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SASMD82
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Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:37 pm

Today I drove along the 'Hoofdvaart' canal and I saw a lot of KLM Fokker 70s passing by. I was wondering what would be the most adequate replacement of those birds. I do not expect the Fokker 70NG replacing these birds as I expect the NG series to be a failure (because of the competition with Embraer, Bombardier, Sukhoi, Mitsubishi etc.). I hear a lot of people speaking about the ERJ 170 (or more likely: 175) and KLM did not rule out a turboprop aircraft.

As most Fokker 70 flights do not take longer than 1 hour and 30 minutes, I think the ATR72NG to be the most ideal replacement. It has the lowest CASM of current planes of about 70 seats in the market, it has the lowest fuel burn of any 70 seat plane in the market, it is a state-of-the-art aircraft, easy to turn around in around 25 minutes and - thanks to Airbus technology - it will not be very difficult to maintain. Only disadvantage: it is a turboprop and it is slow.

What about your thoughts?

Look forward to hearing from you! Cheers!
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:40 pm

I seem to remember seeing the MRJ and E-170 mentioned as likely contenders, but I'm not sure if that was the 'official' shortlist or just speculation.


Dan  
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SuperCaravelle
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:42 pm

Rumors are the Fokker 70 will be in service for at least 5 more years, in which a lot can and will change. Incidentally, the retirement date given coincides with the date given by Embraer for their E-jets new version.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a mix of smaller jets (MRJ wasn't ruled out either) and turboprops. On some routes, especially the channel hops, a slow turboprop makes a lot of sense, but on many others it doesn't.
 
lijnden
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:16 pm

They are waiting for the Rekkof to enter the market...   
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EPA001
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting lijnden (Reply 3):

They are waiting for the Rekkof to enter the market...  

it has been very quiet regarding the Rekkof project. Too quiet if you would ask me. I think the Rekkof project might not make it. Which would leave KLM with one option less to select a successor for the F70. A plane which I still like to fly with as a passenger on a weekly basis.  
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:39 am

Remote/NG has been negotiating for parts. So let's give them a little more benefit of the doubt.

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SASMD82
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:03 am

The NG70 and NG100 should have a spectacular CASM, range, comfort and fuel burn, otherwise I am not too keen that these planes will be a success (hence the competition with Embraer, Bombardier, Mitsubishi, Sukhoi etc.).
 
vfw614
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:05 am

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 2):
Rumors are the Fokker 70 will be in service for at least 5 more years, in which a lot can and will change. Incidentally, the retirement date given coincides with the date given by Embraer for their E-jets new version.

Well, if they will be replaced in 5 years time, that pretty much defines the replacement - nothing that does not exist today at least as a half-assembled protoype will be available in five years time. So it makes perfect sense to discuss the options today.

The question really is about what size of aircraft we are talking. KLM has matured from the Fokker 50 to the Fokker 70, like Lufhansa has replaced its 50 seaters with 70 seaters and now 90/100 seaters. So I guess the Fokker 70 will be replaced by something larger, and the Embraer 190 then is the logical choice. If some routes do not justify a plane of that size, I suppose they will go or served by the larger aircraft anyway (Lufthansa is perfectly happy to operate their 90seaters on routes on which demand does not require them).
 
r2rho
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:12 am

The E170/5 is the obvious candidate given the fleet commonality it provides, and if Embraer offers the reengined version in time, it's a no brainer.

But the ATR is an interesting candidate too, KL doesn't operate any F50's anymore and has no equivalent. Would a prop yield any operational advantages at AMS, in terms of better rwy use? I would not expect the F70's to be all replaced by ATR's, but a combined order E17x & AT7's could be a possibility.

It will be sad when the Fokkers go, I've always liked them...
 
MH017
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:09 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 1):
I seem to remember seeing the MRJ and E-170 mentioned as likely contenders

That statement was made by someone in KLM's procurement dept.via "Luchtvaartnieuws"

The fact that KLM postponed the F70 replacement is nothing 'similar' is on the market now...

Forget about the Q400 or ATR72; if that would be the replacement aircraft, they would have been ordered long ago !
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
vfw614
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:19 pm

What makes you think that KLM will replace the Fokker 70s with a 70 seater? The trend around the world is that hub airlines who are not strangled by scope clauses replace 70-seaters with larger aircraft when they move on to the next replacement cycle.

See, for example, in Europe Air France (ER4/CR2/CR7 > CRK/E90), Lufthansa (CR2/CR7 > CR9/E90), SAS (DH4 > CR9), Swiss (AR1 > CS), Alitalia (E70 > E90)
 
Starglider
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:24 pm

With fuel prices continuing to increase a (fast) turboprop replacement could become more likely.

To quote an article in the link below:

"Flying between Los Angeles and San Francisco a 50-seat regional jet consumes 925 gallons of fuel and a 140-seat narrow body (think Southwest Airlines) uses 1,083 gallons. A 72-seat turboprops burns only 297 gallons."

http://its.berkeley.edu/btl/2011/winter/turboprop

Many such distances are flown by the Fo70 but i can imagine that a replacement aircraft would most likely require similar cabin space (fuselage diameter) which the Q400 and ATR 72 do not meet.

An aircraft with the size and speed of the Lockheed L-188 Electra would be closer to the specs.

Why not revamp the L-188 design and put it on the market?


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solarflyer22
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 11):

With fuel prices continuing to increase a (fast) turboprop replacement could become more likely.

To quote an article in the link below:

"Flying between Los Angeles and San Francisco a 50-seat regional jet consumes 925 gallons of fuel and a 140-seat narrow body (think Southwest Airlines) uses 1,083 gallons. A 72-seat turboprops burns only 297 gallons."

I think an 85 seat turbo prop would be a great addition if it can cut fuel by that much. For most central european routes thats enough speed and range. Many of the short runways in the alps would benefit from a turbo prop too.
 
kl911
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:47 pm

For the short hops to the UK and the western part of germany the ATR72 is the perfect aircraft. The lower cruisespeed on such short distances is hardly noticable.
 
krisyyz
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:26 pm

What is the shortest and longest scheduled flight for KL's F70s?

I personally think the Ejets are a good replacement for most Central European destinations, but what they seem to be "too much aircraft" for short hops.

KrisYYZ
 
vfw614
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:37 pm

YOu never have the ideal aircraft for each route. It is always a question of balancing pros and cons and checking what product the competition offers for its competing hub services. E.g,, if you are flying on BA or LH transiting via LHR or FRA, you will not be on a turboprop, although both airlines have routes where a turboprop would make more sense.
 
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Thread starter):
Only disadvantage: it is a turboprop and it is slow.

I haven't flown on the NG, but the older version was also extremely noisy. That's a good reason right there for pax to avoid turbo props regardless of how safe they are.
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting MH017 (Reply 9):
That statement was made by someone in KLM's procurement dept.via "Luchtvaartnieuws"

Thanks, I didn't think I was imagining it.

Quoting MH017 (Reply 9):
Forget about the Q400 or ATR72; if that would be the replacement aircraft, they would have been ordered long ago !

That did cross my mind, they are great short range aircraft but go above a few hundred nautical miles and the E-Jets become more efficient. I also wonder if there is any significance that Mitsubishi chose to base their European office at the WTC in AMS.


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Joost
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 14):

What is the shortest and longest scheduled flight for KL's F70s?

Shortest is AMS-BRU at 157km or 57mi. It sees a 5x daily F70, schedule time 0:45.

Other short routes include:
AMS-DUS: 178km / 110mi. 4x F70, 1x E90, 0:50.
AMS-CGN: 229km / 142mi. 3x F70, 0:55
AMS-NWI: 239km / 148mi. 3x F70, 0:50
AMS-BRE: 283km / 175mi. 4x F70, 0:55
AMS-LUX: 314km / 195mi. 3x F70, 1:00

Other routes below 500km include HAM, HAJ, FRA, BLL, BHX, MAN, LBA, MME, HUY and LHR. (Yes, KL sends F70s to LHR, although they look much like slot warmers).

The longest route is AMS-TRD, at 1290km / 801mi, at 2:20 flight time. It's F70 during winter, E90 during summer. A few years ago, the longest routes where AMS-TLL and AMS-RIX.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 12):
Many of the short runways in the alps would benefit from a turbo prop too.

The only short-runway airport in the Alps I can think of, is Bern. But at 1730 meter, it's still isn't a problem for a F70 or E70. (it's longer than LCY). Bern isn't served by KL. The airport served by KL (ZRH, BSL, GVA, VIE) all have plenty of runway.
 
bennett123
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:17 pm

Are you sure that 157km = 57miles?.
 
Joost
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 19):
Are you sure that 157km = 57miles?.

Rather 97mi  
(must have been a typo)
 
cargolex
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 11):

Why not revamp the L-188 design and put it on the market?

Fuel consumption in a quad-prop would be much worse, for one thing. For another, it's a 50+ year old airframe.

The Dash-7's lack of success and the ubiquity of the Dash-8 and ATR more or less killed any chances of light commercial quad props. I strongly suspect that the only quad props we'll see in the 21st century are military aircraft where mission demands are more important than economy and easy of maintenance.

If you want to match the economy of an ATR or Dash-8, you'll have to do it with two engines, not four.
 
LJ
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:52 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 10):
What makes you think that KLM will replace the Fokker 70s with a 70 seater? The trend around the world is that hub airlines who are not strangled by scope clauses replace 70-seaters with larger aircraft when they move on to the next replacement cycle.

Because the markets the F70 serves can't absorb more capacity. I doubt KL can fill a 4 daily or 3 daily E90 to BRE or CGN. They need something smaller than the E90
 
JRadier
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting MH017 (Reply 9):
Forget about the Q400 or ATR72; if that would be the replacement aircraft, they would have been ordered long ago !

The only thing in that regard I can think of, wasn't Bombardier rumoured to be looking at a streched Q400?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:49 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 22):
I doubt KL can fill a 4 daily or 3 daily E90 to BRE or CGN. They need something smaller than the E90

But the E75 would be a better fit. For some of the routes are ready for that minor growth.

This is a very competitive segment. What time frame is KL looking to replace the F70s?

KLM needs to take action to turn its results around. Short haul is 'bleeding' 700 to 800 million Euros per year for AF-KLM.
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Ty134A
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:25 am

I also see the future in large Turboprops, or at leas duced fan type Engins, with lots of noise and vibration. The reason will be the ticket price. And a 2 engine turboprop beats anything jetlike in any case, be it long or short haul. By looking into soviet aviation, one will find that the Il-18 and the Tu-114 are very capable planes in terms of fuel consumption, taken under consideration their age and era of development. The reason especially the Tu-114 got phased out was the extreme noise in the cabin (louder than the Tu-144). So again the Il6 war partly creature comfort driven.

If you look at todays times, I think for a certain share of the Market, earplugs and 50% less on tickets mean a higjer creature comfort than a silent jet at twice the cost.

Just imagime a ciunter rotating engine on a plan driving it to around 800km/h using far less fuel than a jet. How far wod you go???   MOL- don'tread that 
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Starglider
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:39 am

Fuel consumption in a quad-prop would be much worse, for one thing. For another, it's a 50+ year old airframe.

If you want to match the economy of an ATR or Dash-8, you'll have to do it with two engines, not four.


Who said anything about a quad? A revamp of the L-188 design does not mean a re-enginening and systems upgrade. A revamp could certainly include a twin engined design with the current state of turboprop technology and improved wing design.

Even if it retained a quad confuguration (which would be required to retain the L-188 wing concept) the fuel consumption as a quad with current state of the art technology would be considerably less than with the Allison 501D's on the current L-188 when compared to the Tay-620 powered Fo70. Even more so when compared with a CFM56 powered 737-700. The flight time difference for stretches up to a 1000 miles would be a non issue for a turboprop with the speed of the L-188 when compared with the Fo70 or the 737NG.


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r2rho
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:10 am

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 10):
What makes you think that KLM will replace the Fokker 70s with a 70 seater? The trend around the world is that hub airlines who are not strangled by scope clauses replace 70-seaters with larger aircraft when they move on to the next replacement cycle.

Good point. They could just go all-E190. Will depend on the fuel prices and the competitive situation.

Quoting LJ (Reply 22):
Because the markets the F70 serves can't absorb more capacity. I doubt KL can fill a 4 daily or 3 daily E90 to BRE or CGN.

Yes, but... 100$/barrel killed the 50-seat RJ. And 150$/barrel may kill the 70-seat RJ. So it will depend on fuel prices. If oil is consistently at 150$+, destinations like that will have to reduce frequency with larger a/c and/or shift to props.

Quoting Starglider (Reply 11):
With fuel prices continuing to increase a (fast) turboprop replacement could become more likely.
Quoting Ty134A (Reply 25):
I also see the future in large Turboprops

Let's see if ATR finally announces their long-rumored new 90-seater this year. It's basically all down to GE/PW offering a competitive engine.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
What time frame is KL looking to replace the F70s?

I seem to remember 2016ish? Someone correct me if I'm wrong!
 
SuperCaravelle
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:27 am

Cabin noise is not really an issue with modern turboprops. I cannot comment on the Q400 as I've yet to fly it, but I didn't notice a unusually loud noise in the ATR turboprops. Different yes, but not louder. And even if noise is an issue, it can be fixed with some noise reduction measures. The fuel burn difference as stated earlier in this topic surprised me and is big enough to consider this options.
 
MH017
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 10):
airlines who are not strangled by scope clauses

Exactly the case for KLC; it cannot replace 26-80 seaters with 26-100 seaters due to union clause for cockpit-crew
  
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
vfw614
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:54 pm

How solid is their legal position? The same was true, for example when Lufthansa introduced the Avro RJ85 in the 1990s and more recently the Embraer 190. Lufthansa simply had those aircraft operated by another airline / under another brand until the unions gave in since they simply had no long-term leverage. For example, KLM could replace KLC flights with flights operated by Cityjet or Régional - or does the scople clause guarantee that KLC will operate a certain number of aircraft forever?


As for the turboprop issue, nobody doubts that a turboprop would make a lot of sense for KLC (but also if we talk about, say, just half the number of the current Fokker 70s?). The point simply is that KLM competes in most markets with Star Alliance (that feeds FRA, MUC, ZRH, BRU) and oneworld (LHR, MAD). This means that a customer would always have the option to "go jet" on Star and oneworld or turboprop on KLM from his home airport. Outside a.net, the understanding that a turboprop is not less advanced, safe and comfortable than a small jet is somewhat limited, so the product the competition offers certainly has some influence.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:12 pm

As far as I know, KLM Cityhopper is not to replace their Fokker 70's for the coming 5 years. So, they still have time to decide.

They have also time to decide if they want to operate regional flights themselves. There used to be plans to combine all regional operations from Air France and KLM in one brand. Brand of choice would be CityJet, which has a low-cost structure for operational costs.

E-190 as smallest plane in the KLM mainline fleet, everything smaller operated by CityJet. Makes sense to me!

Cheers!   
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krisyyz
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:56 pm

Quoting joost (Reply 18):
Shortest is AMS-BRU at 157km or 57mi. It sees a 5x daily F70, schedule time 0:45.

Other short routes include:
AMS-DUS: 178km / 110mi. 4x F70, 1x E90, 0:50.
AMS-CGN: 229km / 142mi. 3x F70, 0:55
AMS-NWI: 239km / 148mi. 3x F70, 0:50
AMS-BRE: 283km / 175mi. 4x F70, 0:55
AMS-LUX: 314km / 195mi. 3x F70, 1:00

Other routes below 500km include HAM, HAJ, FRA, BLL, BHX, MAN, LBA, MME, HUY and LHR. (Yes, KL sends F70s to LHR, although they look much like slot warmers).

The longest route is AMS-TRD, at 1290km / 801mi, at 2:20 flight time. It's F70 during winter, E90 during summer. A few years ago, the longest routes where AMS-TLL and AMS-RIX.

Thanks for the info!

I guess the Q400 could even fly the longest F-70 flights.

KrisYYZ
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 32):
I guess the Q400 could even fly the longest F-70 flights.

It could, but in doing so I can't see it being more efficient than an E175 or even E170 on anything approaching 800 miles.


Dan  
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vfw614
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:26 pm

If I am not mistaken, the Embraer 170/175 has not been sold at significant numbers in the past couple of years - the notable expetion is Flybe, putting as many seats in the E175 as a full service carrier would put in an E190. The sale of the E-Jets nowadays is pretty much limited to E190/195s for obvious reasons.
 
Starglider
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 28):
Cabin noise is not really an issue with modern turboprops.

It was not an issue back in the 60's on the L-188 equipped with Allisons which was relatively quiet compared to those aircraft equipped with engine types such as the RR Darts or Tynes. Both inside and outside the cabine they were popular due to their low noise signatures. I personally remember because I lived below the the flight path departing/approaching Washington National (now known as Ronald Reagan) Airport when Eastern and others operated the L-188 there and later on below the flight path of Schiphol Amsterdam Int. Airport in the late 60's when KLM operated the L-188.

Those Allisons sounded like music to the ear compared to any other airliner, turboprop or jet.



Starglider.

[Edited 2012-03-18 09:40:55]
 
Starglider
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting MH017 (Reply 29):
Exactly the case for KLC; it cannot replace 26-80 seaters with 26-100 seaters due to union clause for cockpit-crew

With the current AF/KLM financial situation this may be an issue on the agenda to reconsider these clauses.

[Edited 2012-03-18 09:48:32]
 
LJ
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Quoting MH017 (Reply 29):
Exactly the case for KLC; it cannot replace 26-80 seaters with 26-100 seaters due to union clause for cockpit-crew

Why? KLC already flies the ERJ190 which seats 100 seats, thus why wouldn't they allow KLC to replace a F70 with an ERJ190? I don't see the logic (though I'm aware that there maybe isn't any)

BTW what are the trip costs of the F70 vs ERJ190?
 
SASMD82
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:22 am

Quoting MH017 (Reply 29):
xactly the case for KLC; it cannot replace 26-80 seaters with 26-100 seaters due to union clause for cockpit-crew

Are you sure? KLc operated the F70 along with th F100 fleet side by side. Pilots were certified to fly both types.
 
MH017
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:53 am

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 38):
KLc operated the F70 along with th F100 fleet side by side. Pilots were certified to fly both types

That worked while the E-190's were not delivered yet; once they arrived the F100's were reduced in numbers one on one (for the same reason: the total seats could not be increased)...

Just heard this morning, the F-70's will not be replaced before 2018 !!!   
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EPA001
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:55 am

Quoting MH017 (Reply 39):
Just heard this morning, the F-70's will not be replaced before 2018 !!!


Just flew with the F70 this morning from AMS to HAM. They still are very comfortable planes to fly with.  
 
SASMD82
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 40):
Quoting MH017 (Reply 39):
Just heard this morning, the F-70's will not be replaced before 2018 !!!


Just flew with the F70 this morning from AMS to HAM. They still are very comfortable planes to fly with.  

I totally agree with you. When the last MD-11 has left the fleet of KL I guess the Fokker 70 will be my favourite plane in the KL fleet.

MH017, have you got a source? This might imply that KL/AF would like to wait before Rekkof has start up their production facilities???
 
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frigatebird
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RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting MH017 (Reply 39):
Just heard this morning, the F-70's will not be replaced before 2018 !!!
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 41):
MH017, have you got a source? This might imply that KL/AF would like to wait before Rekkof has start up their production facilities???

To me it sounds more likely that they will wait for the E-Jets with NG engines....

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 34):
If I am not mistaken, the Embraer 170/175 has not been sold at significant numbers in the past couple of years - the notable expetion is Flybe, putting as many seats in the E175 as a full service carrier would put in an E190.

That might be the reason why Embraer only has plans for NG versions for E175 and E190/5. Personally, I think the E175NG is in a favourite position to land the F70 replacement at KL. Will be very interesting to see which engines the new engines will get....
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:36 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 41):
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 40):
Quoting MH017 (Reply 39):
Just heard this morning, the F-70's will not be replaced before 2018 !!!


Just flew with the F70 this morning from AMS to HAM. They still are very comfortable planes to fly with.

I totally agree with you. When the last MD-11 has left the fleet of KL I guess the Fokker 70 will be my favourite plane in the KL fleet.

Agree. The KL F70s (and remaining few F100s) have the most comfortable Y class seats in the entire KL fleet in my opinion. Will be sorry to see them go.
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:11 am

Quoting MH017 (Reply 29):
Quoting vfw614 (Reply 10):
airlines who are not strangled by scope clauses

Exactly the case for KLC; it cannot replace 26-80 seaters with 26-100 seaters due to union clause for cockpit-crew
Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 31):

E-190 as smallest plane in the KLM mainline fleet

Are you sure about this? The E190s have the cityhopper logo, I would imagine they are operated by Cityhopper crew? How was the setup when the F100s were around? Surely they didn't have different crews for F70 & F100?

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 31):
There used to be plans to combine all regional operations from Air France and KLM in one brand. Brand of choice would be CityJet, which has a low-cost structure for operational costs.

Could make sense. Although KL already has a streamlined mainline/regional operation, IMO it is more AF who has to optimize - they have AF Regional, CityJet, BritAir, all operating different a/c types...

Quoting MH017 (Reply 39):
Just heard this morning, the F-70's will not be replaced before 2018 !!!

That would be great news, another 7 years of F70 joy  And then it'll be just in time for the reengined Ejets and the 90-seat ATR.  
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 43):
The KL F70s (and remaining few F100s) have the most comfortable Y class seats in the entire KL fleet in my opinion.

Best Y class seating in Europe, if you ask me.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Fokker 70 Replacement For KLM

Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 2):
Rumors are the Fokker 70 will be in service for at least 5 more years, in which a lot can and will change.

And in 5 years the price of oil might be at $40/bbl according to Avitas' Adam Pilarski's ISTAT presentation ...

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...Demand%20Will%20Crash&channel=comm

If that were true...
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein

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