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TZTriStar500
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:38 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 194):
Wells Fargo Bank NW Trustee merely serves as the paying agent of investors who own the plane. In the case of the 717's, I believe all but a handful of them are owned by Boeing Capital. 4 were owned by Pembroke last time I checked and about a dozen were owned by Hawk Leasing, which I can't recall whether or not it is a subsidiary of Boeing Capital.

I believe you are correct on BCC being the owner of most and Hawk is a subsidiary of BCC. It has the same address.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
Bobloblaw
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 56):
It says absolutely nothing whatsoever.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 58):
This sentence makes no sense. But the premise of what I think you are trying to say is flawed too. WN's costs haven't changed dramatically since the FL acquisition. Costs aren't what changed WN's tune on the 712. I think merger politics probably are.

I think there is no doubt that WN's labor costs are so high that they cant operate a 100-120 seat aircraft profitably, where as DL can. I am not sure what merger politics would require dumping the 717. I know WN's 737-700 CASM is higher than FL's 717-200 CASM which is astounding given the 73G has 20 more seats to spread costs over.
 
Josh32121
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 163):
Not everyone owns (or will ever own) an tablet device, e-reader, smartphone, or even a laptop/netbook. Airlines aren't going to keep a closet full of devices to rent out to those without one.

Why not? A cabinet stocked with 20 iPads has got to be cheaper to outfit and weighs less than having all that wiring and equipment boxes under every bank of seats--not to mention the LCD units themselves. With the iPad's stellar battery life, there's no reason this solution wouldn't be sufficient for cross-country (U.S.) or even longer flights. With the 717, it's a no-brainer since the range limits in-flight time to about three hours, right? Chop off 15-20 minutes on either end due to the 10,000-foot rule, and it's within the battery life of many devices. Charging stations in airports allow people to board with a fully-charged battery, too. I still question the penetration rate of tablets/e-readers/etc.--particularly among passengers who might be willing to spend a little extra to watch HBO or Showtime programs for a fee. Remember, it's all about ancillary revenue these days and keeping those high-yield customers happy! I believe frequent flyers (generally higher-yielding customers) and people willing to fork over a few bucks for a BOB meal or pay-per-view program are far more likely to have sprung for an iPad/tablet, making the PTV obsolete.

With these 717's (DL's acquisition of which is still just speculation, right?), I think there's a much less compelling business case to outfit them with AVOD than there would have been just 3-5 years ago. That makes the cost of integrating them into DL's fleet that much more appealing. Repaint, replace the seat covers, train crew, and blast off!
 
TSS
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 202):
Quoting srbmod (Reply 163):
Not everyone owns (or will ever own) an tablet device, e-reader, smartphone, or even a laptop/netbook. Airlines aren't going to keep a closet full of devices to rent out to those without one.

Why not? A cabinet stocked with 20 iPads has got to be cheaper to outfit and weighs less than having all that wiring and equipment boxes under every bank of seats--not to mention the LCD units themselves. With the iPad's stellar battery life, there's no reason this solution wouldn't be sufficient for cross-country (U.S.) or even longer flights.

Why rely on device battery life when it would be better to have either a power port or device dock at each seat? That way passengers could recharge their own devices while in flight, and the devices rented out by the airline would not need to be kept fully charged when not in use.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
floridaflyboy
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting TSS (Reply 204):

Why rely on device battery life when it would be better to have either a power port or device dock at each seat? That way passengers could recharge their own devices while in flight, and the devices rented out by the airline would not need to be kept fully charged when not in use.

I think DL has USB ports on some aircraft for charging iPods, iPads, etc.
Good goes around!
 
deltal1011man
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 202):

If only it were that easy.
What about when someone breaks one? What about if one just stops working? now times this by the 1,000s of iPads it would take times $300-700...not so cheap.

[Edited 2012-03-22 08:24:56]
 
frmrCapCadet
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Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:11 pm

I noticed on my last flight (WN), that way over half, maybe 80% had some sort of electronic devcice. The person next to me couldn't find the Kindle so used a smart phone! In neither direction was wi-fi available but it is coming. So far no ports for recharging, anyone know different?
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milesrich
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting n7371f (Reply 193):
Why didn't Richard Anderson buy the Boeing 717 when he was at Northwest? Why get it now?

Price! It's like the difference between a new car, and one that is a year or two old with less than 20,000 miles on it. But here, because the 717 is no longer manufactured, and few airlines bought them, they price for used ones, just like the MD-90's is very low. And since there are 80 some airframes available, Delta can operate a large subfleet with the same economies of scale they enjoy on their other aircraft like the 757, A319/320, 737-700/800, etc. Additionally, I believe that because of their experience, both with Northwest, and Delta, the decision makers know that these are "stout" aircraft that have many more years of service left in them. Delta has been flying DC-9 and their derivative aircraft for 46+ years. Northwest's family of carriers (Bonanza, West Coast, North Central, and Southern) began flying the DC-9 within a year of Delta's first DC-9 flight too.

So the real question is, why not pick up the fleet if it can be acquired at a low cost.
 
ikramerica
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 202):
Why not? A cabinet stocked with 20 iPads has got to be cheaper to outfit and weighs less than having all that wiring and equipment boxes under every bank of seats--not to mention the LCD units themselves.

Why iPad? 7" cheapo tablet is all that is needed, or iPod touch, etc. The airline only cares if it can do wifi and browse web and play the video. Don't need an expensive iPad for that.

Airlines have had digiplayers and various other forms of personal players available for rent (or free for J/F) so why not this?

Of course, it sucks if you want to eat and watch a movie at the same time, so some kind of universal holding bracket can be attached to the back of the headrest?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Josh32121
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 205):
What about when someone breaks one? What about if one just stops working? now times this by the 1,000s of iPads it would take times $300-700...not so cheap.
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 208):
Why iPad? 7" cheapo tablet is all that is needed, or iPod touch, etc. The airline only cares if it can do wifi and browse web and play the video. Don't need an expensive iPad for that.

True, a non-iPad tablet could work, but they've already got them sitting in gate areas at LGA to order food--why not on planes watching TV or browsing the web? Plus, iOS (let's not get into an Android/Windows/iOS spar here) is a pretty user-friendly and familiar interface for most everyone. Even people that don't have iPhones/iPads themselves know someone who does and have probably used them.

And you wouldn't need one for every single seat...just a few (15-20) for the increasingly fewer number of people who (a.) don't have such a device and (b.) want to watch TV or surf the web while on board for a fee. The cost of these few units per plane (particularly if older 1st or 2nd gen iPads or other tablets were used) has got to be thousands and thousands less than installing a PTV/AVOD system. Particularly when scaled up to the potentially 88 frames at the center of this discussion.

Given tremendous advances in technology surrounding personal/portable computing and media distribution, having what amounts to a television set in front of every single passenger on a plane is arguably an unnecessary expense. This could translate into a significant reduction in changeover costs to align a pre-owned airplane's hard product with an airline's existing fleet. Eliminating costs like that on what are already fairly inexpensive planes could have a meaningful impact on the decison to buy them or not. Count every bean!  
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:33 pm

Not sure why we are even having this conversation about PTV systems on rumored 717s.

DL's current plan on IFE is pretty clear, they are not putting PTVs on aircraft that exclusively fly short-medium length domestic flights. Doing so is not a very wise use of DL's extremly limited CAPEX spend where there are numerous required and/or revenue generating projects to pursue.
 
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seabosdca
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 210):
Not sure why we are even having this conversation about PTV systems on rumored 717s.

Because given 200 replies any a.net thread about fleet decisions will always devolve into a PTV thread.  

I'm starting to get suspicious of this rumor, or at least think it was oversold... if a firm deal was actually reached, I think we would have had word of it by now.
 
clemsonaj
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:38 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 211):
I'm starting to get suspicious of this rumor, or at least think it was oversold... if a firm deal was actually reached, I think we would have had word of it by now.

Not necessarily. Good news is usually announced at the beginning of the week to have to most positive effect on the stock price. I would say if true it will hit the press Monday or Tuesday.
 
jetlanta
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 211):
I'm starting to get suspicious of this rumor, or at least think it was oversold... if a firm deal was actually reached, I think we would have had word of it by now.

Not necessarily.
 
GSPSPOT
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 210):
DL's current plan on IFE is pretty clear, they are not putting PTVs on aircraft that exclusively fly short-medium length domestic flights.

Seems I remember a time not too long ago, that even on non-PTV equipped a/c, DL usually had at least the drop-down screens with some sitcoms and the Airshow maps on most mainlin flights. Would that work/be a less-expensive option on the 717??
Great Lakes, great life.
 
timf
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 214):

Seems I remember a time not too long ago, that even on non-PTV equipped a/c, DL usually had at least the drop-down screens with some sitcoms and the Airshow maps on most mainlin flights. Would that work/be a less-expensive option on the 717??

There's no real point to this. Whether PTVs or overhead screens, it's still an unnecessary expense for aircraft that will be used mostly on flights under 2 hours. It would make a lot more sense to standardize the 737 fleet with AVOD than it would be to add it to 717s, and there's not even plans for this. The 717s are not going to get any hardwired video system, plain and simple.
 
GSPSPOT
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:11 pm

Quoting timf (Reply 215):
There's no real point to this. Whether PTVs or overhead screens, it's still an unnecessary expense for aircraft that will be used mostly on flights under 2 hours. It would make a lot more sense to standardize the 737 fleet with AVOD than it would be to add it to 717s, and there's not even plans for this. The 717s are not going to get any hardwired video system, plain and simple.

I'd just like to see the hard product on any given airline standardized across the mainline fleet. RJs - I can see not having it there.
Great Lakes, great life.
 
mcg
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:49 pm

Slightly off topic, but how much did DL pay for each of the MD-90s? I know it may have varied some due to differing condition of the airplanes, but I'm curious as to what they might have paid. How much did the refurb to put them in service cost? Are they all in service or are some awaiting refurbishment?

The reason I'm asking is that (I think) in a post above a ration 1 to 4 for cost of the MD-90 vs. 738 is mentioned. This seems high to me, I just can't imagine DL paying $12.5 million for each of these orphen aircraft. I could be wrong though.

The follow on question is what will DL have to pay for the 717's? You'd think buying them all from WN would drive a pretty attractive price.

Thanks
 
luvtrains
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:13 pm

1-to-3 is a common number i've heard., it would be interesting to get a ballpark number from a reliable source/doc.

Given that DL has 50 MD-90s locked up, is fifty a round number stopping point? boeing has four md-90s on the forsale webpage that DL hasn't taken. 28+1 md-90s belong to saudi arabian airlines, the two sides must have talked at some point, at the very least a broker has brought this idea up... suppose that the four md-90 a/c on the boeing website are market testing aircraft (testing the market to find the approximate true price) you would think if both sides could establish a "fair market price" that saudi arabian airlines would trade ~3-1 for dl's ab320s, and settle with cash any market value difference for the lot?

DL's MD nb fleet could look like... three, four years out?
58 md88s (half of current)
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seabosdca
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:22 pm

Quoting luvtrains (Reply 218):
Given that DL has 50 MD-90s locked up, is fifty a round number stopping point?

They currently have 58 and it's a foregone conclusion that they'll get 7 more (the other JAL frames).

Quoting luvtrains (Reply 218):
boeing has four md-90s on the forsale webpage that DL hasn't taken.

These belong to Lion Air. Last I heard only two were airworthy, and even those were in poor condition.

Quoting luvtrains (Reply 218):
you would think if both sides could establish a "fair market price" that saudi arabian airlines would trade ~3-1 for dl's ab320s, and settle with cash any market value difference for the lot?

Most of DL's A320s are old enough that they don't have much remaining value. 27 of them are newer, but I doubt DL will want to get rid of those in favor of aging MD-90s. The MD-90s are just a cost-effective way to replace capacity that's aging out of the fleet (DC-9s, very old 757s).
 
ikramerica
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 209):
True, a non-iPad tablet could work, but they've already got them sitting in gate areas at LGA to order food--why not on planes watching TV or browsing the web? Plus, iOS (let's not get into an Android/Windows/iOS spar here) is a pretty user-friendly and familiar interface for most everyone. Even people that don't have iPhones/iPads themselves know someone who does and have probably used them.

I'm not here to argue technology, and I personally have iphones and macs, but for what these tablets are needed for, the iPad is an expensive overkill product. Android is a good OS to put a shell on. So a simple shell that has a button for internet, a button that brings up a media browser, and a button that brings up a games folder is all that is really needed. iOS may not even be the best interface for something like that, frankly, because it's not customizable visually.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
B757Forever
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 211):
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 211):
I'm starting to get suspicious of this rumor, or at least think it was oversold... if a firm deal was actually reached, I think we would have had word of it by now.

You will most likely hear something official around the April-May timeframe, not much sooner.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
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seabosdca
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:48 pm

Quoting B757forever (Reply 221):
You will most likely hear something official around the April-May timeframe, not much sooner.

That doesn't square with the requirement that the company file an 8-K within 4 days of entering into a material definitive agreement. An agreement to acquire 88 717s is most definitely a material definitive agreement. If no 8-K gets filed, I can only assume the agreement is not actually final yet.
 
B757Forever
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 222):
That doesn't square with the requirement that the company file an 8-K within 4 days of entering into a material definitive agreement. An agreement to acquire 88 717s is most definitely a material definitive agreement. If no 8-K gets filed, I can only assume the agreement is not actually final yet.

Agreed. Being very far along and being finalized are entirely different. The 717 deal for DL is very far along.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
n7371f
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 219):
Most of DL's A320s are old enough that they don't have much remaining value.

That is correct. Earlier someone opined that the first batch of 320's NW took had a lot of life left in them which really isn't true. Heck NW had several of them broken up during the bankruptcy...and it's generally a given that the Airbus narrowbodies don't have quite as long a life in service as the Boeing's.
 
burnsie28
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:30 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 194):
In fact, Delta doesn't even officially list them as on-order I believe

They are still listed on on-order, I got the information from the Q1 fleet books.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:17 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 219):
Most of DL's A320s are old enough that they don't have much remaining value. 27 of them are newer, but I doubt DL will want to get rid of those in favor of aging MD-90s.

Newer A320s and aging MD-90s? Of the younger A320s, 20 of 28 were delivered in 1998-1999. The second hand MD-90s were built between 1996-2000. Given this data, I would say it's a wash in terms of age. Factor in the lower cycle usage of the of second hand MD-90s and superior durability of the airframe, one could argue the A320s are indeed more "aged."
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flyabr
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:22 am

I know the DC-9 was certified to 100,000 cycles...does anybody know what the 717/MD-90 are certified for?
 
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TZTriStar500
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:47 am

Quoting flyabr (Reply 227):
I know the DC-9 was certified to 100,000 cycles...does anybody know what the 717/MD-90 are certified for?

60,000 cycles.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
flyabr
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Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:06 am

Wow...why the big difference between the original and these derivatives?
 
MountainFlyer
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:11 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 228):
Quoting flyabr (Reply 227):
I know the DC-9 was certified to 100,000 cycles...does anybody know what the 717/MD-90 are certified for?

60,000 cycles.
Quoting flyabr (Reply 229):
Wow...why the big difference between the original and these derivatives?

Yeah, no kidding. Why the difference? Did they give up some durability in favor of lighter weight perhaps?
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sunking737
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:57 am

Quoting milesrich (Reply 207):
Price! It's like the difference between a new car, and one that is a year or two old with less than 20,000 miles on it. But here, because the 717 is no longer manufactured, and few airlines bought them, they price for used ones, just like the MD-90's is very low. And since there are 80 some airframes available, Delta can operate a large subfleet with the same economies of scale they enjoy on their other aircraft like the 757, A319/320, 737-700/800, etc. Additionally, I believe that because of their experience, both with Northwest, and Delta, the decision makers know that these are "stout" aircraft that have many more years of service left in them. Delta has been flying DC-9 and their derivative aircraft for 46+ years. Northwest's family of carriers (Bonanza, West Coast, North Central, and Southern) began flying the DC-9 within a year of Delta's first DC-9 flight too.

So the real question is, why not pick up the fleet if it can be acquired at a low cost.

Republic had at one time via Southern the #3 DC-9-10 off the line that went to Delta. It was DL first DC-9-10 IIRC.
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deltal1011man
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:35 am

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 225):

They are still listed on on-order, I got the information from the Q1 fleet books.

He is talking about the 10K which is much, much more important than the fleet book.

Excludes our orders for five A319-100 aircraft and two A320-200 aircraft because we have the right to cancel these order.

But it does list the orders/options for 737/767/777/787 and M90s.
 
bjorn14
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:25 am

Quoting mcg (Reply 217):
You'd think buying them all from WN would drive a pretty attractive price.

They maybe just taking over the leases from WN if it happens before 2017.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:35 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 217):
The reason I'm asking is that (I think) in a post above a ration 1 to 4 for cost of the MD-90 vs. 738 is mentioned. This seems high to me, I just can't imagine DL paying $12.5 million for each of these orphen aircraft. I could be wrong though.



That included "New interiors" but again, here's the direct quote from RA

Quote:
We need to get back into the mode of growing the airline so we’ll increase ASMs (Available Seat Miles)
slightly this year. It may not seem like much on a percentage basis but on a base of 1,400 aircraft with the
schedule we fly it is a significant increase.
We will continue to buy MD-90s because we can purchase four fresh MD-90s with new interiors for the
cost of one new 737-800.



I'm near certain the number includes total acquisition costs. Interiors, MTC work, etc.
What gets measured gets done.
 
United1
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:18 pm

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 230):
Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 228):
Quoting flyabr (Reply 227):
I know the DC-9 was certified to 100,000 cycles...does anybody know what the 717/MD-90 are certified for?

60,000 cycles.
Quoting flyabr (Reply 229):
Wow...why the big difference between the original and these derivatives?

Yeah, no kidding. Why the difference? Did they give up some durability in favor of lighter weight perhaps?

The DC-9 originally wasn't certified to 100K and has over the years gotten a few increases so it could keep operating. As the 717/MD-90 age if anyone is interested in operating them past 60K they can ask Boeing to certify them past 60K...its simply a matter of $$$$$$ and some inspections.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
milesrich
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:30 pm

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 231):
Republic had at one time via Southern the #3 DC-9-10 off the line that went to Delta. It was DL first DC-9-10 IIRC.

Southern purchased the entire Delta DC-9-14 fleet, except the one destroyed at GSW-ACF in a training accident after getting caught in the turbulence of an American DC-10 also on a training flight.
 
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enilria
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting n7371f (Thread starter):
Coming out of the International Society of Transport Aircraft Trading Americas (ISTAT) is word that Delta has a deal in place to take AirTran's 717's. The conference is in Scottsdale...and now seeing a few follow on tweets about this.
Quoting B757forever (Reply 221):
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 211):
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 211):
I'm starting to get suspicious of this rumor, or at least think it was oversold... if a firm deal was actually reached, I think we would have had word of it by now.

You will most likely hear something official around the April-May timeframe, not much sooner.

I've had WN people tell me they have been in negotiations recently on the topic. DL recently deferred retiring some DC-9s and WN is not slowing the wind-down of AirTran thanks to the code share meltdown, so there are still some timing issues out there. I do not believe that a 717 will ever fly under the WN operator code. They are saying this merger will take "years". That's enough time to complete a transition.
 
bobnwa
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:44 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 210):
Not sure why we are even having this conversation about PTV systems on rumored 717s.


We are having this discussion because a certain Anet member brings up AVOD on every thread regardless of the subject.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:39 pm

Quoting n7371f (Reply 194):
It came up during a discussion at the Scottsdale conference and was uttered by an aircraft leasing executive to a newspaper reporter, Holly Hegeman (who I think may have been the tweeter) and a few others. I got a text about it shortly before Holly mentioned it.

As to whether it's really true, I don't know. The people I know in Delta keep dwindling as the former NWA folks move on and my friends left there simply don't know one way or another. However, take a look at my previous post about DL departments running numbers on the 717 -- and even more so now, the no comments from Gary and Ed.

Yeah, it would be interesting to know more about the context of this statement and why it came up, and the motive for "planned/unplanned leaking" of said rumor. I don't really understand the social media aspect of "tweeting" this information either. I guess it is a way to "leak" rumors or information somewhat off the record?

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 211):
I'm starting to get suspicious of this rumor, or at least think it was oversold... if a firm deal was actually reached, I think we would have had word of it by now.

I can go both ways on this. The rumor is hot enough with enough circumstancial evidence that it seems believable.
The corporate non-speak and "no-comment" but "we are looking at every deal" from both WN and DL is very interesting and certainly eludes to the fact that there has been some discussions on the matter.

My instinct says that this is not a done deal, but they are pretty far along in discussions.

Quoting clemsonaj (Reply 212):
Not necessarily. Good news is usually announced at the beginning of the week to have to most positive effect on the stock price. I would say if true it will hit the press Monday or Tuesday.

This is really an urban legend.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 221):
You will most likely hear something official around the April-May timeframe, not much sooner.

Sounds plausable. It will be very interesting to see if the timing could align with the Q1 earnings release. If there is no news by then, you can be sure there will be a lot of questions from the analysts on the earnings conference call which will likely be responded to with a lot of corporate "non-speak"

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 222):
That doesn't square with the requirement that the company file an 8-K within 4 days of entering into a material definitive agreement. An agreement to acquire 88 717s is most definitely a material definitive agreement. If no 8-K gets filed, I can only assume the agreement is not actually final yet.

Right. The deal is not final. Therefore they do not need to have an 8-K filing.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 223):
Agreed. Being very far along and being finalized are entirely different. The 717 deal for DL is very far along.

Right. With so many parties involved and groups within DL and WN having to do analysis, this like any major project takes time to perform the due-dilligence and negotiate the deal.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 224):
That is correct. Earlier someone opined that the first batch of 320's NW took had a lot of life left in them which really isn't true. Heck NW had several of them broken up during the bankruptcy...and it's generally a given that the Airbus narrowbodies don't have quite as long a life in service as the Boeing's.

Right. NW (and DL) flew the A320s pretty hard too. They've done a lot of high-cycle flying over the years. Plus, the overalls for such aircraft become quite expensive as they age.

Quoting United1 (Reply 235):
The DC-9 originally wasn't certified to 100K and has over the years gotten a few increases so it could keep operating. As the 717/MD-90 age if anyone is interested in operating them past 60K they can ask Boeing to certify them past 60K...its simply a matter of $$$$$$ and some inspections.

Right. The certification limits increase as the airframes get older and Boeing has more data available to determine how the model ages and how to update the maintenance programs.
 
timf
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:59 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 237):
I've had WN people tell me they have been in negotiations recently on the topic. DL recently deferred retiring some DC-9s and WN is not slowing the wind-down of AirTran thanks to the code share meltdown, so there are still some timing issues out there. I do not believe that a 717 will ever fly under the WN operator code. They are saying this merger will take "years". That's enough time to complete a transition.

The last official plan I can recall being discussed was for WN to start converting 717s from FL to WN operations starting in early 2013 at a rate of a couple per month. I expect this is still the plan, only now instead of converting them to WN they will be shipping them off to DL. The entire process will take 3-4 years, which is why WN says they will continue operating 717s for "years". They just will continue to be operated as FL.
 
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enilria
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:10 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 239):
Quoting clemsonaj (Reply 212):
Not necessarily. Good news is usually announced at the beginning of the week to have to most positive effect on the stock price. I would say if true it will hit the press Monday or Tuesday.

This is really an urban legend.

Not true. Most press announcements are Tue/Wed for coverage the following day. Things you want to hide are released on Friday afternoon. Any PR person will tell you that. It is standard media manipulation.

Quoting timf (Reply 240):
WN to start converting 717s from FL to WN operations starting in early 2013 at a rate of a couple per month. I expect this is still the plan,

All A/C transitions out of FL are on hold until the code share is completed and it has no date for completion as of now.
 
deltal1011man
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 239):

Yeah, it would be interesting to know more about the context of this statement and why it came up, and the motive for "planned/unplanned leaking" of said rumor. I don't really understand the social media aspect of "tweeting" this information either. I guess it is a way to "leak" rumors or information somewhat off the record?

no need for a PR when you can say it in 140 letters. This is pretty much the new thing.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 239):
This is really an urban legend.

not really.
 
packcheer
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 239):
This is really an urban legend.

That may be true, but having just finished my master's degree in the last two years, I can tell you that all of the PR classes I took, this theory was very strong.

Good news at the beginning of the week to get the most mileage and awareness out of it,

Bad news before the weekend, or even during the weekend, so that the news cycle may not catch it as strongly as mid week news.
Things that fly, Girls and Planes...
 
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seabosdca
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 239):
you can be sure there will be a lot of questions from the analysts on the earnings conference call which will likely be responded to with a lot of corporate "non-speak"

To work in corporate PR, you have to become very skilled in the fine art of using many upbeat, positive words to communicate no substantive information whatsoever.  
 
n7371f
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:48 pm

In an attempt to try and wrap around, or button up, this discussion there are a couple of points I want to make that I think are pertinent...

Understand the dynamics at play here. You have Boeing and its leasing subsidiary, Boeing Capital, holding the papers on nearly the entire AirTran 717 fleet. The 717's at one point made up more than half of Capital's portfolio and revenue.

Boeing's most important customer for the 737Max, Southwest, now owns AirTran. Southwest has decided it doesn't want the 717's and instead wants to further develop the fleet with more 737NG's and Max's. Boeing Capital has already agreed to millions of dollars in lease rate reductions to appease Southwest. And to make sure the Boeing/Southwest relationship remains as strong as ever, Boeing and Capital are willing to assist Southwest in trying to take as many 717's off their hands as possible.

Then there's Delta, an airline with the DNA of Northwest, who keenly knows how to better the fleet through smart, second hand acquisitions. Delta has lower operating costs on short-haul missions than Southwest but doesn't have a sufficient fleet for the flying. The 717 would fit this need. Remember that a good part of Delta's domestic network retains Northwest's flying which was heavily suited for the DC-9-30 flying. Additionally Delta is a major Boeing customer and it can take advantage of that to negotiate very favorable lease terms for the 717's or purchase rates for that matter. Delta can also leverage the situation by getting better engine maintenance guarantees from Boeing and Rolls. Delta is able to buy and/or lease the lift it had sought with requests to Bombardier and Embraer for a fraction of the cost. Anyone else now see why Delta make have pulled the RFP for the smaller narrowbodies?

And in the end, Boeing ends up happy because not only has it made two of its best customers happy, it has solved the re-marketing of scores of 717's in one fellow scoop.

The whole scenario sets up perfectly - the timing, the wants and needs of all 3 parties and so forth. That doesn't mean this is a slam dunk deal but all indications are an agreement is close or even a deal in principal is in place.
 
B757Forever
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:51 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 245):
In an attempt to try and wrap around, or button up, this discussion there are a couple of points I want to make that I think are pertinent...

Well said! Excellent synopsis of the proposed transaction...now lets wait and see.  
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
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RWA380
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:26 am

Quoting litz (Reply 1):
... If this were to happen, would they then become the first - and the only - operator to concurrently operate the DC9, MD80, MD90, and 717/MD95?)

Other than Russian built planes, what jet age aircraft hasn't DL operated, 707's & A340's?... They have operated DC-8's, DC-9's, DC-10's, MD-11's, 727's, 737's, 747's, 757's, 767's, 777's, L-1011's now 717's. A-310's, A320's, A330's
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
B757Forever
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:37 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 247):
Other than Russian built planes, what jet age aircraft hasn't DL operated, 707's & A340's?...

Remarkably, no Comets, Mercures or Caravelles were ever operated.  
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
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treebeard787
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 247):
Other than Russian built planes, what jet age aircraft hasn't DL operated, 707's & A340's?... They have operated DC-8's, DC-9's, DC-10's, MD-11's, 727's, 737's, 747's, 757's, 767's, 777's, L-1011's now 717's. A-310's, A320's, A330's

Don't forget they operated Convair CV-880s too.
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