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ldvaviation
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting usxguy (Reply 50):
And everything I know (and people at AA) are all pointing to the 3 x 4 x 3 configuration, that will leave one open question - shouldn't they change their name? cause I don't know how many Americans will actually be able to fit in that tight seat!

Two solutions to the problem:

1) Americans can lose weight.

2) Americans can purchase a Business Class Seat.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:59 am

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 53):
Two solutions to the problem:

1) Americans can lose weight.

2) Americans can purchase a Business Class Seat.

Or:
3. Avoid the airline altogether.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
ldvaviation
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:16 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 54):
Or:
3. Avoid the airline altogether.

So be it. But consumers who are price-sensitive rarely have that choice (in the absolute).
 
AAIL86
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:43 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 51):
Get used to it. Fuel is getting more expensive and people aren't willing to pay more to fly. It's only a matter of time before 3x4x3 becomes the norm among all airlines, regardless of whether AA decides to go for such a configuration on the 77W.

Given that this is true- shouldn't the model be: Bare-bones, cramped Y with minimal fuss for absolute lowest fare ; comfortable premium economy with more features and modest up-charge (say, 20-40% depending on advance purchase) and course the obligatory J and perhaps F?

Personally I think AA is making another mistake with the main cabin extra approach. They could steal a march on their US competitors by launching a true W for long-haul aircraft- upgraded seats- nicer dining and IFE -etc and have a fairly comparable setup with BA/QF/CX. Instead, they slavishly copy UA and DL's product....

I'll tell you why, though- AA still hasn't forgotten the More Room fiasco and doesn't want to introduce anything too exciting for fear it will blow up in their faces again.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 54):
Or:
3. Avoid the airline altogether.

People pay to fly NK.... they also pay to fly AA763s, UA 747s, and ratty AZ 763s. Do you really think they'll punish AA for their newest aircraft?
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason - Benjamim Franklin
 
questions
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:31 am

What are the cabin widths of the 747, 777, 787, 330/340?
 
UAL777UK
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:33 am

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 55):
So be it. But consumers who are price-sensitive rarely have that choice

On routes where AA will fly the 77W they probably will have a choice of another carrier at similar prices unless AA go the route of bucket shop.

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 56):
People pay to fly NK.... they also pay to fly AA763s, UA 747s, and ratty AZ 763s. Do you really think they'll punish AA for their newest aircraft?

Whats that got to do with it? NK are cramped but dont fly long haul where AAs 77W will. For more than say 7 hours on NK I get you but do they have a flight that long?
As for AA763, UA747 and AZ763 again not sure where you are going with that. They dont have an extra seat in Y that makes long haul even worse that it might already be so you have lost me there i am afraid. This thread is about seat width nothing more.
Being a new aircraft is irrelevant IMHO.
 
qf002
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 58):
NK are cramped but dont fly long haul where AAs 77W will.

I didn't realise that passengers were leaving EK, EY, AF, KL, NZ etc in droves. Aren't some of these among the most successful and strongest airlines at the moment, in terms of passenger numbers and profits?

I don't advocate for 10 abreast in the 777, I just get sick of the argument that passengers will up and go. It simply does not work like that.
 
rwsea
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:27 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 60):
I didn't realise that passengers were leaving EK, EY, AF, KL, NZ etc in droves. Aren't some of these among the most successful and strongest airlines at the moment, in terms of passenger numbers and profits?

AF has a lot bigger problems than 10-abreast on the 773, but it is certainly NOT amongst the most successful and strongest airlines at the moment. KL is believed to be doing better, but gets dragged down with the rest of AF.

Personally I will never set foot an an AF 777 or KL 773 in Coach, and I know many other FlyingBlue Platinum members who agree with me.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:01 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 60):
I didn't realise that passengers were leaving EK, EY, AF, KL, NZ etc in droves. Aren't some of these among the most successful and strongest airlines at the moment, in terms of passenger numbers and profits?

I don't advocate for 10 abreast in the 777, I just get sick of the argument that passengers will up and go. It simply does not work like that.

That 10-Y was distinctly painful on my 7 hour quick hop from JFK to CDG... can't imagine doing it for 13+ hours.

That experience has alone has reminded me to actively above 10Y whenever a reasonably priced alternative is possible. Airlines who do that either have an incentive to weaken Y in order to promote Y+ (NZ), or care more about lowering CASM with bottom feeders than actually providing good service (EK).

You have listed what? 5 or 6 airlines that use 10Y? Compare that to all the other 777 operators, I think it's clear where the market is voting.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:31 pm

Isnt all this 10-Y talk a bit premature? There have been no confirmations of seating configuration, yet this board is blowing up with the rumors.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
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usxguy
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:38 pm

... because some of us know people at AA who *do know*.... however its too late. I am part of the crowd that will actively book away from AA's 777.
xx
 
aacun
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:55 pm

Very interesting to hear that people will stay away from booking an AA 777 beacuse of a 3 4 3 configuration. People, this is reality. Airlines cannot support a business giving customers more without getting more from them. I have been with AA for over 25 years, and it is amazing that a ticket in a lot of cases, cost less now that when I started flying. How can you guys expect for a company to stay in business when everything around us cost more and more every day. I love to hear people complaint about airline ticket prices. If you want to pay 590 dollars return (and I have seen the ads in Montevideo) to go to the United States, and the ability to pay thru installments, then youre going to have to compromise somewhere. If you are willing to pay a little more, then you get to sit in a more comfortable coach seat or perhaps in a Premium cabin.
The choices are there, but reality is reality. And just wait and see. If AA goes 3 4 3 in coach on the 777 and can keep prices in check with the competiton, even if it means a 20 or 30 dollar difference........... Passengers will book it. or just ask Spirit passengers. Its all about $$$$$$$$$
 
777STL
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:55 pm

Quoting aacun (Reply 66):
The choices are there, but reality is reality. And just wait and see. If AA goes 3 4 3 in coach on the 777 and can keep prices in check with the competiton, even if it means a 20 or 30 dollar difference........... Passengers will book it. or just ask Spirit passengers. Its all about $$$$$$$$$

Unfortunately, I agree with you, and that's why AA and other airlines continue this race to the bottom. Most people either don't know enough to avoid a 3-4-3 configuration, or, they're price conscious to the point where they won't care. It's all about the cheapest price that pops up on Expedia or Travelocity. Anyone who flies frequently and/or on someone else's dime will either be flying premium class, or have the elite status to upgrade to Y+.

However, as a non-elite flier that prefers AA, I will actively avoid the 3-4-3 configured birds should AA bring them to fruition. UA, here I come....
PHX based
 
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usxguy
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:12 pm

... but the fact is some of us DO notice and DO pay more. I'm paying for first class on Alaska Airlines fairly soon because its a longer flight and the difference between coach and first is small enough that it is worthwhile for me. When I fly to Hawai'i, I have a choice between a $350 one way seat in Coach or grab First Class for about $500-$600 each way. More than likely I'll be up front. (and no status on AS, btw). My trip to Panama in August will be based on overall comfort, not loyalty to any particular brand. I will even book away from UA unless I know, for a fact, that the plane doing IAH-PTY will have Economy Plus - I'd rather fly DL via ATL and end up with more legroom in their section.

When United came out with Economy Plus, I moved *all* of my business over and became a Premier Exec in no time, and pretty soon joined the Red Carpet Club and climbed the ranks.

My trip to Dubai on EK was in business both ways (no way in hell I'd be stuck in coach that long)

This is going to be an interesting plane for AA as its definitely a plane for the 99% - cause the top 1% will be able to afford business/first and the rest will be squeezed into RJ-sized seats in the back. I mention this because, unlike Alaska, the fare polarity between F/C/Y is HUGE....
xx
 
roseflyer
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 71):

This is going to be an interesting plane for AA as its definitely a plane for the 99% - cause the top 1% will be able to afford business/first and the rest will be squeezed into RJ-sized seats in the back. I mention this because, unlike Alaska, the fare polarity between F/C/Y is HUGE....

For the 5% that care, there's a new premium economy that is speculated to be at 3-3-3. For the 95% of economy passengers booking on price alone, then there's 3-4-3. That makes sense to me. For the few that will pay more or loyal elites, give them something better.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 62):

You have listed what? 5 or 6 airlines that use 10Y? Compare that to all the other 777 operators, I think it's clear where the market is voting.

Right now for 77W customers, which is the majority of the 777s rolling off the line, it is about a 50-50 split between 9 and 10 abreast.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
mogandoCI
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 72):
For the 5% that care, there's a new premium economy that is speculated to be at 3-3-3. For the 95% of economy passengers booking on price alone, then there's 3-4-3. That makes sense to me. For the few that will pay more or loyal elites, give them something better.

That's the most uncompetitive premium economy i've heard of : 3-3-3

3-3-3 is industry standard Y and now AA calls it W all of a sudden it's "something better" ??

for the rest of the customers who haven't sold their souls to oneworld status, UA gives them the same 3-3-3 seat and extra legroom for barely above the price of regular coach.
 
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usxguy
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 73):
for the rest of the customers who haven't sold their souls to oneworld status, UA gives them the same 3-3-3 seat and extra legroom for barely above the price of regular coach.

And that is the purpose of most of this thread.... AA marketing is doing its best to SPIN this airplane... up front looks marvelous - lets give them credit where its due. However, once you pass that curtain in business, its an entirely different critter.
xx
 
MAH4546
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 73):

That's the most uncompetitive premium economy i've heard of : 3-3-3

3-3-3 is industry standard Y and now AA calls it W all of a sudden it's "something better" ??

for the rest of the customers who haven't sold their souls to oneworld status, UA gives them the same 3-3-3 seat and extra legroom for barely above the price of regular coach.

It is not premium economy! It is an extra legroom section that will be free for elites.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 74):
And that is the purpose of most of this thread.... AA marketing is doing its best to SPIN this airplane... up front looks marvelous - lets give them credit where its due. However, once you pass that curtain in business, its an entirely different critter.

Seems the purpose of this thread is more about spreading misinformation above anything else.
a.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:37 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 75):
Seems the purpose of this thread is more about spreading misinformation above anything else.

And you have concrete verified info that it's *not* 3-4-3 ?
 
MAH4546
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 76):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 75):
Seems the purpose of this thread is more about spreading misinformation above anything else.

And you have concrete verified info that it's *not* 3-4-3 ?


The only thing known so far is that it's 8F.
a.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 77):
The only thing known so far is that it's 8F.

Actually we also know it's 1-2-1 J, but not everyone is the 1% that affords F/J. We care about Y too.
 
ldvaviation
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:25 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 75):
Seems the purpose of this thread is more about spreading misinformation above anything else.

Believe me, if AA had made the decision to install its current business class product on these planes, or even a true lie-flat without full aisle access, the same people would be complaining about that instead of seats in Y.

But since it so happens that AA trumped everyone, including its critics here, with its first and business class products, the same people have to look for something else to criticize. It is AA after all.

[Edited 2012-03-07 13:21:44]
 
mogandoCI
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 79):
But since it so happens that AA trumped everyone, including its critics here, with its first and business calls products, the same people have to look for something else to criticize. It is AA after all.

AA's new first is on par with UA, and far behind SQ or EK. AA's new business is the last among the big 3 legacies to be flat bed. That's hardly "trumping."

That's the same school of thought that brags about how great LHR and GRU is, because the rest of the international network is way sub-par.
 
AAIL86
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 58):
As for AA763, UA747 and AZ763 again not sure where you are going with that. They dont have an extra seat in Y that makes long haul even worse that it might already be so you have lost me there i am afraid. This thread is about seat width nothing more.

Those are all aircraft that most of us would consider to have a sub-par hard product... yet people still pay to fly them all the time....

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 79):
But since it so happens that AA trumped everyone, including its critics here, with its first and business calls products, the same people have to look for something else to criticize. It is AA after all.

Good point.
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason - Benjamim Franklin
 
ldvaviation
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 80):
AA's new first is on par with UA, and far behind SQ or EK. AA's new business is the last among the big 3 legacies to be flat bed. That's hardly "trumping."

That's the same school of thought that brags about how great LHR and GRU is, because the rest of the international network is way sub-par.
AA's new first is a true suite, meaning the seat is independent of the shell enclosure, just what one would expect in a true international F product. UA's first seat is more of a business class pod. Indeed, UA's first seat looks more like AA's new business class seat.

From the renderings, it appears that the fit and finish on AA's seat will be much better than UA's, and on par with BA's seat. AA's design eliminates all the clutter along the console/armrests and any sense of compression from the shell. As such, it creates the impression of a high-end piece of furniture. (I especially like how AA took the seat controls out of the armrests and relocated them to a remote control.)

As to AA's business class seat, they may be the last with a true lie-flat, but by waiting they ended up with the best product. The seat is almost identical to Cathay's seat. Cathay's seat is a highly specialized version of the Sicma Cirrus seat. It has more actuators than the basic version of this seat on Delta and US and it is more highly detailed. In modifying the seat for its own use, AA added an actuator for the headrest, making it electronically adjustable as well.

I have sat in the Cathay version of the seat and it trumps UA's seat in almost every way. The Cathay seat offers aisle access at every seat; it offers more privacy, better sight lines, and more storage space; the location of the IFE screen is more discrete; the finishes and overall design make it seem like a piece of furniture.

[Edited 2012-03-07 13:27:14]
 
AABB777
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:32 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 74):
And that is the purpose of most of this thread.... AA marketing is doing its best to SPIN this airplane... up front looks marvelous - lets give them credit where its due. However, once you pass that curtain in business, its an entirely different critter.

Upfront can also be attributed to higher revenue for AA and a higher ATV. Upfront customers - F & J - are also more product-sensitive & brand loyal vs those in the back of the bus who buy mostly on price. Hence why you see many 77W operators going to 10 abreast in Y. It makes economical sense.
 
qf002
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 62):
You have listed what? 5 or 6 airlines that use 10Y? Compare that to all the other 777 operators, I think it's clear where the market is voting.

5-6 airlines, who operate what, 25-30% of all 777's across the world between them? By the time you add in the few others, UU, NH (domestic) etc, you're looking at a pretty hefty proportion of aircraft which are fitted with 10 abreast.

Given that we have lost inches of pitch and width over the past 10-15 years, I think it's clear what the trend is.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:34 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 85):
5-6 airlines, who operate what, 25-30% of all 777's across the world between them? By the time you add in the few others, UU, NH (domestic) etc, you're looking at a pretty hefty proportion of aircraft which are fitted with 10 abreast.

Given that we have lost inches of pitch and width over the past 10-15 years, I think it's clear what the trend is.

And have you noticed EK's service and customer reputation has dropped off a bit?

At least NZ was innovative enough to come up with the 3-seat economy bed concept to compensate for 10Y. And they've more than made up for it by having the widest 2-2-2 premium economy of any airline.

NH is not really comparable here either. A 2 hour domestic hop on a plane filled with skinner Asians compared to 10 hour flights on 3-4-3 on a plane filled with "full bodied" Americans.

If AA charges the same price as UA/DL for less comfort, what's the incentive to fly them ? (UA/DL has miles and status too, so that's not a valid one)
 
ripcordd
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:56 pm

Well AA just broke out that Y+ in the 777-300 will 3-5-3 and Reg Coach will 3-6-3 and Sub Par coach will be 4-7-4 in all standing room only section. Wait till it is annouced that is something they can change at the last minute. But 99% wont care cause its all about $$. If people cared about more room MRTC would have never gone away and the likes of UA/DL/NW/CO/US all would have had to follow AA but the all mighty $$ won out..
 
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LOWS
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 87):
Well AA just broke out that Y+ in the 777-300 will 3-5-3 and Reg Coach will 3-6-3 and Sub Par coach will be 4-7-4 in all standing room only section. Wait till it is annouced that is something they can change at the last minute. But 99% wont care cause its all about $$. If people cared about more room MRTC would have never gone away and the likes of UA/DL/NW/CO/US all would have had to follow AA but the all mighty $$ won out..

And just when I was hoping they'd go with those saddle seat things with 20" at 6-6-6 across.
 
MAH4546
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:45 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 86):
If AA charges the same price as UA/DL for less comfort, what's the incentive to fly them ? (UA/DL has miles and status too, so that's not a valid one)

For one, a superior mileage redemption and elite program that actually allows people to redeem miles on popular flights and doesn't restrict upgrade awards on fare class; not to mention the best domestic premium service bar none. And for those of us that aren't fat, a 10 across Y cabin is probably just fine. Not to mention that most people don't know, don't care.

What's going to be your whiny excuse when UA and DL introduce 10 across? Because its going to happen. Even if AA goes 9 across with the 77W, get ready for reality: 10 across will become the new normal.
a.
 
SXDFC
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:05 am

Does anyone know the registrations of the first 77Ws?
 
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usxguy
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:41 am

so a little e-mail from a pal in mgt at American is saying that it looks like they are reshuffling the configuration of the airplane, so it sounds like there could be some struggling between going with 10 abreast vs 9....
xx
 
NZ1
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:29 am

Hi Everyone,

Please kindly remember to keep on topic. Also try to respect that others do have differing opinions, all of which are welcome provided they comply with the rules.

Further intervention in this thread by the moderator team will like see this thread archived.

Thanks

NZ1
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NZ1
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AAplat4life
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:07 pm

AA's issue is not whether it can get away with more coach seats per row based on EK and AF has done, but whether it can do this based on UA and DL. AA's reputation is now tarnished enough and it is not going to want to roll out the new 77Ws with 10 seats per coach row only to have to reconfigure them because of its competitors. Adding a few more inches of legroom for status and paying passengers is not going to be enough to address the width issue. In fact, AA's coach seats in its 772ERs are not bad at all in terms of pitch and width, although the entertainment system is pretty basic (but I bring my own anyway).
 
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RobK
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:22 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 81):
Does anyone know the registrations of the first 77Ws?

WE301 N717AN 31543
WE302 N718AN 41665
 
airbazar
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:03 pm

There are a couple of things that the AA chearleaders are missing completely. That is the impact that a bad experience can have for the rest of the network and the customer composition.
AA is not EK, AF, EY, NZ, etc... AA's customer base in Y are American passenger who also fly domestic routes. They're also on average larger than people in other parts of the world. As most of us agree, these are customers who really don't care much, or know anything about airplane models, seat pitch and how many seats per row. They just care about the fare. But this ignorance could work against AA. One miserable long haul experience in a cramped AA 77W economy cabin is enough to leave a mark on anyone and the next time these people will want to travel somewhere they will remember that miserable experience that they had on AA. In other words, passenger ignorance, over time, could work against AA on their entire network not just where they fly 77Ws. EK, AF, EY, NZ, etc, don't have nearly the domestic and short haul business that AA has and lets face it, their soft product in Y is eons ahead of AA which helps soften things up.
 
klkla
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RE: American 777-300ER Updates?

Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 80):
not to mention the best domestic premium service bar none

LOL  

But on a serious subject has AA announced what the total seat count will be on the 773?

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