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AirframeAS
Posts: 9855
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:08 am

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 192):
Tom Petters former owner of Sun Country/Petters World Wide/etc.. Jailed for fraud, to the tune of several Billion dollars.

Thanks for the correction.

Quoting illinoisman (Reply 193):
Oh, by the way, the annual cost savings will not be dramatically different.

Oh, yes they will. There will be no waste after each flight. They will be re-used.

Quoting illinoisman (Reply 193):
the SAME E170s F9 had just dumped!

Uh..... F9 did not dump the 170. Republic did that. It is their metal, not F9's. Remember who owns F9. As for the 717's, they were gone before Republic ever set a foot on the property.

Quoting illinoisman (Reply 193):
Tim Hoeksema is laughing all the way to the bank! After he gutted the company and then robbed YX of over 10 million dollars when he retired, the airline was just a shell of what it had previously been.

This is exactly who you should be angry with, not BB nor Seigel. Be angry with Tim. F9 did not do anything to you. By the way, YOU chose to fly on F9. It was YOUR choice. Man up about it and quit complaining!

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 198):
Are those planned to be repainted soon or are those two projected to leave the fleet soon?

I was told that they would be out of service (whatever this means...parked or put into contract flying, who knows....) and repainted in the Republic scheme at the end of August. This came from a Republic pilot so I do not know how much truth is to that.... considering the source.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:08 am

The double miles to COS was advertised very soon after they were announced. It's clearly not based on performance I think they want to attract people to try COS. It is a very quick airport to get in and out of compared to DIA and you can walk in two minutes casually from long term 6 dollars day parking to the check in counters.


I have been unscientific looking at cos-lax this summer and the seat maps are showing a good amount of people in the seats and fares are mostly higher than denver which is really the good part. Let's hope these flights do well out of cos. I have been a fan of cos trial for along time they have the FF base, fans, name recognition, advertise alot already interest tv markets, and COS had high fares and weak service west let's just hope they can get enough of a premium over denver to make them last
 
bjorn14
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:04 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 175):
It will probably fail if that is all they have there. They need more than that.

I haven't read F9's application but I'll bet there is enough O&D to support at least an E190 on that route. How many connecting lower yielding pax can they expect from just a few routes anyway. The caveat is how will UAX react price wise on their COS-IAD route.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
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enilria
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 176):
Quoting enilria (Reply 175):
Uptick in fuel probably outweighs the economy
Going down over the last week. Maybe it's topped out.

The history chart shows that oil nearly always peaks about 1/2 through Summer and then drifts down into Fall.

Quoting mariner (Reply 177):
Quoting enilria (Reply 175):
LOL. So much for save the cookie...

LOL indeed. Midwest may have saved the cookie - but the cookie sure didn't save Midwest.

I'd argue that "saving the cookie" (fighting the Airtran offer) is what destroyed Midwest.

If you mean the ill-advised expansion they undertook for that purpose, I agree. OTOH, it saved AirTran so they could be bought by WN.

Quoting mariner (Reply 179):
Quoting rampart (Reply 176):
Going down over the last week. Maybe it's topped out.

Both Brent Crude and WTI are up again today - Brent back at $125:

Yeah, I get confused all the time looking at the Brent price and then the WTI price. It sounds like the crack spread is equalizing jet fuel prices? In other words, the crack spread is ridiculously high in the USA offsetting the base price differential?

Quoting n7371f (Reply 181):
Quoting enilria (Reply 175):
It may be that they are now waiting to see if they can get Pinnacle's Q400 contract.

Good thinking...And it just might be exactly what's going on. Keeping the Q400 flying makes it a lot easier to bring Colgan's Q's onto the operating certificate...a lot easier.
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 194):
Quoting enilria (Reply 175):
It may be that they are now waiting to see if they can get Pinnacle's Q400 contract.

That is my assumption. The Canadian Export Bank claimed today that United has a contract lined up. (The link is in the PInnacle bankruptcy thread)

If it turns out that is why they are keeping the Q400s then BB has finally made a smart fleet move, but I'm going to reserve judgment. BTW, I'd assume the buyer in UA. I'd be shocked if RJET was even able to finance the fleet purchase...or if they'd even want the risk. I'd guess that BB wants to only operate them and not be on the hook for them.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 202):
Quoting enilria (Reply 175):
It will probably fail if that is all they have there. They need more than that.

I haven't read F9's application but I'll bet there is enough O&D to support at least an E190 on that route. How many connecting lower yielding pax can they expect from just a few routes anyway. The caveat is how will UAX react price wise on their COS-IAD route.

I'm saying that if COS becomes just DEN and DCA then DCA won't be sustainable. You need more service than that to make a p2p route work.
 
F9Animal
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 167):
It is about time and something that I have always supported in removing them. They are/were a burden on the ops and money was being thrown away. Better late than never, I am just glad they are being phased out. A step in the right direction, so far!

I bet the folks at F9 Catering is sighing with relief!  

I think we both sent suggestions to the top about the need to let the cookie go. It is a cost that made no sense for the visions and way F9 was heading. It really makes no sense especially now that F9 is going ULCC. I admit, I loved the cookie. But, I also understood it was a bit costly. I think you and I also shared the same sentiments bout MKE! Lol

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 170):
I doubt F9 can survive as an ULCC like Spirit. Spirit at least serves highly price elastic VFR and leisure markets. By going ULCC in business markets from DEN, all F9 will do is trash their own yields as biz pax flock to WN or UA.

If I got a dollar for every time someone calculated the demise of Frontier, I would be very rich! I once took these comments to heart, and lashed back. That was until I went to the doc and learned my blood pressure was high! We are all entitled to opinions. I disagree with your outlook.

I do however understand why you are upset with Frontier. With MKE being turned into a ghost town. I spent two weeks in MKE training at F9. I enjoyed every single moment of my time there. I met some of the most amazing people that worked for YX. The stories they shared, the laughs we had, and watching them work was a memory I will never forget. So friendly, and so genuine they are! I spent plenty of time at that bar across the street with Bud the bartender. You know the bar with the Cessna on the roof? Oh man, the food and drink are amazing. The old set of YX seats and YX memorabilia was fun in that bar. Bud told me it was a huge YX hangout after work. If you happen to stop by that bar, make sure to strike up a conversation with Bud! And the Bloody Mary they serve is a darned meal!

Anyways, I left MKE with hopes it would survive and grow. I was deeply saddened to later learn that MKE was hurting the operation of Frontier. I was further saddened to see the massive cuts of service. What saddened me and hurt most was learning of so many jobs lost. It was like losing a good friend. You have a legitimate reason to be unhappy about it. I am not going to try and sway your opinion either. I just wanted to share my sorrows of MKE with you. MKE is a classic reason for me to lose the passion I once had for this industry. I have watched too many people lose jobs, not just at F9. I have been watching Pinnacle lately, and am appalled with Menke.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
FRNT787
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 200):
Uh..... F9 did not dump the 170. Republic did that. It is their metal, not F9's. Remember who owns F9. As for the 717's, they were gone before Republic ever set a foot on the property.

I assume he was referring to when Menke cancelled the Republic E170 contract immediately after entering bankruptcy. Republic a few months later signed a deal to move 14 of those over to a Midwest contract and I believe the other 3 eventually went over to Mokulele (which is how they eventually made it back into Frontier operations).

Quoting enilria (Reply 203):
BTW, I'd assume the buyer in UA. I'd be shocked if RJET was even able to finance the fleet purchase...or if they'd even want the risk. I'd guess that BB wants to only operate them and not be on the hook for them.

That was my assumption as well. We would see a deal similar to what ExpressJet had with Continental (and I assume now United). I would not want to be on the hook for them, if they grow out of favor with United, there are still not that many airlines clamoring for them.
 
FRNT787
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:13 pm

A bit of news today:
http://media.frontierairlines.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5344

The smaller news: For the Summer season, Cabo San Lucas will see a second weekly flight on Wednesday:

New Schedule: Effective May 23-August 8 (Saturday remains year round service)

DEN-SJD 8:36am-11:39am Wed, Sat A319
SJD-DEN 12:30am-3:33pm Wed, Sat A319


Other News:

Punta Cana, Dominican Republic has been announced through the summer

Schedule: June 9-August 4

DEN-PUJ 8:05am-3:30pm Sat A319
PUJ-DEN 4:20pm-8:30pm Sat A319

Its not a lot of flights, but it'll definitely be a good toe in the water try, and a nice addition I think.
 
mikefrommke
Posts: 223
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 206):
Punta Cana, Dominican Republic has been announced through the summer

All of the other PUJ routes are now on the route map and in the booking engine too, so I wonder if they'll get a separate announcement or what.
 
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enilria
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 205):
That was my assumption as well. We would see a deal similar to what ExpressJet had with Continental (and I assume now United). I would not want to be on the hook for them, if they grow out of favor with United, there are still not that many airlines clamoring for them.

Plus we know BB is no fan of the Q400.

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 206):
New Schedule: Effective May 23-August 8 (Saturday remains year round service)

DEN-SJD 8:36am-11:39am Wed, Sat A319
SJD-DEN 12:30am-3:33pm Wed, Sat A319

Isn't one or now 2/week pretty light compared to what they used to operate in months like June? I thought they used to do it daily every month except Sep/Oct/Nov. SJD has been pretty safe from Mexico's troubles.

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 206):
Punta Cana, Dominican Republic has been announced through the summer

In my OAG thread I was happy to see the PUJ flights are going to operate in the Apple markets during SEP. I expected Apple to pull their blocks for low season leaving F9 with planes/crews sitting around. That appears to be good news.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 203):
Yeah, I get confused all the time looking at the Brent price and then the WTI price. It sounds like the crack spread is equalizing jet fuel prices?

I'm not an expert on all this and I am deeply cynical about the oil trading market. When I hear oil analysts explain the high price - and the disparity between WTI and Brent - I start to think I'm standing in a paddock full of livestock.

I see the rampant oil market as a cancer feeding on the very thing it needs to live and eventually destroying that host - short term greed trumping long term fear.

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 207):
All of the other PUJ routes are now on the route map and in the booking engine too, so I wonder if they'll get a separate announcement or what.

There are still a couple of CUN routes that aren't loaded - PIT and CVG - and I'm not seeing HUX on the map yet - curses!  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
mikefrommke
Posts: 223
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 209):
There are still a couple of CUN routes that aren't loaded - PIT and CVG - and I'm not seeing HUX on the map yet - curses!

At least it's progress. I was beginning to think they didn't know what the Dominican Republic looked like on a map.
 
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illinoisman
Posts: 225
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:59 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 182):
All you have done was bash F9 to no end. I don't know what will satisfy you.
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 197):
I can't help but think you are just looking for a scapegoat for why Midwest is no more. It is absolutely not F9 or Brian Bedford's fault.

YX was ruined from a passenger's point of view when it was purchased by F9/RW. The attitude of the people here changed and I had 3 consecutive bad experiences including a flight cancellation. I can just imagine the pride the flight attendants will exhibit in handing out animal crackers to the socially elite. Time to send F9 to the abyss.
 
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mke717spotter
Posts: 2168
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 197):
The fact that F9 is now also gutting MCI should show that there really wasn't much value to the YX network.

Really? Then someone might have to explain to me how YX managed to stay afloat for over 25 years.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 197):
I would even venture to say that the remaining E190 flights out of MKE to MCO, DCA, and LGA are doing poorly as well.

Not a surprise considering they've gutted the connecting feed and FL/WN have much better frequency/timing options on those routes.

Quoting illinoisman (Reply 211):
I can just imagine the pride the flight attendants will exhibit in handing out animal crackers to the socially elite.

For the record, F9 is at best a tourist airline and almost completely devoid of business travelers - not exactly the social elites.
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 204):
I have been watching Pinnacle lately, and am appalled with Menke.

Sorry, F9. I had an issue with the way SM left Frontier/Republic (and I copped flak for saying that here), but I have considerably sympathy for him in this present situation.

He didn't create the mess at Pinnacle, he's the one cleaning it up.

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 210):
At least it's progress. I was beginning to think they didn't know what the Dominican Republic looked like on a map.

That may be the danger of too much knowledge, too soon, as happens here a lot.

If someone - and it may have been me - hadn't blabbed about the DOT filing, few of us would have known it was even on the cards. I doubt the traveling public knew.

I thought they might just sneak the PUJ routes in, as they have with all but the DEN-PUJ flights and as they did with some of the more CUN flights (PHL/CLE/RFD) and I later learned there are reasons for that.

I'm just happy to see DEN-PUJ getting the treatment, but gee, it's a looong flight - 5 hours 25 minutes going, 6 hours 10 minutes coming back and is at the edge of the A319 range.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
point2point
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting illinoisman (Reply 211):
Time to send F9 to the abyss.

WOW!!

Really showing a heart of gold for all of the good, hard working employees of F9 and RAH, and just sending them out into the streets, eh?

BTW, I've traveled F9 so many times that I've lost count, and every flight was really a pleasure.

Some people......?
 
AirframeAS
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:13 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 208):
Plus we know BB is no fan of the Q400.

So what. BB is not really in the picture too much anymore. He is not the CEO of Frontier anymore. Siegel is, in case you forgot. So what BB thinks is moot.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 204):
I think we both sent suggestions to the top about the need to let the cookie go.

We both did, yes.

Quoting illinoisman (Reply 211):
YX was ruined from a passenger's point of view when it was purchased by F9/RW.

That is more of an opinion. YX ruined itself. F9 nor Republic contributed to that any further. It was a dying brand and you know it. If Midwest was the surviving name, the airline would have been dead over a year ago. FACT.

Quoting illinoisman (Reply 211):
The attitude of the people here changed and I had 3 consecutive bad experiences including a flight cancellation.

We get it already. You have time and time again have repeated this more times than I can count. We get it. You are more than welcome to go fly AA. We don't care.

Quoting illinoisman (Reply 211):
Time to send F9 to the abyss.

You should really quit flying F9 if you hate the airline so much. Repeating your rants here at A.net does not solve a damn thing. Go complain to Customer Relations. That is all you can do.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
PlaneAdmirer
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting illinoisman (Reply 211):
YX was ruined from a passenger's point of view when it was purchased by F9/RW.

I am sure from RAH's point of view they wish they had let it be liquidated instead of giving it a go, but that's hindsight.

Quoting illinoisman (Reply 211):
The attitude of the people here changed and I had 3 consecutive bad experiences including a flight cancellation.

I am sorry to read that and take you at your word. My flights with them have been consistently good, before, during, and after bankruptcy and I hope there are many more.

Quoting illinoisman (Reply 211):
Time to send F9 to the abyss.

So you have three bad flights and MKE is no longer a hub after RAH lost who knows how much there trying to keep it as one during a nasty recession, and the whole airline and company should be shut down? That's a not a reasonable nor rational view.

[Edited 2012-04-03 14:25:52]
 
mikefrommke
Posts: 223
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:32 am

RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 215):
So what. BB is not really in the picture too much anymore. He is not the CEO of Frontier anymore. Siegel is, in case you forgot. So what BB thinks is moot.

Actually when it comes to the Q400's, BB is still the CEO of RW/YX who operate the Q's prorate now. If he didn't want the Q's flying this summer he could ground them.

Back to the original point though, BB is a fan of making money. If United gave them a good contract to fly 30 Q400s, I'm sure he would be more than happy to take the offer and increase his CPA flying.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:25 pm

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 212):
Really? Then someone might have to explain to me how YX managed to stay afloat for over 25 years.

There are a number of reasons for that.

Here's one - in the latter days of Midwest, MCI was the only way that MKE pax could reach LAX - the E170's couldn't do the distance MKE-LAX. So MCI was inflated by MKE pax. DEN has taken over some of that role.

But given the losses at Midwest in the latter days, there is no indication that MCI was profitable and we know that the E170 is economically dreary for branded ops with oil at these prices.

Oil at $50 a barrel? Maybe a different story. But oil isn't at $50 a barrel.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
AirframeAS
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:57 pm

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 217):
Actually when it comes to the Q400's, BB is still the CEO of RW/YX who operate the Q's prorate now.

Oh, yeah... I forgot about that!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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mke717spotter
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 218):

What? This has nothing to due with my argument against the assertion that the YX network never had any value.
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 212):
For the record, F9 is at best a tourist airline and almost completely devoid of business travelers

I counted twenty seven o/w fare awards for federal government biz travel to/from DEN I think that's fairly significant. For comparison I counted fifty four for AS at SEA. Many of those to small/rural Alaska. F9 still shows six awards from MKE and less than a handful from MCI.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
Metrojet732
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:14 am

For the longest time, Midwest the only player in town. So, that could not of hurt. But I have always though the real begging of the end was when Midwest wasn’t able to buy the ER4’s for Skyway when the wanted to replace the D38’s and went with the much cheaper Skywest for their regional flying. Or when they needed to add their saver service to stay completive at cities like MCO, TPA and so one. I have also wondered what effect NWA’s so called focus city in MKE had on YV? Personally I never could understand why they chose the 717 when they knew they would still need the mad dogs still around. I would think a mix of 700/800s would have been great for them. I’m guessing Boeing gave then a great day on the 717 and the probably owned the MD80s?? Please tell me where I’m wrong and what I’m missing!!
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:19 am

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 220):
What? This has nothing to due with my argument against the assertion that the YX network never had any value.

Ah, sorry, I thought I was responding to your comment about "network" - why, for example, MCI-LAX became less viable.

I guess I missed your meaning.

Certainly the Midwest network had value. But that value changed and, in a number of cases, diminished.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
FRNT787
Posts: 377
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:24 am

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 217):
Actually when it comes to the Q400's, BB is still the CEO of RW/YX who operate the Q's prorate now. If he didn't want the Q's flying this summer he could ground them.

Back to the original point though, BB is a fan of making money. If United gave them a good contract to fly 30 Q400s, I'm sure he would be more than happy to take the offer and increase his CPA flying.

Exactly right. He would have Cessna 172s in his fleet if it was profitable. I think alot of the "BB hates turbo-props" comes from the fact he took over Chautauqua and converted it to a jet airline. At the time, the E145 was the future.
 
acjflyer
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:32 am

I have done a search and can't find the answer to the question of whether F9 has a scope clause written into their pilots contract. Any searches bring up the Legacies having clauses restricting Republics flying for them.

Can anyone take a quick second to let me know if Frontier has their own scope clause written into their pilots contract and if so what the seat restriction is?

I apologize if it has already been stated but the search wasn't bringing it up for me.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:34 pm

I'm not a big drinker anymore, but here's a fun one. Vote for a Colorado craft beer for Frontier to serve on board:

http://blogs.westword.com/cafesociet.../frontier_airlines_asks_flyers.php

"Frontier Airlines asks flyers to choose which Colorado beer to serve on board"

The article has a link to the Facebook page for anyone who wants to vote.

I think it's a pretty good idea. If it is going to be the Colorado airline, embrace that as much as possible.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9855
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:14 am

Quoting ACJFLYER (Reply 225):
I have done a search and can't find the answer to the question of whether F9 has a scope clause written into their pilots contract.

I don't think anyone knows. It is anybody's guess. Now that FAPA is pretty much not the representing party, they have been converted over to Teamsters. However, the F9 pilots are all still wearing the FAPA lanyards. There seems to be still some sort of tug o war between FAPA and Teamsters.....

Quoting mariner (Reply 226):
"Frontier Airlines asks flyers to choose which Colorado beer to serve on board"

I wished they got rid of Coors. Coors doesn't taste very good at all.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
rampart
Posts: 1800
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:35 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 227):
I wished they got rid of Coors. Coors doesn't taste very good at all.

I continue to be amazed how non-Coloradans still like Coors. Did you know that before Coors was a national brand, it was often the top selling item at airport gift shops at DEN and COS? People could take a sixpack home with them, as a carry-on, for a gift or themselves. Rocky Mountain spring water banquet beer!  

I can tolerate Coors if it's really cold and I'm camping, and there it has a lot of nostalgia associated with that act. Other than that, forget it.

-Rampart
 
bjorn14
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:48 pm

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 206):
SJD-DEN 12:30am-3:33pm Wed, Sat A319

I assume you man 12:30p.m.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 215):
So what BB thinks is moot.

BB is still Chmn of RAH and that makes him Siegel's boss. So his opinion does matter.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
sideflare75
Posts: 417
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:29 pm

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 197):
Lastly keep in mind that when Midwest filed for BK, Republic bought them and tried to make it work.

Midwest never filed for bankruptcy.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 190):
Quoting illinoisman (Reply 184):Well we still see planes at MKE dressed up in the YX livery. Only two 190's are in the Midwest colors: 171HQ and 165HQ.

There are actually 3 190's in Midwest colors still.(168HQ) And you can throw in the 1 170 that is still flying as a spare somedays. The last 135 in that paint job is in the MKE hgr waiting to go to SDF to leave the fleet.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 198):
Also, are the 3 remaining ERJs in F9 colors?

Yes they are but we also have a generic spare hanging around just in case.
 
FRNT787
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 229):
I assume you man 12:30p.m.

Indeed I did. Cannot edit the original post anymore.
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 226):
"Frontier Airlines asks flyers to choose which Colorado beer to serve on board"

A wish list of mine would be for F9 to serve http://www.alaskanbeer.com/our-brew/year-round-beers.html

The Alaska brewery located in Juneau and available in most western states including Colorado. If memory serves me the Alaska brewery has received several accolades and blue ribbons in a Colorado brew contest(s) To start they might offer it on the ANC and FAI runs.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
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enilria
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:10 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 209):
I see the rampant oil market as a cancer feeding on the very thing it needs to live and eventually destroying that host - short term greed trumping long term fear.

One of those occasions where we agree 100%.

Quoting mariner (Reply 213):
Sorry, F9. I had an issue with the way SM left Frontier/Republic (and I copped flak for saying that here), but I have considerably sympathy for him in this present situation.

He didn't create the mess at Pinnacle, he's the one cleaning it up.

I also have sympathy for him at PNCL because I am fairly sure he was angered to discover how bad things were there. It is fair to say that SM does not do much to make himself a sympathetic figure, however.

Much like how SM couldn't get along with BB controlling F9, I doubt SM will get along with DL controlling PNCL. He thought he had his own train set again, but once again he is a cog in a larger wheel. As the DIP provider, DL is now SM's boss. I predict DL inserts a stooge into SM's job with some haste. I'd be shocked if he stays.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 215):
Quoting enilria (Reply 208):
Plus we know BB is no fan of the Q400.

So what. BB is not really in the picture too much anymore. He is not the CEO of Frontier anymore. Siegel is, in case you forgot. So what BB thinks is moot.
Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 217):
Actually when it comes to the Q400's, BB is still the CEO of RW/YX who operate the Q's prorate now. If he didn't want the Q's flying this summer he could ground them.

Thanks for the defense.   Yes, Lynx was separated from F9 once it was acquired by RJET and Lynx completely disappeared a while back with the Q400s going on to Republic's operation. Siegel is essentially the CEO of the Airbus operation only, because the E190 operation will be going prorate and will be run at the pleasure and risk of BB...as well as the Q400s and E145s that keep getting stuck to F9's foot like a piece of well-chewed gum.

I'm not sure if I have posted this before, but I think putting the E190s on prorate is a real game-changer for F9. It is unlikely they make money and if the prorate is structured at industry standard terms (we can hope) it could remove a major stone from around F9's neck and dump it on RJET. It could result in F9 being profitable enough to be sold. OTOH, if BB simply signs a long-term prorate agreement where the E190s get an unusually high share of the revenue on connecting tickets or don't pay for F9 services or get to pick/choose routes that mainline really should be on --- then it is completely different. I think how this plays out is huge...
 
mikefrommke
Posts: 223
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 233):

I'm not sure if I have posted this before, but I think putting the E190s on prorate is a real game-changer for F9. It is unlikely they make money and if the prorate is structured at industry standard terms (we can hope) it could remove a major stone from around F9's neck and dump it on RJET. It could result in F9 being profitable enough to be sold. OTOH, if BB simply signs a long-term prorate agreement where the E190s get an unusually high share of the revenue on connecting tickets or don't pay for F9 services or get to pick/choose routes that mainline really should be on --- then it is completely different. I think how this plays out is huge...

I think at this point the idea is to make F9 look as good as possible (hence changing to prorate in the first place) as far as earnings go so I bet its set up fairly heavily to the F9 side. If they get a good investment for F9 then its good for RJET in the long term, so he's willing to take a hit on the small planes for the long term gain. I would also think that all of those planes only fly as long as they cover their costs or until they can go into CPA somewhere else.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting sideflare75 (Reply 230):
And you can throw in the 1 170 that is still flying as a spare somedays.

But there are no 170's flying for F9 anymore, so that does not count. They went to DL.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:05 pm

The Cranky Flier (Brett Snyder) gives a few cheers to Frontier for the unbundled fares, and sees a development towards what is - in effect - a three class cabin:

http://crankyflier.com/2012/04/05/fr...ree-cabin-airline-with-no-cookies/

"... Frontier has quietly been moving toward a very different kind of three cabin operation. I don’t imagine anyone is actually thinking of these distinctions as separate cabins right now, but that’s kind of how it’s playing out. And I imagine we’ll see a lot more of this type of thing around the industry."

The remaining problem with it is, as he says, non-Frontier website booking and the GDS:

"Once that hurdle is gone, bundling will become easier for more airlines to roll out broadly beyond their own websites. But that shouldn’t stop them from offering this kind of thing now. I hope we see more of what Frontier is doing here."

It's a good read, a couple of the comments on it less so. One sees it as "a nightmare for the f/a's" because some pax are getting goodies and others are not.

This came up in another thread and I think some folk are over-protective of the f/a's and overly dismissive of the mentality of pax.

I recently flew Virgin Australia - in basic Y, it was only MEL-SYD - and some Y pax were given trays of a hot meal - free - before anyone else was served. The rest of us had to buy anything we wanted and the reason for it was very simple - the pax who got the treats were connecting from international flights. Everyone on the place seemed to understand and no one else took it amiss.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
sideflare75
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 2:30 pm

RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 235):
But there are no 170's flying for F9 anymore, so that does not count. They went to DL.

Not all of them. Like I said it only flies as a spare when needed but is still used a few times a week. You just don't see it in DEN.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:12 pm

There is a small war going on between Frontier and Southwest over the DCA slots - both within and without perimeter - and it all began with the award of MDW-CUN to Airtran.

Frontier made a filing saying it would not object to the award of MDW-CUN to Airtran, but expressing (among other things) disappointment. It's not overly gracious, but enough, and it does concede the issue.. It also makes a couple of digs at Southwest's attitude to Frontier over the various proceedings:

OST-2012-0001-0013" target="_blank">http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2012-0001-0013

"In this and other limited-authority proceedings, Southwest/AirTran has adopted the mantle of the large legacy airlines, arguing that bigger is better. Southwest/AirTran has indeed become a behemoth legacy airline with all of the attributes of that group, including market dominance and ever increasing average fares. In fact, Southwest proudly boasts that it is now the largest U.S. airline in terms of passengers. But larger isn’t always better."

End of story? No.

(nb: From here on Im using airline info as the source, because some of the docket files are enormous. Airlineinfo.com does the grunt work - you have to register, but it is free)

Airtran responded, objecting to Frontier's acceptance of the DOT decision and taking great umbrage with Frontier's position, which it suggests (perhaps with some justification) has more to do with the DCA slot issues:

http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostpdf84/40.pdf

"Normally, a statement by the losing party in a contested route proceeding that it does not object to the Department’s selection of the other party would end the matter, with no need for response. However, in this instance, Frontier took the extraordinary step of using its supposed “non-objection” as a platform for gratuitous criticism of AirTran/Southwest as well as mischaracterization of the Department’s decision. Not only do these statements come with poor grace from the losing party, they have no basis in fact and should be disregarded."

End of story? No.

The DCA slot proceedings roll on and Southwest has made a filing taking issue with JetBlue once and Frontier twice:

http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostpdf84/52.pdf

"Frontier, and to a lesser extent some other applicants, have attempted to discredit Southwest’s DCA-AUS-SAN proposal by claiming that BWI airport, along with DCA, is part of a combined “WAS” market that should be used to evaluate applicants’ proposals in this case (see Frontier’s Consolidated Answer at 13-14 and Exhibit F9-A- 1). This, Frontier hopes, would make Southwest an incumbent in its own proposed market. Frontier raised a virtually identical argument in the pending Department proceeding for allocation of inside perimeter slot exemptions (Docket DOS-OST-2000- 7182), to which Southwest responded in detail in its Consolidated Reply filed on March 29, 2012. "

End of story? No.

Frontier has come back on that one, calling Southwest's an unauthorized filing:

http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostpdf84/70.pdf

"The Department “establish[ed] an expedited schedule for the application process”, which did not provide for any reply comments because Congress mandated a decision within 90 days of enactment of the FAA Act of 2012. Despite that clear directive, which Frontier respects, Southwest has filed an unauthorized “Limited Response” with a motion for leave to file. If the Department grants Southwest’s motion and accepts Southwest’s unauthorized filing, Frontier hereby requests leave to file this brief response to address the three points aimed at Frontier.

Southwest again argues that the Department should disregard Southwest’s huge presence in the Washington D.C. region, including the fact that it dominates nearby BWI with over 72% of all domestic enplanements.

Second, notwithstanding what it self-servingly proclaims to the Department here, Southwest tells its own customers a far different story about DCA/BWI/IAD, i.e., that DCA, BWI and IAD are reasonable alternatives for service to Washington, D.C. For example, the Southwest Route Map on its website emphasizes (in red and bold):

“These cities on the route map serve as alternative airport locations to the following destinations:
...  Washington, D.C. via Baltimore/Washington (BWI).” 

Moreover, when a passenger books a flight on www.southwest.com and types in “Wash” as the departure point, Southwest presents the following choices:

Washington (Reagan National), DC - DCA
Washington DC Area Airports -----------------
Washington (Dulles),DC – IAD Baltimore/Washington, MDBWI


There's a lot more in the same vein and I love all this stuff. It's a lot of sound and fury on both sides, although, like MacBeth, I'm not sure that it signifies very much. I think Frontier is right to make its case - and I'm pleased to see it battling - and Southwest will always respond aggressively - but I don't know how much any of this sways the DOT.

In my ideal world, the DOT would award the within perimeter slots to US to continue service to JAN. However, I think it is possible that won't happen and Southwest will get 'em for OKC, if only because (a) OKC than JAN is bigger and has no DCA service and (b) Southwest is really bringing in the big guns.

I've already said that I think Frontier's chances of COS-DCA are probably fifty-fifty, and while I hope it happens, I am not holding my breath.

But again - and at the risk of throwing a spanner in the works - if Frontier doesn't get COS-DCA, then as a very much secondary choice, it has made an almost impeccable case for COS-BWI.  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 238):

According to my airport distance calculator DCA-BWI is 30 statute miles. Traffic and the time it takes to travel between the two airports would be a separate argument. For the sake of curiosity I checked EWR, JFK and LGA which align under the NYC moniker. Keeping in mind EWR is located in New Jersey and still populates as a New York City airport. LGA-EWR was 16 statute miles. JFK-EWR is 20 statute miles and JFK-EWR is 10 statute miles.

In the many years I spent around government the feds have recognized 50 miles as a qualified/reasonable commuting area. In fact the 50 mile figure is recognized for many entitlement programs. This might explain why ISP does not populate as a greater NYC airport, it's outside the 50 mile radius.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:29 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 239):
JFK-EWR is 20 statute miles and JFK-EWR is 10 statute miles.

Correction. My last JFK-EWR above should have stated JFK-LGA which is 10 statute miles.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 238):
The DCA slot proceedings roll on and Southwest has made a filing taking issue with JetBlue once and Frontier twice

Now JetBlue has come back with a response to what it calls "Southwest's unauthorized filing." It only peripherally affects Frontier (if at all) but some of it is quite funny, so here are some snippets:

http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostpdf84/80.pdf

"After the close of the pleading cycle in this proceeding, Southwest Airlines Co ("Southwest") has unfortunately filed a Limited Response and Motion for Leave to File (the "Limited Response") requiring other carriers to respond.

When JetBlue analyzed the difference between its own estimate of traffic stimulation and Southwest's estimate, the Southwest estimate was so high it was not credible.

If Southwest were to stimulate their claimed 91,806 annual passengers that would be the equivalent of 144% load factor (91,806 passengers/63.675 seats = 144%). Taking into account the 54,276 passengers Southwest alleges it will stimulate in the DCA-SAN market, it would be the equivalent of a 229% load factor ((54,276+91,806)/63,675 seats)."


There's a bit more in the same vein, of course, but it isn't a long filing and I'm sure the Numbers Wallahs will sort it all out.

But who knows what the DOT will make of it?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
smoot4208
Posts: 595
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:56 pm

So with F9 becoming more of an ULCC, and with them trying to focusing on diversifying away from just DEN, would select destinations from LAS work ok? Considering it would just be red-eye flights, so only having variable costs, would LAS-BMI/DAY/CAK/MSN work? They are all routes in my opinion that could work 3 days/week.
 
rampart
Posts: 1800
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:50 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 226):
Vote for a Colorado craft beer for Frontier to serve on board:

http://blogs.westword.com/cafesociet.../frontier_airlines_asks_flyers.php

"Frontier Airlines asks flyers to choose which Colorado beer to serve on board"

I wonder what the response will be if voters pick Wynkoop Brewery, the brewpub Hickenlooper established before becoming (WN-friendly) mayor of Denver (and now governor)?

-Rampart
 
mikefrommke
Posts: 223
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RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:51 am

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 242):
So with F9 becoming more of an ULCC, and with them trying to focusing on diversifying away from just DEN, would select destinations from LAS work ok? Considering it would just be red-eye flights, so only having variable costs, would LAS-BMI/DAY/CAK/MSN work? They are all routes in my opinion that could work 3 days/week.

I'd like to see them try, but given they couldn't make MKE-LAS work with the redeye, and they supposedly have a FF base (dwindling) here, I don't know if those midwest cities would be high on their list. But that being said, if they can find a way to make money on them (sell more packages?) in the future I don't think they wouldn't try.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 189):
That is all.
Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 244):
I'd like to see them try, but given they couldn't make MKE-LAS work with the redeye, and they supposedly have a FF base (dwindling) here, I don't know if those midwest cities would be high on their list. But that being said, if they can find a way to make money on them (sell more packages?) in the future I don't think they wouldn't try.

Perhaps it's time for Allegiant to step up to the plate and take on F9? Some of their markets might be well-suited to F9's route structure and they could sell packages over them. Conversely, some Allegiant markets might lend themselves more to F9's operating practices, such as perhaps BLI routes where multiple daily flights exist. If nothing else, they could share airport costs/infrastructure/human resources to reduce costs and enable them to operate into more locations profitably.

There may be not a wisp of common sense in that - ok, perhaps "may be" is too strong of a phrase   - but I have a vision of an ULCC scheduled, hub and spoke carrier aligned with Allegiant as a point-to-point ULCC carrier, and it just keeps resonating in my mind. It would solve the Boeing vs Airbus quandry for Allegiant's future, as (assuming RAH has no need for the NEO's) F9 could take the NEO's and roll over the "CEO's" to Allegiant - or just pick up used 320's on the market as NEO's filter in.

Well, enough about my bright ideas.....  

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):
The frog rules!
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 11):

The select the next critter tail has been narrowed to three finalist. A tree frog, (Enrique) a Chipmunk (Chloe) and the Parrot (Polly). http://www.frontierairlines.com/anim...urfavorite_sc&utm_campaign=animals Voting ends 4/15
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 245):
Perhaps it's time for Allegiant to step up to the plate and take on F9?

To be clear, I meant "merge" or "come together under one holding company", not battle.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 246):
The select the next critter tail has been narrowed to three finalist. A tree frog, (Enrique) a Chipmunk (Chloe) and the Parrot (Polly).

I voted for Enrique. I like frogs.  

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 247):
I voted for Enrique. I like frogs.

With all of the expansion into Mexico and Central America over the years and now Hispaniola (Dominican Republic) for the Apple contract. Enrique is a great name. I wish the moniker was assigned to something other than a frog.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: New Frontier/Republic #34

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 248):
I wish the moniker was assigned to something other than a frog.

Well, I still have a baby tooth at age 45 (don't judge me) so the chipmunk was out. And I'm married so the last thing I need is someone rattling on all afternoon, so Polly is out.   That left the frog....

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
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