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...cathing-verdict-on-737-max-368895/
 
lhr380
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:41 am

Quoting fcogafa (Thread starter):

More sensationalised stuff from the Irish one. Of course it will get lots of press and free advertising for them which is the reason he has done it.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:42 am

Does anyone else sense the irony of these comments coming from a guy who runs a crap-ass outfit like that?

It's all good though. I'm sure COMAC will cut him some kind of deal...
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roseflyer
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:47 am

Wow that is a lot of negativity towards everyone. The comments on standing only area are a bit confusing. He seems to want the 737-8? to go up to 230 passengers with a standing section. I wonder if this is true or another marketing ploy like pay for use toilets.
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Stitch
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:49 am

As "Airbus is not currently in the running", I guess he's going to finally pull the trigger on that 200 frame 737NG order.   

As to raising the Exit Limit, I suppose Boeing could put the 737-900ER's additional exit doors on the 737-800.

[Edited 2012-02-28 16:57:12]
 
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Revelation
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:00 am

Quote:

An additional stumbling block is the carrier's concept for a standing-only area on its flights, raising capacity to 230 passengers from 189 on an all-seated aircraft. This would require the removal of the rear lavatories and final six rows of seats in the 737. "We won't place any new order until they [Boeing] come up with a fix for this issue," said O'Leary.

That one is in the hands of the regulators, and I doubt that idiot's idea will get past them.
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BoeingGuy
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:18 am

What exactly does, "on the back of a fag packet" mean? Not sure I'd like to find out in person.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:23 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 6):
What exactly does, "on the back of a fag packet" mean?

A fag is a cigarette, so like an idea dreamed up in a pub on the back of a napkin or cigarette packet  

If I were Boeing, I would tell him where to go. As A are not in the running, instead put his money where his mouth is and go with the C919 or MS21.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:40 am

Boeing has him by the gonads. Nobody is going to give him the extra deep discounts of yore. Comac won't have the production rates to satisfy his needs until 2020 at the earliest and that's if they don't have the 2 year delay that some are predicting. The MS-21 won't be available much sooner.

Boeing and Airbus have such huge backlogs that neither are desperate for his business...not anywhere like when he got his big deal from Boeing.

MOL is hooped...he can yap all he wants but his only chance to get anything in a reasonable timeframe might be if he was willing to go with the smaller CS300.

He used to be more amusing...he's going to have to come up with something better than 'the max is barfy' to make anyone really pay attention.

Must be a slow news day.
What the...?
 
BD338
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:43 am

the best and funniest part of the entire article...

He called for the government to "stop pandering to the idiot environmentalists and even less sensible Nimbys" and add extra runways at London Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted as these airports are already served by existing public transport and road infrastructure. Seeking to construct a new airport in "the estuary of Boris [Johnson's] imagination" with no road or rail links for delivery in 30 years time was, he said "complete and utter bloody lunacy even by Boris's standards".

...classic MOL

as for the 737MAX, looks like Ryanair will be ordering Chinese soon  
 
AA737-823
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:51 am

1,000 orders and commitments from established carriers would seem to suggest otherwise....
 
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yyz717
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 2):
I'm sure COMAC will cut him some kind of deal...
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 8):
Boeing has him by the gonads.

MOL was amusing for some number of years, now he's just arrogant and annoying. Id love Boeing and Airbus refuse to cut him any deals at all. He can't afford new aircraft at full price and such a stance will stop his growth cold.

In my wildest dreams I see Boeing and Airbus refusing to sell him any aircraft at all.

Seriously, with Norwegian committing to the MAX and neo, FR can ill afford not to order either.
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Navion
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:27 am

Ironically MOL is making a lot of money using 738's and the MAX is a notable update of the highly successful 73NG design. I enjoy some of MOL's comments but sometimes he is just vulgar & graceless which dimishes his cause.
 
MCO2BRS
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:38 am

Looks like MOL has had his "standing room only" idea thwarted by the "unnamed regulator".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...lane-tickets-regulator?INTCMP=SRCH

I can honestly see FR going for a COMAC order - providing they can actually deliver an aircraft (correct me if I'm wrong but they've still not delivered the ARJ yet). Also as stated in the article, Airbus isn't in the running, and we all know Boeing is once bitten twice shy when it comes to FR, they won't be offering much of a discount on the 737MAX or early production slots (if any are still available).

Maybe he could persuade Bombardier to build a larger C-Series?   

Cheers,

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BMI727
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:18 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 8):
Boeing has him by the gonads. Nobody is going to give him the extra deep discounts of yore.

I bet he could score a deal on some 2015 737s. Nobody is going to want them right before the MAX shows up.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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Stitch
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:22 am

Quoting MCO2BRS (Reply 13):
I can honestly see FR going for a COMAC order - providing they can actually deliver an aircraft...

Which is in itself unlikely in the quantity and timeframe he'd need them.

And even if they could produce them, can they adequately support them with spares and such?




Both Boeing and FR have stated pricing was not an obstacle to the original plans to purchase an additional 200 737NGs a year or two back. The likely reason was a combination of slowing growth at FR and disagreements over resale ability. FR wants the ability to turn over 737s when the used market is hot and Boeing doesn't want to allow them to do so as it undermines their ability to sell new planes and hurts their Average Sale Price.
 
ODwyerPW
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:47 am

Wow, he offended about everyone in that article? I half expected him to refer to the NEO as a Frogjet.

Would a CS500 be range limited in Western Europe? Surely Bombardier would build it for a firm order of 200.
learning never stops.
 
tonystan
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:09 am

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 2):
Does anyone else sense the irony of these comments coming from a guy who runs a crap-ass outfit like that?

As much as I utterly despise the man and what he stands for Im not sure I would go as far as to call Ryanair a "crap-ass" outfit considering it has basically taken over Europe and made the vast majority of established airlines weak at the knees!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
redflyer
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:11 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 8):
Comac won't have the production rates to satisfy his needs until 2020 at the earliest

COMAC is an unknown - Even if they could satisfy his needs in 2020, no one knows if it will be a product that is up to snuff by Western standards.

What I want to know is why is he fixated by what the MAX will look like? According to the article, he's quoted as saying:

Quote:
"Boeing can't tell you what the Max looks like or what the fuel saving is".

We all have a general idea of what it will look like, which is very similar to the existing 73. But as an airline executive why does he care what the looks are like? If it performs up to specs and is similar in every other respect to existing airliners from an operational and procedural standpoint, why would he care? But, again, Boeing has published photos and while changes may occur by the time the final product is in production, it isn't going to be radically different from the existing versions.
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bhxdtw
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:22 am

Quoting fcogafa (Thread starter):
Mr O Leary has been having his say on the B737MAX, saying it is a dogs dinner of a design done on a fag packet.
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 7):
A fag is a cigarette, so like an idea dreamed up in a pub on the back of a napkin or cigarette packet

Southwest and its first triangle route in Texas was a dreamt up on the back of a napkin, so sometimes napkin ideas aren't all bad ...  
 
Navion
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:54 am

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 19):
Southwest and its first triangle route in Texas was a dreamt up on the back of a napkin, so sometimes napkin ideas aren't all bad

Scott Crossfield told a group of us the original basic X-15 design was drawn out on a napkin.
 
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:35 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
FR wants the ability to turn over 737s when the used market is hot and Boeing doesn't want to allow them to do so as it undermines their ability to sell new planes and hurts their Average Sale Price.

How can Boeing stop him from selling his aircraft if he wants to? Once he owns them, aren't them for him to do as he pleases with?

Or are we talking about Boeing refusing to support new aircraft resold within a certain timeframe after purchase?
 
BMI727
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:41 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 21):
How can Boeing stop him from selling his aircraft if he wants to? Once he owns them, aren't them for him to do as he pleases with?

They put it in the contract. Such things are even more commonplace in contracts for military aircraft. It isn't much different than the EULA that you agree to whenever you get new software.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
bennett123
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:51 am

BD338

I think I agree with him about "Boris Island". As for the rest, there is no way that either party is going to agree all those new runways, especially given his attitude about paying for things.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:55 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 21):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
FR wants the ability to turn over 737s when the used market is hot and Boeing doesn't want to allow them to do so as it undermines their ability to sell new planes and hurts their Average Sale Price.

How can Boeing stop him from selling his aircraft if he wants to? Once he owns them, aren't them for him to do as he pleases with?

Or are we talking about Boeing refusing to support new aircraft resold within a certain timeframe after purchase?

Isn't it basically that FR are taking advantage of the low purchase price that they've got for the 737 and shifting them on. is B didn't cut them such a good deal then they'd not move the planes on so quick.

I predict that they'll be loads and loads of mud slinging which will then end up with an order for the 737MAX at a "massively discounted" but never disclosed price.
 
bennett123
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:08 am

Well, if he does go for standing room only, I wonder how many will be prepared to fly that way.
 
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frigatebird
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:16 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
"Airbus is not currently in the running",

Which means: Airbus has shown him the door. I guess they'll only are willing to put up with MOL's nonsensical behaviour when FR is willing to pay list prices for Airbus' products. And rightly so, Airbus doesn't need FR.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 7):
go with the C919 or MS21.

FR's business model is for an important part based on reselling their aircraft within a few years (6 or so?) for about the same price they purchased them. I wonder how he will pull that off with C919 or MS21, if he can, he's even smarter a businessman than I thought.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):
MOL was amusing for some number of years, now he's just arrogant and annoying.

  

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 16):
Would a CS500 be range limited in Western Europe? Surely Bombardier would build it for a firm order of 200.

Not big enough. It will need to be a CS900    (which, IIRC, has been copyrighted by BBD).
Hid best chance is COMAC. Unlike Boeing, Airbus or BBD, they would build an airplane specifically for FR, because COMAC could sell such kind of airplane also to Chinese carriers, see the popularity of the A321.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 18):
According to the article, he's quoted as saying:

Quote:"Boeing can't tell you what the Max looks like or what the fuel saving is".

I agree that it's irrelevant what it looks like. But he has a very valid point if Boeing can't guarantee its SFC.

In the end, I can see FR ordering a huge bunch of 737-9's.
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[email protected]
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:08 am

People herein become waaaaay too emotional and invoved with such things, with talk of Boeing or Airbus 'refusing' to sell Ryanair aircraft.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Daysleeper
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:39 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 27):
People herein become waaaaay too emotional and invoved with such things, with talk of Boeing or Airbus 'refusing' to sell Ryanair aircraft.

I agree. They may exercise a little more caution, or perhaps even have a chaperone for the first date after the rape allegations last time, but for me there is no question that both Boeing and Airbus would be willing to deal with him again. After all a 200 frame order is, well a 200 frame order…
 
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:44 am

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 28):
rape allegations

But Boeing would have clearly been sufficiently happy with the price and otherwise or else they wouldn't have accepted the deal. 'Rape' is a silly and sensational word in this context given that it implies that one party didn't give acceptance when they obviously did.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Daleaholic
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:04 am

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 2):

Does anyone else sense the irony of these comments coming from a guy who runs a crap-ass outfit like that?

Aaah yes, the 'crap-ass outfit' which is making money and operating flights which are constantly busy.  
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PezySPU
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:05 am

Quoting redflyer (Reply 18):
Quote: "Boeing can't tell you what the Max looks like or what the fuel saving is".

We all have a general idea of what it will look like, which is very similar to the existing 73. But as an airline executive why does he care what the looks are like?

It's not about the looks of aircraft. He's probably trying to say that Boeing is still not sure about specifications and performance of the design. Which isn't far from true; remember how long it took them to figure out if they'll make a clean-sheet design or reengine (and how heavily opposed they were to reengining), then how long it took them to figure out engine-diameter..? And all that time Airbus already had the neo and was picking-up record orders.
I actually agree with MOL on this one. Not really the best choice of words, but that's it in a nutshell.
 
Daysleeper
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:15 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 29):
'Rape' is a silly and sensational word in this context given that it implies that one party didn't give acceptance when they obviously did.

Why so literal?I was only referring to what MOL himself said a few years ago... I mean come on I suggested a chaperone .
 
Burkhard
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:16 am

I was missing his interesting contributions to the world of aviation already, good to see him back.

Again we make the free advertisement for him. He will need 738MAX, and he will buy them - or the Ryanair after him. Without standing area. No German will fly in a Chinese made plane. They completely failed with cars on this market, and Chinese products are known to be of poor quality.

Good to hear him again...
 
SuperCaravelle
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:28 am

Nothing to see here. Don't give Mr O'Leary any attention, he doesn't deserve it...
 
[email protected]
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:31 am

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 32):
Why so literal?I

I wasn't referring to you specifically.  
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
scouseflyer
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:31 am

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 26):
Not big enough. It will need to be a CS900 (which, IIRC, has been copyrighted by BBD).

Well they are fans of making really, really long thin planes - look at the CRJ1000
 
Max Q
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:43 am

Well, he's right about the 'dogs dinner' design.


Boeing could have done a lot better than just pandering to Southwest.



'Standing room only though'


Interesting !
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SEPilot
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:12 am

MOL, whatever you may think of him, has shown that he can cut costs better than any other airline executive in Europe (and perhaps the world). However, his continuing ability to do so may be in jeopardy. His idea of standing room only flights is highly unlikely to ever win regulatory approval; it is one thing to have standing room in a subway car that is on a track and might travel at 30-40 MPH; it is quite another to have it on an airplane. He certainly seems to have royally PO'd Airbus; and while Boeing has not said so publicly it seems that they are not all that enamored with him either. One thing I have learned in my career is that it is never smart to annoy those who you depend on; sooner or later it will come back to bite you. I do not think Boeing will be in the mood to cut him any special deals again; JL is on record as saying that he will be welcome to buy all the airliners he wants at list price, and I expect that, while Boeing has not said so publicly their attitude is similar. He certainly has lost all ability to play A off against B. As others have said nobody else is likely to have enough capacity to deliver the number of planes he needs when he needs them. I do not see a very bright future for MOL at this point.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:16 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 38):
His idea

Not his idea. Others have stated it before, including Spring Airlines (from China). Indeed, FR mentioned the idea a few weeks after Spring did. A coincidence? I think not. But guess which got 99.5% of the attention?  
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 38):
I do not see a very bright future for MOL at this point.

In fairness, people have been saying that for years.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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SEPilot
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:22 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 39):
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 38):
I do not see a very bright future for MOL at this point.

In fairness, people have been saying that for years.

While he might have lasted longer than many expected he cannot continue his current business model without a continuing supply of new airliners. He might change his strategy and fly the wings off the planes he has, but that would require actually paying for them and maintaining them, which will cost real money. We shall see.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
nonimaus
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:23 am

It looks like someone might have slipped something funny into O'Leary's morning coffee. I guess after you've berated the makers of the planes you fly, the people who supply the fuel, and the owners of the airports you fly into, you've not really got many big targets left.


Ryanair launches multimillion pound lawsuit against ExxonMobil:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...r-lawsuit-exxonmobil-aviation-fuel
 
PH-BFA
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:25 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 39):
In fairness, people have been saying that for years.

in fairness, ryanair did not order any new aircraft for years...  Last order was the big order in 2003 AFAIK?
 
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seabosdca
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:44 am

He's gone off the rails. Sad but frequent when you become very powerful and there is no one in your life to tell you no.

The result is that he's in an extremely unenviable position. If he had conducted himself just a bit differently in negotiations, he could have had himself a killer deal on a shedload of early 737MAX frames, which would have given him an unbeatable cost advantage until other airlines caught up. Now he's only got a bunch of terrible options.   

[Edited 2012-02-29 03:45:03]
 
cmf
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:55 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
And even if they could produce them, can they adequately support them with spares and such?

Is support really such an obstacle? You need to have spare parts inventory for whatever you build. Boeing had pretty much to start from scratch with the 787 and Airbus is in the same situation with the A350.

IMO opinion the biggest issue is that they do not have established locations or people used to dealing with "their way." But getting a large customer like Ryanair would make it about as easy as can be. They would build a support center close to a large Ryanair base and use Ryanair's frequency to send parts and qualified technicians when not available at the stations.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 18):
COMAC is an unknown - Even if they could satisfy his needs in 2020, no one knows if it will be a product that is up to snuff by Western standards.

As a competitor I would not dare to count them out based on this.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 25):

Well, if he does go for standing room only, I wonder how many will be prepared to fly that way.

Depends on the length of flight and savings compared to a normal seat. I'm sure there are plenty of routes where it could work. Certification and feasibility after certification requirements is where I have my doubts.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Joost
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:00 pm

Quoting Navion (Reply 20):
Scott Crossfield told a group of us the original basic X-15 design was drawn out on a napkin.
Quoting PezySPU (Reply 31):
It's not about the looks of aircraft. He's probably trying to say that Boeing is still not sure about specifications and performance of the design. Which isn't far from true; remember how long it took them to figure out if they'll make a clean-sheet design or reengine (and how heavily opposed they were to reengining), then how long it took them to figure out engine-diameter..

Well said, apparantly Boeing is still vague when it comes to specifications (weight, fuel burn, range, etc). Not surprising, as it was in November when they decided on a major design choice (fan diameter), and the performance specs will become available more and more in the coming years. What O'Leary is basically saying, is that Boeing cannot give many important details on the 737MAX yet.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...t-exxonmobil-aviation-fuel[/quote]

Quoting nonimaus (Reply 41):
It looks like someone might have slipped something funny into O'Leary's morning coffee. I guess after you've berated the makers of the planes you fly, the people who supply the fuel, and the owners of the airports you fly into, you've not really got many big targets left.

Ryanair launches multimillion pound lawsuit against ExxonMobil:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...-fuel

If price fixing took place, no surprise they're filing lawsuits. And you can be sure that other airlines are watching it closely. They have either submitted similar lawsuits yet, or are closely watching the proceedings to find out if they can file lawsuits too.

Quote:
An additional stumbling block is the carrier's concept for a standing-only area on its flights, raising capacity to 230 passengers from 189 on an all-seated aircraft. This would require the removal of the rear lavatories and final six rows of seats in the 737. "We won't place any new order until they [Boeing] come up with a fix for this issue," said O'Leary.

This is a very, very interesting one. It's not necessarily about standing, rather than about the maximum passenger certification for the 738. In high-density seating, it's possible to add another 6 or 9 seats in the aircraft (slim-line 29" seats, removing one more toilet), but exit regulations don't allow for it.

For quite some time, Ryanair has been saying to Boeing to work on raising the 189 pax-limit. Either by making changes to the design (additional exit doors like the 739ER?), either by adopting minor changes and trying to re-certify the aircraft at 200+ seats with the same exit configuration.

Anyhow, after all 'we won't other additional 738', here FR opens the door to Boeing: give us a 200+ seat certified 738MAX, and we'll buy it. No matter the discounts or conditions, any airplane manufacturer is interested in a 200-airframe order.

(And does anyone honestly think that FRs deal back in 2003 is very different from WN's 2011 208-aircraft order, or AA's 200 airframe order, or Lionairs order?)

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
That one is in the hands of the regulators, and I doubt that idiot's idea will get past them.

Did you know the idea isn't originally from FR, but from Airbus?

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 21):
How can Boeing stop him from selling his aircraft if he wants to? Once he owns them, aren't them for him to do as he pleases with?

Yes, unless agreed otherwise of course. It's not uncommon to include these kinds of conditions for large sales orders.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:10 pm

Well, Airbus's chief salesman is on record as saying that he can buy all the airplanes he wants at list price. That is saying that they are just not interested in dealing with him. I know from my own experience that sometimes customers alienate their suppliers to the point that they simply won't deal with them; when I was designing grinding machines our main steel supplier did just that to us; they wouldn't even deal with us for cash. You have to work pretty hard to get to that point, but we managed to do it. From what I have read, MOL has done the same with Airbus, and I cannot imagine that he has endeared himself with Boeing.

[Edited 2012-02-29 04:44:55 by SA7700]
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
shankly
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:21 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 38):
it is one thing to have standing room in a subway car that is on a track and might travel at 30-40 MPH; it is quite another to have it on an airplane


....... the bar area in Emirates A380's is standing. I happily stand there for 2 hours at a time, albeit with a glass of champers in hand. Yes, I accept the limitations during TO and landing, but the concept is half way there

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):
Id love Boeing and Airbus refuse to cut him any deals at all. He can't afford new aircraft at full price and such a stance will stop his growth cold.


And then overnight the world catches another cold (Iran, oil, natural disaster, regulatory/safety issues associated with the Asian LC's) and some of those big MAX and NEO orders are deferred or cancelled, but as MOL has the best airline business model operating he still needs planes. Airbus and Boeing are not in the business of having to be best pals with their customers, they are just in the business of shifting metal. MOL will get the planes he wants at the price he is happy to pay.
L1011 - P F M
 
flipdewaf
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:24 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 47):
Well, Airbus's chief salesman is on record as saying that he can buy all the airplanes he wants at list price. That is saying that they are just not interested in dealing with him.

Not quite, John Leahey said "you can buy all the airplanes you like at list price", he did not however say that they would not sell them below list or any other such thing. Semantics I know but maybe very important semantics.

Fred
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harmonium
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RE: B737MAX A Dogs Dinner - Ryanair

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:30 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):

MOL was amusing for some number of years, now he's just arrogant and annoying. Id love Boeing and Airbus refuse to cut him any deals at all. He can't afford new aircraft at full price and such a stance will stop his growth cold.

In my wildest dreams I see Boeing and Airbus refusing to sell him any aircraft at all.

Seriously, with Norwegian committing to the MAX and neo, FR can ill afford not to order either.


Couldn't have put it in better words myself. I'm sick and tired of his PR stunts. But even more, I'm sick and tired of the media jumping the gun every single time he opens his mouth.

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