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ac7e7
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
That's fine with me. But I was out on the street with some Aveos chaps this Tuesday when the riot police came to move the protesters from blocking AC HQ access in YUL. I don't work for AC, mind you, I was just there for solidarity. I don't think that most guys in their 50s with 20 to 30 years in would agree with you. I dare you to walk up to them and convince that life is going to be better now that then can get themselves a real job.

These guys should not be wasting their time protesting. If they have families to feed, their time is better used hunting for a new job then preventing others from attending their's.

Besides, shouldn't these employees be protesting Aveos management? Typical that they blame Air Canada. AC sent 91% of their major work to Aveos and they still went belly up. Air Canada is easy to blame, but I think Aveos management is getting off easy by employees considering they could not diversify their customer base, and reduce costs.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
You know what? He's right. Do you know who WS has on their board of Directors? drum roll please.... a Flight attendant. His name is Antonio Faiola. He has been an active member of WestJet's Pro-Active Communications Team (PACT), WestJet's employee representation, through the Flight Attendant Association Board since 2003. In 2008, Antonio moved into the role of FAAB Vice-Chair before being elected as FAAB Chair in 2009. Antonio was elected PACT Chairman in November 2011 and joined the Board of Directors shortly after as WestJet’s PACT representative.

The unions are full of money. They can buy themselves a seat on the board of directors if they want. Problem with that is they couldn't blame management anymore since they would be part of them. Unions are not in the business of running a business (other then their own). They are in in for union dues and fighting management at every opportunity.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
Maybe if AC had an ACPA, a CUPE, a CAW or an IAMAW representative on their Board of Directors thwy wouldn't be that far apart.

Correct, they would be carving up every bit of the airlines operating revenues to distribute to employees until the airline could no longer operate. Then they would run to the government for more money. Reminds me of the mafia.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
Have you tried to feed a family and put your kids through college while loading bags in the pit of E190 at -22 Deg on a Friday night at 23h30 making 12$ an hour? You think that it's fair? You think that's what they should be making? So that me and you can drink some Margaritas in an All-Inclusive in Cancun for a week? I would really like to know what's your line of work...

So don't do it. I would advise this employee to find another job. This is what the market is paying for this type of work. Obviously there are many applicants. If there wasn't, the airline might try raising the wage. What is a fair wage? $13? $18? $115? Whatever the number is, I can tell you, is never enough because unions and their supporters will continue to float the "Well, Milton and Rovinescu are making a billion dollars, so should we...

Your arguments are littered with comments of entitlement. None of these workers are entitled to anything except to be paid the wage agreed upon in their contract in return for the agreed upon number of work hours.
 
PHX787
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 100):
Your arguments are littered with comments of entitlement. None of these workers are entitled to anything except to be paid the wage agreed upon in their contract in return for the agreed upon number of work hours.

Finally! somebody gets it.

This thread is also littered with politics and too many biased opinions based off of where people are in life, instead of the facts.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:12 pm

Quoting swissy (Reply 98):
You are missing my point... if you cannot make a living @ 10.20 an hr. then you should work somewhere else...

You're loading bags...not nuclear missile payloads. Put bags on...take bags off...did I miss anything? What wage should they be making for that?

I've had 12 buck an hour jobs...and they suck. You can't live on that. So I packed up my stuff and moved to where I could make a proper wage.

There are lots of well paying jobs in Canada which require little more than a pulse as a prerequisite. My nephew went right from high school to making over 50 grand a year, full benefits working 2 weeks on, 1 week off. Lots more of those jobs around. There is no age requirement either.

Loading bags will never, ever pay a wage good enough to raise a family...unless you really want to live with a bunch or roommates...and it shouldn't. It is unskilled labour...and even then, there are way better unskilled labour jobs around. Tim Horton's is paying up to 14 bucks an hour to pour coffee.

Striking never makes the money back which is lost to the strike itself. The problem is, people don't want to have to move. It doesn't matter what the CEO makes...he's always going to make more than the guys on the bottom...so will his earning a few million less mean significantly more money in the pockets of workers? No it won't.

It's the same thing every time; the CEO is getting rich and everyone else is getting poor. Conditions are unfair. The company is screwing the workers. Why would any sane person not only tolerate that, but keep coming back year, after year, after year?

Look after yourselves. If the company sucks that badly, why work for them? If you are worth more, go to where you can get that wage. Why continue to support a company that obviously doesn't appreciate you? Take your skills and walk.

If the job doesn't meet your standards, get another job. If this is the only job you're qualified for, you better get used to it, because you're screwed.
What the...?
 
A346Dude
Posts: 1161
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
Have you tried to feed a family and put your kids through college while loading bags in the pit of E190 at -22 Deg on a Friday night at 23h30 making 12$ an hour? You think that it's fair?

Having kids and putting them through college is not a right.

BTW I am a very junior rampie, and I would rather load that pit than work in an office any day of the week.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
yyzacguy
Posts: 132
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:27 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 102):

You're loading bags...not nuclear missile payloads. Put bags on...take bags off...did I miss anything? What wage should they be making for that?

Just Loading bags Is that all, How about making sure those bags are in the proper place and correct location so the planes weight and balance is good, Or making sure the containers are LOADED and LOCKED properly then we handle all kinds of dangerous good and have to get retrained every 2 years, we handle dead bodies ARE YOU SURE WE JUST LOAD BAGS . How about the walkarounds to make sure YOUR AIRPLANE is safe to fly How about servicing the washroom filling the plane with water, working around airplanes worth millions. We dont work in a heated office or AC, It rains shine snows we are out there 0 degrees -40 we are out in the rain snow we are working all to make sure your flight arrives on time and leave on time and YOU LOOK AT US JUST LOADING BAGS. If it was just LOADING BAGS JOE the course would not take 5 weeks training, You would not need a passing mark of 80%. I been doing it for 12 years and its not JUST LOADING BAGS I AM SORRY.
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idjim319
Posts: 60
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:03 am

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 100):
I would advise this employee to find another job. This is what the market is paying for this type of work. Obviously there are many applicants. If there wasn't, the airline might try raising the wage. What is a fair wage? $13? $18? $115? Whatever the number is, I can tell you, is never enough because unions and their supporters will continue to float the "Well, Milton and Rovinescu are making a billion dollars, so should we...

Your arguments are littered with comments of entitlement. None of these workers are entitled to anything except to be paid the wage agreed upon in their contract in return for the agreed upon number of work hours.
Quoting yyzacguy (Reply 104):
You're loading bags...not nuclear missile payloads. Put bags on...take bags off...did I miss anything? What wage should they be making for that?

Just Loading bags Is that all, How about making sure those bags are in the proper place and correct location so the planes weight and balance is good, Or making sure the containers are LOADED and LOCKED properly then we handle all kinds of dangerous good and have to get retrained every 2 years, we handle dead bodies ARE YOU SURE WE JUST LOAD BAGS . How about the walkarounds to make sure YOUR AIRPLANE is safe to fly How about servicing the washroom filling the plane with water, working around airplanes worth millions. We dont work in a heated office or AC, It rains shine snows we are out there 0 degrees -40 we are out in the rain snow we are working all to make sure your flight arrives on time and leave on time and YOU LOOK AT US JUST LOADING BAGS. If it was just LOADING BAGS JOE the course would not take 5 weeks training, You would not need a passing mark of 80%. I been doing it for 12 years and its not JUST LOADING BAGS I AM SORR

It is amazing how much this gang does not see that this is not difficult work. It really isn't. Really....load bags and containers correctly? Training for 5 weeks for how many grand....50k? Well I went to university for 8 YEARS. I don't make anywhere that proportion of way. According to your ideas about training ...... I should make $570k a year based on training for doing what I need to do to go to work. Wow! You really have no idea. Oh sorry, by the way, I paid for that 8 years, did you pay for your whole strenuous 5 WEEKS!
 
idjim319
Posts: 60
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:06 am

Quoting yyzacguy (Reply 104):
If it was just LOADING BAGS JOE the course would not take 5 weeks training, You would not need a passing mark of 80%. I been doing it for 12 years and its not JUST LOADING BAGS I AM SORRY.

My it must be challenging. Don't ever stress yourself.
 
lnglive1011yyz
Topic Author
Posts: 1502
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:18 am

Quoting yyzacguy (Reply 104):
e course would not take 5 weeks training, You would not need a passing mark of 80%. I been doing it for 12 years and its not JUST LOADING BAGS I AM SORRY.

Ready for a reality check? It *is* just loading the aircraft. Does it come with some serious responsibility? Of course it does. So does flying the plane, or maintaining it, or planning the flight plan and cost models. EVERY role at a company is important to it's success, including YOUR job man.

I was a Dangerous Goods Specialist for a major package company for 5 years, and I had weeks-long courses that I needed to go to to be able to do the job every year. Did I get an extra payment for handling the potentially dangerous shipments? No. But, that extra responsibility brought me some great knowledge and business smarts that I never would have received had I not VOLUNTEERED for the role, and instead of demanding more money ever year, I took the experience and learned from it. When a non unionized position came available, they actually sought *ME* out for the job because I had gone above and beyond in trying something new.

Do I think that rampies are slackers and NOT worth the money they get paid? No. I believe that they are probably among some of the hardest workers AT an Airline (when you talk about "hardest", I'm referring to physical workload). The issue that we have in MOST unionized workplaces is that many Unionized positions have negotiated for DECADES unrealistic and way-above-scale $ hourly wages that are NOW really seriously impacting many North American businesses. When there isn't much money to go around, how can you expect a huge increase?

Why do you think that most of the businesses in North America outsource to other cheaper nations? It's simple - companies want to make more profit and to do that, they have to find a way to save money somewhere. Salaries and employee's are the easiest place to look to cut costs. Decades of unrealistic wage increases in both unionized and non-unionized positions have caused the huge rise in inflation that has brought us to this unworkable situation our countries are in now.

However, conversely, without unions, we wouldn't have some of the Workers Rights legislation we have today.

You have a choice to work there or not - someone here hit the nail on the head - you are paid a wage to do the job outlined in your contract, and nothing more. If you don't like the wages you are being paid, go back to school, become a business professional, and make more money.

I haven't had a proper increase in about 3 years. My company is making money, but not hand over fist. I trust that the company will reward us with proper increases when the company starts to do well. If I don't like the pay, I have the right to move on.

That's the way the world works. It's NOT going to change.

What will be sad, is IF AC does go bankrupt, and all these jobs are outsourced, these people end up loosing their jobs because they wanted to "show the company that without us, it wouldn't run". -- THAT is the common Union message I hear from many many different union jobs I run into.

Guess what.. If the CEO can be replaced, so can the unionized worker.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
hoons90
Posts: 3638
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:19 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 105):
It is amazing how much this gang does not see that this is not difficult work. It really isn't. Really....load bags and containers correctly? Training for 5 weeks for how many grand....50k? Well I went to university for 8 YEARS. I don't make anywhere that proportion of way. According to your ideas about training ...... I should make $570k a year based on training for doing what I need to do to go to work. Wow! You really have no idea. Oh sorry, by the way, I paid for that 8 years, did you pay for your whole strenuous 5 WEEKS!

I'm speaking as someone that goes to U of T St. George (as a third year student) and also has experience working on the ramp, and I'll tell you that working on the ramp isn't as easy as it seems. When you're out there, you could be working in a very confusing environment with all sorts of heavy equipment driving around, and sometimes it can also be very hard to communicate with your colleagues due to the noise. OJIs happen all the time, some of them fatal.

Driving a container loader and pushback tractor is not like driving your car at all. One slip of the foot and you could cause millions of dollars worth of damage. Just imagine the pressure.

During a rainy or snowy day, you could be climbing onto the belt loader to access the bulk hold of a 777 and slip and fall a dozen feet. Even with precautions, it can happen very easily.

Ramp workers who have been there for several years have significant hearing loss and permanent back injuries. You cannot put a price on your own health.

I definitely agree with YYZACGUY, the job is way more than just loading and offloading bags.
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lnglive1011yyz
Topic Author
Posts: 1502
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:27 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 108):
I definitely agree with YYZACGUY, the job is way more than just loading and offloading bags.

I don't think anyone doubts that it's hard work, or that it comes with serious responsibility, but most jobs do.

The guy working the grill at McDonalds has to make sure that all the meat is thoroughly cooked, or people can die.

However, I think part of the problem is the sense of entitlement that the union workers seem to be spewing. The biggest downfall of Unionized environments is the right to walk off the job. All that does is make things worse, it doesn't make things better. They know they can walk off the job and wreck havoc.

As a non-unionized employee, I can't walk off my job. Know why? Reality. Reality is that there are 200 people knocking at my employers door who want to take my job when it becomes open. Unfortunately, I think it's a very common thing that Unionized employees forget what reality is like because they hide behind the protection of the union.

Nowadays, companies are just getting smarter. Union won't accept? Okay. Eliminate the positions and outsource it to save money. Simple as that.

Again, I think there is a lot responsibility than just loading the plane.. but.. that IS all it is.. Loading the aircraft.. they didn't DESIGN the aircraft.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:31 am

Quoting yyzacguy (Reply 104):

I've never passed a test with less than 80% and that includes my pilot's license. I've worked outside at -40 arming perforating guns with explosives. I've worked offshore in temps of +55 with 95% humidity working with not just explosives, but pressures and H2S levels that are so toxic, people die if I screw up.

I've handled almost every kind of dangerous goods possible, and I know what it takes to make them safe for transport.

What I don't do is blame anyone else for me choosing to do that job. If the pay isn't quite up to your standards, get another job. Don't blame me or anyone else for you staying with a job that you obviously feel isn't paying you for what you're worth.

If someone is willing to do your job for 12 bucks an hour, it's a 12 buck an hour job. If you want to keep that job, don't expect a whole lot of raises.

There is a maximum amount a job is worth regardless of ones time at the job. After 12 years, you're probably maxed out. If you want to keep doing that work, it's entirely your choice. I choose not to work for companies that are attempting to screw me over. If you wish to, again, it's your choice.
What the...?
 
kfitz
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:47 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:31 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 105):

It is physically demanding, often times dangerous work. Until you've been down on a ramp to observe firsthand I eon't find it appropriate to make sweeping generalized statements like this.
 
hoons90
Posts: 3638
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:35 am

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 109):
I don't think anyone doubts that it's hard work, or that it comes with serious responsibility, but most jobs do.

I think that some people do:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 102):
You're loading bags...not nuclear missile payloads. Put bags on...take bags off...did I miss anything? What wage should they be making for that?
Quoting idjim319 (Reply 105):
It is amazing how much this gang does not see that this is not difficult work. It really isn't.
Quoting idjim319 (Reply 106):
My it must be challenging. Don't ever stress yourself.
Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 109):
However, I think part of the problem is the sense of entitlement that the union workers seem to be spewing. The biggest downfall of Unionized environments is the right to walk off the job. All that does is make things worse, it doesn't make things better. They know they can walk off the job and wreck havoc.

As a non-unionized employee, I can't walk off my job. Know why? Reality. Reality is that there are 200 people knocking at my employers door who want to take my job when it becomes open. Unfortunately, I think it's a very common thing that Unionized employees forget what reality is like because they hide behind the protection of the union.

I can understand where you're coming from, but at the end of the day, the right to assemble, bargain collectively and strike is a fundamental right of any democratic and free society, whether you like it or not. What the AC workers did yesterday was illegal indeed, but the government shouldn't have stepped in to prevent them from striking in the first place.
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StarAC17
Posts: 3775
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:02 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 17):
Would instantly terminating employment of those involved in this wildcat strike send the correct message to other Air Canada employees?

Good luck doing that in a union environment unless you can justifty cause and if this is the first offence of the employees then suspending them is the right course of action.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 70):
Ever wondered why you don't ear any issues of that magnitude at WJ for example? Maybe because management actually cares? How come the employees, even when paid less, agree to be more productive? Maybe because they feel good about themselves, because management actually give a "#$% about them and rewards and values employees going above and beyond?

Management deserves the union they get, treat employees with common decency and not people that are hindrances to the unlimited profits you desire and people won't want to collectively bargain.

Quoting swissy (Reply 73):
Neither I am... have not seen any union saving jobs... What about my rights? I have to travel to places and AC is MY partner helping me getting there... and what, just because of some clowns who have the freedom to work somewhere else if they do not like it at AC chose to screw everyone over because they have labour/personal issues???

Getting on a plane is not your right and if you have a ticket and there is a labour stoppage other airlines if possible will honour the ticket or it will be refunded.

If you deem air transport as an essential service then tell AC's management to negotiate a "No strike clause" with it's unions such as what police, nurses, and fire-fighters have.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 75):
That said, unless you were flying AC to one of those AC-only destinations, you made a choice. You have a right to make a choice. You don't have the right to expect the choice to work out regardless of the circumstances. In AC's case, the circumstances have been known for months now.

That is also what cancellation and disruption insurance protects against.

Quoting AY104 (Reply 86):
"We can't continue to have government interfering in these ways and breaking the backs of unions. This is about workers' rights, and I totally support this. If I have to wait in this airport for 10 hours for my luggage, so be it."

If a lot of Canadians think this way then Harper's majority will be short-lived and this is supposed to be the party that says to private corporations "Sink or swim" and we will stay out of it. I would expect this from the NDP but ironically they are most likely to stay out if nothing was done illegally.
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lnglive1011yyz
Topic Author
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:03 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 112):
What the AC workers did yesterday was illegal indeed, but the government shouldn't have stepped in to prevent them from striking in the first place.

With that, I do agree.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
idjim319
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:52 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:36 am

Quoting kfitz (Reply 111):
It is physically demanding, often times dangerous work. Until you've been down on a ramp to observe firsthand I eon't find it appropriate to make sweeping generalized statements like this.

Oh dear. Sorry I upset you but most of us in the real world do things that are tricky and have consequences. You don't actually think loading bags or pallets in an airplane is that tough do you? There are SOPs. Thats all you need to to know. Finish high school, finish the class at AC, follow the script and have a job for life....is this that challenging?

Excuse me but when exactly did you have to shell out for your training?

Dangerous work you say? Follow the SOPs and keep your job in perspective.
 
idjim319
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:52 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:45 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 112):
What the AC workers did yesterday was illegal indeed, but the government shouldn't have stepped in to prevent them from striking in the first place.

Why? Exactly why? These unions at AC continue to show that they do what they want. They elect a leadership who bargains (in apparently .... well that is questionable) in good faith. THe membership turns them down. THey choose a new leadership and then they do it again.

Sorry no. This is not fair to the anyone involved especially the customers. The government can absolutely and should step in to protect the union from the babbling idiot of fools who calls themselves a union leadership. They have completely lost grip and AC's management's only job should be seeing the back of them.

Sorry unions at AC. You lost all of your credibility and should be allowed/forced to dismantle. As Canadians we have no need of you. You delivery bad, bad service.
 
hoons90
Posts: 3638
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:56 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 115):
Oh dear. Sorry I upset you but most of us in the real world do things that are tricky and have consequences.

Still doesn't make it an easy job as you portray it to be.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 115):
You don't actually think loading bags or pallets in an airplane is that tough do you?

It can be, especially when the power drives in the cargo hold don't work (which happens quite often).

Loading bags can be tough too, especially if it's an Embraer 190 bound for YMM or anywhere in the Caribbean. Doing this once or twice may seem easy, but try doing this for years and see how it affects your body.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 115):
There are SOPs. Thats all you need to to know.

SOPs can't protect you from all of the dangers that come with this job.
Reading and memorizing SOPs are actually a very small part of the training process at AC, most of the training for ramp is hands-on. The work environment is rather volatile and things change constantly. Sometimes, SOPs can get amended twice on the same day.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 115):
Excuse me but when exactly did you have to shell out for your training?

I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion of the dangers and risks that ramp workers face in their work.
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hoons90
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:02 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 116):
Why?

Because it's a fundamental right.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 116):
This is not fair to the anyone involved especially the customers. The government can absolutely and should step in to protect the union from the babbling idiot of fools who calls themselves a union leadership. They have completely lost grip and AC's management's only job should be seeing the back of them.

Sorry unions at AC. You lost all of your credibility and should be allowed/forced to dismantle. As Canadians we have no need of you. You delivery bad, bad service.

The government has no business interfering in someone's endeavors in exercising what is a fundamental human right in this free and democratic society.
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idjim319
Posts: 60
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:07 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 117):
Still doesn't make it an easy job as you portray it to be.
Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 117):
It can be, especially when the power drives in the cargo hold don't work (which happens quite often)

Dude! Get yourself in check and grab some perspective! If you really believe your job is that tricky then you maybe need to branch out in the world!

Oh my! There are plenty of jobs who pay far less for your work stresses.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 117):
SOPs are actually a very small part of the training process at AC, most of the training for ramp is hands-on. The work environment is rather volatile and things change constantly. Sometimes, SOPs can get amended twice on the same day.

Oh my. Can't you keep up with this? This is not too much to take in the professional world. If you expect a decent salary then keep up. This is nothing you shouldn't be able to handle if you demand a salary in the scope of yours.
.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 117):
Loading bags can be tough too, especially if it's an Embraer 190 bound for YMM or anywhere in the Caribbean.

I'm sorry. Didn't you apply and accept a position at the airline? I'm sorry pussycat but this isn't a play date. Maybe you forgot the pay check you accept every month. Please decline the pay check in the form of quitting.....
 
idjim319
Posts: 60
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:12 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 118):
The government has no business interfering in someone's endeavors in exercising what is a fundamental human right in this free and democratic society.

Except my good man, there you are wrong. The government has right on the behalf of its citizens to act in a way to protect the majority and within the rules of law. And thank god they have.

THey have absolute right to interfere in this stupid self belief of striking. Your union are a band of fools and I totally agree with the Minister's right to intervene. I only hop she finds a way to scrap these unions full stop as they serve no purpose but a few lazy people.
 
hoons90
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RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:17 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 119):
Dude! Get yourself in check and grab some perspective! If you really believe your job is that tricky then you maybe need to branch out in the world!

I thought the same way you did until I actually started working on the ramp. Any opinion that you may have about this job can only be assumptive, unless you actually have first hand experience.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 119):

Oh my. Can't you keep up with this? This is not too much to take in the professional world. If you expect a decent salary then keep up. This is nothing you shouldn't be able to handle if you demand a salary in the scope of yours.

Again, you're being rather assumptive here. You can't compare the work environment of an office to one on the ramp. It's a whole different world and it's very easy to become disoriented.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 119):
I'm sorry. Didn't you apply and accept a position at the airline? I'm sorry pussycat but this isn't a play date. Maybe you forgot the pay check you accept every month. Please decline the pay check in the form of quitting.....

I no longer work at the company. I'll focus on going to school and maintaining my 3.5 GPA at U of T, because I think that's much less stressful than working on the ramp.
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hoons90
Posts: 3638
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:22 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 120):
Except my good man, there you are wrong. The government has right on the behalf of its citizens to act in a way to protect the majority and within the rules of law. And thank god they have.

Erosion of fundamental human rights can't be a good thing for Canadians in the long term.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 120):
THey have absolute right to interfere in this stupid self belief of striking. Your union are a band of fools and I totally agree with the Minister's right to intervene. I only hop she finds a way to scrap these unions full stop as they serve no purpose but a few lazy people.

It's perfectly reasonable to disagree with the union's stance, or the cause that the union is fighting for. However, the right to strike is, by definition, a right. This is indisputable, and is something that is more in need of protection than someone's vacation plan.
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StarAC17
Posts: 3775
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:29 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 120):
THey have absolute right to interfere in this stupid self belief of striking. Your union are a band of fools and I totally agree with the Minister's right to intervene. I only hop she finds a way to scrap these unions full stop as they serve no purpose but a few lazy people.

They take away this right then another and then another and soon enough you have a dictatorship on your hands. If you are going to f*ck around with freedom of speech and expression rights which this is very much of an issue of then expect the consequences when it affects you!!

If AC operating trumps a strike or a lockout which is legal then the government should buy it back and operate it themselves.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 120):
I only hop she finds a way to scrap these unions full stop as they serve no purpose but a few lazy people.

It's not the government's business to bust a union or outlaw unless it represents government workers and AC's unions do not. Also look down South and see how well that technique worked for gov. Scott Walker in Wisconsin.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
idjim319
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:52 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:29 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 121):
I thought the same way you did until I actually started working on the ramp. Any opinion that you may have about this job can only be assumptive, unless you actually have first hand experience.
Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 121):
no longer work at the company. I'll focus on going to school and maintaining my 3.5 GPA at U of T, because I think that's much less stressful than working on the ramp.

Ahhh good. That is fine then. I hope you take an economics course at u of t in your studies. At that point you'll actually learn the supply and demand curve and then you'll learn about market distortion... please note the lecture on unions.

Sorry dude, you marks are not impressive as most intelligent people score above that. Please don't quote them.

I don't care if it is hard or not to load a plane. I really don't. The simple. Fundamental. Universal. Fact.....It has been said over and over. QUIT IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT. Why is this so challenging???

I actually did it myself and now have doubled the salary! I actually quit because I didn't like it. Until people do this then I have no faith in their cause.

Sorry....I prefer to fly efficiently, on time, with clean cabin environment, with my bags on time, then deal with mindless underwork fools who think they have a tough time at work. Give me a great, big, giant break! You are doing work for a salary it took me paying for years in tuition in university to achieve. I have absolutely no sadness for you pulling the I have stress at work card on me. Get REAL!
 
tonystan
Posts: 1696
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:37 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
QUIT IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT.

What an ignorant comment!

Maybe they do like it, maybe they enjoy their job but maybe, JUST MAYBE...They are sick of having overpaid execs come along and demand they do their job for a lot less, without all the tools and with less time to spend with their family "Just cos someone else does it cheaper elsewhere"!!!!!!

I am not a fan of unions....but I understand their importance. Lets face it, if any large organisation could, we would still have children working as labour...but im sure to the economist that is a great idea, they fit into those baggage holds a lot easier!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
hoons90
Posts: 3638
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:42 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
Ahhh good. That is fine then. I hope you take an economics course at u of t in your studies. At that point you'll actually learn the supply and demand curve and then you'll learn about market distortion... please note the lecture on unions.

Not sure what this has to do with the discussion on hand--the dangers of the ramp environment.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
Sorry dude, you marks are not impressive as most intelligent people score above that. Please don't quote them.

Leaving the condescension aside, hey, it's a tough school. At least I can still get into grad school with that.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
I don't care if it is hard or not to load a plane. I really don't. The simple. Fundamental. Universal. Fact.....It has been said over and over. QUIT IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT. Why is this so challenging???

I already know that I can quit a job if I don't like it. What I was challenging was your statement (or assumption, rather) that it wasn't a hard job. In that respect, you were wrong.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
Sorry....I prefer to fly efficiently, on time, with clean cabin environment, with my bags on time, then deal with mindless underwork fools who think they have a tough time at work. Give me a great, big, giant break! You are doing work for a salary it took me paying for years in tuition in university to achieve. I have absolutely no sadness for you pulling the I have stress at work card on me. Get REAL!

I care about those things too, but I'm not going to take away someone's fundamental human right for my own convenience.
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idjim319
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:52 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:43 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 122):
It's perfectly reasonable to disagree with the union's stance, or the cause that the union is fighting for. However, the right to strike is, by definition, a right. This is indisputable, and is something that is more in need of protection than someone's vacation plan.

I stop you there.

A union can strike. They can do whatever stupid things unions do. I challenge you completely on this airline's unions behaviour.

Rights come obligations. You cannot accept a right without accepting the subsequent obligation.

If you accept these rights, do you then accept not stranding parents in airplanes with children?. Do you also accept not causing deliberately one man to miss an interview --- the job of his life in Singapore. Do you also accept that you caused a family to miss their dear mama's funeral in Edinburgh? What about the family who were expecting family in Sao Paolo.

Sorry, but with your right, are you still willing to render that family's vacation hell. By the way, they went to OGG from YYC....they couldn't get home for days afterwards due to strike action.

Let's talk about the lady fly from YMM to India to go to her son's funeral. She missed it. Yup she did. SHe tried to find another way but she was caught up in YYC for 5 days. She couldn't afford to now fly to Dehli as her money was tied up.

There was a family. Dad worked at Walmart and mom at Shoppers. THey've been saving for 3 years to take their kids to Disneyworld for a family fun time on spring break. Oh, sorry AC is now on strike. How does that matter to a 5 and 7 year old???

Has this union environment lost complete tough of why they exist??? if it is for union membership then goodbye, i hope to god the government shuts you down.
 
kfitz
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:47 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:47 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 115):

Sorry, I find your comments both ignorant and demeaning. Real easy to sit there behind your computer monitor and illustrate some fantasy world, but the reality is you have zero firsthand knowledge of what the real requirements are.
 
hoons90
Posts: 3638
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:52 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 127):
Rights come obligations. You cannot accept a right without accepting the subsequent obligation.
If you accept these rights, do you then accept not stranding parents in airplanes with children?. Do you also accept not causing deliberately one man to miss an interview --- the job of his life in Singapore. Do you also accept that you caused a family to miss their dear mama's funeral in Edinburgh? What about the family who were expecting family in Sao Paolo.

If those are the ramifications of what is a legal strike, then the striking workers are not legally obligated to take responsibility for them.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 127):
Sorry, but with your right, are you still willing to render that family's vacation hell. By the way, they went to OGG from YYC....they couldn't get home for days afterwards due to strike action.

Nothing should come above what is legally defined as a human right. End of story.

If you want to avoid all of this, fly on WestJet or some other airline.
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idjim319
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:52 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:54 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 126):
Leaving the condescension aside, hey, it's a tough school. At least I can still get into grad school with that.

Then do. Nobody is stopping you.. whatever grad school you find that accepts your undergrad degree.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 125):
What an ignorant comment!

Maybe they do like it, maybe they enjoy their job but maybe, JUST MAYBE...They are sick of having overpaid execs come along and demand they do their job for a lot less, without all the tools and with less time to spend with their family "Just cos someone else does it cheaper elsewhere"!!!!!!

So find a better place. Is this hard to understand? Nobody is keeping you there. Are you so hopeless you can speake up with your feet? Its not an insult but a challenge....dude get your ass moving!!!


It is a reasonably simply thing. Apply, interview and accept the ramp position from AC. Do the job, accept the pay, do the job as required by the company, accept the pay. Is this too hard to follow.....

If you disagree, leave.

Why is this a tricky business for some mind's.
 
idjim319
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:52 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:09 am

Quoting kfitz (Reply 128):
Sorry, I find your comments both ignorant and demeaning. Real easy to sit there behind your computer monitor and illustrate some fantasy world, but the reality is you have zero firsthand knowledge of what the real requirements are.

Hmmm. Whatever. Do you thing you're on a company picnic? Real requirements? Good good man keep it in perspective? Get the right can in the right hold? You want to strike for that? it isn't that hard dude! My god it isn't that hard!!!

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 129):
Nothing should come above what is legally defined as a human right. End of story.

Human right? Are you for real?

Okay lets go there smart boy. Let's look at your "rights" at loading bags in a 767. Lets think

The UN deals with substantive rights about
a right to life
freedom from slavery
freedom from torture
right to a fair trial
freedom of speech
freedom of conscious, thought and religion
right debates.

Sorry my friend, your cause is simply a non event if you you want to go that route. Do you really thing your right is that big??? If you claim a right then you agree to obligations. IN you case I suggest the only thing we Canadians accept is a decent level of service,
 
kfitz
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:47 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:13 am

Many find those extreme views detached from any practical or moral reaity. Again, very easy to sit from afar and bark ones own generalized views of the labor landscape.
 
idjim319
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:52 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:15 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 129):
If you want to avoid all of this, fly on WestJet or some other airline.

Hello CBC, CTV, and anyone else. This is the labour of AC staff. If you want to avoid this......


Nice.

Lisa Raitt, Please liberate us all from this,

I shall post his over an over again.
 
hoons90
Posts: 3638
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:21 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 130):
So find a better place. Is this hard to understand? Nobody is keeping you there. Are you so hopeless you can speake up with your feet? Its not an insult but a challenge....dude get your ass moving!!!


It is a reasonably simply thing. Apply, interview and accept the ramp position from AC. Do the job, accept the pay, do the job as required by the company, accept the pay. Is this too hard to follow.....

If you disagree, leave.

Why is this a tricky business for some mind's.

Air Canada is headquartered and based in a country that guarantees basic human rights such as the right to assemble and strike, and are legally obligated to abide by them. If Air Canada doesn't like that, and doesn't want to respect the workers' legal right to strike, then perhaps they should just change their name and set up shop elsewhere.

It's a travesty that the government fails to observe what they have already established as human rights.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 131):
Human right? Are you for real?

Okay lets go there smart boy. Let's look at your "rights" at loading bags in a 767. Lets think

The UN deals with substantive rights about
a right to life
freedom from slavery
freedom from torture
right to a fair trial
freedom of speech
freedom of conscious, thought and religion
right debates.

You forgot Article 20, the freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

Canadian labor laws also define striking as a right.

I personally am not offended by the sarcastic "smart boy" comment, but I find it rather petty and unnecessary. Please have some respect for other users in the forum. Thanks.
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hoons90
Posts: 3638
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:22 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 133):

Hello CBC, CTV, and anyone else. This is the labour of AC staff. If you want to avoid this......

I do not work for Air Canada.
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idjim319
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:52 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:32 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 134):
a country that guarantees basic human rights such as the right to assemble and strike, and are legally obligated to abide by them. If Air Canada doesn't like that, and doesn't want to respect the workers' legal right to strike, then perhaps they should just change their name and set up shop elsewhere.

Nope no. you can claim your right and that's pretty fancy.

Go on strike.Please be resounding so we al know you mean it. I'm sure it is terribly fancy.

Anyhow, while you're feeling so clever, Westjet is now doing rather well. Their staff has bonus cheques and are quite happy. Oh, I understand they're happy and profitable. I believe, although I'm no a lawyer, they're achieving this all within the RIGHTS of their staff.

Please strike and lose you job. Anyone who does yet call west jet home looks forward to you leaving.

With love!
 
hoons90
Posts: 3638
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:38 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 136):
to strike, then perhaps they should just change their name and set up shop elsewhere.

Nope no. you can claim your right and that's pretty fancy.

Go on strike.Please be resounding so we al know you mean it. I'm sure it is terribly fancy.

Anyhow, while you're feeling so clever, Westjet is now doing rather well. Their staff has bonus cheques and are quite happy. Oh, I understand they're happy and profitable. I believe, although I'm no a lawyer, they're achieving this all within the RIGHTS of their staff.

Please strike and lose you job. Anyone who does yet call west jet home looks forward to you leaving.

With love!

Once again, I do not understand what you're trying to say here, seeing as I don't work for the company in question, and thus in no position to go on strike.

It's good that WestJet is achieving such success "within the rights of their staff". I guess that's a lot tougher at AC, but rights are rights.
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blue100
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:58 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:39 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 130):
So find a better place. Is this hard to understand? Nobody is keeping you there. Are you so hopeless you can speake up with your feet? Its not an insult but a challenge....dude get your ass moving!!!


It is a reasonably simply thing. Apply, interview and accept the ramp position from AC. Do the job, accept the pay, do the job as required by the company, accept the pay. Is this too hard to follow.....

If you disagree, leave.

Why is this a tricky business for some mind's.

First of all, it's in the best interest of an employer to negotiate with employees in good faith if they would like to avoid high turnover and the significant costs associated with it. But beyond that, is it really unreasonable for people to negotiate with their employers over wages? People negotiate all the time across all industries. In my opinion, if AC management had set the appropriate tone at the top (i.e not hand out multi-million dollar bonuses to executives, while running significant financial losses), I think you would see less bitterness from staff during the negotiating process. And as for this...

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 131):

Sorry my friend, your cause is simply a non event if you you want to go that route. Do you really thing your right is that big??? If you claim a right then you agree to obligations. IN you case I suggest the only thing we Canadians accept is a decent level of service,

I'd suggest referring to some historical and recent events such as the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire or the recent controversies involving Foxconn in Asia. While I agree that there are many unions that have lost their way, to say that the right to assemble / strike is a "non event" ignores the realities that existed in the past and still exist today in many parts of the world.
 
sbworcs
Posts: 813
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:42 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 113):
Management deserves the union they get,

And surely the Union members / leaders get the Management they deserve?
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3775
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:54 am

Quoting sbworcs (Reply 139):
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 113):
Management deserves the union they get,

And surely the Union members / leaders get the Management they deserve?

Absolutely!!

There can be militant management and unions.

[Edited 2012-03-25 02:16:20]
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
jamincan
Posts: 579
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 130):
So find a better place. Is this hard to understand? Nobody is keeping you there. Are you so hopeless you can speake up with your feet? Its not an insult but a challenge....dude get your ass moving!!!


It is a reasonably simply thing. Apply, interview and accept the ramp position from AC. Do the job, accept the pay, do the job as required by the company, accept the pay. Is this too hard to follow.....

If you disagree, leave.

Why is this a tricky business for some mind's.

That does seem a lot simpler for Air Canada, but unions exist for a reason. With unionized employees, Air Canada simply does not have the right to make such decisions unilaterally. They must negotiate contracts with the union, and if the union isn't pleased with what Air Canada is offering, they are entitled to collective action. You might find it frustrating and disagree with their position, but that's the way it works. Sorry that this seems too tricky for you to follow.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1933
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 116):
Sorry unions at AC. You lost all of your credibility and should be allowed/forced to dismantle. As Canadians we have no need of you. You delivery bad, bad service.
AC's been operating just fine until now, which suggests that they do not, in fact, deliver "bad, bad service". The unions area acting within their rights, so I don't see where the issue of credibility has come from. Do I agree with the concept of unions? Not really. Are they legal? Absolutely.

Union tactics have been known for years. Its up to AC to figure out how to deal with the consequences everytime it tries to run roughshod over them.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 118):
Quoting idjim319 (Reply 116):
Why?

Because it's a fundamental right.

Exactly.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 119):
If you really believe your job is that tricky then you maybe need to branch out in the world!

There's no need to belittle other peoples' jobs or abilities. I don't know what you do. And frankly, I m not interested either. As long as people do their job and do it well, that's about all that matters. As noted above, AC's baggage handlers have been doing their job well enough until now.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 120):
The government has right on the behalf of its citizens to act in a way to protect the majority and within the rules of law. And thank god they have.

No. That's called tyranny of the majority. The government has the right to act on behalf of its citizens (majority/minority irrelevant) in a way that respects everybody's rights. In this case, it is riding roughshod over a certain group (your own statement implies it a minority). That is the crux of the argument.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 123):
If AC operating trumps a strike or a lockout which is legal then the government should buy it back and operate it themselves.

Or create contingency plans. Its not like they haven't known about labor problems at Air Canada.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 120):
Your union are a band of fools and I totally agree with the Minister's right to intervene.

You have a right to agree but you don't have a right (on this board, not in general - last thing I want is an Ezra Levant piece on me) to go around calling anyone a fool. As for your agreeing with her, it doesn't make her right (no pun intended). You can support her decision, but for the most part, she is interfering in the affairs of a private company, which she herself has pledged not to do when it suits her (Avios). As others have pointed out, if AC is an essential service, either nationalize it, or start paying the essential service premium. After all, this country does offer a premium to all essential service employees.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
I hope you take an economics course at u of t in your studies. At that point you'll actually learn the supply and demand curve and then you'll learn about market distortion

I've studied economics. I also know that textbook economics don't apply in the real world. The aviation industry, in particular, does not operate on a demand and supply model. If it did, the Canadian government wouldn't put so many barriers to entry for foreign carriers (thats an entire supply component thats being restricted). That distortion was done to protect Canadian workers (or so we were told). Now, we're watching those workers take a battering and being belittled in a media attack. Economics? Anyone working in aviation in Canada would be better off studying politics and recent Canadian history. Economics - especially of the Econ 101 supply/demand variety - does not apply in the Canadian aviation sector.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
Sorry....I prefer to fly efficiently, on time, with clean cabin environment, with my bags on time, then deal with mindless underwork fools who think they have a tough time at work.

Then fly an airline that does not have well documented labor unrest. Your preferrences are irrelevant if the company is at war with its employees. Preferrences and choices are precisely that.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 127):
If you accept these rights, do you then accept not stranding parents in airplanes with children?. Do you also accept not causing deliberately one man to miss an interview --- the job of his life in Singapore. Do you also accept that you caused a family to miss their dear mama's funeral in Edinburgh?

Those people could have missed all those things for any number of reasons - weather, tech problems - whatever. Employers are generally quite considerate when you're coming in from halfway around the world. I know. I've been in that situation more than once. Its a red herring. If they think you're a good fit for the job, they won't hold an airlines operational problems against you - they will make sure they assess you on your merits and your fit for the job. As for the rest, its unfortunate that they will be inconvenienced, but its unfair to blame only the baggage handlers. Takes two to tango.

AC has played its part in creating toxic relations and labor unrest. Blame them too, instead of just the ramp worker. The ramp workers are not the only one responsible for AC's wobbling nature over the past few years. IF those people miss those activities, the responsibility goes right through both the unions and the company and right up to the CEO - isn't that why he is compensated so heavily for running a company that is now the posterboy of toxic labor relations?

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 130):
Then do. Nobody is stopping you.. whatever grad school you find that accepts your undergrad degree.


If its a Canadian degree, it will be recognized/accepted across the english-speaking world. Having the right grades is another issue altogether. That said, if he does end up studying abroad , he'll likely face some problems on his return to Canada. Canadian management schools have an amazing habit of producing HR specialists who've never heard of INSEAD, IMD etc. Makes one wonder about the calibre/worldliness of the Canadian HR folk dealing with employees these days.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 130):
It is a reasonably simply thing. Apply, interview and accept the ramp position from AC. Do the job, accept the pay, do the job as required by the company, accept the pay. Is this too hard to follow.....

Sure, but most positions come with a contract and when that contract is constantly revised away from initial employee expectations (set, it should be noted, by the company in the first place), then there will be conflict. In this case, the conflict lies in past actions, more than in present ones.

[Edited 2012-03-25 07:16:56]

[Edited 2012-03-25 07:18:21]
 
challengerdan
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:17 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 100):
Besides, shouldn't these employees be protesting Aveos management? Typical that they blame Air Canada. AC sent 91% of their major work to Aveos and they still went belly up. Air Canada is easy to blame, but I think Aveos management is getting off easy by employees considering they could not diversify their customer base, and reduce costs.

They could not diversifiy their customer base because AC sold them a poisened operation. How they managed to package it so that it didn't smell rotten from a mile away is the real question, hence the nice premiums Milton has been getting, and why Aveos employees are furious against AC. Also notable is the fact that the first indication that Aveos was going into CCAA was from an AC memo and that they were still AC employees in 2011.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 97):
Totally incorrect. When was AC's last strike that shut down the airline? I think it was sometime in the 1990s. Many airlines have had far more frequent strikes than AC.

CSA in 2011, Air Canada kept operations going. Lasted 3 days. Pilots in 1998. I think operations were suspended. Less than a month. I would have to look it up.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 100):
Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
Maybe if AC had an ACPA, a CUPE, a CAW or an IAMAW representative on their Board of Directors thwy wouldn't be that far apart.

Correct, they would be carving up every bit of the airlines operating revenues to distribute to employees until the airline could no longer operate.
WS seems to be doing just fine with an FA on its Board of directors.


Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 100):
Then they would run to the government for more money. Reminds me of the mafia.

That AC has no problem doing just that already. see here http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/07/...r-canada-gets-bailout-from-ottawa/ (...) Air Canada has secured a 1.02 billion Canadian dollar ($922 million) lifeline with some help from the federal government, giving the carrier a crucial infusion of cash to help it survive the recession and avoid another trip through bankruptcy protection, The Globe and Mail reported.

Ottawa provided a quarter of that.

You can look up more examples if you want the whole story.

Note that all AC unions negotiated "cost neutral" deals in this same period (2009). And that's after imposed agreements from CCAA in 2003, mind you.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 100):

Your arguments are littered with comments of entitlement. None of these workers are entitled to anything except to be paid the wage agreed upon in their contract in return for the agreed upon number of work hours.

Except that the wage agreed is changing now. There is a procedure in place for it to be resolved and because of government intervention it cannot be used.


So...loading bags is no rocket science, fixing airplanes is no different than fixing bicycles, a customer service agent at the airport is about as important as a greeter at Walmart and a pilot is basically an adult that is living a child's dream, let's all work @ 12$/hour. After all the jobs losses lately in Canada, AC is sure to have lots of resumes on their desks. Unemployment insurance only lasts 40 weeks, you know.
And as a reward for its 5 millions retention bonus, Calin can send me a Thank you Card for Christmas.

[Edited 2012-03-25 08:21:00]
if your flight goes MX in YUL, I might be called to fix it!
 
challengerdan
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:17 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 142):
Anyone working in aviation in Canada would be better off studying politics and recent Canadian history. Economics - especially of the Econ 101 supply/demand variety - does not apply in the Canadian aviation sector.

Well said.
All of your post above.
if your flight goes MX in YUL, I might be called to fix it!
 
hoons90
Posts: 3638
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 142):

No. That's called tyranny of the majority. The government has the right to act on behalf of its citizens (majority/minority irrelevant) in a way that respects everybody's rights. In this case, it is riding roughshod over a certain group (your own statement implies it a minority). That is the crux of the argument.

Spot on! Couldn't agree more.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 142):
If they think you're a good fit for the job, they won't hold an airlines operational problems against you - they will make sure they assess you on your merits and your fit for the job. As for the rest, its unfortunate that they will be inconvenienced, but its unfair to blame only the baggage handlers. Takes two to tango.

Exactly.

I wonder why idjim319 chose to overlook the fact that earlier this month, AC management made a decision to lock out its pilots. Double standard! Maybe the management doesn't care about peoples vacation plans as much as you think they do, after all.

[Edited 2012-03-25 08:37:51]
Flown: 2L 7C 9E 9L AA AB AC AF AY AZ BA BR BX B6 CA CO CP CX DL EK EY JL KE KL LA LH LX MQ NW OZ PD RW SQ TG TP TR TS US WG WN WS XE XJ
 
swissy
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:12 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 142):
AC has played its part in creating toxic relations and labor unrest. Blame them too, instead of just the ramp worker.

Sure you need two for the tango... both sides are guilty for the sour mood that is out there. I also have no issue if these union workers exercise their right within their AGREED collective agreement...

How many of you had a chance to participate on a new bargaining between union/management?

Cheerios,
 
challengerdan
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:17 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:24 pm

Quoting swissy (Reply 146):
I also have no issue if these union workers exercise their right within their AGREED collective agreement...

This is exactly what they were going to do. IAMAW gave the company notice, 144 hours instead of the standard 72, about a strike. The company didn't sit with them for a last minute bargain. Instead, they give ACPA a lock-out notice of 72 hours.
And then comes Government intervention.
They submited the matter to the CIRB to evaluate whether AC could be considered essential service in a health and safety perspective (which is what essential should be as per the law). Without even waiting for the CIRB decision, they then pass a bill to have an arbitrator, appointed by the government, to chose which side has the most fair offer.

Talk about market rate and supply/demand now.
if your flight goes MX in YUL, I might be called to fix it!
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:24 pm

Irrespective of my own views on collective bargaining, there will never be any sort of equilibrium given the current paradigm for hating one another (as so clearly illustrated in this thread). At the end of the day, most union workers don't understand where management comes from, and most management doesn't understand where union workers come from. This rampant closed-mindedness is why we find ourselves engaged in this debate. Instead of quoting every other post, here are a few things I would note:

- It's easy for the rampies here to say "you don't get how hard and physically demanding our job is" (which I in no way doubt, I'm a real wimp when it comes to cold temperatures), but on the flip side, it's obvious they don't get how difficult it is to pay your own way through university, study hard as hell for 4-5 YEARS, and come out the back-end with $50,000 in student loans/debt

- There is a serious misconception that striking is a human right. I shouldn't have to explain this, but a human right is a right granted for simply being human. Striking is NOT something we are entitled to for being alive; things such as health, freedom of conscience, freedom of thought, right to a fair trial, etc are human rights. Striking is a labour right, and is not equal to everyone, like it or not.

- Some in this thread seem very offended by the statement "If you don't like it, then quit". I can see how this can be taken the wrong way if taken at face value. I don't think the posters who have said that mean you should find a different line of work, but rather just leave the company and take up the job you love at an airline that respects your value more. You might love being a ramp attendant, but if you feel your relationship with AC management is not beneficial to your well-being, then apply to Porter who is hiring in 7 different cities right now.

- Lastly, a small anecdote: I worked for a steel company as a purchaser and materials manager, controlling millions of dollars of materials every week. I also happened to make less than the unionized workers down on the floor who sat in cranes or stood at slitters watching gauges all day. What I saw first-hand was that union leaders consistently convince their paying members that they are entitled, the members in turn believe the elected representatives (because they elected them), and it the fosters a common belief that they are more special for this reason or that, whatever is may be. I don't blame the members because I truly believe they are mislead by those representing them, and that in itself is very toxic.

Quoting sbworcs (Reply 139):
And surely the Union members / leaders get the Management they deserve?

  

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 142):
That said, if he does end up studying abroad , he'll likely face some problems on his return to Canada. Canadian management schools have an amazing habit of producing HR specialists who've never heard of INSEAD, IMD etc. Makes one wonder about the calibre/worldliness of the Canadian HR folk dealing with employees these days.

Entirely correct. Although I would tend to err on the side of calling it a North American habit as opposed to just a Canadian habit. We tend to live in a microcosm that doesn't fully recognize the distinction of great business school's like INSEAD, LSE, or HEC Paris.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 143):
How they managed to package it so that it didn't smell rotten from a mile away is the real question

They didn't. Any degree of due diligence would have uncovered any shortcoming of the business. It's not AC selling unethically, it's simply a case of buyer's remorse as a result of their own inability to manage the transaction effectively.
Flying refined.
 
ac7e7
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 143):
They could not diversifiy their customer base because AC sold them a poisened operation.

Care to elaborate? Broad statement with no facts to back it up. Aveos had all the infrastructure, skilled labour, and initial revenue stream from AC. They had to diversify their customer base. At some point, the kids need to leave home and make it on their own. Aeroplan and Chorus have done a good job expanding their business, why couldn't Aveos? Aveos management is getting off easy, and AC is getting the blame. A bankrupt business is blaming THEIR ONLY CUSTOMER. How ridiculous is this? A company has one client who believes in them, and the company blames them for not sending them more business. Does nobody take responsibility for their own actions anymore? Aveos is gone today because of high labout costs relative to their competition, and management unable to secure new clients.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 143):
WS seems to be doing just fine with an FA on its Board of directors.

True, they have an employee representative, but Westjet doesn't have unionized employees.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 143):
That AC has no problem doing just that already. see here http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/07/...r-canada-gets-bailout-from-ottawa/ (...) Air Canada has secured a 1.02 billion Canadian dollar ($922 million) lifeline with some help from the federal government, giving the carrier a crucial infusion of cash to help it survive the recession and avoid another trip through bankruptcy protection, The Globe and Mail reported.

You are absolutely correct. The airline's business model no longer works. The airline can't make money on their own, and as soon as there is a speed bump in the economy the airline is in trouble. It doesn't matter what concessions were made back in the day, the fact of the matter is, they weren't enough.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 143):
Except that the wage agreed is changing now. There is a procedure in place for it to be resolved and because of government intervention it cannot be used.

I agree. The government should not have gotten involved. However would you have been happy if AC locked out their employees rather then the employees going on strike? Even though it would have been their right as well? I think not.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 143):
So...loading bags is no rocket science, fixing airplanes is no different than fixing bicycles, a customer service agent at the airport is about as important as a greeter at Walmart and a pilot is basically an adult that is living a child's dream, let's all work @ 12$/hour. After all the jobs losses lately in Canada, AC is sure to have lots of resumes on their desks. Unemployment insurance only lasts 40 weeks, you know. And as a reward for its 5 millions retention bonus, Calin can send me a Thank you Card for Christmas.

So what is a fair wage? Rather then answering the question I posed in my last post, you make a statement like this? Do you believe a pilot should be making $12/hr? No? Is it because their job requires more skill then loading baggage? Oh, so there should be a difference in wages for different job? How much should the CEO be making? What do you believe is fair? Remember, you have to compensate him/her enough money to deal with all the unions, public scrutiny, banks, venture capitalists, competition, etc etc etc. whereas a baggage handler is really just general labour. Not everyone can be a CEO, whereas my grandmother can load baggage.

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