Indian Aviation Thread: Part 96

JOYA380B747 · Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:16 pm

Much appreciated for the upload, Thanks a ton

Whats remains to be seen also is how well are they going to develop the airport complexes, approach roads like easing traffic at VIP road-airport road-Barasat crossings, and also whether the train link is going to be converted and merged with the new Metro routes at least in this decade or not.

aeroblogger · Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:50 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 99):

Looking nice

ojas · Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 91):
If its an A330, then most definitely parking in the international apron. I very much doubt BOM airport has provision for a Code D in the domestic side. May be in Terminal 1A.

Ojas? Any idea?

At BOM, it is the international apron and mostly at some remote bay, the same can be done at BLR.

pnd100 · Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 99):

Amazing sankaps! Thanks for the upload of a great shot. Looks like the October prediction is more reasonable but it's looking better than expected. Fingers crossed that the staff, procedure, cleanliness is also up to par. Maybe there is some hope for CCU after all?

COEWR787 · Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:14 pm

I am looking forward to use the new terminal at CCU when I visit in December. It is starting to look real finally!

sankaps · Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:30 am

Another, closer view of the CCU terminal under construction, from the series of photos taken upon takeoff yesterday...

CCU new airport terminal under construction, photo taken April 15, 2012

[Edited 2012-04-15 17:31:15]

sankaps · Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:49 am

Scale relative to existing CCU domestic terminal (completed in the 90s, but looks like it could be from the 50s!) is evident in this photo (note that only half of each terminal is visible here)

CCU new terminal scale vs current domestic terminal

BLRAviation · Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:16 am

Quoting ojas (Reply 102):
At BOM, it is the international apron and mostly at some remote bay, the same can be done at BLR.

Bangalore, all contact stands and mixed 2 x Code C / 1 x Code E capable. But I understand AI has not yet commenced A330 ops in BLR. Still all narrow body.

HAWK21M · Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:55 am

Amazing pics of CCU.

pnd100 · Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:40 pm

You guys need to help me, historically speaking it is scary to look forward to any project related to Kolkata & CCU. We've been let down so many times before

sankaps, your pictures have given us a dangerous hope! Bring me back down to earth with tales of delayed construction or missing items. I mean right now I am actually thinking there is hope for CCU after all! :p

anshuk · Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 107):
Bangalore, all contact stands and mixed 2 x Code C / 1 x Code E capable. But I understand AI has not yet commenced A330 ops in BLR. Still all narrow body.

Just checked for flights on the AI website, the A330 is definitely operating into BLR. Not sure on what days, but until unless the maiden flight is day after tomorrow, this is not the case.

JOYA380B747 · Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 106):
Scale relative to existing CCU domestic terminal (completed in the 90s, but looks like it could be from the 50s!) is evident in this photo (note that only half of each terminal is visible here)

But if you look at it.... when the domestic terminal was upgraded in the mid/late 90s, it was the best domestic terminal in India, with high ceilings, double floors and escalators jetways and all, I still remember traveling through it when I was a kid.
DEL and BOM T1s were ridiculous compared to it, then.....

and then we grew up, but CCU never did... up until now

LAXDESI · Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:57 pm

Update on India's plan to develop 90-seat aircraft. Expected to cost nearly $1 billion to design, and another $600 million for test aircraft and testing.
http://www1.economictimes.indiatimes...gn-bureau/articleshow/12685860.cms

Quote:
India is working on developing its own 90-seater civilian aircraft with the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) saying "the strategy for its production has already been evolved" with the design "planned to have unique features like enhanced fuel efficiency, use of bio fuel with low carbon footprint, short to long range haul, shorter air strip requirement and ultra modern avionics".

A design bureau has been set up to undertake indigenous design and development of the plane, called the National Civil Aircraft (NCA-90 ). A total of seven prototypes are proposed to be developed by CSIR along with the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) "to prove the design and demonstrate compliance with respect to airworthiness requirements and certification".

According to the CSIR, most developed countries have their own national aircraft. "It is a niche technology. No country wants to share it with others. India has its desired expertise through NAL to develop its very own national civilian aircraft," Dr Kumar said.

anshuk · Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 112):
Update on India's plan to develop 90-seat aircraft. Expected to cost nearly $1 billion to design, and another $600 million for test aircraft and testing.
http://www1.economictimes.indiatimes...gn-bureau/articleshow/12685860.cms

Quote:

Is this some sort of an ego competition with Brazil and/or China? Until unless the Government forces AI to buy it, I doubt there are going to be too many customers for this $1.6 billion project!

pnd100 · Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting anshuk (Reply 113):
Is this some sort of an ego competition with Brazil and/or China? Until unless the Government forces AI to buy it, I doubt there are going to be too many customers for this $1.6 billion project!

I agree that buyers may be hard to find. They will have stiff competition though from established RJ manufacturers in Canada, Brazil, Russia & Ukraine along with the new players in China & Japan. However, even if the aircraft itself is not a commercial success it could still have ancillary benefits to Indian companies (parts, etc). At least the $1.6 billion project will gain technical expertise & experience for those in the Indian aerospace industry.

What kind of return do you think the Indian RJ project would have had with $6 billion instead of $1.6?

pnd100 · Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 111):
But if you look at it.... when the domestic terminal was upgraded in the mid/late 90s, it was the best domestic terminal in India, with high ceilings, double floors and escalators jetways and all, I still remember traveling through it when I was a kid.
DEL and BOM T1s were ridiculous compared to it, then.....

and then we grew up, but CCU never did... up until now

Agreed. Kolkata is strange in that sense. Infrastructure all over the city has this "frozen in time" quality to it. How it was then is how it still is years later. That may be great in terms of a historic monument but not for infrastructure that is meant to be used by millions. It is my sincere hope that the city gets this right. Upgrades when necessary. Maintenance on time. Otherwise it will go the way of other once proud buildings & systems in Kolkata.

sankaps · Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:05 am

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 115):
Agreed. Kolkata is strange in that sense. Infrastructure all over the city has this "frozen in time" quality to it. How it was then is how it still is years later. That may be great in terms of a historic monument but not for infrastructure that is meant to be used by millions.

There is actually a whole lot of infrastructure development going on in Calcutta right now (started by the previous regime, not the mad lady) -- Metro extension, flyovers, hotels, office complexes, malls, new residential developments, etc. The city looks like a construction site in many places, and that is a good thing. Would post some photos I have taken, but this is the wrong forum...

BLRAviation · Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:07 am

Quoting anshuk (Reply 110):
Just checked for flights on the AI website, the A330 is definitely operating into BLR. Not sure on what days, but until unless the maiden flight is day after tomorrow, this is not the case.

AI was supposed to operate an A330 but it is still A320 as of now. Got the information direct from airport operations, not AI web site.

LAXDESI · Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:32 am

The link below suggests that Indigo had profits in the range of $10-$20 million for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2012. It had reported a profit of nearly $120 million for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2011.
http://avindia.blogspot.com/2012/04/indigo-raises-hope-in-skies.html

Quote:
Amid the carnage in the Indian aviation sector, budget airline IndiGo, promoted by InterGlobe group, has recorded profits for last financial year. Industry official aver that IndiGo will be the only domestic airline to do so, in 2011-12.

BLRAviation · Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:51 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 118):
The link below suggests that Indigo had profits in the range of $10-$20 million for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2012.

There is no doubt that IndiGo is a well run and efficient operation. However, I get this niggling suspicion that their profits are more due to their sale and lease back rather than their operational efficiencies itself. I am hoping that I am wrong.

Pity they are not publicly listed.

cricket · Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:34 am

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 111):
But if you look at it.... when the domestic terminal was upgraded in the mid/late 90s, it was the best domestic terminal in India, with high ceilings, double floors and escalators jetways and all, I still remember traveling through it when I was a kid.

Hahahaha, so do I. In the early 90's Kolkata was one of the first domestic sides of any Indian airport to get aerobridges. I
used to fly IC 263/4 and IC 401/2 between DEL and CCU at least twice a year. The waitlists!

But these pics of the new terminal of CCU look really nice, but I hope they can finish it by the end of the year. And then not stop, use the new terminal as a basis to break down and rebuild the old side of the airport!

pnd100 · Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:48 am

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 119):
There is no doubt that IndiGo is a well run and efficient operation. However, I get this niggling suspicion that their profits are more due to their sale and lease back rather than their operational efficiencies itself. I am hoping that I am wrong.

Pity they are not publicly listed.

I agree that the profits may be more due to the sale / lease back. Having dealt with IndiGo for business I was also impressed with the "tight ship" their management appeared to run. They are among the most professional airlines in India in terms of staff. By the way BLRAviation, check your private messages.

HAWK21M · Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:36 am

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 119):
There is no doubt that IndiGo is a well run and efficient operation. However, I get this niggling suspicion that their profits are more due to their sale and lease back rather than their operational efficiencies itself.

The future quarters will determine the course of the next few yrs.

JOYA380B747 · Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 120):
But these pics of the new terminal of CCU look really nice, but I hope they can finish it by the end of the year. And then not stop, use the new terminal as a basis to break down and rebuild the old side of the airport!

Judging by the terminal design as sankaps pics point out, I'm pretty sure they have expansion in the future in mind. They can easily demolish the old terminals later and keep extending the new terminal once that reaches capacity, much like BLR terminal's extendable design.

In fact the sooner they finish the terminal, the quicker they can regain their lost position amongst the major Indian airports for both domestic and international pax. I still believe it can trounce COK, TRV, AMD, and others and maybe even HYD in international pax once the terminal is in full swing.

LAXDESI · Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:40 pm

Airfares on busy routes go up by 10-25 per cent. If sustained, higher fares should help the sector reduce its large losses.
http://www1.economictimes.indiatimes...-per-cent/articleshow/12718382.cms

Quote:
One reason for the high fares was that the airlines, including the no-frill carriers, were cashing in on the severely curtailed services of the ailing Kingfisher Airlines.

On the busiest Delhi-Mumbai route on which the last- minute return economy airfares averaged about Rs 9,000-10,000 in February when Kingfisher was carrying out large-scale cancellations, now range between a low of Rs 11,300 and a high of Rs 22,800.

Similarly, on the Delhi-Bangalore sector, economy return fares rose from an average of Rs 12,000-15,500 to Rs 17,000- 23,000. The Delhi-Kolkata route saw a jump from Rs 10,000- 12,000 to between Rs 15,000 and Rs 18,000, while that for Delhi-Srinagar ranged from Rs 10,500 to as high as Rs 34,194. The Delhi-Chennai return fare now ranges between Rs 15,000 and Rs 20,500, while that on the Delhi-Hyderabad sector between Rs 15,000 and Rs 19,000.

Travel agents also confirmed the development, saying reduction of Kingfisher flights on some sectors have led to almost doubling of fares, with low fare buckets vanishing very soon. They also expected the fares to shoot up further when the holiday season actually began in May.

LAXDESI · Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Spicejet(B737 fleet) says approached by Gulf, Asian carriers for a stake. FlyDubai(B738 fleet) and AirAsia(A320 fleet) as potential investors come to mind.
http://www1.economictimes.indiatimes...-carriers/articleshow/12720739.cms

Quote:
Spicejet has been approached by several Gulf-based and Southeast Asian airlines but will not jump into negotiations until the government reaches a crucial decision on foreign investment, its chief executive said on Wednesday.

"We have been approached by several Gulf and Southeast Asian airlines, all on a tentative basis," Neil Mills, the loss-making budget carrier's chief executive, told.

India allows up to 49 per cent foreign investment in Indian carriers but bars foreign carriers from picking up stakes. The government is expected to make a decision on Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) rules this week.

LAXDESI · Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:14 pm

Some good news for AI on revenue and load factor. Is it the Kingfisher effect?
http://avindia.blogspot.com/2012/04/...dia-bounces-back-with-healthy.html

Quote: Riding on high yields and an increased passenger load factor, state-owned Air India posted a healthy 46% revenue growth last month over the same period last year, airline sources said today.

"The yields on domestic sector had significant improvement of 38.5% in March vis-a-vis last year. The seat factor during this period also increased nearly 7.9%. Consequently, the airline posted a healthy growth in revenue of 46.1%," the sources told PTI.

HAWK21M · Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:23 am

When is the Foreign Airlines FDI in Indian aviation companies going to be permitted.......

aeroblogger · Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:25 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 127):
When is the Foreign Airlines FDI in Indian aviation companies going to be permitted.......

Don't hold your breath on it. It will happen eventually, but everyone is dragging their feet on this issue.

Gr8Circle · Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 126):
Some good news for AI on revenue and load factor. Is it the Kingfisher effect?

Good to hear this.....I'd say it is partly due to IT.....but there must be some other factors in play too....just hope it continues to stay that way and they don't slide back to their previous condition.....

lightsaber · Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:11 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 54):
This was done to increase the utilisation of bilateral rights, of which only 30-35% were so far used by Indian airlines.

That is a number I do not understand. The rights should be allocated on a 'use it or lose it' basis.

What is happening to IT's international rights and LHR slots?

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 66):
9W might just be pushed towards OneWorld as SkyTeam is actually looking at IndiGo as a feed partner a-la Gol in S. America.

I'd be curious to know more about this. Is Indigo pursuing code-shares?

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 126):
Riding on high yields and an increased passenger load factor, state-owned Air India posted a healthy 46% revenue growth last month over the same period last year, airline sources said today.

WOW! I have trouble imagining that is all the "Kingfisher effect." What has AI changed that might have attracted more business clientele?

Lightsaber

vin2basketball · Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 130):
Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 66):
9W might just be pushed towards OneWorld as SkyTeam is actually looking at IndiGo as a feed partner a-la Gol in S. America.

I'd be curious to know more about this. Is Indigo pursuing code-shares?

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 126):
Riding on high yields and an increased passenger load factor, state-owned Air India posted a healthy 46% revenue growth last month over the same period last year, airline sources said today.

WOW! I have trouble imagining that is all the "Kingfisher effect." What has AI changed that might have attracted more business clientele?

Lightsaber

At the moment, Indigo is being pursued more than actively pursuing anybody, but they will hit a "growth wall" at some point, when they'll have to consider them (a-la B6). SkyTeam really needs an Indian partner and Jet has apparently spurned their overtures

It's part KF effect, part Indian carriers haven't rushed back in to backfill all of KF's lost capacity, and part general economic growth.

anshuk · Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:13 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 130):
WOW! I have trouble imagining that is all the "Kingfisher effect." What has AI changed that might have attracted more business clientele?

I know my family all shifted to AI when IT started facing all those problems.. Its a pity, because the Kingfisher First AmEx card was so bloody good! So useful!

Boeing747_600 · Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 82):
Also will the Aussie flight be DEL-MEL-SYD as it says here OR DEL-MEL/ DEL-SYD

This idiotic fixation with DEL has annoys me to no end. Why the hell can't AI launch routes out of BLR and HYD with eh 787s?

Does anyone know if these 787s are going to be range-limited? I'm guessing that BLR-SFO is out of the reckoning.

[Edited 2012-04-25 15:33:16]

lightsaber · Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 131):
At the moment, Indigo is being pursued more than actively pursuing anybody, but they will hit a "growth wall" at some point, when they'll have to consider them (a-la B6). SkyTeam really needs an Indian partner and Jet has apparently spurned their overtures

So just speculation. While I agree Indigo will eventually 'hit a wall,' I think the A320NEO range delays when they have to partner. However, I could see them doing it earlier rather than later as 'insurance.'

However, now that IT has contracted, I would say that both OneWorld and Skyteam would be in play... (Just my opinion.) 9W will be the most sought after partner in India.

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 133):
Does anyone know if these 787s are going to be range-limited?

I've heard of ranges of 7450nm to 7600nm. While I cannot confirm the numbers, that is beyond BLR-SFO which is 7560nm with still air. In general, one needs to add 14% to 17% (more for shorter flights that cannot avoid the jetstream).

Lightsaber

abrelosojos · Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 133):
Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 82):
Also will the Aussie flight be DEL-MEL-SYD as it says here OR DEL-MEL/ DEL-SYD

This idiotic fixation with DEL has annoys me to no end. Why the hell can't AI launch routes out of BLR and HYD with eh 787s?

Does anyone know if these 787s are going to be range-limited? I'm guessing that BLR-SFO is out of the reckoning.

= It is actually sensible network planning. Demand from DEL is significantly more and higher yielding than BLR or HYD.

Saludos,
A.

aeroblogger · Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:54 am

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 133):

This idiotic fixation with DEL has annoys me to no end. Why the hell can't AI launch routes out of BLR and HYD with eh 787s?

Does anyone know if these 787s are going to be range-limited? I'm guessing that BLR-SFO is out of the reckoning.

The fixation with DEL is not at all idiotic. AI is building a hub. DEL has a nice terminal, good O&D, and good geographic positioning.

Unlike 9W, AI actually is able to give people in BLR, HYD, CCU 1 stop itineraries to the USA and Europe.

JOYA380B747 · Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:28 am

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 133):
This idiotic fixation with DEL has annoys me to no end.

Don't worry.... at the rate at which the charges are increasing at DEL now, both for the airlines and the passengers, if such increase continues with DEL for another round, I'm sure airlines will start backing out of there....

I'd love if someone shed light on the actual reason for this increase in charges and losses for GMR and also why isnt Govt doing something, after all it will benefit them too.

Nimish · Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:34 am

^^ That being said, with the tag of the "world's most expensive airport" soon - DEL is going to make airlines (and pax) cry with the fees!

Thomas_Jaeger · Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:28 pm

I am trying to do some research to find out which Kingfisher Airlines aircraft are still operating its reduced and now apparently fairly stable summer schedule. From what I can see, to operate the schedule, the following aircraft would be required overnighting at the different airports (or well, not really overnighting in the Port Blair case):

320 (6): PNQ, IXZ, BOM, BOM, BOM, DEL
321 (3): BOM, BOM, DEL
AT7 (8): BLR, BLR, BLR, DEL, DEL, DEL, DEL, BOM

Do you know which specific aircraft are still operating and which others have been stored somewhere in India instead. I assume the last two ATR 42-500s have been parked as well for example. Do you know where they are parked?

freqflyer · Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:28 am

I could count 8 parked IT ATR's at MAA last month alongwith a Deccan 360 ATR, apparently stored while another landed and taxied past . This was on 26 March IIRC. there was another ATR, probably IT, but its tail was hiden from view and I could not make out the other markings.

[Edited 2012-04-27 00:29:06]

BLRAviation · Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:41 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 134):

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 82):
Also will the Aussie flight be DEL-MEL-SYD as it says here OR DEL-MEL/ DEL-SYD

This idiotic fixation with DEL has annoys me to no end. Why the hell can't AI launch routes out of BLR and HYD with eh 787s?

Does anyone know if these 787s are going to be range-limited? I'm guessing that BLR-SFO is out of the reckoning.

Actually the number of students to Australia from north India is crazy. The total demand is much higher ex-Delhi and even ex-Mumbai, which made me wonder why Qantas operated a BOM-SIN flight.

BLRAviation · Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:53 am

Quoting Nimish (Reply 138):

^^ That being said, with the tag of the "world's most expensive airport" soon - DEL is going to make airlines (and pax) cry with the fees!

I did an analysis on the new fees at Delhi airport. http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/201...e-in-airport-charges-and-fees.html

It is high.

The international UDF table is below

Keep in mind this UDF is over an above the Rs. 1,300 ADF charged on international departing passengers, and PSF of Rs. 133 or 233 (there is some confusion there).

The domestic UDF table is below. Again ADF of Rs. 200 and PSF is extra.

A point that seems to have been missed by everyone is that these high fees are primarily due to the expense of building the luxurious T3. Yet, the passengers of LCCs, who are 60% of total traffic at DEL, and who use T1C and T1D also have to cough up these charges, despite the cost of their terminals being much much much lesser.

Doesn't this violates rules of natural justice? How do airports in other countries handle modernisation and their charges?

BLRAviation · Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:00 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 126):
Some good news for AI on revenue and load factor. Is it the Kingfisher effect?
http://avindia.blogspot.com/2012/04/....html

I hope you don't mind. AvIndia is just an aggregator site which copy pastes news stories from others. The URL for the source story is always below the post in "| To Read the News in Full |"

In this case http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report...ith-healthy-growth-revenue_1677567

IMHO, we should give links and credit where it is truly due. Thanks for time.

BLRAviation · Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:48 am

Lufthansa has confirmed it will upgrade FRA-DEL and FRA-BLR to B748i during this current summer 2012 schedule. This should occur ahead of its service upgrade to ORD and LAX (in this sequence) as per the release.

http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/201...news-lufthansa-upgrades-delhi.html

pnd100 · Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:32 am

9W announces the launch of a second daily flight from CCU-BKK.

9W072 1100 dep 1510 arr 737
9W071 1600 dep 1705 arr 737

http://www.jetairways.com/EN/IN/Pres.../KolkataandBangkok.aspx?tcid=9wfan

JOYA380B747 · Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 144):

Lufthansa has confirmed it will upgrade FRA-DEL and FRA-BLR to B748i during this current summer 2012 schedule. This should occur ahead of its service upgrade to ORD and LAX (in this sequence) as per the release.

marvellous news.... it seems I can finally fly the 748 this year after all...

thanks

darkroast · Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 146):

LH just became my first option to BLR this fall

HAWK21M · Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:37 pm

When is the 1st AI B787 scheduled to arrive?.

LAXDESI · Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:35 pm

New Kolkata airport terminal to be commissioned in four months.
http://www1.economictimes.indiatimes...ur-months/articleshow/12936450.cms

Quote:
The new terminal building of the NSC Bose International Airport here with four million passenger capacity would be commissioned within four months.

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