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tullamarine
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:33 am

I know this has been rumoured (and denied) before, but the respected Plane Talking blog is again discussing the increasing rumours in HKG that CX is considering leaving Oneworld and joining Star. Apparently rumours that Hainan are interested in joining OW are fueling the CX to Star talk.

Like Plane Talking, I tend to doubt the benefits of these global alliances with the seriously strong airlines paying them lip service and then making real bilateral alliances with any other airline they think can contribure to their own profit. Originally these alliances were thought to lead to the creation of alliance-wide aircraft orders, common service and hard-product standards and truly universal frequent flyer schemes where your recognition was the same regardless of which alliance airline you flew. None of this has happened or is likely to happen in the forseeable future.
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eta unknown
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:59 am

So CX is pissed with Hainan joining OW, so the CX response would be to jump into bed with Air China, EVA, and Shenzhen?
 
aeroblogger
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 1):
CX response would be to jump into bed with Air China, Eva, and Shenzhen?

CX is owned by CA... (or maybe it is the other way around?). And ZH is a subsidiary of CA...

I think CX would have a bigger problem with SQ than BR...
#AvGeek
 
ChazPilot
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:08 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 1):

You left Shanghai Airlines off the list. CX to *Alliance about as likely as a Sir Richard selling his airline to BA.
 
United Airline
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:13 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 2):

CX is owned by CA... (or maybe it is the other way around?). And ZH is a subsidiary of CA...

CX owns CA shares while CA also owns CX shares. KA is 100% owned by CX while Swire Group is the largest shareholder of CX group
 
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BreninTW
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 2):
CX is owned by CA... (or maybe it is the other way around?).

CX is majority owned by the Swire group. I believe CA is primarily goverment owned, although CX does own a less-than-20% share in CA (reference: http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_...boutus/cxbackground/subsidiaries).

KA was a joint venture between the two, but has since been bought out by CX to create a wholly-owned subsidiary.
 
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American 767
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:15 am

Wasn't CX one of the founding members of the One World alliance? I'd be very surprised if a member who was a founder of the alliance leaves. It's like if TG or SK leaves Star.
Oh no CX is not leaving. There is more probability that US leaves Star for One World, than CX leaves One World for Star.
Then what rumor are we going to hear next? QF leaving One World for Sky Team?

I was shocked right at the fraction of second when I saw the topic CX to Star.
Ben Soriano
 
aeroblogger
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting American 767 (Reply 6):

I was shocked right at the fraction of second when I saw the topic CX to Star.

I wasn't. According to many people I've spoken to, CX is rather miffed right now between JetStar Hong Kong and Hainan joining OW...
#AvGeek
 
rogercamel
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:34 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 2):
I think CX would have a bigger problem with SQ than BR...

How much direct competition is there between CX and SQ other than flights that SIN-HKG? The two cities are a 3.45 flight apart. There are perhaps a few secondary destinations (e.g. SGN) that would be equally sensible to get through either from Europe, but otherwise for China HKG makes more sense, for SE Asia SQ makes more sense.
 
celestar
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:51 am

Why would CX be concerned about Hainan joing One world?
If I am not wrong, Hainan owns Hong Kong Airlines, the low price airline based in HK.
Hainan should be in no way, a threat or anything remotely close, to affect CX dominance.
Same way, from talking with friends in HK, they think HK airlines is worse than PRC based airlines in terms of service and travel experience, it is just dirt cheap, fare wise.
Hope someone can enlighten me on this.
 
Byrdluvs747
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:48 am

Quoting tullamarine (Thread starter):
Apparently rumours that Hainan are interested in joining OW

 

So some "blog" is reporting about years old rumors of HU wanting to join OW is an indication of CX defecting to *A? HU has wanted to join OW since 2006, so its no revelation of their intentions.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 7):
and Hainan joining OW
Quoting eta unknown (Reply 1):
So CX is pissed with Hainan joining OW

HU is not joining OW. They've only announced codeshares with OW member carriers.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:35 am

Quoting celestar (Reply 9):

Why would CX be concerned about Hainan joing One world?
If I am not wrong, Hainan owns Hong Kong Airlines, the low price airline based in HK.
Hainan should be in no way, a threat or anything remotely close, to affect CX dominance.
Same way, from talking with friends in HK, they think HK airlines is worse than PRC based airlines in terms of service and travel experience, it is just dirt cheap, fare wise.
Hope someone can enlighten me on this.

Hong Kong Airlines conception and early history is far different from their reality under HNA ownership.

Basically, this is the simplified reality of HKA:

You think of them as a rink dink low cost operations flying 737s around. That may have been true in the past.

To see the future look no further than HKA's order book and current plans for business only London service. They are beginning to launch a full-on assault on Cathay Pacific in every way. The have the orders, the pocketbooks, determination, and experience of HU's success as a high quality carrier to fully challenge every aspect of CX's business in a way that has never been done before. They are legit. They have big plans, and its already beginning. CX will never, nor should they, want to play nice with them.

The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
cargolex
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:54 am

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 5):
KA was a joint venture between the two, but has since been bought out by CX to create a wholly-owned subsidiary.

CA had nothing to do with KA's formation. KA was originally a private airline created by investors in Hong Kong and Macau, which was later bought by Swire.

One reason KA has such a strong presence in mainland China is that early on, Cathay was the preferred flag carrier of the Hong Kong government, and so Cathay usually got better route allocations - as Hong Kong favored only having one carrier per route. In the 1980s, routes to Europe and Japan were desirable, routes to places like Hangzhou, Wuhan, and Guilin were not - and so that's the network that Dragonair could develop early on. But it had nothing to do with Air China/CAAC in those early days.

After failing first to stop the creation of a local competitor altogether and then to stop it from getting any real market traction, Cathay took a majority share of KA in 1990. During that period, CX bolstered KA's mainland network by either transferring services from CX to KA or by allowing KA to open more destinations in China.

Six years later, CNAC, the big Chinese aviation holding company, took majority interest in KA, but Cathay bought the entirety of it in 2006 in a giant share swap.
 
TruemanQLD
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CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:58 am

I hope so, would be nice to have an airline that works with its partners and would benefit everyone else in the alliance if Hainan joined, though they don't have the international present, they would be a greater benefit to OW than CX is
 
UAL777UK
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:19 am

Whilst CX is not as tight as I think it should be with the BA and QF, I dont beleive foe one minute that CX will jump ship to Star. As a Star junkie I would love it but I certainly wont be holding my breath!
 
United Airline
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:45 am

How much does Citic own now?
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:38 am

Quoting ChazPilot (Reply 3):
You left Shanghai Airlines off the list. CX to *Alliance about as likely as a Sir Richard selling his airline to BA.

I believe Shaghai left when they were taken over by MU and now are a SkyTeam member with parent MU.....

Changing alliances is about as hard as it gets. Trying to unwind from one and join another is extremely obtuse. I would be very surprised if this happens.
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
jfk777
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:27 am

Singapore Airlines would have a big problem with Cathay joining the Star Alliance. CX is their biggest rival , being in the same alliance would be too close for comfort.
 
ORDJOE
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:14 pm

People you have to understand Hainan has no plans on joining OW nor has OW been actively courting Hainan, could there be behind the scenese talks going on,sure it is possible, but as of now there are no significant rumors on them joining.

These threads start every year and yet CX still is in OW.
 
airbazar
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:18 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
Singapore Airlines would have a big problem with Cathay joining the Star Alliance. CX is their biggest rival , being in the same alliance would be too close for comfort.

How can 2 airlines that have little overlap and respective hubs separated by 1,400 miles, be rivals? SQ has far bigger problems with EK than they'll ever have with CX.
 
ordbosewr
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:25 pm

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 16):
I believe Shaghai left when they were taken over by MU and now are a SkyTeam member with parent MU.....

This is 100% correct.
 
qf002
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:45 pm

If CX ever leaves OW, it will be to distance themselves from alliances altogether. The partnerships with airlines like BA, AA and QF have helped build CX up over the past decade, but they really don't need these partnerships anymore. Anything that OW partners can offer them can be easily replaced by one-on-one codeshare deals with smaller local airlines.

CX in * is madness. CX by themselves (a la EK) could make sense.
 
JAL
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:27 pm

I highly doubt CX would join Star given the close proximity of SQ ; TG not to mention the numerous Chinese Airlines in Star.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
UAL777UK
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 21):
If CX ever leaves OW, it will be to distance themselves from alliances altogether. The partnerships with airlines like BA, AA and QF have helped build CX up over the past decade, but they really don't need these partnerships anymore. Anything that OW partners can offer them can be easily replaced by one-on-one codeshare deals with smaller local airlines.

CX in * is madness. CX by themselves (a la EK) could make sense.

Whilst I agree that CX going to * or any other alliance is madness I would hardly call it a partnership with BA and QF. They seem to be poles apart and have been for years.
 
jfk777
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 19):
How can 2 airlines that have little overlap and respective hubs separated by 1,400 miles, be rivals? SQ has far bigger problems with EK than they'll ever have with CX.
Quoting JAL (Reply 22):
I highly doubt CX would join Star given the close proximity of SQ ; TG not to mention the numerous Chinese Airlines in Star.

SQ & CX in the same alliance would be like AF and LH or BA and LH. In Europe things are closer then in Asia. Those 1,400 miles from Singapore to Hong Kong are the European equal to LHR to FRA. Thai is NOT on the same league as SQ and CX, its a good airline but not a threat to SQ and Thai was in Star before Singapore Air was.

OW provides CX with one airline partner in each continent they fly to and in the USA I could NOT see CX with United or Delta.

If any major airline should switch alliances its SAA from Star to OW. But that probably will not happen.
 
Thrust
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:33 pm

Isn't CX still a member of OneWorld?
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
leftyboarder
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 24):


If any major airline should switch alliances its SAA from Star to SA)">OW. But that probably will not happen.

  

I guess this is how things turned out and all, but I also can't help but think SA seems like it belongs with AA / BA / QF. With the plethora of airlines in Africa in *A, they are no longer that vital to *A either. And SA)">OW lacks any footing in Africa.
 
jfk777
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:48 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 26):
I guess this is how things turned out and all, but I also can't help but think SA seems like it belongs with AA / BA / QF. With the plethora of airlines in Africa in *A, they are no longer that vital to *A either. And SA)">OW lacks any footing in Africa.

Of the qualiry airline in Africa : Star has EgyptAir, SAA and Ethiopian: Skyteam has RAM and Kenya Airways. OW has none on the continent. Delta(Skyteam) also has a decent presence for a US airline.
 
bmacleod
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:51 pm

With AA and QF mired in financial trouble the future of Oneworld is shaky at best. Looks like a good move for CX to get out now before things get worse.....

[Edited 2012-03-30 11:52:04]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
kiwiandrew

RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 27):
Of the qualiry airline in Africa : Star has EgyptAir, SAA and Ethiopian: Skyteam has RAM and Kenya Airways. OW has none on the continent. Delta(Skyteam) also has a decent presence for a US airline.

Going way off topic here but

OW has a presence , albeit pretty limited, through BA franchise partner Comair based in JNB.

Back on topic, while I would love to see a swap... CX goes to Star who in turn manage to offload SQ to OW ... I just don't see it happening ( barring a major behind the scenes push by the PRC government ... and I cannot think of any reson why they would do that )
 
usflyer msp
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 26):
I guess this is how things turned out and all, but I also can't help but think SA seems like it belongs with AA / BA / QF. With the plethora of airlines in Africa in *A, they are no longer that vital to *A either. And SA)">OW lacks any footing in Africa.

Except that BA (Comair) is SAA's largest competitor in South Africa. Not going to work. They'd prob. do better in SkyTeam.
 
Viscount724
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 19):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
Singapore Airlines would have a big problem with Cathay joining the Star Alliance. CX is their biggest rival , being in the same alliance would be too close for comfort.

How can 2 airlines that have little overlap and respective hubs separated by 1,400 miles, be rivals?

CX and SQ are both major players in the large Europe-Australia/New Zealand market.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7466
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 31):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
Singapore Airlines would have a big problem with Cathay joining the Star Alliance. CX is their biggest rival , being in the same alliance would be too close for comfort.

How can 2 airlines that have little overlap and respective hubs separated by 1,400 miles, be rivals?

CX and SQ are both major players in the large Europe-Australia/New Zealand market.

Because these two are the best in the world, people wil go out of their way to fly them and they compete on many connections. If you need to write a text book on how to sell to connecting traffic these two are the Harvard and Oxford of teh airline world, Emirates is great too.
 
BOACCunard
Posts: 316
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:29 am

Is unanimity among the existing members required to admit a new member to oneworld? If that is the case, then CX could simply block HU's membership if other members wanted to join.
Getting There is Half the Fun!
 
qf002
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:11 am

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 23):
Whilst I agree that CX going to * or any other alliance is madness I would hardly call it a partnership with BA and QF. They seem to be poles apart and have been for years.

When OW was formed, CX's route network was far smaller than it is today. To North America especially, CX relied on AA to feed their flights, and to a lesser extent, in Europe and Australia as well, with BA and QF respectively.

I agree that they're all very distant from each other today (a clear argument for a break away from OW), but a decade ago, CX had a lot to benefit from OW airlines. Just because it appears to have little to benefit from OW today doesn't mean that OW wasn't a necessary part of their recent expansion.
 
ZKOJH
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RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:39 am

Could you imagine HKG becoming a major STAR HUB in ASIA! that would piss on LHR haha-haha

Over the next couple of years think there will be a lot of switches between airlines and alliances the world is changing and company's have to be happy with each other !

Would very much like CX to come across to Star now that we have EVA Air coming in next year, the only thing that needs to change is the 50 US$ charge to join the 'Marco Polo Club'!
Air New Zealand ~ dreams of flying
 
timboflier215
Posts: 807
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 7:54 am

RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:14 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 19):

You also need to understand the intense rivalry between HK/Singapore, of which the CX/SQ rivalry is merely an extension. If CX refuses to work closely with QF, there's no way they'll cosy up to SQ.

I think that QF's creation of JetStar HK is probably more of an annoyance to CX than HU potentially having talks with OW. Whilst CX and JQ may not compete that directly on product, any airline muscling in on your turf is unlikely to be welcomed, especially if that airline is owned by a supposed partner.
 
TeamintheSky
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:18 am

RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:41 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 27):
Of the qualiry airline in Africa : Star has EgyptAir, SAA and Ethiopian: Skyteam has RAM and Kenya Airways. OW has none on the continent. Delta(Skyteam) also has a decent presence for a US airline.

By RAM I believe you mean Royal Air Maroc, which is not actually in SkyTeam. AT does have a relationship with Delta however as I believe they codeshare on a JFK flight to CMN.

AT probably is the last African carrier that is unaligned that an alliance would take on one day.



Further to the discussion, I wonder where the law of diminishing returns is met for Star. The alliance has already nearly double the members that either of the other do. At some point, surely it cannot be beneficial to keep adding on carriers.
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
jfk777
Posts: 7466
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: CX To Join Star Alliance?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:02 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 34):
When OW was formed, CX's route network was far smaller than it is today. To North America especially, CX relied on AA to feed their flights, and to a lesser extent, in Europe and Australia as well, with BA and QF respectively.

I agree that they're all very distant from each other today (a clear argument for a break away from OW), but a decade ago, CX had a lot to benefit from OW airlines. Just because it appears to have little to benefit from OW today doesn't mean that OW wasn't a necessary part of their recent expansion.

Cathay's route network when it joined OW is NOT too different then what it is today. Perhaps JFK and Chicago are the two cities it now flies to because the 77W allows nonstops from HKG. Europe is about the same if not smaller, Zurich is no longer served. JNB is the lone African city. LHR is still the main European city flown to four times daily. Asia and Australia are covered with the huge A330 and 777 classic fleets. Vancouver, SFO and LAX have been flown to sine the 1980's, so not all that much has changed.

The airplanes are more capable, the 744 made California nonstop & the 777-300ER makes Toronto and JFK closer then ever.

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