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woodsboy
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:32 am

If DL considered the C Series vs the 717, why on EARTH would they not choose the 717? Too many positives to list, not the least of which is the fire sale price of the 717 compared to a new C Series. That along would be enough to tip the scales even without the other obvious benefits such as comonality with the other MDs and the possibility of making the Saudi MD-90s all of a sudden attractive. The RJ100/200s will not be missed no matter replaces them, they are by far the worst traveling experience ever invented!
 
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yellowtail
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:08 am

are the 717s over water equipped...could they use them to sun destinations that they use CR9s for during the shoulder seasons..and maybe (re)open up some routes that were marginal on a CR9 because the market wanted mainline, like ATL-KIN?

I see the 712s ideal for retrying markets such as ATL-MID, and for short hops like ATL-CHA
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
BOACCunard
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:53 am

Quoting flyabr (Reply 139):
I can only imagine that if DL is interested in the 712...they'd go hog nutz for the 713 to replace the aging MD88s!

Well, only if someone (FL) had a lot of them that they wanted to get rid of. I don't think any variant of the 717 would have had any particular appeal for DL as new aircraft, just like DL did not find the M90 particularly compelling when new but wound up buying most of the world's M90s once they got really cheap.

On another note, I think it's interesting that everyone associates buying used aircraft with being something DL sort of "inherited" from NW. It is not as though DL did not do this on its own before. How many used L10s did DL buy?
Getting There is Half the Fun!
 
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mayor
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:08 am

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 152):
How many used L10s did DL buy?

Can't give you exact numbers, but they got some from UA/PA/AC and a couple from TW.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
SYfan100
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:23 am

Why didn't Richard Anderson buy the Boeing 717 when he was at Northwest? Why get it now?
It does remind many people about the DC-9 with how it looked in which granted things are different technology wise, but it really is the new generation DC-9 with how I look at it for seats and what it can do.
Boeing stopped making it because there were not enough plane orders in which I think it was a mistake on both ends in the overall end.
There is a demand for that type of aircraft but I think some Airlines have been slow to acknowlege it over the years?
Very good at moving in and out of small and large Airports on routes that would have that seating demand.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:30 am

I have no idea what the 717s high alititude performance is but Delta might still be interested in them or at least might discuss a proposed swap of some type if they could get a really good deal.

IIRC for airtran ATL-DEN was the range limit for the 717s. SLC-ATL would not be going out loaded nor would Delta want to. The summer schedule is gonna be 3x 767-300, 757-300, 757-200s and 737-800s. That plane is just too small Delta would schedule it with a stop somewhere like OKC if they needed to bridge them with 717s for some reason. This plane is to replace the MD-88s and DC9s probably so they would just go where they are now ATL and MSP mostly i would think for the 717s. Ironically alot of those 717s could remain in ATL if this goes thru and delta might just swap for those same gates. I would think Delta is gonna want a realy sweat deal for this to go thru but it really might be a win win if WN really wants to dump these so badly.

I do wonder as others said how WN would take such a massive hit in planes so they would have to get some 737s out of it i would think
 
TrijetsRMissed
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:34 am

Ah, the sweet sound of vindication.     

While often discredited on a.net, this acquisition has been in review for the past 18 months. If and when the deal with WN is finalized, I expect DL to take most, if not all of the 88 frames. It will not be a small sub-fleet of 25-30 frames... If that were the case, DL would have purchased the former MX birds some time ago.

With the recent secondhand purchases, DL will have positioned themselves nicely with a modest fleet renewal, therein improving efficiencies and reducing costs in the near-term. For the next decade, the domestic backbone will consist of 739ER, 738, MD-90 and 717. The 757 variants and MD-88 will soldier on as workhorses, though in diminishing numbers over time.

If the entire WN 717 fleet is acquired, one can foresee further investment in the Mad Dog sub-fleets, including flight-deck upgrades for the MD-88/90. Testing would commence with CVG based crews and complete "go-live" by the end of next year. Other possibilities may include ER upgrades for select MD-90 frames, the Super 98 PIP for the MD-90 fleet, or acquisition of the ex-SV fleet - although less likely; these frames have reportedly not aged as well as their ex-Asian counterparts. If the latter is taken up, or fleet sized pushed to 80+, expect the A320 phaseout to be further accelerated.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 93):
First I believe not only is Delta going to take all of the WN 717's, I think the Turkmenistan 71's are somehow also tied to this deal. These seven aircraft were very quietly withdrawn from service last month but yet are not available for sale or lease anywhere, Also, I'm having second thoughts about the SV MD-90's that have been sitting in the desert. I didn't think DL had any interest in them but it seems strange that these aircraft were for sale two years ago and suddenly were taken off the market about the same time DL started acquiring MD-90's. If DL was looking for a way to pull down the MD-88 fleet and keep capacity flat, these two deals would surely accomplish that. Also, rumor has it, is that DL is taking a second look at new Dashboards for the MD-90's. I also believe that ATL and DTW will be the most likely targets for 717 bases.

   I can tell, there are some truths in the above statement.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 127):
So while the up-front capital outlay for the new 738 is three times that of the MD-90, there's essentially no resale value in the MD-90 and the economic service life of the aircraft is at best ten to fifteen years

As mentioned, DL does not care about the residual value. Furthermore, the majority of the second hand MD-90s have low cycles, and are younger than their 12-14 years would indicate. I would not be shocked to see MD-90s in DL colors beyond 2025.

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 152):
DL did not find the M90 particularly compelling when new but wound up buying most of the world's M90s once they got really cheap.

The low acquisition costs made it a no-brainer for an airline already with multiple sub-types and oddballs. I would not discount the history of operating McDonnell Douglas twins either... UA could have purchased the MD-90s for the same price, but that never was going to happen.

Lastly, don't sell the MD-90 or 717 short. DL would not invest in these types if the BOD thought they were lemons, regardless of price.

[Edited 2012-03-20 22:36:31]

[Edited 2012-03-20 22:55:04]
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
BOACCunard
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:52 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 153):
Can't give you exact numbers, but they got some from UA/PA/AC and a couple from TW.

Right. So it is not like the practice of buying "pre-owned" airplanes is new to DL. It's actually something DL and NW had in common, though NW did it more aggressively.

Quoting SYfan100 (Reply 154):
Why didn't Richard Anderson buy the Boeing 717 when he was at Northwest? Why get it now?

Because it's (presumably) cheap now. Same deal as with the M90.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 156):
The low acquisition costs made it a no-brainer for an airline already with multiple sub-types and oddballs. I would not discount the history of operating McDonnell Douglas twins either... UA could have purchased the MD-90s for the same price, but that never was going to happen.

Lastly, don't sell the MD-90 or 717 short. DL would not invest in these types if the BOD thought they were lemons, regardless of price.

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest there is anything wrong with these types -- it is just that there is nothing compelling about them other than that they're really cheap. Otherwise, they would be good airplanes, but if an M90 cost the same as a 738 I am sure DL would go with the 738.
Getting There is Half the Fun!
 
deltal1011man
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:53 am

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 152):
How many used L10s did DL buy?

Not *that* many.

Quoting mayor (Reply 153):
UA/PA/AC and a couple from TW.

EA also.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 156):
although less likely; these frames have reportedly not aged as well as their ex-Asian counterparts.

I have heard the engines are trashed from the sand.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 156):
If the latter is taken up, or fleet sized pushed to 80+, expect the A320 phaseout to be further accelerated.

agreed.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 156):
the Super 98 PIP for the MD-90 fleet

wingtips on a 90? sweeeeet.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 156):
Other possibilities may include ER upgrades for select MD-90 frames

just a MTOW change yes?

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 156):
one can foresee further investment in the Mad Dog sub-fleets, including flight-deck upgrades for the MD-88/90.

Nothing like more glass, can Delta upgrade them enough for a single pilot pool?
 
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DL_Mech
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:03 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 158):
Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 152):
How many used L10s did DL buy?

Not *that* many.

10 from EA

3 from PA

5 from UA

6 from AC

The TW planes were leased.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
MD-80/90,MD-11
 
wjcandee
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:14 am

Quoting SYfan100 (Reply 154):

Why didn't Richard Anderson buy the Boeing 717 when he was at Northwest? Why get it now?

Price/Value

BTW, on the RR engine reliability issue, isn't the cost of this something that the manufacturer has already addressed with FL by having a fixed-price maintenance package? Isn't the dispatch reliability sufficient when they are maintained in accordance with the program?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:50 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 156):
For the next decade, the domestic backbone will consist of 739ER, 738, MD-90 and 717.

I may have missed the status of the sizable A32X fleet. What is the plan for the next decade?

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
deltal1011man
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:42 am

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 157):

Right. So it is not like the practice of buying "pre-owned" airplanes is new to DL. It's actually something DL and NW had in common, though NW did it more aggressively.

and NW had been know for buying airplanes like DC10s that airlines were parking vs upgrading its fleet. I don't think you'll be seeing Delta do to much of that. (ie when it comes time to start parking 67-300s you wont be seeing Delta replace them with newer 67s.)

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 159):
10 from EA

wow it was that many.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 161):

If all the 717s are gotten, plus most of the world M90 fleet most of the 320s will be parked. Of the 320 fleet, 3251-3278, or 28 are young. the rest of the fleet is 90-93 built, thus making them fairly old and, as noted the first off the 200 line. It is already expected that most of these birds will be gone with the 739 order. Now I do expect most of the 319 fleet to stay around till replacement comes.

Also some asked me earlier about the differences between the 37 and 319, well the Delta 737-732s have CFM56-7B26/3 engines and also have the equipment to become ETOPS aircraft if needed/wanted. The 319s have CFM56-5-A5 engines. What this means is the 73Ws has ~3,000lbs more thrust vs the 319s. This gives them a better hot/high/short runway performance. Delta needs this for routes like ATL-EYW/TGU/SNA/UIO and some others.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 151):

not sure if they are but I don't think it would be that hard to make them

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 155):
ATL if this goes thru and delta might just swap for those same gates

Wont happen. Delta needs more gates in Atlanta not less.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 156):
I would not be shocked to see MD-90s in DL colors beyond 2025.

agreed, not sure what the cycle limit on the 90 is, but if its anything like its older sister(M80) or even the 737 it will be in the fleet a long, long time.
 
srbmod
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:26 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26):
What's the maximum distance that an FL 717 has flown ?
Quoting Acey559 (Reply 33):
Offhand I'm not sure, but FL used to do MLI-LAS with the 717 back in '04 or so which is 1196nm. I remember it being said that that was about the max, and in fact MLI-LAS could be done but they wouldn't do BMI-LAS because of the headwinds westbound. Wikipedia has the range listed as 2060nm but practically I'm not sure what their furthest route is/was.

When FL first started service to DEN, it was with the 717 and that was really pushing it going west. Now when FL took delivery of their 717s, they would typically fly them nonstop LGB-MCO, which with only two pilots onboard, gave it the legs to do so (as did the tailwinds).

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 57):
AVOD on a 717??? Why??? They will be flying in markets under 2 hours in length?? ?Why in the world do they need AVOD???

AirTran had/has IFE on theirs in the form of SiriusXM satellite radio. DL flies their a/c that have their Delta On Demand IFE system on short hops, and the same can be said about F9 anf B6 as well.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 57):
Geez enough with the AVOD already. AVOD is sooo 2006. The next generation of IFE will be here in less than one year. All it will be is a database that youll access for $3 and watch on your iPad or iPhone. AVOD is yesterday;s news.


Not everyone owns (or will ever own) an tablet device, e-reader, smartphone, or even a laptop/netbook. Airlines aren't going to keep a closet full of devices to rent out to those without one. The content will be streamed via WiFi, but the seatback screens are likely to remain in use.


Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 75):
I don't believe TWA ever took delivery of the 717s they ordered before their demise.

You may be confusing their 717 order with their A318 order, as they never took delivery of the A318s they ordered as AA cancelled that order.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 78):
If WN/FL does transfer the 717s to DL, then what does WN/FL get out of the deal? Also, why hand over this kind of ammo to a competitor?
Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 83):
Another thought, are the 717s leased? If so, does WN/FL have to give the planes to a middle-man like Boeing who then gives them to DL?

I guess in the harsh light of day, WN realizes that straying from their model of operating only 737 family a/c isn't going to work out as planned. The airline has a decent number of 737s on order that can replace the 717s and many of the cities that FL flies into solely with the 717 are cities that have already been dropped or will likely be dropped.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 85):
Leased through Boeing Capital. My knowledge on the details is fuzzy. IDK if ALL or leased but I do know that those that are; the lease expirations aren't all at the same time. That's why i'm leaning towards DL not taking the whole lot but rather those up sooner.

Not all of them are leased via BCC. Early on they did do a series of sale and leasebacks with some other companies. Related note, does WN lease any of the a/c in their fleet?

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 95):

How much commonality is in the 717(MD95) and the MD90? I know the engines are different but could crews still have the same type-rating?

From what I recall back when FL first got them, their DC-9 pilots had to take a short differences course as part of the transition from the DC-9 to the 717. I'm not sure if all of their 732 pilots at the time were type-rated on the DC-9s as well, so I'm sure those that weren't had a longer transition course.
 
dtw9
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:40 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 163):
Not all of them are leased via BCC.



Wells Fargo holds the majority of the leases. Boeing holds 14 to 16 of the leases
 
deltal1011man
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:45 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 163):

Not everyone owns (or will ever own) an tablet device, e-reader, smartphone, or even a laptop/netbook. Airlines aren't going to keep a closet full of devices to rent out to those without one. The content will be streamed via WiFi, but the seatback screens are likely to remain in use.

This.
not only that but you will also eliminate people without (useful) powerports. Not everyone has a brand new laptop with a 3+ hour battery.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 163):
Related note, does WN lease any of the a/c in their fleet?

per the 2010 10K
67 -300s
9 -500s
21 -700s
are leased.
104 -300s
16 -500s
331 -700s
are owned.
 
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knope2001
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:11 am

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 33):
Offhand I'm not sure, but FL used to do MLI-LAS with the 717 back in '04 or so which is 1196nm. I remember it being said that that was about the max, and in fact MLI-LAS could be done but they wouldn't do BMI-LAS because of the headwinds westbound. Wikipedia has the range listed as 2060nm but practically I'm not sure what their furthest route is/was.

YX occasionally operated them on MKE-SEA which is just short os 1,700 miles to cover for a broken M80, but that was generally around 80 pax onboard at most. Not likely reliable at that distance. YX did reliably operate MKE-LAS with 99 pax which is over 1500 miles year round. FL operates MKE-FLL at about 1250 miles with 117 pax.

I'm not sure 1,500 miles at 99 pax and 1,250 miles at 117 pax are the absolutely limits of reliable range, but I've not heard of chronic weight issues on those legs. So Delta will probably find those as doable, especially since it's likely they'll have fewer than 117 seats.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 134):
but I don't think you will see something like NW has done with DC9s or DC10s. (ie buying aircraft that are not in the same generation as new aircraft) out of Delta.

As you point out, the situations of each are much different and the reasons why they acquired the used aircraft are all different.

NW DC-9:
Through the merger with RC (and all of the predecesor airlines that made them up) NW got a sizable fleet of DC-9-10/30/40/50 aircraft that by 1993 were ~14-27 years old. As NW started to retire some of the older frames, mostly high cycle -10s and a few -30s, NW was in a tough financial condition. They were looking at 737-3/4/500's and MD-80s but ultimately they did not have the capital necessary to take an ambitious fleet renewal that was already seeing A320s (replacing older 727s), 757s, and 744s. After a lot of research they determined they could overall, modernize, and refurbish the DC-9s at a cost of $3-$5M per aircraft and fly them for an additional ~15 years, or until they reached about 100,000 cycles. At the same time, other airlines were shedding their DC-9s that were in the same age range as NW's plus there were low-cycle EA DC-9s that had been in storage for 3-4 years. It is interesting to note the challenges that fleet renewal brings in a post-merger environment.

NW DC-10-30:
NW needed to rapidly expand their Trans-Atlantic operation following the NW-KLM alliance. They had a fleet of 20 year old DC-10-40s that were primarily used for domestic truck operations, and the existing TATL and some TPAC flying. There were several high-quality, second-hand DC-10-30s in the marketplace and other airlines retired them from their fleets as they acquired MD-11, and 767 aircraft. NW was in poor financial condition and could not finance a large order of additional widebodies, so the DC-10-30s were a cheaper, and quicker option to get additional widebody capacity.

The 717 and MD-90 cases are very unique in the sense that they are two orphan fleet types that were not produced in mass quality, mostly due to the McD-Boeing merger. Unlike the NW DC-9 and DC-10 cases, these frames are not being retired due to being at the end of their depreciated life.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 149):
pretty much. As soon as Delta needs a 160 seater that can fly T-cons they will by more 800s.

Right now DL is in no need of additional 738s or 160 seater that can fly Trans-cons. The MD-90s can be used to free up 738s for that purpose in the meantime. Plus, DL isn't exactly growing capacity in these types of markets in the short term.
 
burnsie28
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 160):
Price/Value

Supposidly it was actually because at the time Boeing had no plans to offer another varient of the 717, by the time Boeing last ditched effort to add the -300 it was too late. NW at the time wanted a 1 for 1 717 for the DC-9-30 -40 and -50.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 167):
Right now DL is in no need of additional 738s or 160 seater that can fly Trans-cons. The MD-90s can be used to free up 738s for that purpose in the meantime. Plus, DL isn't exactly growing capacity in these types of markets in the short term.

Exactly one of the big things that kept NW profitable was the 100 seat market, currently we have a 50 seat gap between RJ's and Mainline.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 161):
I may have missed the status of the sizable A32X fleet. What is the plan for the next decade?

No change they plan to operate them and the A32X fleet is a good size larger than the 737 fleet.

DL currently has 126 A32x (57 A319 with 5 on order, and 69 A320 with 2 on order)
DL currently has 83 737's (10 737-700 and 73 737-800 with 0 on order for each)
Of course this will all change with the 739 eventually.
 
727forever
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:23 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 155):
I have no idea what the 717s high alititude performance is but Delta might still be interested in them or at least might discuss a proposed swap of some type if they could get a really good deal.

IIRC for airtran ATL-DEN was the range limit for the 717s. SLC-ATL would not be going out loaded nor would Delta want to. The summer schedule is gonna be 3x 767-300, 757-300, 757-200s and 737-800s. That plane is just too small Delta would schedule it with a stop somewhere like OKC if they needed to bridge them with 717s for some reason. This plane is to replace the MD-88s and DC9s probably so they would just go where they are now ATL and MSP mostly i would think for the 717s. Ironically alot of those 717s could remain in ATL if this goes thru and delta might just swap for those same gates. I would think Delta is gonna want a realy sweat deal for this to go thru but it really might be a win win if WN really wants to dump these so badly.



The numbers game is a little funny as there are a lot of variables involved. For instance, to save money FL chose to use lower weights to pay less on landing fees. DL did this for most the the 88/90 lives only recently raising the numbers to allow more revenue potential. I can tell you that the 717 can fly 1200nm with a full load, but that is about it. FL used them on FLL-BOS which was the realistic limit. DEN does pose some unique challenges with the altitude, but the 717 rarely has issues with not enough thrust. It is typically a structural limit weight or range. With the dial a flap the airplane has a very wide range of takeoff capability.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 133):
Very aware of that I said 32X, not "Delta's" 32Xs.



As for the question on the IAE engine on the MD-90 having similar fuel burn numbers at an A320 with the same engines, not so fast. While they do have a similar burn profile, the airframe that they are attached to are quite different. The A320 airframe is slightly heavier than the MD-90, but the A320 has a much better wing on it. The MD-90 wing is the same as the MD-80 which is a DC-9-30 wing with a fillet installed at the wing root to add wing area. The MD-90 is far heavier than a DC-9-30 and a fair bit heavier than the MD-80 so it just can't fly as high as the wing can not safely lift all that mass with a full load as high. In fact, most of the time the MD-90 is limited to a cruise altitude between 29,000' - 32,000' where the A320 is flying between 35,000' - 37,000'. This will allow the A320 to have a lower fuel burn than the MD-90 as it can take better advantage of the thinner air at the altitude in which it cruises.


727forever
727forever
 
packcheer
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:39 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 109):
Markets with less than 4-5 frequency would not be candidates since it would make for some rather long connecting times between certain city pairs and not align with international arrival and departure banks.

Speaking as a 6'3" man, I would take an hour or two longer connecting time if it gets me a 717 out of DSM (or any other city, but I fly out of DSM). I understand the business need and sense of running RJ's, but my legs and my knees keep me wanting mianline jets with at least a little more leg room....
Things that fly, Girls and Planes...
 
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seabosdca
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 168):
No change they plan to operate them and the A32X fleet is a good size larger than the 737 fleet.

DL currently has 126 A32x (57 A319 with 5 on order, and 69 A320 with 2 on order)
DL currently has 83 737's (10 737-700 and 73 737-800 with 0 on order for each)
Of course this will all change with the 739 eventually.

42 of the 69 A320s are in the pre-1993 batch and will need replacement within 10 years.

The remaining 27 A320s and the 57 A319s are newer and will probably soldier on for quite some time.

DL has not exactly been in a hurry to add to the fleet or to take delivery of the aircraft on order. At the same time, though, they did take delivery of two 737-800s and a boatload of used MD-90s.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:47 pm

It was interesting to note that back about 7-10 years ago, NW was claiming that the DC-9-30/40/50 had better operating costs on short segments than the A319, particularly the sub-300 mile routes.

Routes like DTW-FNT, GRR, TVC, MKE, ORD. MSP-MSN, MKE, ORD.

The justification being that the A319 was a much heavier airplane and that it actually burned more fuel on take-off and at low speed / altitude than a DC-9. During the short cruise (if any one some of these segments), yes the A319 had much better fuel burn.

That being said, this was when fuel was cheaper, but it is interesting to note the different optimal economic route profiles of each aircraft type
 
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United_fan
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:49 pm

Almost makes me wonder if DL would take on FL's 717 mechanics as part of a deal ? Simulators too,which are probably in ATL along with hangar space.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
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mayor
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:00 pm

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 159):
10 from EA

3 from PA

5 from UA

6 from AC

The TW planes were leased.

IIRC, at the time, those Tristars from UA were ones that were originally rejected by DL when PA had them, I assume for mechanical reasons. Apparently, UA fixed them up and THEN they were acceptable.



DL may not have done much buying of used a/c and then flying the wings off, but they did fly the wings off the original DC-9 fleet as well as the 727 fleet.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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msp747
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:30 pm

One route I hope gets upgraded is MSP to BOI. That was always flown with A320's under NW. DL downgraded it to CRJ9's shortly after the merger. Seems like a big drop in seats, especially since the 320's were always full. I know that means they could have been getting junk fares to fill the seats, but there seems to be more demand on this route than just 76 seaters twice a day (with an extra flight around the holidays and during the summer). NW started this route in the mid 90's with DC93's - maybe the 717 is the perfect size for the route.
 
RL757PVD
Posts: 3225
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:51 pm

I think the most interesting part of this story is how things will come full-circle:

Delta sells DC9's to Valujet
Valujet makes hub in ATL, becomes Air Tran
Air Tran replaces DC9s with 717s
Southwest buys Air Tran
Southwest unloads 717s to Delta

The whole thing reminds me of the dating pool here in upstate NY....
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8539
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:55 pm

Can someone go back to the source of this rumor:

A tweet?

I'm just curious about the context of how and why this topic came up, and who might have been knowledgable in the audience to make such claims.
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting rl757pvd (Reply 176):
I think the most interesting part of this story is how things will come full-circle:

Delta sells DC9's to Valujet
Valujet makes hub in ATL, becomes Air Tran
Air Tran replaces DC9s with 717s
Southwest buys Air Tran
Southwest unloads 717s to Delta

The whole thing reminds me of the dating pool here in upstate NY....

Delta DID NOT sell DC-9-32's to Valujet. Delta purchased MD-88's from McDD, and traded in their DC-9-32's. McDD sold the DC-9-32's to Valujet. Valujet bought Air Tran, and adopted their name.
 
EMB170
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26):
What's the maximum distance that an FL 717 has flown

I know FL used the 717 on ATL-DEN, DFW-LAX, DFW, LAS, and DFW-BWI. Offhand, those would seem like the longest routes to me.
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
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knope2001
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting EMB170 (Reply 179):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26):What's the maximum distance that an FL 717 has flown
I know FL used the 717 on

I think MSP-MCO at 1310 miles is the longest IIRC from a similar question a few years back. MLI-LAS is longer, but I only see evidence of it being served by the 737.
 
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United_fan
Posts: 6691
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting rl757pvd (Reply 176):
I think the most interesting part of this story is how things will come full-circle:

Delta sells DC9's to Valujet
Valujet makes hub in ATL, becomes Air Tran
Air Tran replaces DC9s with 717s
Southwest buys Air Tran
Southwest unloads 717s to Delta

The whole thing reminds me of the dating pool here in upstate NY....

'Aint that the truth.  
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
brilondon
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:34 pm

This may have been covered but I would like to know why is the 717 so coveted seemingly now then when it was offered for sale originally?
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
RL757PVD
Posts: 3225
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 178):

Delta DID NOT sell DC-9-32's to Valujet. Delta purchased MD-88's from McDD, and traded in their DC-9-32's. McDD sold the DC-9-32's to Valujet. Valujet bought Air Tran, and adopted their name.

Ok, so almost the same type of transaction, still interesting now it came full circle.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 165):
This.
not only that but you will also eliminate people without (useful) powerports. Not everyone has a brand new laptop with a 3+ hour battery.

I know that when I'm flying ATL-LAS, I always make sure my stuff is fully charged before I leave the house and will do a top off charge at the gate.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 173):
Simulators too,which are probably in ATL along with hangar space.

AirTran doesn't have any 717 sims. They use the 717 sims over at Alteon's ATL location as this is where their 717 and 737 pilots do their sim training at. DL doesn't need any additional hangar space at ATL, as if they did, they wouldn't have closed TechOps North (now the headquarters/hangar for ExpressJet).
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 182):
This may have been covered but I would like to know why is the 717 so coveted seemingly now then when it was offered for sale originally?

It isn't coveted by any airline. It is a good rumor for the armchair CEO's to discuss on this forum.
 
MountainFlyer
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:19 am

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 182):
This may have been covered but I would like to know why is the 717 so coveted seemingly now then when it was offered for sale originally?

It is mostly because DL's strategy at the moment seems to be picking up slightly used aircraft with decent operating costs at a fraction of the costs of brand-new aircraft. Specifically with the MD-90, DL has targeted modern used aircraft that do not have a large resale market like the 737 or A320 do. The 717 is both similar to the MD-90 both in form and in the situation (modern aircraft, out of production).

Outside of DL, there probably isn't such a huge market for these 717's, which is why DL will probably be able to get such a great deal on them if this is a legit rumor.

Also, during the 717's production, RJs were a lot more economical to operate than they are now, and could be purchased and operated cheaper to increase frequency. That, plus the fact that the 717 is actually a remnant of the former McDonnell Douglas, and it in fact competed against Boeing own 737 line, Boeing was not all that disappointed to let it die.
SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5297
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 173):
Almost makes me wonder if DL would take on FL's 717 mechanics as part of a deal ?

We wouldn't have to bring on their mechanics, as ours can easily adapt, just like the guys in ATL are doing some work on the Airbus fleet etc. For the most part its all the same principal regardless of aircraft.
 
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Polot
Posts: 11239
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 182):
This may have been covered but I would like to know why is the 717 so coveted seemingly now then when it was offered for sale originally?

Because it is only "coveted" (at least on A.net) because they would be available for cheap. No one covets a 717 that is priced at list price minus the typical discount, as they were sold when originally on sale.

Same story with the MD-90.
 
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lindy field
Posts: 2986
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:52 pm

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:18 pm

What a pity that Delta missed the opportunity to build up a fleet of other orphan types like the Concorde or the Mercure...
 
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DL_Mech
Posts: 2577
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 7:48 am

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 187):
Quoting United_fan (Reply 173):
Almost makes me wonder if DL would take on FL's 717 mechanics as part of a deal ?

We wouldn't have to bring on their mechanics, as ours can easily adapt, just like the guys in ATL are doing some work on the Airbus fleet etc. For the most part its all the same principal regardless of aircraft.

DL TechOps does work on Rolls Royce RB-211-535 757s as well.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
MD-80/90,MD-11
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 25097
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:31 pm

Gary Kelly during the media Q&A session following the 737-800 event in Dallas today had the following to say ---

Kelly: "I can't comment. What I would say is that 717 is a fine airplane. We would be better suited with all 737s. If anything, we think our future is with bigger airplanes, not smaller. There's no secret that we're looking for a way to accelerate the retirement of the 717s out of our fleet. But in any event, we're going to operate the 717s for years. Otherwise, I'm aware of the rumors and I can't comment."

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...ary-kelly-wont-discuss-rumors.html

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
QANTAS747-438
Posts: 1739
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 7:01 am

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 191):
Kelly: "I can't comment. What I would say is that 717 is a fine airplane.

Uh oh, that's CEO talk for "It's a gonner".

I hope not, though. Love the 717!
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
 
n7371f
Topic Author
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:33 pm

Quoting SYfan100 (Reply 154):
Why didn't Richard Anderson buy the Boeing 717 when he was at Northwest? Why get it now?

When Boeing was trying to sell the 717 to NWA, they were still at a stage where they could fly much of their DC-9 series fleet for several more years; it wasn't vital to order a replacement at the time.

Now just before the merger with Delta, NWA was looking heavily at a DC-9 replacement. I can vouch from a couple of folks who worked in Building A at the time that the Bombardier C-series was very likely going to be ordered. And the public comments from Bombardier shortly after the merger indicate they thought Northwest was nearly signed on as well.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 167):
They had a fleet of 20 year old DC-10-40s that were primarily used for domestic truck operations, and the existing TATL and some TPAC flying.

Also, the -40's were not best equipped for the TATL flying. Others have referred to them as dogs across the ocean. The P&W engines were also not the best type for that type of flying. Yes, -40's did run a few TATL and a couple of them were configured for TATL but Northwest knew it needed the -30's for mission requirements.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 185):
It isn't coveted by any airline. It is a good rumor for the armchair CEO's to discuss on this forum.

For what it's worth, friends who work in DL FlightOps have said on-and-off for nearly a year that various departments within the airline were looking at the 717 - analysis, deployment, etc...
 
n7371f
Topic Author
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:48 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 168):
DL currently has 126 A32x (57 A319 with 5 on order, and 69 A320 with 2 on order)

And those 7 Airbus 320-series planes will very likely never end up delivered. Northwest, and now Delta, have had the right to cancel them at any time with no penalty. In fact, Delta doesn't even officially list them as on-order I believe. It's the same scenario with United's much larger 320-series order except UA says in its 10K it has no plans to take any of the aircraft.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 177):
Can someone go back to the source of this rumor:

A tweet?

I'm just curious about the context of how and why this topic came up, and who might have been knowledgable in the audience to make such claims.

It came up during a discussion at the Scottsdale conference and was uttered by an aircraft leasing executive to a newspaper reporter, Holly Hegeman (who I think may have been the tweeter) and a few others. I got a text about it shortly before Holly mentioned it.

As to whether it's really true, I don't know. The people I know in Delta keep dwindling as the former NWA folks move on and my friends left there simply don't know one way or another. However, take a look at my previous post about DL departments running numbers on the 717 -- and even more so now, the no comments from Gary and Ed.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 164):


Wells Fargo holds the majority of the leases. Boeing holds 14 to 16 of the leases

Wells Fargo Bank NW Trustee merely serves as the paying agent of investors who own the plane. In the case of the 717's, I believe all but a handful of them are owned by Boeing Capital. 4 were owned by Pembroke last time I checked and about a dozen were owned by Hawk Leasing, which I can't recall whether or not it is a subsidiary of Boeing Capital.
 
gizmonc
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:51 pm

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 75):

TWA?

I don't believe TWA ever took delivery of the 717s they ordered before their demise.

TWA had the 717 before AA purchased THEM.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1998/news_release_981209a.html

Delivery started in Feb 2000.

you guys need to learn to use GOOGLE
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:56 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 185):
It isn't coveted by any airline. It is a good rumor for the armchair CEO's to discuss on this forum.

Really? Because it's not on the front page in writing. Because all business transactions are made public on day one. Really?  
Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 192):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 191):
Kelly: "I can't comment. What I would say is that 717 is a fine airplane.

Uh oh, that's CEO talk for "It's a gonner".

   No comment is certainly not a "not true" to the question asked..
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
n7371f
Topic Author
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 195):
TWA?

I don't believe TWA ever took delivery of the 717s they ordered before their demise.

TWA had the 717 before AA purchased THEM.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1998/news_release_981209a.html

Delivery started in Feb 2000.

you guys need to learn to use GOOGLE

You're splitting hairs. Example: TWA did take delivery of the 717's because TWA still operating as a stand-alone airline with its own operating certificate. And as several have previously noted, the first dozen or so were delivered in full TWA colors, the remainder with AA-cheat lines and TWA titles.
 
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asqx
Posts: 662
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 4:56 pm

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:02 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 197):
You're splitting hairs. Example: TWA did take delivery of the 717's because TWA still operating as a stand-alone airline with its own operating certificate. And as several have previously noted, the first dozen or so were delivered in full TWA colors, the remainder with AA-cheat lines and TWA titles

TWA's first 717 was delivered in Feb 2000. American purchased TWA in April 2001. Of the 30 717s TWA/AA did take delivery of, 15 were delivered prior to the acquisition. Of the remaining 15, 10 were delivered in TWA colors, 2 were delivered in AA colors with TWA titles and the last three were not painted and sent to storage without going into service. Interestingly a third 717 wore the AA/TWA colors. N2717F made an emergency landing at Mid-America/Scott AFB on August 9, 2001. While being repaired it was also repainted.
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 180):
Quoting EMB170 (Reply 179):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26):What's the maximum distance that an FL 717 has flown
I know FL used the 717 on

I think MSP-MCO at 1310 miles is the longest IIRC from a similar question a few years back. MLI-LAS is longer, but I only see evidence of it being served by the 737.

So I see. I think that DL could use a 717 on such a route too 
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