dennys
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:57 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 49):

Quoting dennys (Reply 46):
Hi Rosefly , can you confirm the aircraft shall be an A340-200 ?
Thks regards
dennys

A340-200 or A340-300X

A342 when on the route, will be limited in Y189.

Saludos,

thank you !

But apprently A342 has already this cabin Class Y cl seats number for all routes .

The A340-200 is a long-range wide body aircraft. Here, it is configured in two classes: 217 economy class seats and 32 business or Condor Class seats.

Saludos
dennys
 
dennys
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:21 am

Quoting yeogeo (Reply 31):

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 12):
Hell of a route almost over the south pole. Nice!!

Not only that, but a hell of a long route as well  

(For aviation stat junkies only):
It will be the 38th longest reg. sched. pax flight currently and will continue to be EZE's longest,
AND will be the longest 343 reg/sched flight in the world (or series 342? anyone know which series is to be operated?), just edging out Philippines MNL-LAX service by 18 nautical miles:
World's Longest Flights 15 March Update (by yeogeo Feb 26 2012 in Aviation Polls)

cheers!
yeo

hi Yeo

One route is missing apparently AMM ORD , AMM DTT , AMM JFK
regards
dennys
 
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yeogeo
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:00 pm

Quoting dennys (Reply 51):
One route is missing apparently AMM ORD , AMM DTT , AMM JFK
regards
dennys

No, AMM is there; the problem is nautical miles, probably.

Go to the Great Circle Mapper *, →set “Path Distance” to nautical miles ←, enter your routes separated by commas (using DTW, not DTT), and then look up the routes in the World’s Longest.
AMM-JFK is less than 5000nm, although in the “new, improved” version of the list, coming out in a couple of months, it will be included.   

yeo
* http://gc.kls2.com/

[Edited 2012-04-01 05:15:41]
 
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United787
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:35 pm

I would love to see a brief history of South America to New Zealand/Australia flights for QF, LA, NZ & AR and any others...
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:39 am

Quoting united787 (Reply 53):

I would love to see a brief history of South America to New Zealand/Australia flights for QF, LA, NZ & AR and any others...

Pretty basic.

AR. Started service to AKL in 1980 with a monthly! 742 via RGL. EZE-RGL-AKL-EZE. It became bi weekly then weekly over time, an extension to HKG was added briefly in the mid 1980s. SYD was added around 1988 and came and went for a few years. By 1996/97 AR operated 2-3 weekly 742s EZE-RGL-AKL-EZE with an AN 743 operating SYD-AKL-SYD to connect to this service which only lasted a few months. AR then restarted AKL-SYD with their own 742. The A342 came along around April 1999 operated 2 weekly flights and allowing the EZE-AKL sector to operate non stop. There was a brief pull out around 2000/01 due to cost cutting and near company shutdown. They were back a few months later though. The flight did build up to 5 weekly in peak Southern summers with 3-4 weekly in winter through the mid 2000s. They loaded EZE-SYD 2 weekly non stop in 2008 when QF announced SYD-EZE but AR never went ahead with that plan. And basically they are now at where they are planning EZE-SYD non stop and dropping AKL. They have always been pretty unreliable AFAIK.

QF started SYD-AKL-EZE 2 weekly with a 744 in 1998 and operated through till mid 2002, there was briefly a third flight for 1 summer. They had planned SCL services around 2003 but LAN got in with a QF codeshare which proved popular and QF never started SCL at that time. They relaunched EZE from SYD non stop in 2008 with a 744ER 3x weekly which operated through to March 2012. EZE has been replaced by SCL which is planned to bring greater connection opportunities through LAN.

LA started SCL-AKL-SYD 3x weekly in mid 2002 with an A343, initially this was meant to be replaced by a QF service to SCL but the LA service proved popular and was kept, it went 4 weekly in 2004 and 5 weekly in 2005 and daily in 2007. AFAIK LAN have done pretty well with this service and have the right aircraft for the route. They continue to codeshare with QF.

NZ have never been to South America yet somewhat surprisingly to some including me being that AR flew low frequencies with 747s i'm surprised NZ never tried EZE or SCL with a 747 at some point. Brazil is the main market here and AR and LA connect a lot of PAX from there onto their own AKL-SYD flights. Unfortunately aircraft like the 744 and A340 couldn't fly GIG/GRU-AKL other than the A345 which none of the airlines operated.

NZ are looking at South America with 787s which should be allowed to fly there long ETOPS routes in a few years and their 777s will aswell, weather any can operate GRU/GIG-AKL with a decent load remains to be seen.

Other operators mainly from Asia have looked at South America through AKL I believe but none have flown it yet, it remains to be seen who will try it first.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:47 am

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 54):
Other operators mainly from Asia have looked at South America through AKL I believe but none have flown it yet, it remains to be seen who will try it first.

CX ought to try HKG-AKL-SCL with their 340s.. a OW asian carrier would have the best shot at making it work. Don't think JL would have enough traffic to SCL to make it viable and GRU (where the JL traffic is) is out of the pic until those 78s are able to make the ETOPS crossing.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:53 am

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 55):
CX ought to try HKG-AKL-SCL with their 340s..

Opps I forgot to add that CX codeshare with LA through AKL and some US cities. It seems quite popular.
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:20 am

It would make sense for the new LATAM to fly either GRU-SCL-AKL (if they decide for Star) or GRU-SCL-SYD (if they go OW).
 
DavidByrne
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:38 am

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 54):

AR. Started service to AKL in 1980 with a monthly! 742 via RGL. EZE-RGL-AKL-EZE. It became bi weekly then weekly over time, an extension to HKG was added briefly in the mid 1980s.

Nice summary. One other interesting little fact - at a very early stage in the route's development the Falklands War broke out, and the route was suspended for quite a long while. Can't remember whether it was operating monthly (actually four-weekly, I think) or fortnightly at that stage. I remember being very disappointed that what was at that stage a truly unique and extremely infrequent connection, the only one across all of the South Pacific, was cut short for political reasons. Can anyone remember whether the initiative to can the services was by NZ or Argentina?

In the mid-80s I several times flew the route, and can still remember watching as my flight to Auckland arrived and taxied to the little shed that was the terminal at Rio Gallegos.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
dennys
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting yeogeo (Thread starter):

Both Northstarboy and BNAOWB emailed/IM'd me this morning about this development, obviously big new in the world of long-haul flights! (6366nm, by the way).

Aerolíneas Argentinas will be ending service to Auckland and flying Buenos Aires to Sydney nonstop with its A-340's come 1 July.

With Qantas ending their EZE-SYD flight this Spring I'm happy to see (what I believe is) the world's most southerly reg sched. flight continue.

Hello yoegeo
could this non stop flight be flown with a twin Jet , and what would be the deviation airports in case of engine failure ?
Sorry i cann't use the great mapper site , i cannot make it works .
Many thanks
regards
dennys
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 54):
NZ are looking at South America with 787s which should be allowed to fly there long ETOPS routes in a few years and their 777s will aswell, weather any can operate GRU/GIG-AKL with a decent load remains to be seen.

Depending on the day the GRU/GIG-AKL ESAD can be between about 6900 and 7300nm. A one-stop at EZE would be ideal reducing the leg by ~900nm. The 77W has the best payload potential for a non-stop service but it might be too big for the market. The 789 should be good for about 30t which is max passenger load plus a bit on a 7300nm ESAD day. Certainly the fuel burn at about 85t would make it pretty attractive.
 
Gemuser
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting dennys (Reply 59):
could this non stop flight be flown with a twin Jet

Not if it's to/from an Australian port. It would require 240 ETDO, which frankly I can't see AR getting. It would also come very close too, if not actually passed 60degrees South limit, which brings another set of requirements into play.

Quoting dennys (Reply 59):
and what would be the deviation airports in case of engine failure ?

NONE! The route is that isolated!
The only real diversion airports are NZ (CHC/AKL) at the west end and far south South American airports such as RGL at the eastern end. All diversion airports between are far to the north, I don't have the time to make GCMapper calculate them, but they are around 2,000 nm away based on 240 ETDO. There are NO suitable diversion airports to the south, in Antarctica.

I think Australia - South America and Australia - South Africa will become the last stomping ground for quads in the coming decade.

Gemuser
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yeogeo
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting dennys (Reply 59):
Hello yoegeo
could this non stop flight be flown with a twin Jet , and what would be the deviation airports in case of engine failure ?

Hello Dennys
I'll defer to Gemuser in the above post but just add an illustration:



As you can see there is a large area, perhaps one quarter of the entire most efficient flight line which is outside the 240 minute ETOPS rule (the areas on the map in darker blue). Even a flight from EZE-AKL encounters a considerable area outside the allowed 240 minute to deviation airport for twin operation which Gemuser refers to.

As for as the Great Circle Mapper try this:
Enter in the "Paths" box: EZE-SYD
Select in "Path Distance" menu: nm
Click on "Display Map"
Voila!

Hope it works for you - its quite a handy tool!

yeo
 
dennys
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:35 am

Many thanks Yeo
regards
dennys
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:09 am

Quoting yeogeo (Reply 62):
As you can see there is a large area, perhaps one quarter of the entire most efficient flight line which is outside the 240 minute ETOPS rule (the areas on the map in darker blue). Even a flight from EZE-AKL encounters a considerable area outside the allowed 240 minute to deviation airport for twin operation which Gemuser refers to.

We had a long discussion about Aus-LatAm flights over on the Australian Aviation threads recently, and I think it was established in the end that allowing for CASA's ETOPS180 rule the only viable route for a twin from SYD to GRU was via PPT. Incidentally SYD-PPT-GRU could be operated by a 332.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 61):
Not if it's to/from an Australian port

For those who aren't aware, Australia's CASA have stated publicly that they won't approve a flight to or from Australia which requires more than ETOPS180. The reasoning isn't altogether clear, but I guess it isn't for us to reason why!

Quoting gemuser (Reply 39):
Most Aussies think nothing of the 24 hour flight to Europe in Y. It's what you have to do to get there! True there is a stop but the sectors are still 8hrs + 14hrs +1.5hr transit time.
I'm currently booked for 13-14 hour sectors, SYD-SFO & LAX-SYD on UA. No real problem on a B744, it's even OK on a 3-3-3 B777 (my least favorite aircraft). The one thing I personally can't cope with on long haul sectors is 3-4-3 B777 such as EK, NZ, AF & KL use. The 8 hours SYD-BKK had me climbing the walls!

I don't even think about sitting on a plane for 24 hours any more. I've done MAN-DXB-BNE the entire way in a middle seat on an EK 777 and it really didn't bother me much at all. Admittedly I enjoy flying, but other people I know say that its something they've got to do if they want to go anywhere.

In the UK I know people who think that a 7 hour LHR-JFK flight is "long", whereas I don't know anyone here who would even notice a 9 hour flight up to HKG!

Quoting tayser (Reply 41):
this argument reminds me of family in the UK - they refuse to get on a flight longer than 4-5 hours, so all they do is travel around Europe - they automatically exclude North America, Asia, Africa and Oceania *yawn*

That frustrates me so much! I have a lot of family and friends who flat-out refuse to come to Australia because it is a "too far". WTF??? We all do it all the time without even thinking about it, what gives? I realise that it is a psychological barrier and we are used to having to spend a long time on an airplane to get anywhere other than NZ, NAN or DPS, but it seems a lot of people in Europe have constructed a wall at JFK in the west and DXB in the east.
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mariner
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:34 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 64):
I don't even think about sitting on a plane for 24 hours any more.

I won't do it now, and have only ever done it when I've had no choice, usually for work related reasons.

I organize stop-overs for myself at places I like or places I haven't previously visited. My itinerary can be quite eccentric.

I don't see the point in paying all that money just to get there.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
thegeek
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:39 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 64):
For those who aren't aware, Australia's CASA have stated publicly that they won't approve a flight to or from Australia which requires more than ETOPS180. The reasoning isn't altogether clear, but I guess it isn't for us to reason why!

When did they say that? I've done a google, and this link: http://www.casa.gov.au/newrules/ops/edto/download/NFRM0608OS.pdf
infers the exact opposite, albeit without specifying the criteria.
 
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:46 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 66):
When did they say that? I've done a google, and this link: http://www.casa.gov.au/newrules/ops/edto/download/NFRM0608OS.pdf
infers the exact opposite, albeit without specifying the criteria.

Unfortunately I can't open the link you provided...

Maybe it was an ANet rumour    But I am 90% sure that a link was provided when it did the rounds...

I'll have a look later.

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):
I won't do it now, and have only ever done it when I've had no choice

I've only started taking stopovers now that I travel alone and with the benefit of long university holidays. I have a good friend who lives in Hong Kong (a city I love) so if nothing else I'll pop in to see her when going to Europe.

When traveling with my parents however we never stopped over since they only had a finite amount of holiday time so they wanted to maximise our time at our destination.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
kiwiandrew

RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:01 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 66):

When did they say that? I've done a google, and this link: http://www.casa.gov.au/newrules/ops/edto/download/NFRM0608OS.pdf
infers the exact opposite, albeit without specifying the criteria.

My understanding ( which is second hand) is that this is exactly their intention.

They have given the appearance of being prepared to support it, but they wont publish any criteria under which they will actually permit operations, thus making it impossible for airlines to be compliant. On the other side of the Tasman the NZ CAA have , apparently , published clear guidelines under which they will permit EDTO.

Perhaps the staff at CASA were big fans of "Yes, Minister" ? It certainly appears to be a strategy worthy of Sir Humphrey
 
Motorhussy
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:24 am

Personally, I will be sad to see AR leaving our fair shores, they've been flying to New Zealand since 1980 and that's quite a lot of time in historical aviation terms. I wish AR all the best for their EZE-SYD service and hope it works well for them and their many Asian Skyteam partners that fly to SYD.

I also hope this opens the gate for NZ to start operating an AKL-EZE-GRU service.

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:54 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 69):
Personally, I will be sad to see AR leaving our fair shores, they've been flying to New Zealand since 1980 and that's quite a lot of time in historical aviation terms. I wish AR all the best for their EZE-SYD service and hope it works well for them and their many Asian Skyteam partners that fly to SYD.

Yep agreed - me too,

I have flown all 4 of their 342s to and from EZE at various times and have a number of happy AR flights to remember. They were the airline I wanted to see as a child plane watching at AKL. That AR 742 in classic A.A livery remains one of my absolute favorites of all time and I had a massive poster of one taking off in the rain that I got at a travel expo as a small child of 6.

Add to that I know each and every one of the AR at AKL personally, and others who have left in the past 5 years or so - including the original AR rep that started in 1980 and retired a short time ago. I nearly went to work for them at one time. I'll be very sad to see the airline moving on from AKL. I just hope it works out for the airline in the long run.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Gemuser
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:35 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 66):
When did they say that?

It was in The Age last year. A CASA spokesman was quoted as saying something like he doubted CASA would ever approve EDTO>180. I THINK it was in a thread about VA stopping service to RSA.

Gemuser
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DavidByrne
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:54 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):
I organize stop-overs for myself at places I like or places I haven't previously visited. My itinerary can be quite eccentric.

I don't see the point in paying all that money just to get there.

I'm absolutely with you there, Mariner. I've had some wonderfully exotic routings and stopovers over the years through consciously seeking out the cheaper travelling options between the Northern and Southern hemispheres. I'm hoping to travel to Europe next year using LCCs and find a routing that I can transfer via somewhere in the former Soviet Union or central Asia - as long as visas aren't too much of a headache.

One promising option involves LCCs from the UAE to Western Europe via Kiev.Or from the UAE to IST via Tehran, Donetsk or Almaty. Trouble is you can't book too soon for fear that one schedule change or route cancellation will throw the entire itinerary into jeopardy. Adds a bit of edge to it, I guess.
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yeogeo
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:40 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 64):
I think it was established in the end that allowing for CASA's ETOPS180 rule the only viable route for a twin from SYD to GRU was via PPT. Incidentally SYD-PPT-GRU could be operated by a 332.

For what its worth, EZE-SYD via PPT would also seem viable even with 180 min. ETOPS, according to the GCM:


A pretty routing, like Christmas garland, but probably not economical, as its a 8000nm+ route vs the 6300nm nonstop EZE-SYD.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 64):
In the UK I know people who think that a 7 hour LHR-JFK flight is "long", whereas I don't know anyone here who would even notice a 9 hour flight up to HKG!

Well, Europeans are extraordinarily well-positioned geographically, don't hold that against them  
Its a point brought home in constructing the "World's Longest" list: London being equidistant to both GIG (4983nm) and PVG (5001nm), a distance that will get you to Hong Kong from Sydney but some watery place in all other directions.

North Americans are somewhat un-balanced (talking geographically now, please!) in that Europe and south would be a walk in the park for a Kiwi or Australian, whereas anywhere from N. Am. to Asia, especially from the Midwest or East Coast, is a long haul.

cheers!
yeo

[Edited 2012-04-03 06:16:34]
 
ozglobal
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting zhiao (Reply 40):
What a scary route path; I hope there's no risk of falling into space!
Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 12):
Hell of a route almost over the south pole. Nice!!

Yes, I have done on QF about 3 years ago. Left SYD at 11am Dec 31st and arrived 13hrs later in EZE at (wait for it...) 11am on Dec 31st !!!! The half way point was a bit wierd when you look at the flight path map and see where you are. I was in upper deck J and neither I nor the FA's could figure out where there would be a diversion airport within 6-8 hrs flight of that point!!! Maybe the new Australian Antartic Expedition's base runway ontop of the ice??
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 71):
A CASA spokesman was quoted as saying something like he doubted CASA would ever approve EDTO>180. I THINK it was in a thread about VA stopping service to RSA.

It will be interesting to see how things change once QF and Jetstar start receiving their 787 fleets. Flying over Antarctica, regardless of how reliable the twin is, I'd rather be on a 747 or an A340.
come visit the south pacific
 
Checo77
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:56 pm

I was just checking AR´s vs. LA´s fares into SYD and AR were cheaper by half over LA. Wow. Really interesting.
The product is definitely worse, but still, their pricing seemed reasonable (return ticket in June for 1300 dollars).

Must try the flight some day  

Adam
Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
 
Motorhussy
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting Checo77 (Reply 76):
I was just checking AR´s vs. LA´s fares into SYD and AR were cheaper by half over LA. Wow. Really interesting.
The product is definitely worse, but still, their pricing seemed reasonable (return ticket in June for 1300 dollars).

A very long flight with no seat-back IFE in Y.

[Edited 2012-04-03 15:18:28]
come visit the south pacific
 
Gemuser
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 74):
Maybe the new Australian Antartic Expedition's base runway ontop of the ice??

AFAIK an A319 is the largest "airliner" permitted on the Wilkes ice runway, due to pavement issues, that is the ice is not strong enough for "airliner" weights with "airliner" type under carriage. Military aircraft, with their extra wheels are a different matter.

Even if you did successfully land a large "airliner" on an ice runway, without any navaids, where are you going to put the pax? I doubt any Antarctic base could accommodate 10 unexpected visitors let alone 100 - 500! You can't leave them on the plane, they would freeze to death pretty quickly.

Gemuser
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ozglobal
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 78):
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 74):
Maybe the new Australian Antartic Expedition's base runway ontop of the ice??

AFAIK an A319 is the largest "airliner" permitted on the Wilkes ice runway, due to pavement issues, that is the ice is not strong enough for "airliner" weights with "airliner" type under carriage. Military aircraft, with their extra wheels are a different matter.

Even if you did successfully land a large "airliner" on an ice runway, without any navaids, where are you going to put the pax? I doubt any Antarctic base could accommodate 10 unexpected visitors let alone 100 - 500! You can't leave them on the plane, they would freeze to death pretty quickly.

1/ Wasn't really serious. Just underlining the isolation.

2/ Would rather take my chances in a crowded hanger in freezing conditions than plunge into the Antarctic oceans.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
qf002
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 77):
A very long flight with no seat-back IFE in Y.

It's cheaper to buy the AR fare and then go out and get a top of the range iPad and a pile of movies and TV shows to occupy oneself for the flight... And you get to keep the iPad after your holiday is over  
 
thegeek
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:46 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 71):
It was in The Age last year. A CASA spokesman was quoted as saying something like he doubted CASA would ever approve EDTO>180. I THINK it was in a thread about VA stopping service to RSA.

Found it, here: http://www.theage.com.au/travel/trav...longhaul-burden-20100324-qwd9.html

Interestingly, that is completely different to what CASA said to comment 130 in this link: http://www.casa.gov.au/newrules/ops/edto/download/NFRM0608OS_AA.pdf

COMMENT 130 – KEY PROPOSED CHANGE 2 – INTRODUCING NEW
EXTENDED DIVERSION TIME APPROVAL STEPS (BEYOND 180 MINUTE
AND BEYOND 240 MINUTES)
NZALPA believes that total reliance on one propulsion system to provide for a safe
landing at a suitable en-route diversion aerodrome beyond 240 minutes is unreasonable
and unnecessary. Up to 240 minutes could be acceptable after extensive operator
experience through proving flights.
CASA Response
CASA disagrees. The new EDTO rule suite legislates standards that determine the
design, operation and maintenance of certain aeroplanes to operate extended
range from an adequate airport. The rule suite also legislates current CASA
policy, international best practices and recommendations, as well as harmonising
with international standards. It is a composite rule suite that has been
comprehensively consulted and designed to ensure EDTO flights will continue to
operate safely.

I wonder if that means NZ airlines can operate 777s EDTO on SYD-JNB ? Probably not.
 
Gemuser
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:08 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 81):

I wonder if that means NZ airlines can operate 777s EDTO on SYD-JNB ? Probably not.

Given the contradiction, who knows, but I'd bet they wouldn't be allowed!

Gemuser
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qf002
Posts: 3590
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 81):
I wonder if that means NZ airlines can operate 777s EDTO on SYD-JNB ? Probably not.
Quoting gemuser (Reply 82):
Given the contradiction, who knows, but I'd bet they wouldn't be allowed!

Under the same conditions as Australian airlines, yes they would. But it would end up being a repeat of the VA experiment out of MEL.
 
jrfspa320
Posts: 512
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:59 am

Why are the australian ETOPS rules so much stricter than everywhere else?
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:23 am

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 84):
Why are the australian ETOPS rules so much stricter than everywhere else?

If you believe some people on here it's because QF only fly quads on extended over-water missions, meaning that CASA is giving them a competitive advantage. I don't buy that argument myself...
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Gemuser
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:24 am

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 84):
Why are the australian ETOPS rules so much stricter than everywhere else?

CASA has an inherent fear of a big jet going down in the Great Southern Ocean as there basically NO possibility of rescue. In fact if you look deeper into the CASA documents it is possible that they will prevent quads from using EDTO >180 from 2015/17. (I don't actually expect that to happen, but the area will be the last hold out for quad engined jets.) They basically claim, I believe, that no where else in the world has the combination of remoteness and freezing weather that the Great Southern Ocean has.

Have a look at:

http://www.casa.gov.au/newrules/ops/edto/nfrm0608os.htm
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...ps/edto/download/nfrm0608os_ac.pdf

Note the terms used to specify requirements. What do they mean? What ever CASA want them to mean, which means approval is a moving target. Now go and look at the NZ CAA web site and search EDTO. You'll see the requirements are crystal clear, perhaps too clear  

I don't know that I actually disagree with CASA's position, that part of the world is incredibly remote and cold. In comparison the Arctic is not as cold and no where near as remote.

Gemuser
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Avianca
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:29 am

Quoting Checo77 (Reply 76):
I was just checking AR´s vs. LA´s fares into SYD and AR were cheaper by half over LA. Wow. Really interesting.
The product is definitely worse, but still, their pricing seemed reasonable (return ticket in June for 1300 dollars).

only issue is that your transit time with LA is ex LIM for example 20 hours, via EZE on AR like 120 hours  
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
thegeek
Posts: 1334
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RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:12 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 86):
I don't know that I actually disagree with CASA's position, that part of the world is incredibly remote and cold. In comparison the Arctic is not as cold and no where near as remote.

The part that I do disagree with is allowing old 747s to do it even though they were never intended to (to my knowledge) while much newer 777s, designed with ETOPS in mind, aren't allowed.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5022
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 88):
The part that I do disagree with is allowing old 747s to do it even though they were never intended to (to my knowledge) while much newer 777s, designed with ETOPS in mind, aren't allowed.

See quote below. Historically quads never had diversion time restrictions of any kind, it is quite possible that part of the plan is to remove quads from EDTO >180, although I think QF would fight this, where as I don't think they have a real problem, in the technical ranks, at least, with not doing twin operations in the Deep South, but who knows?

Quoting gemuser (Reply 86):
In fact if you look deeper into the CASA documents it is possible that they will prevent quads from using EDTO >180 from 2015/17


Gemuser
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MD11junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:44 am

Quoting dennys (Reply 50):
thank you !

But apprently A342 has already this cabin Class Y cl seats number for all routes .

The A340-200 is a long-range wide body aircraft. Here, it is configured in two classes: 217 economy class seats and 32 business or Condor Class seats.

AR's config of the A340-200 is 32C 217Y, but when operating the route, will be limited to 32C 189Y.

Saludos,
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
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United787
Posts: 2882
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:57 am

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 54):
Pretty basic.

Thank You!!!

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 54):
NZ are looking at South America with 787s which should be allowed to fly there long ETOPS routes in a few years and their 777s will aswell, weather any can operate GRU/GIG-AKL with a decent load remains to be seen.
Quoting motorhussy (Reply 69):
I also hope this opens the gate for NZ to start operating an AKL-EZE-GRU service.

I think NZ should consider AKL-LIM which would provide lots of Star Alliance connections on both ends with TACA, they could even do a GRU tag on!
 
aeroflop
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:12 am

RE: AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop

Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:32 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 77):
A very long flight with no seat-back IFE in Y.

Good IFE is a MUST for any flight over 3 hours. I don't bring my own entertainment on flights anymore because I assume that the airline will have AVOD. Looks like it would be a rude surprise on AR.

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