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LOWS
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FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:49 pm

Lufthansa has just announced that the union Ver.di (Vereinte Dienstleistungsgewerkschaft= United Services Union) will be striking at FRA, CGN, DUS and MUC on Tuesday.

http://goo.gl/MiRfD

List of flights already canceled:
goo.gl/EIvhv

[Edited 2012-03-26 07:09:51]
 
something
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:12 pm

Strikes are always an unpleasant thing for those affected by them, but I find this strike more than legitimate.

The strikes are aimed against efforts to liberalize the ground handling at various German airports to allow for more competition and thus, lower prices. As a consequence, salaries of ground handlers are likely to take a hit. Germany's low-wage labor market is already the biggest in the entire EU and Germany is often critisized for their lack of a minimum wage.

As a result, people working 40+ hrs. a week can't make ends meet and have to apply for financial aid from the government (''Kombilöhne''). Through this construct, the German taxpayer is indirectly subsidizing many of its industries.

The German tax payer should not have to subsidize air travel and ramp workers should receive adequate remuneration for their services. If the German gov't wants air travel to come cheaper, they should drop the much debated departure tax. If they want to liberalize their labor markets, they should introduce a minimum wage and join the rest of the modern world.

In conclusion, sorry for the travellers but their anger should be directed at the politicians, not the people throwing their backs out loading aircraft.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
Setjet
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:48 pm

Unbelievable, this is really getting ridiculous with strikes now every few weeks at German airports...
 
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LOWS
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:38 pm

The „Follow Me“ strikes were unreasonable and unwarranted. I agree with Something. No one working 40hrs a week should be going to the Social Welfare office. The Follow Me drivers wanted more money for a very simple job, when they already made quite a lot.
 
aloges
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting Setjet (Reply 2):
Unbelievable, this is really getting ridiculous with strikes now every few weeks at German airports...

Tell the managers and bureaucrats in our companies and public entities. The German economy has been doing pretty nicely for some time, but workers and employees are getting just crumbs, if even those, of that freshly baked cake. The social inequality in this country has skyrocketed, so it's a small wonder that people are upset.
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PanHAM
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:49 am

It has to be said that the union which is on strike today is the public workers union. Not in the case of Fraport, where people are well paid for what they are doing (and overly well paid in the case of the marshallers, who have settled their dispute quietly meanwhile), but in the case of the cities who are broke and cannot afford the demands of Ver.di without further loans.

You also have to bear in mind that the employers for public servants are WE, the people. We have to pay their salaries. But how one can say that airport employees, evem if they are working in separate companies belonging to Fraport, are underpaid, is hard to understand. And if they have not enough in their pockets it is de to the high taxes and social benefits, which is taken from their gross pay.

If Germany wants to catch up on strike days with france and Italy we are certainly on a bad way to get this done.
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standby87
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:48 am

Yep, only got 1 departure from ZRH away to FRA today so far...
 
plateman
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:54 am

Can any Germans inform me of future strike plans? American media is not covering this strike in excess .

I will be in DUS/CGN on March 31-April 2 (KLM in, EasyJet out)
And Hamburg April 4-5 (BA in, SAS out)

Thanks in advance
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:07 am

Quoting LOWS (Reply 3):
No one working 40hrs a week should be going to the Social Welfare office. The

What about minimum salary in Austria?
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LOWS
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:08 am

Quoting plateman (Reply 7):
Can any Germans inform me of future strike plans? American media is not covering this strike in excess .

I only found out last night when LH announced it. No one has a crystal ball.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 8):
What about minimum salary in Austria?

Our system of social partners set wage standards outside of the government's influence. The minimum is about 14.000€ per year, so more than enough for one person to live on. I live on about 14.500€, so I know what I'm talking about.

[Edited 2012-03-27 05:10:36]
 
something
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:22 am

Quoting plateman (Reply 7):
And Hamburg April 4-5 (BA in, SAS out)

So far nothing seems planned. But I also can't remember the last time Hamburg's operations were interrupted by strikes other than ATC.
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loalq
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:09 pm

...and then some wonder why European carriers are losing ground to Gulf carriers. Sure, not the only reason, but definitively one of them...
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 4):
Tell the managers and bureaucrats in our companies and public entities. The German economy has been doing pretty nicely for some time, but workers and employees are getting just crumbs, if even those, of that freshly baked cake. The social inequality in this country has skyrocketed, so it's a small wonder that people are upset.

I fully agree. We have not had any pay rise in more than five years. In that time petrol alone has increased by 50 percent. Most food products by around 20 percent. Germany is almost like Russia of old now. How can it be that a qualified Aircraft Mechanic with an EASA Cat A license and a full CRS type course can only be paid the same as any person filling the shelves in Lidl or Aldi ? Or, after two years his pay will only be increased by around 50 Euros per month ! In MUC Swissport-Losch have taken much of the work from other Ground Handling companies. The rate is around 7 Euros per hour for most people. It sounds OK except that includes the shift allowance for shifts starting at 4am. Really, the whole Aviation industry is a joke nowadays and it can't be blamed just on fuel taxes, fuel prices, volcanic ash etc. These excuses have been used in large to make people think they should just be happy having a job. The reality is that the many Airlines and Airport operators are making big profits again, but it doesn't filter down to the people who need it most, the lowest paid workers within the companies.

Just to add to my post. I myself have a good position within my company. I feel sorry for the younger guys who are wanting to join this industry. You can earn more working in nearly any company outside the airport now. We lost people to car companies and even breweries ! An electrician at the brewery earns more than a licensed aircraft mechanic and he will only have to work monday to friday and also get seven free crates of beer every month. Now that is a win win situation !

[Edited 2012-03-27 06:22:11]
 
plateman
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:39 pm

Quoting something (Reply 10):
So far nothing seems planned. But I also can't remember the last time Hamburg's operations were interrupted by strikes other than ATC.

Thank you, I am hopeful. If I loose DUS/CGN, I guess KLM would leave me in Amsterdam, so I would explore that and figure out a new way to London.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 9):
I only found out last night when LH announced it. No one has a crystal ball.

Uh-oh .. hopeful for the best
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:54 pm

Quoting plateman (Reply 13):
Uh-oh .. hopeful for the best

As am I for my meetings/city break in AMS, and my closest colleague's business in LHR this week. We're both connecting in FRA. That's life, I guess.

[Edited 2012-03-27 06:55:15]
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:08 pm

There is usually one day notice. The airports have been hit otday, not Lh, they are the victims as are the passengers and it costs the airlines actually more than the companies whoich have been meant by the strike.

The next days it will be public transport, garbage collectors or kindergartens again.

Interesting side note, the boss of the union Ver.di is on the Lufthansa board since many years. He damaged the company so often that, would he be on the "other side" of the board he would have been ousted, sued for damages and convicted to pay millions. He was, over most of the years, never approved by a shareholder majority, something that normally leads to instant voluntary resignation from the board. Not for someone who is on the "workers" side. I am sure it never occured to him that the employes damage their own company through strike actions, but when it comes to fringes, well, he made the news with a first class tour to Polynesia including family.

OK, a board member is entitled to that, better , was. LH changed the rules after Mr. Bsirske's excurse to the jetset life.

As a shareholder of LH I cannot expect more than e 0,20 or 0,25 per share, last year it was € 0,60 and the best year ever € 1,25. Lh is an employer where the profits of a year usually are split up in 3/3rds, one third remains in the company to build up equity, one third goes to the shareholers and the remaining third. is paid as boni to all employees.

What is happening with the strikes right now is really bad, it is simply too much and something has to be done about it. It can't be that those who are not even striked against are hit the most, over and over again.
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captaincrackers
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:38 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
It can't be that those who are not even striked against are hit the most, over and over again.

I totally agree, but I definitely don't want the government end the strikes by giving in and paying its public workers fairly, because then there wouldn't be enough in the kitty to give everyone that massive tax cut that Wolfgang Schäuble and the FDP keep promising.
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:08 pm

You live in Oz and that is far away. There are no "massive" tax cuts promised by anyone. We did not have a single tax cut in the past decades that really led to the finance minister collecting less money. It was always so that the government collected more money than the year before and spent more than the year before. I am talking about the bottom line.

In th airline industry we have since last year the departure tax which is hurting the carriers based here, in addition to that they are facing strikes which hit them as innocent by-standers and they are shackled by night curfews which make operations and efficient use of billion € investments difficult. On top of that we have a general public whoich is totally ignorant about business matters and wants to eat the cake and keep it at te same time.

If that is not enough, the airlines have to pay compensation to stranded passengers for reasons they cannot do anythoing about. Latest "judges law" is that airlines even have to compensate to passengers stranded by volcano.

When I learned my trade some 45 years ago, strikes, riots, civil commotions were "Hoehere Gewalt" (acts of God) same as earth quake or volcano outbreaks. The changes can only be explained by total ignorance towards comemrcial facts, including the mis-information who , at the end of the day, has to pay for all that. That is no one else than the consumer, all these goodies are either insured or eventually spread over the ticket prices. That may, in competetive environments not always work, in which case the airline might go broke in the long run, or scale down.



.
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Quokkas
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:02 pm

Mit all diesen Tippfehler, Ich denke dass es an der Zeit ist, dass Sie sich eine neue Brille kaufen.   Also, zur Thema:

In any strike it is always the passengers who suffer the inconvenience of delayed departures, missed connections, baggage that doesn't show up, cancelled travel. It is indeed very unfortunate. The workers lose their pay while they are on strike and the directors continue to draw their salaries and bonuses. In an ideal world strikes would not occur.

Sadly, we don't live in an ideal world - far from it. The the very first thing that we can notice whenever a business calls for changes, is that it is the workforce who have to make the "concessions". Workers are continually reminded that "we have to tighten our belts", while the management and the directors go on collecting their high salaries and bonuses. The workers tighten their belts and the directors loosen theirs. The contracts that the management and directors have signed are very clear on this point. Any attempt to change them, or end them, requires a massive pay out as compensation. Meanwhile the "stupid" workers, who don't realise that their "greed" only harms the company, accept the blame for any inconvenience that results from managements efforts to avoid a strike in the first place.

There are two sides to every story - indeed three, when you take the innocent victims into consideration, some of whom may actually understand business matters. But why, as other posters have suggested, is their not a minimum wage that avoids workers having to claim social support? No person who works honestly in a full-time position should be forced to undergo the indignity of applying for social security simply to ensure that the directors continue to be paid very generous bonuses and shareholders receive a minimal return on their investments.

While I agree that every passenger should have comprehensive travel insurance, sadly most insurance companies in the past also understood the notions of "Hoehere Gewalt" or "force majeure " in a way that made those policies useless if anything did happen. The EU could have tackled the insurance companies but perhaps thought that making the airlines, who would insure against such events, responsible would result in far greater pressure on the insurance companies. It is not pretty either way but if all airlines operating in the EU are faced with the same impost there is no competitive disadvantage .
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 12):
I fully agree. We have not had any pay rise in more than five years. In that time petrol alone has increased by 50 percent. Most food products by around 20 percent. Germany is almost like Russia of old now. How can it be that a qualified Aircraft Mechanic with an EASA Cat A license and a full CRS type course can only be paid the same as any person filling the shelves in Lidl or Aldi ? Or, after two years his pay will only be increased by around 50 Euros per month ! In MUC Swissport-Losch have taken much of the work from other Ground Handling companies. The rate is around 7 Euros per hour for most people. It sounds OK except that includes the shift allowance for shifts starting at 4am. Really, the whole Aviation industry is a joke nowadays and it can't be blamed just on fuel taxes, fuel prices, volcanic ash etc. These excuses have been used in large to make people think they should just be happy having a job. The reality is that the many Airlines and Airport operators are making big profits again, but it doesn't filter down to the people who need it most, the lowest paid workers within the companies.

Just to add to my post. I myself have a good position within my company. I feel sorry for the younger guys who are wanting to join this industry. You can earn more working in nearly any company outside the airport now. We lost people to car companies and even breweries ! An electrician at the brewery earns more than a licensed aircraft mechanic and he will only have to work monday to friday and also get seven free crates of beer every month. Now that is a win win situation !

One of our more experienced CAT A mechanics left our company a few months ago to start working as a construction machine field service technician for a big construction machinery manufacturer (cranes, diggers, compactors etc.). He earns the same as a certifying EASA Part 66 B1 engineer with multiple type ratings, who works in a shift pattern including night shift, but in his job he only works monday - friday 7 am - 4 pm.

Jan
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PanHAM
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:40 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 18):
But why, as other posters have suggested, is their not a minimum wage that avoids workers having to claim social support?

for the simple reason that whatever a minimum wage in other countries is, it would qualify workers in Germany for additional social support. We have a variety of "minimum " wages, a broom swiper cleaning the Fraport terminal makes at least € 8,50 an hour, the immediate social costs to his employer pushes that over € 10,50. If he has 2 children and a wife not working, he may qualify for additonal support. the same family not working at all received about € 2000,00 per month net, depending how much the rent for the flat costs.

The unions are complaining on a high level. No one here would work for the US minimum wage, not even get out of the bed in the morning.

This is a complex story, 2 weeks ago we have discussed the powers of small pressure group stopping work at FRA, they have meanwhile settled and the result is kept under disguise, at least I haven't seen any note telling how much they get. They get too much, that's for sure, for the qualification they have.

.
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aloges
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:06 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
The unions are complaining on a high level.

Oh, really... Workers and employees were the ones making concessions during the latest downturn of the German economy. I'm sure you're familiar with the word "Lohnzurückhaltung"; real wages have been falling for years. And now that the economy is strong again, they mustn't ask for their share?!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
No one here would work for the US minimum wage, not even get out of the bed in the morning.

Some might say it's a good thing that we don't yet have armies of workers and employees living in poverty despite full-time employment... Anyway, methinks that you haven't quite followed the German low-wage sector for some time.

Quote:
Jeder vierte Beschäftigte erhält nur Niedriglohn

Deutschland, Land des Niedriglohns: Eine Studie belegt, dass acht Millionen Menschen weniger als 9,15 Euro brutto pro Stunde verdienen, knapp 1,4 Millionen verdienen nicht einmal fünf Euro. 800.000 Vollzeit-Beschäftigte müssen von einem Monatslohn von weniger als 1000 Euro brutto leben.

Key point: more than 1.4 million Germans earn less than €5 per hour. I suppose that many of these precarious wages are subsidised by the government, to allow people to pay for outrageous luxuries such as food, rent, heating, transport and clothing.   

The federal US minimum wage of $7.25 currently cunverts to approximately €5,40 - and many states and municipalities have their own higher minimum wages.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
This is a complex story, 2 weeks ago we have discussed the powers of small pressure group stopping work at FRA, they have meanwhile settled and the result is kept under disguise, at least I haven't seen any note telling how much they get.

Read all you want here. As per that article, the union got what it wanted: wages that match those of their peers at MUC.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
They get too much, that's for sure, for the qualification they have.

not according to Fraport and, even before the strike, the Flughafen München GmbH
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L410Turbolet
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:17 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 18):
The EU could have tackled the insurance companies but perhaps thought that making the airlines, who would insure against such events, responsible would result in far greater pressure on the insurance companies.

Highly unlikely that the EU would do anything about it since right to strike is a sacred cow and going on a general strike twice a month basically generally accepted lifestyle in certain countries (in particular west of Germany). Even the 261 which sets foundation for passenger rights to compensation exempts strike as a reason to claim compensation.
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:37 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 21):
real wages have been falling for years. And now that the economy is strong again, they mustn't ask for their share?!

it may be news to you, but we have a single market since several years now and in a single market, we have to stay competetive. we are good at that because German industry and services are highly flexible. As to the lower end of the wages scale, you can offer to an employee only what you can sell to a customer. I said that for instance € 8,50 costs more than € 10,50, that does not include holidays, average sick days no overhead etc. . Depending on how big the company is, you can almost double the gross pay and then overhead is not included yet. Try to sell € 17,00 for unskilled labor on the market. In many cases you won't succeed, that's why hotel laundry is washed in Poland, just to mention one.

Quoting aloges (Reply 21):
Anyway, methinks that you haven't quite followed the German low-wage sector for some time.

I have, I am a member of the Mittelstandsvereinigung. But I never have employed people in the low wages sector, actually I never had employees who worked on a hourly base, only monthly wages and in air cargo these always were high above average, never tariff. .

Quoting aloges (Reply 21):
Key point: more than 1.4 million Germans earn less than €5 per hour.

who would not have a job for a higher pay. Key point is, that many of these jobs are side kicks, house wifes who supplement the family income on the famous € 400,00 jobs, pensioners who supplement their pension. Of course the odd-one out who then gets subsidies. But the latter would depend fully on welfare if they did not have that small income.


BTW, the nions have created much of that and the recent strikes they are back to their old demand of a basic increase of € 200,00. They never leran that this is the reason why no broom sweeper at an airport is employed by the airport like it was in the 70s up to the early 80s.
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aloges
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:55 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
it may be news to you
...
the nions (...) never leran

Put on another record, will you?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
But I never have employed people in the low wages sector, actually I never had employees who worked on a hourly base

So you do follow the sector, but you've never had anything to do with it and you don't make sure you know at least some basic data on it before posting untruths like "no German would even get out of bed for the US minimum wage"... sorry, that does not compute.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
Key point is, that many of these jobs are side kicks, house wifes who supplement the family income on the famous € 400,00 jobs, pensioners who supplement their pension.

If you're not even going to take a look at my source, there's hardly a reason to continue this.

Quote:
Laut der Studie bekamen die Niedrigverdiener im Durchschnitt im Jahr 2010 6,68 Euro im Westen und 6,52 Euro im Osten. Von ihnen erhielten mehr als 4,1 Millionen weniger als sieben Euro, gut 2,5 Millionen weniger als sechs Euro und knapp 1,4 Millionen sogar nicht einmal fünf Euro die Stunde. Knapp jeder Zweite der niedrig bezahlten Menschen arbeitet dabei voll und nicht Teilzeit. So gibt es nach den Berechnungen des Instituts allein fast 800.000 Vollzeit-Beschäftigte, die weniger als sechs Euro kassieren können. Sie kamen damit auf einen Monatslohn, der unter 1000 Euro brutto lag.

Translation of the bold part: "Almost half of the low-wage employees work full time, not part time. According to the calculations of the institute, there are nearly 800,000 full-time employees who are paid less than six Euros (per hour)".

By the way, I did notice your silence on the compromise between Fraport and the GdF...  
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PanHAM
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:10 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 24):
Put on another record, will you?

why should I, will you?

Quoting aloges (Reply 24):
So you do follow the sector, but you've never had anything to do with it

Praise me for that. I always paid much more than the tariff was and is. Simple supply and demand. Good people get good pay. In a well managed small company you need good people who are interested in the job and know how to make money. At the end of the day they are their moneys worth.


Well, to your "study". What it says is that more than 2 million people in the low wages sector work mpart-time. Even considering that 800.000 people work full time on a low wages job, the studiy does not mention how many of those have a € 400,00 job on the side. Even though it is illegal, many have 2 or 3 € 400,00 jobs on the side in addition to their fully time job. They sign in children or other denepnedants. Customs does checks but can't be everywhere.

That's the fact side of the topic, yours is the social romantic side.
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aloges
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:39 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
why should I, will you?

Please do show me where I derided people because they disagreed with me.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
Even though it is illegal, many have 2 or 3 € 400,00 jobs on the side in addition to their fully time job.

...and how exactly is that not proof that the German low-wage labour market is a mess? If people have to make ends meet through such arrangements, it's not just due to their criminal energy. It's because many of them don't have a choice.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
That's the fact side of the topic, yours is the social romantic side.

What's "social romantic" about wanting full-time workers to receive wages that they can live on?

Anyway, this is too personal and too far off topic. You seem to be thinking strictly in the classic left vs. right categories - it does get repetitive.

[Edited 2012-03-28 02:40:14]
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PanHAM
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:25 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 26):
What's "social romantic" about wanting full-time workers to receive wages that they can live on?

I stopped thinkng "left/right" latest after I reflected on Schroeders politics. He did a couple of good things and he said one sentence which boils it down to the nitty gritty. You know what I mean, in English it is a word game. There's no left or right politics, there is only politics thats right.

Instead of "right" one could also say "realistic" and that is the opposite of social romantic. Social romantic is dreaming about hoiw things ought to be, "realistic" is reflecting on the reality and the reality is much more complex than simple dreams.

I have mentioned the single market already. A couple of years ago Brussels wanted competition in the handling market. Fraport had a monopoly which they defended of course, both CDU EU MP's for the state of Hesse live in my county, for some reasons, so I know both personally and I know how they defended Fraports position, of course on the side of the workers so they could sustain their social featherbedding. Life and reality overtook them, in passenger handling there is competition and it works well. In cargo handling there's an open market and competition is much more fierce. Now Brussels wants additional competition in pax handling and the protectionist game starts all over. Ver.di is not pleased and so is Fraport.

But there's another point - you can pay people only what you get from your customers. That's basic economics, but unfrtunately basic economics is not taught at schools in Germany. The market has reacted years ago with plenty of low cost outlets in food and non-food retail. Markets work. Always.

In case of handling, I am coming back to quality. I do not want to see low paid people on the tramac around million dollar equipment. Knowing from my wife, who has to deal with low paid employees how "reliable" they are (and the unrelaible are the most expensive even when they only make 7,50 an hour), I would always opt as an employer to quality. Otherwise the stress on supvervisors and managers is too great. The customers, Lufthansa for instance, are aware that the standards they expect have to be in line with the money they are prepared to pay.

At the end of the day the answer is automatisation. I am long enough in business and had the opportunity in these years to accompny the change that really has taken place. There is a reason for low wages, other than the single market. You and me are facing that reason right now, the computer. Information technology. I have learned my trade, Speditonskaufmann, in every aspects. I was taught to learn why I am doing things, not only how. The training was ocean, air, surface, barge and warehousing. Today, that equals and would require a University study, not the simple college education back then. To make the same career, University is a must nowadays. Offices are fully running on programs specialised for the task. That means, companies can employ key staff for customer relations and for the mechanical work people with a lesser educational background and pay less. To fill out prepared masks, a couple of hours training do.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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LTU330
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:25 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
One of our more experienced CAT A mechanics left our company a few months ago to start working as a construction machine field service technician for a big construction machinery manufacturer (cranes, diggers, compactors etc.). He earns the same as a certifying EASA Part 66 B1 engineer with multiple type ratings, who works in a shift pattern including night shift, but in his job he only works monday - friday 7 am - 4 pm.

Too true. One of my Cat A mechanics left last year to go into the wind and hydro turbine industry. He gets to travel the world (OK only ideal if you are single) and earns twice the Cat A rate in basic pay alone. That says it all. In our small village the local Penny and Lidl offer minimum starting rate now of 11 Euros/hour. Our mechanics start on about 8.50 Euro per hour. A Cat B1 with say 3 or 4 types probably averages around 20 Euros per hour. UPS offer 14.86 Euro per hour for loading and unloading the vehicles in the Munich area. So difference between a fully unskilled position and what used to be considered a highly skilled position of B1 inspector is now around 4 Euros per hour. I have been in this industry for 30 years now, and really there is not much that has changed in that time. If you look at contracting in this industry, the rates are lower than 20 years ago now.
 
aloges
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
Markets work. Always.

I'm just not a big fan of blind faith. And when it's put into something as frequently and easily manipulated as the aviation and transport industries, it is particularly out of place.

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 28):
If you look at contracting in this industry, the rates are lower than 20 years ago now.

I think that's true for most industries, but the aviation industry might be winning the proverbial race to the bottom. In that one, it's not just the capital that's highly mobile, but also many of its key assets. You don't maintain a European truck in Xiamen...
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
captaincrackers
Posts: 93
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:57 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
Markets work. Always.

Sounds like **somebody** just changed their position on Germany's current restrictions on Gulf carriers... tee, hee, hee.
 
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LOWS
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):

You live in Oz and that is far away. There are no "massive" tax cuts promised by anyone. We did not have a single tax cut in the past decades that really led to the finance minister collecting less money.
Quote:
The FDP was the main driving force behind plans by the government of Angela Merkel, chancellor, to kick off her second term with a €8.5bn ($12.3bn, £7.6bn) package of tax cuts, enacted late last year, and to continue with another round of cuts this year worth just under €20bn.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/aae0eb16-fae7-11de-94d8-00144feab49a.html

My work involves me occasionally meeting/dealing with tax-cut obsessed FDP officials. They deserve what they got in Saarland and what they will get in NRW and the next Bundeswahl. I say that as a member of ELDR myself.

I was initially against the strikes, PanHAM, but miraculously, you made me for them.  

[Edited 2012-03-28 07:57:46]
 
aloges
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 31):
My work involves me occasionally meeting/dealing with tax-cut obsessed FDP officials. They deserve what they got in Saarland and what they will get in NRW and the next Bundeswahl.

I've never understood why they started pretending that pro-business has to be anti-labour.   
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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LOWS
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RE: FRA+CGN+MUC+DUS Strikes On 27 March

Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 32):
I've never understood why they started pretending that pro-business has to be anti-labour.   

Indeed. I've always understood the Austrian (and German) social market model's strength coming from being equally pro-business and pro-labour. Both sides benefit when cooperation and not confrontation is the modus operandi. Compared to more confrontational places (UK, US).

Sure, Germany and Austria do not have perfect labour relations (e.g. AUA/VO right now, FRA, etc.) but no where near as bad as in the US: US, AA, UA(?), etc.

[Edited 2012-03-28 09:37:28]

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