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SXDFC
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:10 pm

I remember reading somewhere that IR can lease airplanes despite the sanctions, however they prefer to own their planes so that they could do the MX work on them. Can anyone confirm?
 
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Spacepope
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 49):
So if this is in fact the case, where is the logic in purchasing replacement aircraft with shorter lifespans than the aircraft they are replacing?

One other possibility is that they need the -100 and -200s as spares sources for the 747 tankers used by the air force.
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haveasafeflight
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 51):
One other possibility is that they need the -100 and -200s as spares sources for the 747 tankers used by the air force.

That's not beyond the realms of probability, but still doesn't explain why they bought 26 year old aircraft with fewer remaining cycles than the aircraft they are intended to replace! Surely they could have sourced younger examples or at least airplanes with considerably lower cycles than their existing 747-100/200's?
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IR800
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 24):
Mahan is in fact experiencing serious problems maintaining their 747-400's...
I heard a rumor recently that Mahan Air they are looking to get rid of their 747-400's - looks like they bit of more than they could chew...

Not much relevant to the topic, but their problem is embargo, not maintenance.

Anyway, IR (and other Iranian airlines) don't have so many choices, say, to buy younger P&W powered 400s with lower number of cycles and hours. Even these oldies have taken much effort to come to Iran.

[Edited 2012-03-29 11:37:12]
 
Rdh3e
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 24):
it is standard good practice to always use the latest version of the manufacturers manuals.
Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 24):
To not do so represents a very serious risk to the safety of the aircraft

I know in one of your posts you said that boeing tailors every manual specific to serial number. But how different are the manuals really? I mean to the point where there is a significant variance. And really, at this age how much are they changing ?

Sheer curiosity, as I would just assume they probably just photocopy somebody else's manuals for a similarly optioned airplane.
 
JAGflyer
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:06 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 54):

The manuals are specific to the operator/leasing company. For example, my airline has a fleet of 23 planes all leased from 4-5 different companies (regardless of being first or third tier lease). The main manuals (AMM, AIPC, FIM, FRM, SDS, WDM) are all tailored to the different leasing companies with some parts being specific to variant/line numbers. Generally speaking, a B737-800 is a B737-800 however some have different configurations (avionics, modifications, etc) due to the leasing company ordering the plane with specific specs. I guess you could compare it to a Honda Civic DX and a Honda Civic EX-L. Same car, same parts, however some have different engines, seats, electronics, suspension, etc.
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bennett123
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:17 pm

I suspect Iran Air will to take what they can get.

No point ringing Boeing.
 
B747FE
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:34 am

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 24):
Are you suggesting that Boeing sells customized manuals to third parties?

Embargo issues aside off course, Boeing could provide manual update services to the current owner of those airframes provided the owner pays the fees.
Been there, done that while I was still working in engineering.

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 24):
it is standard good practice to always use the latest version of the manufacturers manuals.

That's correct.

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 24):
When the manufacturer issues a revision to a manual, it is mandatory to always use the latest version as critical updates need to be performed. To not do so represents a very serious risk to the safety of the aircraft. So in essence, if you don't have the latest manuals for the airplane you shouldn't be operating it.

Let's not make a mystery about the manuals. Obviously they have been getting updates for their manuals and SB's for their current fleet, after all it's not exactly ''classified material''

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 54):
And really, at this age how much are they changing ?

Not much.
All mods, airframe & power plant, were done and properly documented by QF.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 51):
One other possibility is that they need the -100 and -200s as spares sources for the 747 tankers used by the air force.

Perhaps.
I don't remember issues with the airframes, but several of the engines mounted on them at the time of retirement from QF were getting short on cycles and under very frequent repetitive inspections.
And as lightsaber correctly said:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
The major risk is the engines. Which is about half the maintenance work...

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B747FE.
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haveasafeflight
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting IR800 (Reply 53):
Not much relevant to the topic, but their problem is embargo, not maintenance.

You need to understand that the maintenance troubles experienced by Iranian airlines are inextricably linked with the embargoes i.e. cause and effect. It's always going to be more difficult to maintain aircraft to the latest safety standards when you are restricted from receiving support from the aircraft manufacturer. Just look at the EU's blacklisting of Iran Air's 747's on safety grounds as an example of this:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-on-mro-and-airworthiness-344160/

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 54):

I know in one of your posts you said that boeing tailors every manual specific to serial number. But how different are the manuals really?

The manuals are different insofar as the specifications / characteristics of the individual aircraft serial numbers. This is what Boeing has to say on their website brochure:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/avi...vices/brochures/CustChangeCARD.pdf

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/avi...ance-manuals/customer-changes.html

"Many Boeing maintenance documents are “customized” – which means that these manuals contain information tailored to specific aircraft tail numbers. Boeing provides for the incorporation of customer-originated changes into the following customized manuals: AMM, BCLM, FIM, FRM, PPBU, Task Cards, SSM/WDM, and IPC. This service is offered as a convenience to our customers to provide a means of publishing document changes unique to a particular
customer".

So if an operator wishes to remain aligned with the manufacturers latest aircraft safety standards, customized manuals are really the way to go.

Quoting B747FE (Reply 22):
Yes they do, although it's a very expensive service and as you said is probably not available for IR.

For sure this Boeing service is not cheap and is a real cash cow for the folks in Seattle.

Quoting B747FE (Reply 57):
Let's not make a mystery about the manuals. Obviously they have been getting updates for their manuals and SB's for their current fleet, after all it's not exactly ''classified material''

SB's maybe as they are generic in nature (i.e. issued to an entire model type - not specific serial numbers like customized updates) but with regard to the aircraft manuals, are you saying that Iran Air is receiving customized updates from Boeing?

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 54):
Sheer curiosity, as I would just assume they probably just photocopy somebody else's manuals for a similarly optioned airplane.

To avoid repetition of previous comments, I'll sum up with saying that airplane manuals customized according to the particular airplane serial number(s) by the manufacturer (Boeing, Airbus or whoever) are the equivalent to a tailor made suit - they are made to exact and precise specifications according to the latest safety standards and recommendations for those particular airplanes. There is nothing inherently wrong with an "off the rack" (i.e manuals photocopied from another operator with similar aircraft) but a bespoke solution, built to match specific criteria is far superior.

So to conclude my point, if all of Iran Air's existing 747's have already been blacklisted from EU airspace on safety grounds due to Iran Air's deficiencies with safety-related maintenance, what makes these 747-300's any different? If their "new" 747-300's (which are actually 26 years old) actually manage to gain EU airspace approval isn't it simply a matter of time before they too become a victim of these deficiencies?
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a300
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 51):
One other possibility is that they need the -100 and -200s as spares sources for the 747 tankers used by the air force.

I doubt that. The air force's 100s have very low hours on them despite that there are very early 1970s vintage (one was actually built in 1969)! It seems that the air force has already parted out an ex-Iraqi 747-200 and a couple of their old 100s for parts. That said, the overhauls are done at the same outfit that does work for Iran Air and Mahan. The latter has also brought a couple of old 747s for parts.
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bennett123
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:24 pm

So which ones have been parted out so far?.
 
kaitak
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:30 pm

Just a question that comes to mind about these aircraft; if they were sourced and obtained illegally, i.e. in contravention of international (not just US) sanctions, could they be impounded if they flew outside Iran, e.g. to the EU?

Leaving aside the issue of political sanctions, there is also the issue of airworthiness; if they don't have the correct manuals, there are probably other issues which cause cause them to fail ad-hoc inspections by European airworthiness authorities.
 
haveasafeflight
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:53 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 61):
Leaving aside the issue of political sanctions, there is also the issue of airworthiness; if they don't have the correct manuals, there are probably other issues which cause cause them to fail ad-hoc inspections by European airworthiness authorities.

You hit the nail on the head. I think there is a real risk of these airplanes winding up blacklisted alongside Iran Air's older vintage 747's as a result of the safety-related maintenance deficiencies identified by the EU. Time will tell I guess.
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rutankrd
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:31 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 61):

Just a question that comes to mind about these aircraft; if they were sourced and obtained illegally, i.e. in contravention of international (not just US) sanctions, could they be impounded if they flew outside Iran, e.g. to the EU?

Leaving aside the issue of political sanctions, there is also the issue of airworthiness; if they don't have the correct manuals, there are probably other issues which cause cause them to fail ad-hoc inspections by European airworthiness authorities.

The answer to that is yes they could be seized by bailiffs acting on behalf of the USA or EU.
Mahran lost a few B744 they were scheduled to get via Blue Sky already.

These won't be seen in Europe any time soon and if any of them does enter service they will be deployed within the Mid East and to Beijing only.

Iranian sanctions are now the strongest and most crippling ever imposed as Iranian banks and credit lines are near completely frozen with EU and US financial organisations.
This cuts far deeper than any industry related sanctions or travel restrictions imposed on specified regime individuals.

Its really is only a matter of time before Iranair are unable to operate into the EU at all because they are unable to collect the fares or pay for any services.
 
na
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:53 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 63):
The answer to that is yes they could be seized by bailiffs acting on behalf of the USA or EU.
Mahran lost a few B744 they were scheduled to get via Blue Sky already.

A shame that one of those that didnt reach Iran has been scrapped because of the sanctions already.
 
rb211-524h
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:43 pm

Quoting AA909 (Reply 40):
Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 39):

Saudia's 743s are RR powered so there is some expertise of the type in the region

Saudi Arabia and Iran may be geographically close, but that's about where the closeness ends ... so this is pretty irrelevant, no offense intended.

But Pakistan has a number of 747-300s with RR engines (ex-CX birds) so I'm guessing they can get the manuals and expertise from there?
 
kaitak
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting rb211-524h (Reply 65):
But Pakistan has a number of 747-300s with RR engines (ex-CX birds) so I'm guessing they can get the manuals and expertise from there?

But why would PIA risk this?

Looks like the vice on Iran is going to keep tightening; Iran Air is probably going to hobble on as best they can, but it is hard to know how they can carry out the kind of heavy maintenance checks that these aircraft need; could they, if they needed to, carry out C and/or D checks without any involvement from Boeing? Would IR be copied in any ADs - very doubtful, I would think.

I do have some sympathy for IR itself, though certainly not for the Iranian government. I guess the best that can be said is that the strength of the sanctions is going to push Iran towards revolution and backlash against the authorities. How long this will take, given the known repressiveness of the regime, is not possible to predict, but it's hard to see how Iran can continue to function in the medium to long term in the face of these sanctions.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:00 pm

Welcome the new 747-300s to the Iran Air fleet. I hope they will do some good years of service for the airline.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
The end of the shah era 747SP's

I would very much like to be "Last to Fly" the Iran Air 747SP.

Any idea how to find out what will be the last flight? Is there any email where I can contact the airline management or flight ops?

The last Singapore Airlines 747-400 flight will be a HKG-SIN this coming friday. I have many friends on board SQ748 and SQ747 special flights.

I would like to do the same with Iran Air when they will last fly their 747SP. It's a no-brainer as I don't need a visa to enter Iran.

Any suggestions and ideas most welcome. I hope others will take interest to be on the IR 747-SP last flight.

  
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haveasafeflight
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:14 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 66):

But why would PIA risk this?

I totally agree. What would PIA's upside be that would outweigh the risks of violating the sanctions against Iran Air?

Unlike Iran Air, PIA maintains active relations with Boeing and Airbus (they currently have a number of 777-300ER's on order) so it just wouldn't make sense for them to take this risk to violate the sanctions.

[Edited 2012-04-03 10:22:28]
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solarflyer22
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 24):
if you don't have the latest manuals for the airplane you shouldn't be operating it.

Ideally yes, but in Africa and Iran this probably happens fairly often.

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 28):
In my opinion any deviation from the exact maintenance specifications ascribed to a particular airplane serial number in the manufacturers manuals, invariably increases the margin of a safety risk.

Yes it does. And one of these 747s might go down because of it.

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 50):
I remember reading somewhere that IR can lease airplanes despite the sanctions, however they prefer to own their planes so that they could do the MX work on them. Can anyone confirm?

I can confirm that they cannot. Anyone that does is violating the sanctions and cannot do business with the US and may be brought up on charges here.

I have read the Treasury sanctions and you cannot sign any contract with an Iranian entity, you can send or receive money, you cannot "invest" new money with an Iranian entity. You can however ask for an exemption/1 time license.

I would be interested to see if they would grant a license to transfer money/manuals in the interest of air safety and civilian life. Knowing the US government, that answer almost certainly is a no. Very unfortunate in my opinion.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:58 pm

The UAE/Dubai want to keep trading with Iran despite the sanctions so I suppose that they will be able to provide spare parts and maintenance to Iran Air for their new 747s.

Quote:
The comments reflect the UAE's aim to continue legitimate trade with its near neighbour even as global sanctions tighten.
While the UAE is not an oil importer, it does still have close links through trade of other goods. Bi-lateral trade between the UAE and Iran is worth about Dh50 billion (US$13.61bn) a year.

http://www.thenational.ae/business/e...t-for-waivers-on-iranian-sanctions

  
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haveasafeflight
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:28 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 39):
Saudia's 743s are RR powered so there is some expertise of the type in the region
Quoting AA909 (Reply 40):
Saudi Arabia and Iran may be geographically close, but that's about where the closeness ends ... so this is pretty irrelevant, no offense intended.

Looks like Saudia is phasing it's 747-300's out to be replaced with 777-300ER's, so not sure how much assistance they could provide. However like PIA, they would have no upside that could possibly compensate for the consequences they would face if they were to violate the sanctions in place against Iran Air:

Saudi 747-300 Scrapped - Walnut Ridge Arkansas USA (by my1le Apr 3 2012 in Civil Aviation)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabian_Airlines
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AirbusA6
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:21 am

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 71):
Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 39):
Saudia's 743s are RR powered so there is some expertise of the type in the region
Quoting AA909 (Reply 40):
Saudi Arabia and Iran may be geographically close, but that's about where the closeness ends ... so this is pretty irrelevant, no offense intended.

Looks like Saudia is phasing it's 747-300's out to be replaced with 777-300ER's, so not sure how much assistance they could provide. However like PIA, they would have no upside that could possibly compensate for the consequences they would face if they were to violate the sanctions in place against Iran Air:

Saudi 747-300 Scrapped - Walnut Ridge Arkansas USA (by my1le Apr 3 2012 in Civil Aviation)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_A...lines

Any assistance wouldn't be official, there must be a massive market in secret parts and assistance.

I'm sure Saudi Arabia wouldn't give Iran help anyway, but what sanctions could the West realistically invoke anyway? Stop buying their oil?
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rutankrd
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:25 pm

Saudi are NO friends of the Iranian Regimes or Shia's (look at Bahrain) in general
They are a leading advocate of the sanctions.
No help will come from Riyadh

Pakistan is more cordial with Tehran than they are with the western powers. Plenty in the ruling elite are actually hostile !

PIA are operating under restrictions for Mx problems as well
 
IR800
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 58):
You need to understand that the maintenance troubles experienced by Iranian airlines are inextricably linked with the embargoes i.e. cause and effect.

Right. But I mean that their problem is directly linked to embargo. AFAIK a British court adjudicated on their confiscation because of the violation of sanctions.
 
haveasafeflight
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 72):
Any assistance wouldn't be official, there must be a massive market in secret parts and assistance.



When they can't but directly from Boeing & Airbus it is inevitable that spares will be obtained from "unofficial" sources - that's nothing new.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 72):
what sanctions could the West realistically invoke anyway? Stop buying their oil?

On what possible grounds would Saudi Arabia be prepared to violate sanctions and possibly risk upsetting it's cosy relationship with the US to support a few burnt out 747-300's that Iran Air has purchased? It's a no-brainer that the risks are just too high, even if they wanted to help, which like you I seriously doubt. On top of all that, let's not forget that Saudia is itself in the process of phasing out it's 747-300's by the end of 2012, so even in the extremely unlikely case that they were prepared to support these airplanes, it would only be a short term solution leaving Iran Air with a serious headache for the long term in terms of maintenance support.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 67):
I would very much like to be "Last to Fly" the Iran Air 747SP.

Any idea how to find out what will be the last flight? Is there any email where I can contact the airline management or flight ops?

Can we really be sure just yet that Iran Air actually intends to replace their existing 747's with these newly acquired 747-300's which in-fact have a higher number of cycles?

Quoting na (Reply 31):

Possible, even likely, as I think the mileage (Flight hours/cycles) of Iran Airs older 747s might actually be lower than that of these almost 10 years younger ex-QF-birds which must have covered 100.000 hours at least. And they know their own birds better anyway from 35 years working on them. These QF 747s could stretch the lifes of the SPs, 742s and 741 for a few years more. And they get better seats now to upgrade the cabins!

Where is the logic in Iran Air purchasing replacement aircraft with higher utilization cycles than the aircraft they are supposed to replace?
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haveasafeflight
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:33 pm

Iran Air's Public Relations Manager, Shahrokh Noushabadi, recently denied that Iran Air has purchased these airplanes:

http://isna.ir/en/news/91011502520/I...es-reports-on-buying-Boeing-planes

Go figure...
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fly707
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:50 pm

Why they don't buy new Boeing or Airbus ??
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fraspotter
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:12 pm

Quoting fly707 (Reply 77):
Why they don't buy new Boeing or Airbus ??

You're kidding right? They can't buy new (or even used) directly from the US or other allied countries due to the trade embargo's already in place. That's what the previous 76 posts were getting at.
 
N1120A
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:31 am

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 2):
The current sanctions prohibit Boeing from providing support for Iran Air's existing Boeing 747's & 727's, so what makes Iran Air think these 747-300's are going to be any different?

Yep. And IR has kept those airplanes in admirable condition.

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 6):
So without the correct manuals how are Iran Air planning on keeping these aircraft safe to fly?

Iran Air has kept a lot of aircraft safe to fly for a long time.

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 14):
The 747-300 is a different ballgame however as Iran Air has no experience whatsoever in maintaining and operating this particular model and is unable to receive support from Boeing to assist with becoming acquainted with the model

Lots of commonality with the -200, which IR has been operating for close to 40 years.

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 19):
But Mahan operate 744's, wouldn't they have the same issue?

AFAIK, those were leased. Sort of like the A320s.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 23):

Are they going to be operating these aircraft, or just using them for spares?

Almost certainly operate.

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 42):
Any thoughts on why they didn't purchase P&W equipped 747's to maintain continuity with their existing fleet?

Availability.

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 49):
So if this is in fact the case, where is the logic in purchasing replacement aircraft with shorter lifespans than the aircraft they are replacing?

Well, remember that the QF aircraft are high hours but probably lower cycles, because of the nature of QF's operation. IR needs the cycles more than the hours, as their flights aren't that long.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 66):

But why would PIA risk this?

Its not really a risk.

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 68):
What would PIA's upside be that would outweigh the risks of violating the sanctions against Iran Air?

I don't think PIA cares, as long as they get paid.

Quoting fly707 (Reply 77):
Why they don't buy new Boeing or Airbus ??

Because of the stupidity of multiple governments. When they are able to order planes, it will almost certainly be Boeing.
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haveasafeflight
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:41 am

Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 78):
They can't buy new (or even used) directly from the US or other allied countries due to the trade embargo's already in place.

Exactly. Interestingly the head of Iran's CAO, Reza Nakhjavani, recently announced that the country's entire fleet is going to be replaced - I'll believe it when I see it:

Iran Fleet To Be Replaced Or Lifespan Extended? (by haveasafeflight Apr 16 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting N1120A (Reply 79):
I don't think PIA cares, as long as they get paid.

I'm not sure about that. PIA has long standing relationships with Boeing and Airbus (amongst others) and has outstanding orders with Boeing for 777-300ER's so I'm really not sure that they would be able to flagrantly violate US sanctions and "get away with it" without repercussions. In my opinion the repercussions far outweigh any upside they would see from providing manuals for these airplanes. If we were talking about millions of dollars, that may possibly be a tempting proposition for PIA, but I don't really think that they can command that sort of money for photocopied manuals, especially since they aren't even customized for Iran Air's Airplanes.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know roughly how much Boeing charges for it's customized documentation service, where it customizes all the documents to the individual airplane serial numbers for the entire fleet of the airline?
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:51 pm

Who says IR doesn't have the manuals ? Any aircraft that is sold is accompanied by its manuals, maintenance logs etc etc etc. Any sale without such documents would be a major headache for all parties involved. Knowing QF i'm sure whichever party bought these birds from them was provided with all the documentation there was. I'd highly doubt the documentation wouldn't have accompanied these birds to Iran. Besides, i doubt IR is such a hack operation saying ''Sure, we'll take those planes & figure everything out ourselves''  .. Those people will have made the effort to ensure safe operations as best they can.

Plus manuals are hardly classified material. A lot of people in maintenance & engineering have easy access & in this day & age a lot of it has been digitized. Know someone in maintenance & engineering ? Chances are they'll be able to provide you with a lot of things. Heck, even I've seen some manuals just because people had an extended interest in systems after getting down with more detailed aircraft in FS2004  .. and i have nothing to do with maintenance & engineering whatsoever. Now such things maybe won't be 100% specific for your particular aircraft & needs but i'm pretty sure you'd be able to go a long way with that.

[Edited 2012-04-18 10:52:24]
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haveasafeflight
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:20 am

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 81):
Who says IR doesn't have the manuals ?

As far as I am aware no one has suggested during the course of this thread that Iran Air doesn't have manuals for these airplanes.

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 81):
Plus manuals are hardly classified material. A lot of people in maintenance & engineering have easy access & in this day & age a lot of it has been digitized.

I don't mean to be rude, but it appears that you have either misunderstood or not read what has actually been said relating to these manuals during the course of this thread. The issue here is that of the customized updates to the manuals to ensure the continued safe operation of the aircraft to which they relate. We all know that Iran Air can't buy anything from Boeing because of sanctions, so that raises serious concerns about Iran Air's ability to maintain these airplanes to the manufacturers latest safety standards, as outlined in the customized manual updates. Now, if Iran Air could receive updated customized manuals from Boeing this wouldn't be an issue, but unfortunately they can't and in my mind that raises questions about the safety of these airplanes RELATIVE to similar airplanes belonging to operators that continue to receive direct support from Boeing.

Forgive me for quoting myself, but it's worth re-touching on what has been said regarding the manuals, instead of what hasn't:

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 12):

To address your point, the manuals may very well accompany the airplane, however those manuals are valid only so long as the manufacturer, i.e. Boeing does not issue revisions. Sooner or later Boeing will issue mandatory revisions to the manuals which will make all of the previous manuals obsolete and therefore by definition unsafe for continued use.
Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 12):
The point I was making above was that no "front company" or intermediary will be able to obtain from Boeing the customized manuals required for the safe operation of Iran Air's 747-300's as these manuals are only ever supplied to the aircraft operator. That is a problem for Iran Air as Boeing won't sell them due to sanctions. I think this could give rise to serious safety risks if Iran Air continues to operate these airplanes without the mandatory updates to the Boeing manuals.
Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 28):
Suggesting that bribing someone to provide manuals belonging to another airline is somehow equivalent to utilizing customized manuals designed specifically by Boeing to the exact specifications of each aircraft serial number is pure fantasy. There are simply too many permutations involved in the different customer specifications, configurations and materials, not to mention maintenance, overhaul and upgrade history to make another airlines aircrafts 100% identical. In my opinion any deviation from the exact maintenance specifications ascribed to a particular airplane serial number in the manufacturers manuals, invariably increases the margin of a safety risk.

I am not suggesting that the paperwork in and of itself makes an airplane safe or unsafe. The paperwork is simply a medium by which the manufacturers share information with the operators on how best to maintain their airplanes for safe operation. It is the APPLICATION or NON-APPLICATION of THIS INFORMATION amongst other things that effects the relative safety of an airplane.

If for any reason an operator is unable to obtain updated maintenance information from the manufacturer (i.e. Iran Air and Boeing), and continues to operate the airplane, then those airplanes are not as safe as they could be, relative to aircraft which have updated their maintenance procedures according to the manufacturers latest recommendations. I believe that the manufacturer knows best when it comes to maintaining the aircraft - they built it after all.

Lastly, for anyone thinking that the maintenance of these airplanes will fit snugly along side Iran Air's 747-100/200 & SP's we need to bear in mind that Iran Air has zero experience in operating the 747-300 variant, and on top of that, again has zero experience with the Rolls-Royce RB211 engine. Far from ideal when they are prevented from working with both Boeing and Rolls-Royce.

Here's what Boeing has to say:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/avi...ance-manuals/customer-changes.html
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chieft
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:18 am

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 82):
Lastly, for anyone thinking that the maintenance of these airplanes will fit snugly along side Iran Air's 747-100/200 & SP's we need to bear in mind that Iran Air has zero experience in operating the 747-300 variant, and on top of that, again has zero experience with the Rolls-Royce RB211 engine. Far from ideal when they are prevented from working with both Boeing and Rolls-Royce.

I think that is exactly the point! Thanks!

The engines could become the weakest point: No experience, no parts. They must build up a complete new spares stock for the engines.

Technically the -300 is basically a -200 with extended upper deck and higher MTOW.

Boeing writes:

747-300 - Moving Forward With Significant Changes

The 747-300 entered commercial service in 1983, and was the first to integrate the most significant changes of the 747 Classics. These changes included an extended upper deck and improved engines with a reduced fuel burn of 25 percent per passenger. In addition, passenger capacity increased 10 percent by extending the upper deck and relocating the new straight stairway to the rear of the upper deck (prior models had a spiral-shaped staircase in the center of the upper deck). Boeing delivered 81 747-300s in passenger, combi and short-range configurations, the last in 1990.

[Edited 2012-04-19 02:25:13]
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Fabo
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:46 am

Quoting na (Reply 9):
Interesting. Wonder why the plane carries the Samair logo, an operator with (again, ex-QF) 737s registered in Slovakia.

It was quoted as operated by Al Sayegh before, that is Sayegh Aviation Group, that is Sam Air International parent company.

btw. I think it was not Qantas but Australian Airlines.
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9MMPQ
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:21 pm

Not being rude here either but please bare with me for a moment as i thing we have 2 things going on...

1st .. the talk about customization is about changes an operator would like to see in its manuals. As your link to the Boeing site shows they call this the ''costumer originated changes'' which if IR would have any requests would need to be reviewed by Boeing before they can be certified and included into that operators manual.

Such customizations aren't necessary for safe operations. Without customizations it just means the operator has to follow the standard Boeing manuals in every way rather then have some of their own adaptations certified by Boeing & included in the manuals. Since IR makes due with whatever they can get their hands on & they know very well their not going to get anything from Boeing they can happily continue with whatever QF had outlined in the manuals.

2nd .. and what you have also touched upon, the revisions to the maintenance manuals. Here i'm thinking about airworthiness directives or service bulletins issued by the manufacturer (should any problems be found) which refer to anything that should be addressed by all operators of a specific type in order to continue safe operations. Those are obviously the problem.

I'm not sure about airworthiness directives ( Could & would you withhold those from a humane point of view ? Whole other discussion obviously ! ) but i do see them not getting any service bulletins from Boeing. Of course as these would be given to other 747-300 operators i just think that somehow some way IR could find a way to obtain them from those operators. I just happen to think that this is possible in a much more discreet or sneaky way without hardly anyone knowing about it.

Now i'm wondering  how many revisions could you still expect on the 747-300 ? The type has been around for some time & QF would have been up to date until these planes left the fleet.

Iran's ability to seemingly make everything work (both military & civilian technology) has always fascinated me & i have a feeling it won't be any different for this aircraft type.

[Edited 2012-04-19 10:23:17]
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haveasafeflight
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting Fabo (Reply 84):

btw. I think it was not Qantas but Australian Airlines.

As far as I am aware, Australian Airlines only ever operated 767-300ER's so which airplanes are you referring to?
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:25 pm

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 86):
As far as I am aware, Australian Airlines only ever operated 767-300ER's so which airplanes are you referring to?

The 737 of Sam Air of Slovakia. It has a customer code of Australian, not Qantas. Maybe they were called different then, Trans Australia or something was it?
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haveasafeflight
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:39 am

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 85):
2nd .. and what you have also touched upon, the revisions to the maintenance manuals. Here i'm thinking about airworthiness directives or service bulletins issued by the manufacturer (should any problems be found) which refer to anything that should be addressed by all operators of a specific type in order to continue safe operations. Those are obviously the problem.

By default, the airworthiness directives or service bulletins which are applicable to an operators airplane serial numbers are incorporated by Boeing into the updated customized manuals. This provides the operator with a great sense of well being as they know that they are as closely aligned to the manufacturers safety recommendations as possible. Let's not forget:

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 28):

I am not suggesting that the paperwork in and of itself makes an airplane safe or unsafe. The paperwork is simply a medium by which the manufacturers share information with the operators on how best to maintain their airplanes for safe operation. It is the APPLICATION or NON-APPLICATION of THIS INFORMATION amongst other things that effects the relative safety of an airplane.

If for any reason an operator is unable to obtain information from the airplane manufacturer, which is critical, or at least relevant to the safe operation of their specific airplane serial numbers, then in my mind the continued operation of those airplanes represents a serious safety risk relative to airplanes kept up to date with the manufacturers latest safety standards, and in the interests of safety for the passengers and crew should not be operated. Period.

Put another way:

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 28):
any deviation from the exact maintenance specifications ascribed to a particular airplane serial number in the manufacturers manuals, invariably increases the margin of a safety risk.
Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 85):
Iran's ability to seemingly make everything work (both military & civilian technology) has always fascinated me & i have a feeling it won't be any different for this aircraft type.

I too am surprised by Iran's ability to maintain, and in some cases upgrade their 30+ year old hardware. But bear in mind that the major factor in this is their FAMILIARITY with the equipment, over the many years of operation and maintenance. Don't forget that Iran received FULL FACTORY TECHNICAL SUPPORT & TRAINING for all of the equipment they purchased before the revolution in 1979, so the technical foundation, and the establishment of best practices for supporting their equipment was cemented in place with the direct assistance of the western manufacturers and they continue to function from that.

When you inject new UNFAMILIAR equipment into the mix, i.e. Rolls-Royce RB211 engines, I don't see how the same level of capability will be there, and think that they will struggle to maintain such equipment to the manufacturers ascribed standards - they have no experience base for this engine type! In light of the new sanctions imposed on Iran Air, how likely is it that they can competently train their technicians on the maintenance of the RB211? It's not like they can call up xyz training provider and book a bunch of their technicians on B1 & B2 training courses - they have been sanctioned!

Time will tell how successful Iran Air are with these airplanes, but I for one question the wisdom of acquiring aircraft types with which they have zero experience, with engines types they have zero experience with, and produced by companies that are prevented from providing them with technical support.

If people's lives weren't at risk I guess it wouldn't bother me so much.
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skyhawkmatthew
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:50 am

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 86):
As far as I am aware, Australian Airlines only ever operated 767-300ER's so which airplanes are you referring to?

There have been two different "Australian Airlines". The second was Qantas' leisure-carrier operation of the early-mid 2000s that did indeed only operate five or six of Qantas' 763s. The first was the late-1980s rebranding of Trans Australia Airlines to Australian Airlines...

Quoting Fabo (Reply 87):
It has a customer code of Australian, not Qantas. Maybe they were called different then, Trans Australia or something was it?

...who subsequently took delivery of several 737-376 and -476 (some of which are still in service: VH-TJ*) before merging with Qantas in the mid-'90s.

[Edited 2012-04-20 01:51:27]

[Edited 2012-04-20 01:52:41]
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haveasafeflight
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting skyhawkmatthew (Reply 89):

There have been two different "Australian Airlines". The second was Qantas' leisure-carrier operation of the early-mid 2000s that did indeed only operate five or six of Qantas' 763s. The first was the late-1980s rebranding of Trans Australia Airlines to Australian Airlines...

I had forgotten about them, thanks for clearing that up.
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garpd
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:05 pm

Regardless how they got the 743s, how they're getting the log books, or how they'll maintain them, they have them.

I think once painted, they'll be rather elegant:

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/7513/iran743.png
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globalflyer777
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:05 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 91):
I think once painted, they'll be rather elegant:

Aesthetics are one thing, the safety of the passengers and crews is completely another, and IMHO a far more important aspect.
 
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garpd
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting globalflyer777 (Reply 92):

Of course, where do I state it is not?
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globalflyer777
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:57 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 93):
Of course, where do I state it is not?

Your post appears to show a bias towards aesthetics vs maintenance, which in my mind translates into aesthetics vs safety:

Quoting garpd (Reply 91):
Regardless how they got the 743s, how they're getting the log books, or how they'll maintain them, they have them.
Quoting garpd (Reply 91):
I think once painted, they'll be rather elegant:

A fancy paint job is of little use to an airplane if the airline's technicians are unable to maintain it to safe standards.

Iran Air's existing Boeing fleet has been black-listed from entering European airspace on safety grounds related to deficiencies identified in their maintenance program. This is for airplanes that they know inside out and have operated and maintained for 30 odd years. I am genuinely concerned by the prospect of them operating and maintaining aircraft which they have no experience with. No need to go into further detail here as it's all been said above in earlier posts.
 
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting globalflyer777 (Reply 94):
Your post appears to show a bias towards aesthetics vs maintenance, which in my mind translates into aesthetics vs safety:

No, my comments are in response to the discussions as to how they got the aircraft, how they'll get the manuals, etc.

Do not presume to teach me what I already know. I am fully aware of the safety aspects and I am not down playing them.
But there is little people here can do about it.

So, I moved on to aesthetics.

[Edited 2012-04-22 07:28:56]
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globalflyer777
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 95):
So, I moved on to aesthetics.

I think I see the logic - substitute the most important part of aircraft operations, i.e. the part involving the safety of the lives of the passengers and crew, with the least significant part - the paint job 
Quoting garpd (Reply 95):
Do not presume to teach me what I already know. I am fully aware of the safety aspects and I am not down playing them.

You're not exactly down playing them, you're writing about fancy paint jobs instead   I find it interesting, given your claimed awareness of safety issues that you should choose to write about a relatively insignificant aspect of the aircraft (it's livery) and ignore all else.

Quoting garpd (Reply 91):
they have them.

Iran Air may very well "have them" but beyond thinking about the aircraft's paint job, have you considered the possibility that there may be factors at play that impact upon just how long Iran Air "have them" for?

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 63):
The answer to that is yes they could be seized by bailiffs acting on behalf of the USA or EU.
Mahran lost a few B744 they were scheduled to get via Blue Sky already.
Quoting na (Reply 64):
A shame that one of those that didnt reach Iran has been scrapped because of the sanctions already.


That fancy livery isn't going to be much use if the aircraft are impounded, or prematurely wind up on the scrap heap (like the Mahan Air Boeing 747-400 example cited) due to chronic difficulties in maintaining the airplanes as a result of sanctions.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 12):

To address your point, the manuals may very well accompany the airplane, however those manuals are valid only so long as the manufacturer, i.e. Boeing does not issue revisions. Sooner or later Boeing will issue mandatory revisions to the manuals which will make all of the previous manuals obsolete and therefore by definition unsafe for continued use.

The manuals are typically required to be followed by regulatory agencies to maintain the safety and airworthiness of the airplane. If an airplane is not following the properly prescribed original equipment manufacturer maintenance program, then it does not meet ICAO standards. A regulatory agency (in this case government of Iran) does not have to enforce the minimum ICAO standards for operations. However if they do not, typically airlines that fly under their regulatory oversight are typically banned from operating within certain ICAO members. This is why airlines in countries in Africa, Indonesia, etc are on the EU and FAA blacklists.

What I am saying is that likely if they do not have the proper maintenance program in place because of the various blocks put forth by sanctions, Iran Air may have these airplanes banned from flying to the EU etc.

Maintenance documentation is important because the regulatory agency puts faith in the engineering resources at Iran Air to maintain their airplanes. They will not have full support and will not have the capability to run a maintenance program to the latest Maintenance Steering Group standards. This is obviously clear from the safety record in Iran that the airlines do not follow international standards.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 27):

In any case, paperwork does not make a plane safe or unsafe. AF447 crashed with all the paperwork in order as have countless planes and crews.

A well maintained airplane is not necessarily safe, but a poorly maintained airplane is never safe. Proper maintenance only keeps an airplane as safe and airworthy as it was designed to be. Maintenance can never make an airplane safer than it was when it was delivered.
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globalflyer777
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 98):
The manuals are typically required to be followed by regulatory agencies to maintain the safety and airworthiness of the airplane. If an airplane is not following the properly prescribed original equipment manufacturer maintenance program, then it does not meet ICAO standards. A regulatory agency (in this case government of Iran) does not have to enforce the minimum ICAO standards for operations. However if they do not, typically airlines that fly under their regulatory oversight are typically banned from operating within certain ICAO members. This is why airlines in countries in Africa, Indonesia, etc are on the EU and FAA blacklists.

What I am saying is that likely if they do not have the proper maintenance program in place because of the various blocks put forth by sanctions, Iran Air may have these airplanes banned from flying to the EU etc.

Maintenance documentation is important because the regulatory agency puts faith in the engineering resources at Iran Air to maintain their airplanes. They will not have full support and will not have the capability to run a maintenance program to the latest Maintenance Steering Group standards. This is obviously clear from the safety record in Iran that the airlines do not follow international standards.

Totally agree with you. The regulator in question concerning these airplanes is the Civil Aviation Organization of Iran (CAO) headed by Reza Nakhjavani. Running a search through Google will tell you pretty much all you need to know about this outfit. I've made a couple of posts on the following thread which highlight's the CAO's shocking indifference over the investigation (which they are responsible for) into Iran Air Boeing 727 flight 277 disaster which claimed the lives of 77 passengers and crew:

732 Crash In Pakistan (by cabso1 Apr 20 2012 in Civil Aviation)

So whilst some may think that the safety aspects have been over discussed in this post, the fact remains that the safety aspects are far more important than a paint job. For those who disagree, perhaps your time would be better spent playing with a flight simulator, or better still, photoshop  

[Edited 2012-04-22 15:14:02 by srbmod]
 
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garpd
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RE: Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:38 am

Quoting globalflyer777 (Reply 96):
I think I see the logic - substitute the most important part of aircraft operations, i.e. the part involving the safety of the lives of the passengers and crew, with the least significant part - the paint job
Quoting globalflyer777 (Reply 96):
You're not exactly down playing them, you're writing about fancy paint jobs instead I find it interesting, given your claimed awareness of safety issues that you should choose to write about a relatively insignificant aspect of the aircraft (it's livery) and ignore all else.
Quoting globalflyer777 (Reply 96):
Iran Air may very well "have them" but beyond thinking about the aircraft's paint job, have you considered the possibility that there may be factors at play that impact upon just how long Iran Air "have them" for?
Quoting globalflyer777 (Reply 96):
That fancy livery isn't going to be much use if the aircraft are impounded, or prematurely wind up on the scrap heap (like the Mahan Air Boeing 747-400 example cited) due to chronic difficulties in maintaining the airplanes as a result of sanctions.
Quoting globalflyer777 (Reply 98):

So whilst some may think that the safety aspects have been over discussed in this post, the fact remains that the safety aspects are far more important than a paint job. For those who disagree, perhaps your time would be better spent playing with a flight simulator, or better still, photoshop

What does chewing over the same things achieve here? Discuss the safety aspects by all means, but nothing you say here will change a thing. IranAir still has those 743s, they still have the manuals, they will still do whatever they plan to do with them. You can do nothing to prevent that.

All I did was add another subject of discussion to an otherwise repetitive thread.
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