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DocLightning
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting N757ST (Reply 16):
Pilots that are diagnosed with type 2 diabetes that does not require insulin or other medications are able to hold a class 1 medical.

That is very different. Type 2 diabetics do not get hypoglycemic. Type 1's do, and when that happens they can have sudden alterations in mental status including loss of consciousness and seizures.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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flymia
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 50):
Seriously though, this is scary stuff, when the pilot loses his mind....The CAPTAIN of the airplane...

I hope he's ok, and gets the proper treatment so it won't happen again.

Agreed and thankfully the worst happened OUTSIDE of the cockpit. Great move by the F/O and honestly by the captain himself for at least leaving the cockpit for whatever the reason.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
m11stephen
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting db373 (Reply 40):
Are we really making the argument here that this man who was allegedly banging on the cockpit door and screaming about terrorists in the middle of the flight should not have been restrained because he may or may not have had a medical condition? So now we're supposed to assess at 30,000 feet whether the person causing a danger to the flight has a medical condition or not BEFORE we restrain him? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I don't think law enforcement agencies check someone's medical history before placing them under arrest, so to argue that the passengers and flight attendants on JetBlue should is just preposterous ESPECIALLY when this all occurred in the air.

In my defense I did not read the part about the captain screaming terrorstic statements. Also, an F/A did try and calm him down and quietly walk him to the back of the aircraft but that was to no avail. Given the circumstances it sounds like the crew did take appropriate action. I do apologize for my premature statement.

Quoting flymia (Reply 47):
Seems like the 100% best move to me. What should the FA do? Unless there is an Air Marshall is on the aircraft the Captain has the "law enforcement" authority on the plane. Well this takes him out, FO was flying, next person to give instructions is certainly an FA. They are on the plane to ensure safety they did a great job.

F/As are placed in an awkward position. They are required to make split second decisions when emergencies like this happen yet they neither have law enforcement training or authority to handle these types of situations. I'm not familiar with JetBlue's F/A training program however federal requirements, which have been widely publicized, for F/A security training are minimal. In regards to the "Restrain Him" order what else is the F/A going to do once they have established that their captain is having some sort of medical emergency and has gone out of control? Should the F/As just stand on the sidelines and watch their captain cause chaos and physical violence in the cabin? Should the F/As, with little self defense training, try to handle it on their own? Or should the F/As call on strong able bodied passengers who would be the best equipped to restrain someone? It sounds like the F/As took the best course of action and did everything they could given the circumstances.
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rampart
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:32 am

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 30):
I have more compassion and humanity for the people that had to endure this event.

The people "enduring" the event were happily videoing the whole thing with their (not supposed to use) smartphones. Probably need restraint as well.

Clearly he needed some kind of control. FAs could either have medical training or authorization to administer a sedative, or law enforcement authority to excert physical or deadly force.
 
m11stephen
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting rampart (Reply 54):
Clearly he needed some kind of control. FAs could either have medical training or authorization to administer a sedative, or law enforcement authority to excert physical or deadly force.

Pilots, F/As, passengers, off duty law enforcement officers, etc. all have the right to use physical or deadly force against an attacker if the safety of the aircraft or it's occupants is in imminent danger. I forget the name of the aviation act but a law was incorporated into that act that specifically protects anyone responding to a severe threat that endangers the safety of the aircraft or its occupants from civil or criminal penalties. I.E. if a F/A uses deadly hand to hand combat techniques to defend the flight deck against an attacker and, as a result, kills the perpetrator they are immune from any civil or criminal penalties.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:46 am

According to this article, http://jalopnik.com/5896951/pilot-wh...was-one-of-jetblues-oldest-pilots, the name of the pilot is Clayton Osbon, and is one of B6's most senior pilots; beginning to fly with them 3 months after beginning operations. Apparently, he was with NetJets before. He was B6's "Flight Standards Captain", whatever that means...

[Edited 2012-03-27 18:48:45]
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PHX787
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:36 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 52):
Agreed and thankfully the worst happened OUTSIDE of the cockpit. Great move by the F/O and honestly by the captain himself for at least leaving the cockpit for whatever the reason.

Apparently, he was forced OUT of the cockpit, and into the lav or something
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varsity
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:37 am

The aircraft is CN 2141 Tail # N581JB "100% Blue"
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SXDFC
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting varsity (Reply 58):
The aircraft is CN 2141 Tail # N581JB "100% Blue"

Aviation Herald has it as N796JB, a brand new A320 that's only a few weeks old..

http://avherald.com/h?article=44d15583&opt=0
 
ltbewr
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:23 am

The local news here in NY City has reported that the pilot in question has rented a room in a house for 10 years not far from JFK, got along with his landlord, neighbors in that area. He apparently has a wife that has asked for people to remember there are several possible sides to the story.

A number of people here have discussed some health requirements to pass the psychical to hold a commercial pilot's license. I wonder what regulations exist as to psychological and mental health issues as to being able to have a valid license?

Added info: ABC TV's 'Nightline' program added more to this story: Apparently the Pilot started to act erratically inside the cockpit, hitting switches, possibly putting the aircraft at such risk, that the co-pilot 'tricked' him to leave the cockpit and locked up the door to keep him from causing a potentially disaster. He called a F/A to get the attenion of the JetBlue pilot that was a pax on the flight, then was the behavior of the pilot we already know about.

'Nightline' cited the possibility that if the co-pilot didn't take the action he did, there could have been an Egyptair crash (also from JFK) or SilkAir crash situation where there could have been a pilot deliberately crashing the plane (I know that is a very controversial as to the Egyptair crash)

[Edited 2012-03-27 20:49:16]

[Edited 2012-03-27 20:50:33]
 
Viscount724
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:26 am

The B6 incident sounds quite a bit like the AC incident in November 2008, where the first officer on an AC 763 en route from YYZ to LHR had to be forcibly removed from the cockpit and restrained after some type of mental breakdown. The captain diverted the aircraft to SNN. One of the female flight attendants who held a commercial pilot's license sat in the cockpit during the landing to assist the captain.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=271916
 
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fxramper
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:31 am

Maybe he found out his contract isn't getting renewed and he flipped out. Either way, glad the sky posse tuned him up. I would have done the same thing, medical or not. No room at 35,000 to go bouncing off cockpit doors.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:10 am

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 53):
F/As are placed in an awkward position. They are required to make split second decisions when emergencies like this happen yet they neither have law enforcement training or authority to handle these types of situations. I'm not familiar with JetBlue's F/A training program however federal requirements, which have been widely publicized, for F/A security training are minimal. In regards to the "Restrain Him" order what else is the F/A going to do once they have established that their captain is having some sort of medical emergency and has gone out of control? Should the F/As just stand on the sidelines and watch their captain cause chaos and physical violence in the cabin? Should the F/As, with little self defense training, try to handle it on their own? Or should the F/As call on strong able bodied passengers who would be the best equipped to restrain someone? It sounds like the F/As took the best course of action and did everything they could given the circumstances.

THANK YOU! You are spot on! I think the cabin crew deserve kudos for their handling of the situation. Anyone here that thinks they didn't handle the situation correctly should, for a moment, put themselves in the position of the cabin crew. The person that's in charge of their airplane has been locked out of the cockpit and is ranting and raving in the cabin, making incoherent statements about a bomb, terrorists and Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. The Flight Attendants had to make some split second decisions, keeping in mind the safety and well being of those placed in their charge in the cabin, as well as the person that was in charge of their flight just moments before. They did the best they could and probably the best anybody could. If a similar situation presented itself with an ordinary passenger causing the disruption we would all hope that the FA's would respond in the same manner. Kudos to the cabin crew!!!! Kudos to the FO for getting the Captain out of the cockpit!!!!!
 
m11stephen
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:08 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 64):

It's simply amazing how well the cabin crew and co-pilot coordinated with each other to get the captain out of the flight deck and then get the off duty JetBlue pilot into the flight deck. Although I'm not an F/A, if I was one, I couldn't think of any situation worse then this one occurring on one of my flights. This is obviously not something F/As or pilots are at all trained to handle and this crew had to completely improvise everything they did. Unlike the recent AA F/A incident where passenger safety was never compromised the safety of the passengers on this flight would have definitely been jeopardized had the crew not taken the quick and decisive actions they did. Who knows what the captain might have tried to do had the co-pilot not "lured" him out of the flight deck.

In some ways this situation was even more terrifying for passengers and crew then a hijacking would be. At least F/As and flight crew members receive some training to handle a hijacking and there are set procedures and actions for them to take to mitigate the risk to the safety of the aircraft and its occupants. There are no procedures and no training to handle something like this.
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EY460
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:37 am

First of all I have I am very symphatetic towards the Captain. He had a sort of break-down and now his life is compromised. Then I believe that the situation has been handled very well by the Jetblue crew. But what if this captain was authorised to carry a gun? Let's not forget we are all human being and that something may go wrong at any time. I'm 35 and I had panic attacks 3 or 4 times in my life, always when I was ill. It's difficult to describe how you feel in those moments, but everything seems lost and you start acting strangly and saying things without sense. For me it happened two or three times when I was a kid and had a very high temperature. So a medical condition might be triggering it. The last time it happened last year when I was in hospital after the bike accident. In this case the loads of medication I was taking might have been triggering it.
 
Geezer
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:04 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 32):
Come to think of it, isnt this the second public breakdown of a B6 crew member? The B6 FA that opened the emergency slide and went down the slide as pax werfe boarding?

Possibly, is there something going on in the B6 corporate culture that, possibly, that helps cause these meltdowns?

Hold it just a minute...........Yes, B6 did have a male FA pop a slide, and went down the slide with a beer in hand; so what ?
This was CLEARLY a totally "wacko" individual, who would have done something stupid, whether he worked for an airline, or what ever he did; I really think trying to compare that ridiculous incident with this event is uncalled for. As for the more recent AA female FA who "flipped out"..........as far as I'm aware, that incident has still never been reported on, by anyone in any sort of "official position" to be doing so; also..........how many airliners fly hither & yon, day in, day out, with heaven only knows how many pax........the first "incident"..........the idiot who went down the slide.........I really don't think anyone in a position of authority reads anything into that, other than that a wacko who never should have been hired to start with, is now out of aviation, and will not be missed !

People.......there are a hell of a lot of people working for the airline industry ! I think most of them would agree, this incident with the B6 Captain, as unusual and as unfortunate as it most certainly is, will be completely investigated, looked into, and dealt with by people who are qualified to do so. Other than that, I think attempting to see this business with the B6 Captain as being seen as part of a "trend" is totally ridiculous.


Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 64):
THANK YOU! You are spot on! I think the cabin crew deserve kudos for their handling of the situation. Anyone here that thinks they didn't handle the situation correctly should, for a moment, put themselves in the position of the cabin

I totally agree with everything in this reply...........I think the pax on that B6 flight were very fortunate the FO, the F/A, and the deadheading Captain did the remarkable job they are trained to do under the circumstances.

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
Goldenshield
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:33 am

Well, this explains to me why, when I flew through AMA yesterday, I swore that I had seen a JetBlue tail.
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soon7x7
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:36 am

If I'm not mistaken, didn't the FAA recently adopt some "Anti - Depressant" drugs as non disqualifying drugs consumed by Flight Crew members? If so then perhaps side effects blew out on this one, if in fact he was consuming such a drug type. Obviously pure speculation but certainly a potential reality. Perhaps the FAA's acceptance...not a good idea. I had a friend that was a retired NYC cop and worked in movies on the side, had everything going her way ' cept her depression. They put her on Paxil, well last year she hung herself. So much for "Anti Depressive" pharmaceuticals. By the way...she desperately tried to get off the stuff and she could not. And it is no secret how many individuals in Aviation are prescribed drugs and go to work while on them. As witnessed some bizarre behavior of recent on airliners by crew members. This rarely was ever the case years ago.       .....  Wow!
 
tonystan
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:06 am

How very sad for the poor man. I think the FO did the right thing whatever he/she did to get him out of the Flight deck, unfortunatly it would appear he was simply sent back to a pack of hungry over the top and gun ho lions!

Why oh WHY does modern society think it is acceptable to take out a camera and film every random event that occurs? The cabin crew member was right when she shouted down that we dont need pictures of this.

Hope he gets the help he needs.
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planesmith
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:18 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 22):
Folks, let's all give the guy a break. Something profoundly disruptive has clearly happened in his life, most likely derailed a presumably successful and promising career with a good company.

Amen...
 
PanHAM
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:33 am

The pilot should have called in sick that morning. But then again, one always is wiser after leaving City Hall.

The video is posted in German on line papers as well, what you see from the one could also be interpreted that a dozen unruly passengers are standing in the aisle and a FA finally tells them to sit down. That they had a Sgt. Tackleberry on the flight did not make it safer, he could have killed the pilot who seemed to have a medical distortion. There are other way to deal with that, obviously not in America.

What the pilot may have said or not is colported by people who may have heard only fractions of a sentence. He may have been upset about the fact that his FO locked him out of the cockpit. In times of the christian seafaring this was called "mutiny" and in many countries up until not so long ago the penalty was death. Quite understandable that a captain was not too happy about that.

OK, that was just another look at things.

.
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penguins
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:41 am

I hope he is okay. It is pretty horrible to go through that, I assume. Do you think he will be flying again soon with B6? For some reason, I doubt it.
 
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Dano1977
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:45 am

I do hope the pilot concerned gets all the help he needs be it medical or other.

Wasn't there a case a few years ago, when a pilot started acting strangely, then just flat out went into a rage. Had to be dragged out of the flight deck and restrained. It then came to light, the pilot had a Brain Tumor, which was the cause of his deterioration.
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highflier92660
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:00 pm

This morning's Good Morning America on ABC announced that several of the passengers were flying to Las Vegas to attend a security conference. That certainly explains why the video showed passengers that looked like NFL linemen and why this may have been the most fortuitous of circumstances to have encountered a crazed cockpit crewman.

I noted the passenger interviewed on GMA acted so nonchalant "I cut-off his windpipe until his knees buckled" that it almost sounded as if it were a little trick he learned as a guard at Rikers Island.

[Edited 2012-03-28 05:26:44]
 
softrally
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:12 pm

Aargh!! The school blocked that link... for the reason "Portal sites not allowed"  
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SeeTheWorld
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:17 pm

One report is saying that this senior pilot sold diet pills on the side ... I wouldn't be surprised if that might be a part of the explanation ...
 
PanHAM
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:22 pm

on the side, what amazes me is that the full name of the pilot is revealed to the public. Aren't there laws to protect the privacy of people? One can sometimes argue about data protection laws in Europe, but in this case such laws are good, the privacy of the family is protected that way. Obviously in the US no one cares about that wife and children are not liable.
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rfields5421
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:30 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 80):
Aren't there laws to protect the privacy of people?

Not really.

Since he is in FBI custody, a public charge has to be made to hold him.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
rampart
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 72):
Why oh WHY does modern society think it is acceptable to take out a camera and film every random event that occurs? The cabin crew member was right when she shouted down that we dont need pictures of this.

This is why I don't know the full story. I refuse to view that video in full. I saw the 15 second clip on the news, I think when they had him restrained. I have to agree that the crew did a remarkable and coordinated job of controling the situation. I'm still concerned about the forced restraint. It's not going to turn out well one of these times, in that a ill person, with some sort of attack, is going to die because of improper restraint, particularly if those restraining are making the uninformed assumptions many here are making.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 76):
I do hope the pilot concerned gets all the help he needs be it medical or other.

Glad to see some sympathy for this individual, from several here. Really awful for this guy. Pretty damn scary for the passengers and crew, too. Except for those composed enough to be recording it for the whole damned world.  
 
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fxramper
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:30 pm

...something in the water up in the air ? FoxNews is reporting a pax on CLT-RSW freaked out on cabin crew and attacked them before being wrestled to the ground and restrained. Again, any passenger, crew member, or pilot and flips out at 37,000 ft is guaranteed to have a sky posse tune them (justified).

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/28...r-freakouts-put-airlines-on-alert/
 
QualityDr
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 45):
I would give thanks to the sound thinking of the co-pilot, realizing that a potentially dangerous situation was occurring took sound actions per his training and to the sheer luck that an off-duty pilot was available.

I agree on the astuteness of the First Officer's actions. While it might be "lucky" that an off-duty pilot was available, I feel the pilot flying would have safely landed the aircraft by himself.

Would the off-duty pilot have to be certified in the type of plane, or, given the nature of the incident, this wouldn't matter?

Curiosity: Was this declared an emergency (Mayday), or an urgent situation (pan-pan)? I'm trying to learn about these differences. I've read through the thread; apologies if I missed this...
All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure. -- Mark Twain
 
werdywerd
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting qualitydr (Reply 86):
Curiosity: Was this declared an emergency (Mayday), or an urgent situation (pan-pan)? I'm trying to learn about these differences. I've read through the thread; apologies if I missed this...

You can listen to the ATC Audio here:

http://youtu.be/u8kZK2s6GJw



[Edited 2012-03-28 08:21:34]

[Edited 2012-03-28 08:21:55]
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:29 pm

Quoting qualitydr (Reply 86):
Would the off-duty pilot have to be certified in the type of plane, or, given the nature of the incident, this wouldn't matter? Curiosity: Was this declared an emergency (Mayday), or an urgent situation (pan-pan)? I'm trying to learn about these differences. I've read through the thread; apologies if I missed this...

The off duty pilot would need not to be qualified in type. The only requirement most pilots would demand is that the person is a pilot for a US FAR 121 carrier.

Those type of distinctions are not commonly used in the US (mayday vs panpan). Most likely the FO declared an emergency with ATC. If he did not, his dispatcher would have upon learning of the captains incapacitation.
 
QualityDr
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
Type 2 diabetics do not get hypoglycemic.

I beg to differ: see http://clinical.diabetesjournals.org/content/24/3/115.full .

I'm threshhold Type 2 diabetic, controlled through diet, exercise and minimum doses of an appropriate drug (not insulin-using). I get hypoglycemic on occasion. Not to the point of raving, but enough that I realize I must do something (or my wife notices); usually eating an apple or something. Exercise can be the biggest issue, so I have a specific plan for before & after exercising.

It's entirely possible that a pilot (who can have Type 2 diabetes, properly controlled; pointed out by earlier poster) could become hypoglycemic for some reason. Would they then act this way? Out of my league; I defer to the medical community for an opinion on that part.
All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure. -- Mark Twain
 
milesrich
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:43 pm

And remember, many people want the pilots to be ARMED. Prison guards are not armed and there is a reason for that. Guns do NOT belong on airplanes.
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:16 pm

We must take the "eye-witness accounts" with a little bit of caution - remember, 4 people can see the same thing happen and 4 stories will be totally different when they are questioned afterwards - hence why Law Enforcement always separates individuals in a dispute.

I am alarmed however at how many people on this thread have come to rush to judgement on the reaction from the people on board who responded to the incident.

Given what I have seen on video thus far, if I had been on this flight, and someone was acting irrationally, ESPECIALLY someone who is supposed to be sitting in the front seat at the controls, would do everything in MY power to prevent that person from causing harm to anyone else if *I* felt that there was an immediate danger.

The videos I have seen so far have indicated to ME, that had I been in the same situation, I would have done the same thing they did.

If no one is on board that can make an immediate diagnosis that someone is in an diabetic condition, mental condition or having a stroke/seizure, what do you expect them to do? Sit back and let this guy bang on the cockpit door?

I think the situation was handled appropriately. If the accounts are true, the First Officer did a great job by removing the [perceived] threat to the cockpit. The dead-heading pilot was great to jump into the seat, and the passengers did a good job in trying to stop the threat from continuing to put people in harm.

I understand that restraining someone who is in a seizure or stroke can be detrimental to the health of the individual, but at the same time, the safety of 150+ people is more paramount in the absence of a medical diagnosis than the safety of 1 individual.

Can anyone who is a Pilot with a major airline confirm or speak to whether or not training is given for how to remove a threat like this in the case of an incapacitated member of the crew in the cockpit?

I really do hope that the Captain affected will be okay, and I am terribly sorry for what transpired. My understanding from reading up on the man is that is WAS in-fact a highly recognized individual with lots of experience. Very sad indeed to see what has happened. IF they ever let him fly again, it will be a huge blemish on his record.


1011yyz
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ROSWELL41
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:20 pm

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 91):
Can anyone who is a Pilot with a major airline confirm or speak to whether or not training is given for how to remove a threat like this in the case of an incapacitated member of the crew in the cockpit?

Yes, training is provided both to cockpit and cabin crews on how to handle incapacitated crewmembers.
 
tp1040
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:33 pm

I am glad things have changed in the cockpit where the FO had the guts take action. Basically, the FO determined that the Captain was incapable of being in the cockpit and it was safer without the captain . If this had been on water, it would have been called a mutiny.

To me, there could have been tremendous implications for the FO's decision or in-decision. CRM training certainly has evolved since Tenerife.
 
fsnuffer
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:51 pm

Is there a concept of mutiny in aviation. This case is a clears case of the FO assuming command but what if it was not such a clear cut case?
 
F9Animal
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:15 pm

It saddens me how quick people jump to calling this man names, and joking about his mental health. He obviously has a great background, and didn't get to where he is by displaying behaviors seen yesterday. I send my deepest sympathies to him and his family. I also hope whatever caused this will be corrected quickly. I also hope that this is not career ending for him. I am hopeful it was a bad reaction to something....
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m11stephen
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 92):
Yes, training is provided both to cockpit and cabin crews on how to handle incapacitated crewmembers.

Training is provided on how to handle something like a pilot going into cardiac arrest... Not a pilot becoming physically aggressive.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:38 pm

The latest news reports are saying that this could be a case of PTSD. As the airlines tighten the rules and expect more and more out of cabin crews this kind of behavior can be seen on occasion. At least that's what some psychiatrist said.
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IslandRob
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 92):
I also hope that this is not career ending for him.

Could have been life ending for everyone on board. We have the decisive, quick-acting crew members and passengers to thank for preventing that. -ir
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ROSWELL41
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 90):
Training is provided on how to handle something like a pilot going into cardiac arrest... Not a pilot becoming physically aggressive.

True, crewmembers are trained on how to handle that as well as other forms of incapacitation. At least where I work, we are trained in multiple types of incapacitation. Dealing with aggressive crewmembers and passengers is a critical part of 121 security training. Regardless, we have no idea what went on inside that cockpit prior to the captain leaving. That is what will be the most interesting part of this investigation.
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 89):
It saddens me how quick people jump to calling this man names, and joking about his mental health. He obviously has a great background, and didn't get to where he is by displaying behaviors seen yesterday. I send my deepest sympathies to him and his family. I also hope whatever caused this will be corrected quickly. I also hope that this is not career ending for him. I am hopeful it was a bad reaction to something....

+1. Hopefully he recovers and if this can be medically explained and remedied to the satisfaction of the FAA Aeromedical Division, hopefully he can fly again someday. It is a lot of ifs, but many pilots have come back against all odds.
 
BWI5OH
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:19 pm

As I've been reading the threads, many of you have brought up some good thoughts and theories. I just want to shed some light on some things that 20+ years as a law enforcement officer has shown me. *NOTE*-MY POST CONTAINS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES AND WHAT MY TRAINING HAS TAUGHT ME OVER THE YEARS!!! IN NO WAY AM I SAYING ANYONE OF YOU ARE WRONG ON YOR OWN OPINIONS!!! (Just so I don't get blasted)

First of all, the safety of the passengers and crew is paramount. It is PERFECTLY legal and acceptable behavior to restrain the person(s) involved in the disruption for the safety of all on board. If you or anyone else breaks his arms or legs tying to restrain that person, you would be exhonerated of any wrong doing under the Good Samaritan Acts.

Now there are exceptions to the rule. If he is displaying what is known as Excited Dillerium, BEWARE!!! Yes, this person needs to be restrained immediately, however, if he is laid on his stomach, hog-tied (hands and feet secured together behind his back), he could start convulsing, go into cardiac arrest and die of Positional Asphixiation, and most likely, a criminal charge of involuntary manslaughter will most likely result to ALL involved. As many of the news articles state, a retired NYPD officer was there, and I'm sure he would have seen the signs if this occurred. As long as it is PROVEN beyond a reasonable doubt that this person is a threat, it's legal and everyone is covered. In this case, from all I've seen and heard, it sounds as if this man was, beyond a reasonable doubt, in some sort of mental incapacitation. Kudo's to the "film crew" taking pictures and videos...it will eventually lead to exhoneration of all involved.

Secondly, for anyone that knows a thing or two about plastics, you will know why the zip ties broke. Age, heat, cold, etc., can deteriorate the plastic ties. I've used mine after having them for a year in the trunk of my cruiser, and as I applied them, they broke. The Capt. may not have broken them, they may have deteriorated to the point where they were useless. I'm sure this will be addressed if it is common practice for B6 or any other carriers that keep these on board.

Third, Police are trained (at least I was) to CEASE TALKING to the mentally ill person after he is detained. You don't know what you may say that will set him off again. However, since YOU detained him, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR HIM. If he starts choking, vomiting, having trouble breathing, etc., you had better know what to do so he doesn't die. For my training purposes, it was A) NO HOG-TYING, and B) If the mentally ill starts displaying these acts, sit him straight up on his butt. That way he won't choke or experience positional asphixiation, and get him medical attention immediately. Being this was FL33,000, I'm sure that was done as soon as it was possible. As long as you do everything in your power to protect his life, you probably will be cleared of any wrong doing.

Forth, we won't know for weeks what happened in the mans life to cause this. Diabetes? Possibly. Mental Breakdown? Possibly. Brain injuries and/or tumor? Possibly. We don't know, and I don't think it's really fair to judge him as a nutcase. One of many personal experiences, to make a long story short, was a pursuit of a vehicle at 100+ MPH. After watching him crash into about a dozen cars, guardrails and barrier walls, he finally stopped. Having the adrenaline rush that ALL cops experience after that, we all drew our pistols and ordered him out of the car. He wouldn't budge. We slowly approached, and the man was talking all kinds of crazy things about god, his wife and kids, etc. Come to find out, he was in diabetic shock. That taught me that not all instances can be taken at face value. He sounded, acted and drove crazy, but as soon as he was released from the hospital, he was as normal as your average Joe Blow.

This pilot probably loved his job but all I can think about is that he'll probably NEVER fly again. I'm not saying I'd let him if I had that choice (probably better that he doesn't), but just think about how bad he's going to feel when he comes around.

I give all the kudos and applause to the people who restrained this man and protected everyone from what may have gotten way out of hand. But I'm not going to sit here and judge someone I have no clue about.
"It's all fun and games until the cops show up"
 
catiii
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 87):
If this had been on water, it would have been called a mutiny.

Not necessarily. The Navy has in place protocols for relieving commanding officers.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 91):
As the airlines tighten the rules and expect more and more out of cabin crews this kind of behavior can be seen on occasion.

For cabin crews sure, but he was flight-deck crew.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 90):
Training is provided on how to handle something like a pilot going into cardiac arrest... Not a pilot becoming physically aggressive.

And truthfully, how could one sufficiently train for such an event?
 
cbphoto
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 96):
For cabin crews sure, but he was flight-deck crew.

Pretty sure the OP was talking about crews in the cabin as a general term. Not specifically flight attendants or pilots!

Quoting catiii (Reply 96):
And truthfully, how could one sufficiently train for such an event?

Simple really, you train for it as you would any other out of control passenger! While the decision would obviously be tougher when it is your Captain you are dealing with, in the end it should be treated no differently. And in this case, the crew did an excellent job in doing just that, dealing with the situation similarly as they would with a Pax!

Lots of people have commended the FO, and I would like to add as well that the FO in my opinion is the real "hero" in this story. He was the one who first recognized the bizarre behavior of the captain, and also neutralized the situation by getting the Capt. out of the flight deck!
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IslandRob
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:03 pm

Per breaking CNN, Pilot Osbon now charged with interfering with a flight crew - a federal offense. -ir

Edited to add: FO's statement regarding Osbon's behavior sheds light on a truly disturbed individual.

[Edited 2012-03-28 14:05:35]
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BobbyPSP
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:46 pm

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