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kmot
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737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:54 am

Both Boeing and Airbus tout the option of 5 abreast seating in their aircraft characteristics manuals. Has any airline operated a 737 or A320 featuring this option (4 Abreast First, 5 Abreast Business, 6 Abreast Economy)?
 
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Qatara340
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:03 am

Quoting kmot (Thread starter):


Both Boeing and Airbus tout the option of 5 abreast seating in their aircraft characteristics manuals. Has any airline operated a 737 or A320 featuring this option (4 Abreast First, 5 Abreast Business, 6 Abreast Economy)?

I remember at one point Gulf Air had 3 classes onboard its A320s!

2x2 First
2x3 Business
and 3x3 Economy.

That has since been changed though.
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NZ107
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:12 am

Quoting kmot (Thread starter):
Has any airline operated a 737 or A320 featuring this option (4 Abreast First, 5 Abreast Business, 6 Abreast Economy)?

Air New Zealand's predecessor NAC did a long time ago on their 732s. Mind you this was Economy.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bob Leask



These days, it's just not viable to 'leave out' 20-30 seats when the current 737/A320 seats are just fine at 3-3.

[Edited 2012-03-31 22:13:43]
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kmot
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:16 am

I prefer a wider seat rather then leg room. No matter how much pitch they give between seats, unless 40", you still have to get up to let someone out. I rather the "Premium" economy keep the same pitch but make the seats wider.
 
Concordski
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:26 am

Estonian Air (I still believe) flies with 5 seats in a row in business on their single 737-500 jet.
 
usflyer msp
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:53 am

SAA and BA (Comair) 737's have 5-abreast business class on their narrowbody aircraft.
 
kmot
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:02 am

Is this true 5 abreast or convertible 6 abreast?
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:08 am

Quoting kmot (Reply 6):
Is this true 5 abreast or convertible 6 abreast?



For SAA 737s its a "true" 5 abreast, the seats are Ricaro
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flyPBA
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:31 am

from a 737-100 marketing brochure on Flickr

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6074/6066685196_08d99de3fb_b.jpg
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:42 am

Quoting flyPBA (Reply 8):
from a 737-100 marketing brochure on Flickr

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I love ads from the '60's.
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kmot
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:30 pm

Nope, there is a black person just ahead of the Flight Attendant on the 2 seat side. Look how wide the Aisle is! Its amazing that the seats on the 737 are just as wide as those found on a CRJ!
 
Joost
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:36 pm

KLM had a 3-2 configuration on their 737s until 2003 or 2004 or so. There is one picture of them in the database:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Europix - AirTeamImages



Later, they converted their European business product to 3-3 seating, selling all seats; since 2011, the policy was changed to block middle seats for the European business product.
 
L1011
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:39 pm

Piedmont had 2 x 3 seating in their 737-200s until around 1980.

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kgaiflyer
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:40 pm

There appear to be *no* bins at all.

Where did fliers place their life's possessions back then ?
 
nws2002
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 13):
There appear to be *no* bins at all.

Where did fliers place their life's possessions back then ?

They checked them.
 
connies4ever
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:19 pm

When initially delivered, AC's A320s were 2-3 in J (3 on the right) and 3-3 in Y. IIRC it was 30J/107Y. Not sure when it was changed over, but the next cabin iteration was 24J/108Y with J being 2-2. This has 'progressed' to the current 14J/132Y.

The A319s and A321s were always 2-2 in J and 3-3 in Y.
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zrs70
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting joost (Reply 11):
KLM had a 3-2 configuration on their 737s until 2003 or 2004 or so. There is one picture of them in the database

Yeah, I remember flying that configuration a couple of times!
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Viscount724
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting L1011 (Reply 12):
Piedmont had 2 x 3 seating in their 737-200s until around 1980.

If memory correct the original Frontier also had 2-3 seating on their 732s for some time.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 15):
When initially delivered, AC's A320s were 2-3 in J (3 on the right) and 3-3 in Y.

It made AC's J product on A320s uncompetitive with CP which had more spacious 2-2 seating in J. If memory correct, AC responded to that by not selling the middle seat in the 3-abreast section, before they eventually also went to 2-2.
 
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tjcab
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:45 pm

Didn't some airlines have those business-class seats that could be expanded from 2 to 3 abreast?
 
kmot
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:08 pm

Are there any cabin photos of Gulf Air's 3 class A320's?
 
Viscount724
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting TJCAB (Reply 18):
Didn't some airlines have those business-class seats that could be expanded from 2 to 3 abreast?

Yes, BA and LH to name two. LH replaced them with standard 3-3 Y seats a few years ago (with the middle seat unsold when part of the J cabin).

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 16):
Quoting joost (Reply 11):
KLM had a 3-2 configuration on their 737s until 2003 or 2004 or so. There is one picture of them in the database

Yeah, I remember flying that configuration a couple of times!

Swissair had similar dedicated 3-2 business class seats on their A19/320/321s320s originally. Forget how many rows of those seats there were, probably at least 6 or 7. That didn't last very long and they replaced them with convertible seats that could be either 2-3 in J or 3-3 in Y. The convertible seats were used in roughly the first half of the cabin, with standard 3-3 Y seats further back. After those aircraft wound up with LX after Swissair went bust, LX eventually replaced all the seats with lightweight 3-3 seats (permitting a few more rows of seats), also with the middle seat unsold when used as business class, the current practice for virtually all major European carriers.
 
cloudboy
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:57 am

So on the 3-2 737 and 320, are the seats wider, or does that extra space go into the aisle and between the seat and the window?
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flyPBA
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:55 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 13):
There appear to be *no* bins at all.

Where did fliers place their life's possessions back then ?

no airliners had bins in the 1960s ... only that running shelf for coats and such.

here's a link to the rest of the brochure: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gordonwerner/sets/72157627485866400/

[Edited 2012-04-01 20:57:31]
 
flyPBA
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 21):
So on the 3-2 737 and 320, are the seats wider, or does that extra space go into the aisle and between the seat and the window?

in the photo I posted ... the seats were wider and the aisle was wider (compare how the 2x3 looks to the 3x3 below)

seat plan options

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6071/6066648658_9b51957152_b.jpg

[Edited 2012-04-01 20:58:54]

[Edited 2012-04-01 21:00:17]
 
milesrich
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:16 am

The 2nd to the last page is the best. It has the economic assumptions. Fuel WAS TEN CENTS A GALLON.
 
b735
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:36 am

Quote:
Estonian Air (I still believe) flies with 5 seats in a row in business on their single 737-500 jet.

It has been a few years since this was changed. Estonian now operates the standard 3+3, with the middle seat free for convenience. Too bad, as those big leather seats were very comfortable.

Also, Estonian Air is down to one single B735, which is about to be removed from the fleet out shortly. Future fleet will be based on E170/190's.
 
vv701
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:31 am

Quoting kmot (Thread starter):
Has any airline operated a 737 or A320 featuring this option (4 Abreast First, 5 Abreast Business, 6 Abreast Economy)?

9W's 738s' Premiere (Business) Class Cabin is configured 2-2 while the the Economy Class is configured 3-3. If memory serves me the seat pitch in the Premiere cabin was 44", its width 21".

9W also operat a small number of 700 series 737 aircraft that are probably similarly configured.
 
connies4ever
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:41 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
It made AC's J product on A320s uncompetitive with CP which had more spacious 2-2 seating in J. If memory correct, AC responded to that by not selling the middle seat in the 3-abreast section, before they eventually also went to 2-2.

Actually not so, I had a middle twice on the 320. Comfortable enough, but compared to a 2-2 arrangement, not nearly as attractive.
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FlyPIJets
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:48 pm

Piedmont Airliners back in the 70's had their 737-200 delivered in a 2-3 config. It quickly changes with deregulation.
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northstardc4m
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:54 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 15):
When initially delivered, AC's A320s were 2-3 in J (3 on the right) and 3-3 in Y. IIRC it was 30J/107Y. Not sure when it was changed over, but the next cabin iteration was 24J/108Y with J being 2-2. This has 'progressed' to the current 14J/132Y.

I also experienced the 2-3 J class A320s... 1995 I think was the last time...
I never understood why AC did that, the 727s were 2-2 in J...
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
connies4ever
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:14 pm

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 29):
I also experienced the 2-3 J class A320s... 1995 I think was the last time...
I never understood why AC did that, the 727s were 2-2 in J...

Hmmm...my recollection of J in the three-holer was 2-3. But I could be wrong of course.

One thing I miss about the 727 vs the A320 is how well the 727 did in turbulence. The 320 gets tossed around a fair bit, the heavier 727 just plowed though it.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
roseflyer
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:57 pm

JAL has 737-800s with 5 abreast 40'' pitch business class. I guess that is what the Japanese market demands, but they have more pitch than typical (36-38 for business class is typical), but the seats are narrower.
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n7371f
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:00 pm

Alaska tested 5-across first class seating 10-15 years ago.
 
Viscount724
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:52 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 27):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
It made AC's J product on A320s uncompetitive with CP which had more spacious 2-2 seating in J. If memory correct, AC responded to that by not selling the middle seat in the 3-abreast section, before they eventually also went to 2-2.

Actually not so, I had a middle twice on the 320. Comfortable enough, but compared to a 2-2 arrangement, not nearly as attractive.

I think it may have varied by route. I just have a recollection that on certain longer routes where AC and CP both used the A320, AC didn't sell the middle seat, but on the many routes where CP wasn't a competitive factor, they no doubt did.

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 29):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 15):
When initially delivered, AC's A320s were 2-3 in J (3 on the right) and 3-3 in Y. IIRC it was 30J/107Y. Not sure when it was changed over, but the next cabin iteration was 24J/108Y with J being 2-2. This has 'progressed' to the current 14J/132Y.

I also experienced the 2-3 J class A320s... 1995 I think was the last time...
I never understood why AC did that, the 727s were 2-2 in J...

The 727s were 2-2 since those were F class seats when those aircraft were delivered. I can't recall any airline that offered a product called First Class having a middle seat, regardless of aircraft type. By the time the A320s arrived, AC had dropped F class service.
 
Camohe
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 1):
I remember at one point Gulf Air had 3 classes onboard its A320s!

2x2 First
2x3 Business
and 3x3 Economy.

That has since been changed though.

Indeed, I flew on a Gulf Air A320 in J from ATH to BAH in 1997. I think the seat pitch was about 36/37" at 5 abreast. F was about 45" at 4 abreast. I remember connecting at BAH for SYD via SIN. Back then their A340 J class was 2-2-2 at 40" pitch. How times have changed!

I also remember flying on a KLM 737 with the fixed 5 abreast J cabin from Milan to AMS in 1998.
 
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longhauler
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:07 am

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 29):
I never understood why AC did that, the 727s were 2-2 in J...
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 30):
Hmmm...my recollection of J in the three-holer was 2-3. But I could be wrong of course.

When the AC B727s had a premium cabin, (the first delivered were all Y for Rapidairs), it was 2x2, but it was F not J. When it was decided to change from F to J, the B727s were reconfigured 2X3 for J. There may have been an overlap during reconfiguration where a 2x2 cabin was sold as J, but that was not the intent. The F cabin of the B727 was quite a bit smaller at 12, than the planned J cabin of 34.

The original cabins for the B727 were 144Y, then 12F and 120Y, then 34J and 102Y (or 96Y for Caribbean ops). The A320 cabins were 30J and 107Y when delivered, reconfigured to 24J and 108Y.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
I think it may have varied by route. I just have a recollection that on certain longer routes where AC and CP both used the A320, AC didn't sell the middle seat, but on the many routes where CP wasn't a competitive factor, they no doubt did.

This is correct. As CPs A320 were delivered 2x2 in J, AC was at a disadvantage. On competing routes, the middle seat was not sold, but on shorter and non-competing routes, 2x3 was sold until the aircraft were reconfigured to 2x2.
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b727fa
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting flyPBA (Reply 8):
rom a 737-100 marketing brochure on Flickr


You realize how that was just for the hair, right? LOL
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connies4ever
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:28 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
I think it may have varied by route. I just have a recollection that on certain longer routes where AC and CP both used the A320, AC didn't sell the middle seat, but on the many routes where CP wasn't a competitive factor, they no doubt did.


Both times I had a middle it was YWG-YYZ or v.v.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
The 727s were 2-2 since those were F class seats when those aircraft were delivered. I can't recall any airline that offered a product called First Class having a middle seat, regardless of aircraft type. By the time the A320s arrived, AC had dropped F class service.

Refer to Longhauler's post. When F was downgraded to J, the front cabin went to 2-3.
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northstardc4m
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:07 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 35):
When the AC B727s had a premium cabin, (the first delivered were all Y for Rapidairs), it was 2x2, but it was F not J. When it was decided to change from F to J, the B727s were reconfigured 2X3 for J. There may have been an overlap during reconfiguration where a 2x2 cabin was sold as J, but that was not the intent. The F cabin of the B727 was quite a bit smaller at 12, than the planned J cabin of 34.

That would explain it... I only ever got to sit up front on a 727 once, on YTS-YYZ of all things, and I do recall the 2x2, it was around 87 so probably would still of been "F" class seating. It was actually one of the last mainline flights I ever took out of YTS, GX took it all over very soon after.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
Viscount724
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 37):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
I think it may have varied by route. I just have a recollection that on certain longer routes where AC and CP both used the A320, AC didn't sell the middle seat, but on the many routes where CP wasn't a competitive factor, they no doubt did.



Both times I had a middle it was YWG-YYZ or v.v.

I was thinking more of routes of 3 to 4 hours plus like YVR/YYC/YEG-YYZ/YOW/YUL. If memory correct CP used the 732 almost exclusively on YWG-YYZ.
 
djb77
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:19 pm

In the late 80s, when Lufthansa first introduced their A320s (before they got some of their "old" 733+735s), they had glossy information materials that showed their Airbus A320 in a three-class configuration - First with 2x2, Business with 2x3 (presumably convertible) and then economy with 3x3. The economy seats were the yellowish seats with dark-brown tables. I don't know if aircraft ever flew in this configuration but all three classes had bulkead/dividers between them.

I got one of the broschures from a friend of my father's who often went to travel trade fairs - at one such event Lufthansa must have had a booth advertising their ground-braking new A320s. Unfortunately, I threw the glossy out at some point, together with some Dan-Air advertising materials and freebies I had (what was I thinking...?!?)
 
connies4ever
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RE: 737/A320 5 Abreast Seating Option

Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39):
I was thinking more of routes of 3 to 4 hours plus like YVR/YYC/YEG-YYZ/YOW/YUL. If memory correct CP used the 732 almost exclusively on YWG-YYZ.

I flew on CP 320s YWG-YYZ several times early 90s. Pretty much those days I was commuting on business about every 6 weeks or so and also the g.f. was in YYZ, so another reason to travel. With all the various f.f. incentives, it was pretty easy to move up to J from Y. Not so much these days.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

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