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krisyyz
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YYZ-AMS Ops KL/TS/AC

Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:08 pm

I did find this older post regarding the KL's YYZ ops but its been archived.
KLM At YYZ (by kl692 Nov 7 2011 in Civil Aviation)

I'm flying YYZ-BUD-YYZ on KL in a few weeks.

KL 692 A332 dep: 1735
KL696 A332 dep:2255
KL696 B74M dep:2305 (twice a week)

It seems the 74M flight is has a 10 minute faster flight than the A332. What is KL's aircraft usage for the summer months to YYZ? Will we see B772/MD11s again?

I also vaguely recall KL operating a morning flight to YYZ, I think it arrived before noon at YYZ, will that flight be reinstated for the summer?

KL also codeshares with AF and with WS via YUL.

TS operates 3x A313 to AM, I think.

AC also operated a B762 to AMS a few years ago. I would assume they ended that flight because AC had little option for onwards travel from AMS , although they could have codeshared on some LH flights from AMS. Any chance AC may resume their AMS flights once they have enough 767s in their fleet?

There is a lot of capacity on the YYZ-AMS sector. It would be interesting to find out the ratio of transit pax via AMS tourist traffic on this sector.

KrisYYZ
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: YYZ-AMS Ops KL/TS/AC

Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:57 pm

I think AMS will be a fair ways off if at all. You are right there is no real hub traffic there for them via Star partners. Far better to keep the LHR and FRA hubs busy then to fragment further. There also isn't sufficient premium traffic or cargo on the flight to keep profitability higher. It is possible that if the LCC AC is toying with, goes ahead you might see tourist/travel package flights to AMS a couple times a week.
 
Steelhead
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RE: YYZ-AMS Ops KL/TS/AC

Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:22 pm

There are also the twice-weekly flights with Sunwing/Arkefly B-767 between AMS and YYZ in the summer
 
Joost
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RE: YYZ-AMS Ops KL/TS/AC

Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Thread starter):
AC also operated a B762 to AMS a few years ago. I would assume they ended that flight because AC had little option for onwards travel from AMS , although they could have codeshared on some LH flights from AMS

Was't it a 763? I flew AMS-YYZ(-YUL) on AC in 2002, and I'm sure it was a 767 but I didn't log the regs back then, so I can't be sure.

It offered great Canadian connections from their YYZ hub of course. On the AMS-end, next to LH, they could also connect to SK (OSL, CPH, ARN) and OS. Back in the days, LX wasn't a StarAlliance member yet.

AMS-YYZ is very summer-seasonal. About a year ago, I read an interview that AC considered returing to AMS once the 787s arrived, although summer-only.
 
mainMAN
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RE: YYZ-AMS Ops KL/TS/AC

Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Thread starter):
It would be interesting to find out the ratio of transit pax via AMS tourist traffic on this sector.

I'd say it was quite considerable, without knowing any numbers. With the exception of TS, the UK regions are short of direct Canada services, so KL is a popular choice, often with reasonable fares.
 
LJ
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RE: YYZ-AMS Ops KL/TS/AC

Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:42 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Thread starter):

It seems the 74M flight is has a 10 minute faster flight than the A332. What is KL's aircraft usage for the summer months to YYZ? Will we see B772/MD11s again?

KL691/2 A332 only
KL695/6 mix of 74E and 777

Quoting krisyyz (Thread starter):

TS operates 3x A313 to AM, I think.

Scheduled are 4 weekly with 1 A332 during peak moment (June 14th - September 6th) on Thursday and on April 5th (all other flights 313).
 
LJ
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RE: YYZ-AMS Ops KL/TS/AC

Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Thread starter):

AC also operated a B762 to AMS a few years ago. I would assume they ended that flight because AC had little option for onwards travel from AMS , although they could have codeshared on some LH flights from AMS. Any chance AC may resume their AMS flights once they have enough 767s in their fleet?

No they won't return. AC failed miserably at AMS (couldn't get the business pax) and I'm sure they'll never going to fly to AMS again (they failed twice if I'm not mistaken). The reason why AC failed has nothing to do with onward connections (which they actually had), but more the fact that TS captures the holiday traffic and KL made sure they got the business pax. Thus AC was squeezed between TS and KL. Furthermore, AC is not well known in The Netherlands.

BTW you forget the two weekly flights by Arkefly

[Edited 2012-03-30 13:03:04]
 
Viscount724
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RE: YYZ-AMS Ops KL/TS/AC

Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 6):
Quoting krisyyz (Thread starter):

AC also operated a B762 to AMS a few years ago. I would assume they ended that flight because AC had little option for onwards travel from AMS , although they could have codeshared on some LH flights from AMS. Any chance AC may resume their AMS flights once they have enough 767s in their fleet?

No they won't return. AC failed miserably at AMS (couldn't get the business pax) and I'm sure they'll never going to fly to AMS again (they failed twice if I'm not mistaken). The reason why AC failed has nothing to do with onward connections (which they actually had), but more the fact that TS captures the holiday traffic and KL made sure they got the business pax. Thus AC was squeezed between TS and KL. Furthermore, AC is not well known in The Netherlands.
AC's predecessor CP Air.Canadian Airlines was very well-known in the Netherlands, having served AMS for almost 50 years. At one point CP had nonstop service from 7 cities in Canada to AMS. However the market was rarely profitable due to all the problems already mentioned including seasonal traffic and little premium traffic. There was also a lot of charter competition from carries like Wardair in those years which depressed yields..

Most CP traffic was connecting beyond AMS and since that had to interlined, the yield was further diluted.

For all carriers other than KLM, Canada-AMS makes more sense for leisure carriers like Air Transat that can cater to the highly-seaasonal O&D VFR summer traffic.


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[Edited 2012-03-30 14:05:49]
 
krisyyz
Topic Author
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RE: YYZ-AMS Ops KL/TS/AC

Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:31 am

Quoting joost (Reply 3):
Was't it a 763? I flew AMS-YYZ(-YUL) on AC in 2002, and I'm sure it was a 767 but I didn't log the regs back then, so I can't be sure.

It may have been. I do remember that AC flew the domestically configured B762 the last year of operations. The front end had "premium economy" section, not the executive first seating.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 1):
It is possible that if the LCC AC is toying with, goes ahead you might see tourist/travel package flights to AMS a couple times a week.
Quoting LJ (Reply 6):

BTW you forget the two weekly flights by Arkefly
Quoting steelhead (Reply 2):
There are also the twice-weekly flights with Sunwing/Arkefly B-767 between AMS and YYZ in the summe

I did forget about Arkefly, I guess AC's LCC brand (if it every materializes) could survive at AMS if they can beat TS's fares.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
At one point CP had nonstop service from 7 cities in Canada to AMS

Wow! Didn't know that.

Quoting LJ (Reply 5):
KL695/6 mix of 74E and 777

I guess it's also important to remember that KL's B772s seat 43 more pax than their B74Es.

Thanks!

KrisYYZ
 
LJ
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RE: YYZ-AMS Ops KL/TS/AC

Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:17 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
AC's predecessor CP Air.Canadian Airlines was very well-known in the Netherlands, having served AMS for almost 50 years. At one point CP had nonstop service from 7 cities in Canada to AMS. However the market was rarely profitable due to all the problems already mentioned including seasonal traffic and little premium traffic.

Yes..I remember them. They indeed had a good reputation in The Netherlands. However, when Canadian started flying to LHR and other European destinations it all ended.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
There was also a lot of charter competition from carries like Wardair in those years which depressed yields..

Yes and Canada 3000 which also visited AMS frequently after Canadian left and Wardair folded into Canadian.

BTW didn't RJ also route its AMM-YYZ thru AMS at one point? Or was it SQ?
 
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RE: YYZ-AMS Ops KL/TS/AC

Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 9):
However, when Canadian started flying to LHR and other European destinations it all ended.

Yes, I remember reading in a company publication that when CP started LHR operations, the yield increase over AMS operations tripled!

Today, AMS would be a final destination only for AC passengers. Not that excellent connections don't exist in AMS, more that Star Alliance partners provide a more seamless connection through FRA, MUC, ZRH, GVA, BRU, etc etc etc. Thus a higher yield passenger is more likely to choose a connection there.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!

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