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prosa
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:55 pm

It seems WAY premature to charge Osbon with a serious felony before the medical testing is complete. If it turns out that his meltdown was caused by an unforeseen medical condition, he'll still have to deal with the charges and will have to hope that the prosecutor shows mercy and withdraws the charges. The only situation in which immediate charges might be appropriate is if that's the only way to ensure he stays hospitalized until the tests are done, and I doubt that's the case.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
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Polot
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting PROSA (Reply 100):
It seems WAY premature to charge Osbon with a serious felony before the medical testing is complete. If it turns out that his meltdown was caused by an unforeseen medical condition, he'll still have to deal with the charges and will have to hope that the prosecutor shows mercy and withdraws the charges. The only situation in which immediate charges might be appropriate is if that's the only way to ensure he stays hospitalized until the tests are done, and I doubt that's the case.

Just because he maybe mentally ill or have some other illness does not mean he shouldn't be charged. If it turns out that he was mentally handicapped unexpectedly in any way then the punishment will reflect that.
 
prosa
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 101):
Just because he maybe mentally ill or have some other illness does not mean he shouldn't be charged. If it turns out that he was mentally handicapped unexpectedly in any way then the punishment will reflect that.

I don't agree. Charging him at this point serves no useful purpose unless it's the only way to ensure he stays hospitalized for testing.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
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flashmeister
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:23 pm

Scary reading. Definitely a few fries short of a happy meal. If he started acting goofy on climbout, and the crap really hit the fan about a half hour outside Amarillo, that seems like a long time to fly with a round-the-bend captain.

Anyone know more precisely how long it was between the captain initially leaving the cockpit and the eventual emergency landing?

In any case, major kudos to the FO. Calm and effective thinking.
 
AirCalSNA
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:28 pm

Completely bizarre behavior disclosed on the FBI affidavit. Seems like it might have been appropriate to have declared an emergency as soon as the pilot left the cockpit.
 
IFlyTWA
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:56 pm

What is it about the flight # 191?  Winkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_191

[Edited 2012-03-28 15:57:36]
"To express the excitement of travel" - Eero Saarinen
 
Viscount724
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:07 pm

Quoting IFlyTWA (Reply 105):
What is it about the flight # 191?

Already mentioned in Reply 40.
 
nwafflyer
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:20 am

I guess I am totally stupid, but I would really like to know what happened to Jet Blue 191
 
catiii
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:07 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 102):
Charging him at this point serves no useful purpose unless it's the only way to ensure he stays hospitalized for testing.

That would be my guess too. There must be a legal rationale that involved being able to keep him hospitalized. Additionally, would B6 be bringing the charge or the United States?
 
Jeff G
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:50 am

Quoting BWI5OH (Reply 95):
This pilot probably loved his job but all I can think about is that he'll probably NEVER fly again. I'm not saying I'd let him if I had that choice (probably better that he doesn't), but just think about how bad he's going to feel when he comes around.

I give all the kudos and applause to the people who restrained this man and protected everyone from what may have gotten way out of hand. But I'm not going to sit here and judge someone I have no clue about.

Thanks very much for writing this. It provides some much needed perspective.
 
m11stephen
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:35 am

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 93):
True, crewmembers are trained on how to handle that as well as other forms of incapacitation. At least where I work, we are trained in multiple types of incapacitation. Dealing with aggressive crewmembers and passengers is a critical part of 121 security training. Regardless, we have no idea what went on inside that cockpit prior to the captain leaving. That is what will be the most interesting part of this investigation.

Really? I'm shocked... Your airline must go way above what is required by the TSA. Incapacitiation generally means something like a crewmember passing out, having a heart attack, etc. and as part of first aid training F/As do receive training on what to do if these situations occur while a pilot is at the controls. This captain was more then just incapacitated he became physically aggressive and showed signs of wanting to crash the plane.

Quoting catiii (Reply 96):
And truthfully, how could one sufficiently train for such an event?

You really can't. If a pilot wants to crash the plane there really isn't anything to stop them from doing so other then the actions of the other pilot... It is a miracle that the first officer was able to do what he did and get the captain out of the flight deck before the captain really "broke down." There are clearly established threat levels and responses on what to do when a PASSENGER becomes physically aggressive in the CABIN and/or makes an attempt to breach the flight deck however a situation like this is something that no one can train for and a procedure really can't be developed for.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
wjcandee
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:06 am

FWIW, it does seem odd that the US Attorney has decided to charge him now unless: (1) as noted above, they for some reason want to keep him in custody for a while longer (of course he would be entitled to apply for bail fairly quickly, so I'm not sure I follow this logic); or (2) they have uncovered something in their investigation that leads them to believe that he bears some personal responsibility (for example, something like voluntary intoxication by whatever means that resulted in a break from reality, either directly or indirectly [e.g. no sleep for 96 hours]).

It's a no-brainer to get the arrest warrant insofar as he did appear to commit acts that met the elements of the offense charged, but it seems odd to charge him if, for example, a PET scan at the hospital showed a brain tumor. In that case, I would think that they'd sort it out a bit more before determining whether to charge him. Not everyone that violates the law gets charged with a crime; it's still a discretionary matter as to whether and when. I don't imagine that the US Attorney for the Northern District of Texas is much concerned about him leaving the District unless they really believe that he would be likely to flee the country; he/she can always have the Marshalls go snatch him up at home in Florida or wherever if it comes time to charge him.

Interesting that prior to this he was widely perceived as a stand-up guy. It's either a horrible development for him or a deep secret come to the surface.
 
tonystan
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:27 am

Quoting islandrob (Reply 92):
Could have been life ending for everyone on board. We have the decisive, quick-acting crew members and passengers to thank for preventing that. -ir

No, they have the FO to thank for that for getting him out of the cockpit. Once he was locked out there was no way he was going to get back in so the "life ending" threat was reduced 99%!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
rfields5421
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:37 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 108):
Additionally, would B6 be bringing the charge or the United States?

The airline cannot bring criminal charges against an individual, only the government. A charge could be based upon information provided by a corporation, if the investigating officer or prosecutor agrees that a crime occured.

He was formally arrested and charged with a US Federal crime of interfering with a flight crew earlier this week.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:38 pm

Three hours before this thing came to a head ... It must have been a long three hours for that FO ... that is really something ...
 
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casinterest
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:04 pm

Quoting bobbypsp (Reply 99):
From CNN, link to FBI report. Amazing reading

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/im...hp_c2

After reading this, I think a felony is the least of his concerns. I really hope that this man gets the medical and or psychological help that he needs.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 111):
It's a no-brainer to get the arrest warrant insofar as he did appear to commit acts that met the elements of the offense charged, but it seems odd to charge him if, for example, a PET scan at the hospital showed a brain tumor. In that case, I would think that they'd sort it out a bit more before determining whether to charge him. Not everyone that violates the law gets charged with a crime

I think legally speaking , they need to do this to ensure he is not capable of piloting again. Whether this was a stroke or something else. Things are not working as they should within his reasoning functions, and the legal maneuver is a way to make sure no one mistakingly puts him in charge of a plane without a full understanding / hearing of what occurred.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
747400sp
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:17 pm

191 is a bad flight number.
 
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IslandRob
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:20 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 112):
Quoting islandrob (Reply 92):
Could have been life ending for everyone on board. We have the decisive, quick-acting crew members and passengers to thank for preventing that. -ir

No, they have the FO to thank for that for getting him out of the cockpit. Once he was locked out there was no way he was going to get back in so the "life ending" threat was reduced 99%!

Uh, yes. I was including the FO when I used the term 'crew members'. And, to me, it appears that the captain, by all accounts a large and very robust man, was completely out of control and a danger to the aircraft and other passengers, whether or not he had access to the cockpit. Regards. -ir
If you wrote me off, I'd understand it
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PHX787
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:25 pm

Here's what's confusing me: Obviously, the captain was distraught, not in his wits....and he was causing a sizable commotion and could've easily endangered the aircraft. We all have that FO to thank for his choices there...
BUT how could the captain be charged with a federal crime? He was obviously not in his wits... What's behind this? do you think he'll get an insanity verdict?
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Silver1SWA
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:52 pm

You're damned if you do, damned if you don't when involved in something like this. To those accusing the passengers and crew of overreacting and crossing a line by physically restraining him, what if he managed to cause harm or even bring down the airplane? Wouldn't the resounding assumption be that the crew and passengers didn't do enough??

I can't believe the things I read on this board sometimes!

Kudos to the FO, the rest of the crew and the passengers for handling the situation and allowing the flight to land safely. And may the captain get the help he needs for recovery.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
tp1040
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 118):
Here's what's confusing me: Obviously, the captain was distraught, not in his wits....and he was causing a sizable commotion and could've easily endangered the aircraft. We all have that FO to thank for his choices there...
BUT how could the captain be charged with a federal crime? He was obviously not in his wits... What's behind this? do you think he'll get an insanity verdict?

These days, US law enforcement has a tendency to automatically charge people*, then they will let the courts determine the outcome. He will get treatment, he will have and attorney and some type of plea will be arranged with the government. We might not ever hear about the outcome.



*I said generally, because there is a recent shooting case in Florida, the charges still have not been brought. That is not the proper forum to discuss that case.
 
rampart
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 119):
I can't believe the things I read on this board sometimes!

Yeah, what if. Good work to the crew on this event, but I sometimes can't believe the crass assumptions made by posters here.
 
maxpower1954
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:02 am

I was on a Tokyo layover in February 1982 when I turned on the TV and watched the aftermath of a JAL DC-8 accident that occurred when the captain deliberately crashed into Tokyo Bay. He reversed the inboard engines inflight and pushed the control column forward - the F/O was able to pull back and reduce the impact. 24 passengers died.

He was not held responsible for what he did by reason of insanity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_350

[Edited 2012-03-29 22:05:41]

[Edited 2012-03-29 22:07:09]
 
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mayor
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:39 pm

Don't know if this has been thought of, but what is the deal with different flight 191s, that seem to be messed up.......the AA crash in Chicago, DL's crash at DFW, Comair 5191 in LEX and now B6 flight 191.............  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
maxpower1954
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:59 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 123):
Don't know if this has been thought of, but what is the deal with different flight 191s, that seem to be messed up.......the AA crash in Chicago, DL's crash at DFW, Comair 5191 in LEX and now B6 flight 191.............  


And don't forget Prinair 191, which crashed at Ponce, PR in 1972 with five fatalties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prinair_Flight_191
 
F9Animal
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:51 am

Say what you need to say about my feelings.... But I feel bad for him. Whatever happened, I just hope he comes out okay. He is human, and humans are far from perfect. We can't deny that he was a highly decorated airman. I have heard he is a very liked, very professional, and very respected captain. I hope they can find out what caused this, and use the findings from happening again. If it was PTSD, I have deep concerns about the countless other pilots who may have the same potential issue brewing. PTSD has proven to be a huge problem in service sector jobs worldwide. I think it is overdue to find ways to combat PTSD.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:56 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 125):
I have heard he is a very liked, very professional, and very respected captain.

Sad If true........as he will find it very difficult to be permitted to fly a commercial Airliner again.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ltbewr
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:48 pm

As to the FO and what he did, I am quite sure this is covered by general training and common sense rules to make sure no one is at the controls who can cause harm or is unathorized to have access especialy post-9/11/01. The FO made an excellent series of key judgments that prevented the worse possible scenerio and do his primary job, operate the a/c until it could safely land.

There were some media stories that the Captain was late or missed part of the pre-flight briefings. Apparently due to FAA and JetBlue policy, that did not preclude him from flying as the FO was in full attendance. Such a policy is probably feaing if they did prevent a pilot to fly if they missed such meetings, then it would delay the flight until a substitute pilot was available and related hassles. JetBlue may have a weak policy on that point so may have to make some revisions.

As to the restraint of the Captain, fortuntaly there were, as other posters noted, trained law enforcement and security persons on that flight who used the correct procedures to secure him with minimal harm to him. Sometimes restraining a pax who is illegally unruly can go really wrong. There is the 2000 WN flight where a pax went 'crazy', tried to enter the cockpit, some of the other pax restrained him but in doing so, broke his neck and he died. None of the pax were charges after a short investigation by the local proscutitor.

As to the arrest of the Captain, this is standard procedure in the post-9/11 time in any in-flight 'event' like this. This can also mean he can get access to an attorney to protect his rights including access to a psychratic and medical evaluation. Most likely the charges will be dropped, but by this arrest, it immediatly suspends his flying license, probaby for life. I also suspect he would be put on a 'no fly' list for the forseeable future due to such charges which is probably a sound decision to prevent another incident involving him.
 
prosa
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:06 pm

So let's say you're a captain with a major airline. You're unsure of your ability to fly due to psychological issues - for example depression, excessive stress that makes it hard to concentrate, something of that nature. Can you take a temporary leave of absence to deal with these issues without putting your job or license in jeopardy?
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
rfields5421
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:43 pm

PROSA - Those are medical issues, and as a pilot you are obligated to inform your airline and the FAA of any changes in your medical condition. At the very least, your pilot's license would be suspended, and require extensive review before you are allowed to return to flying transport category aircraft, if ever.

I do know one pilot who was able to return to flying corporate jets after a 3 1/2 year suspension of his pilot's license due to brain cancer, a successful surgery to remove the tumor, and one year completely free of cancer.

I know a few airline pilots who are recovering alcoholics. Most of them had their license suspended for several months when they entered treatment, but were able to return to flying after six months sober and demonstration they were actively involved in a continuing after care program.

Those who flew with major airlines had their time off covered under the union contract. The couple who flew for regionals were simply on unpaid leave.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
F9Animal
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:44 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 128):
So let's say you're a captain with a major airline. You're unsure of your ability to fly due to psychological issues - for example depression, excessive stress that makes it hard to concentrate, something of that nature. Can you take a temporary leave of absence to deal with these issues without putting your job or license in jeopardy?

That is a great question! And yes, you can. A doctor can fill out FMLA paperwork, so a person can get federal protection of a job while being out for a serious medical condition. As for keeping a license, I guess it would depend on the outcome of treatment. I personally applaud any employee that is responsible for the lives of people to take leave if they are concerned of their mental health. I also could not imagine the pain and heartache it would cause losing a job because of it.

I have a close family member that was forced to retire early from flying 747s for NW. He began experiencing memory problems, and was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. It was so crushing for me to see it happen, but he seemed okay with it.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: B6 Jet Diverted To AMA-Pilot Disrupts Flight

Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:30 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 128):

So let's say you're a captain with a major airline. You're unsure of your ability to fly due to psychological issues - for example depression, excessive stress that makes it hard to concentrate, something of that nature. Can you take a temporary leave of absence to deal with these issues without putting your job or license in jeopardy?

It exists in Flt ops & Maintenance....If a professional feels not 100% to undertake a particular task....He could report the same & back off....The problem is Mgmt pressure might restriict most from doing so.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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