New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 113

cchan · Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:04 am

Welcome to the New Zealand aviation thread. In New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 112 (by PA515 Mar 5 2012 in Civil Aviation) we discussed:

- Air Asia X pulls out of CHC
- NZ terminates PEK services, increases PVG
- AR withdraws from AKL
- NZ terminates codeshare with JL, begins codeshare with NH
- TG BKK-AKL switch to 346 cancelled, 772 continue to operate these flights
- Mount Cook ATR service disruptions
- LA reliability
- NZ South American opportunities

Other threads related to New Zealand Aviation:
AR To Drop AKL, Start EZE-SYD Nonstop (by yeogeo Mar 29 2012 in Civil Aviation)

777ER · Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:28 am

Got an e-mail from NZ yesterday informing DPS flights have changed. Now departing AKL at 1905, arrives in DPS at 0035. Departs DPS at 0805, arrives AKL at 2005. Still excellent for connecting flights to AKL but still requires an over-night stay at the airport/hotel

ZK-NBT · Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:43 am

Seems odd. Now a longer turn around in DPS and a midnight arrival. Why now

AKL 1200 DPS 1930
DPS 2100 AKL 0900

They could do that or maybe 1-2 hours later to allow a few more domestic connections for AKL-DPS.

kiwiandrew · Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:48 am

I believe that there is some sort of maintenance work going on (or planned ) at DPS, isn't there? I am sure I read somewhere that this restricts hours of operation.

nascarnut · Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:55 am

The Black 77W scheduled to drop into WLG on its way to do flypast at Wanaka on Sunday 8th.
NZ6693 AKL-WLG 0945-1045
NZ6694 WLG-AKL 1115-1400 via Wanaka

cchan · Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:58 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 1):
Got an e-mail from NZ yesterday informing DPS flights have changed. Now departing AKL at 1905, arrives in DPS at 0035. Departs DPS at 0805, arrives AKL at 2005. Still excellent for connecting flights to AKL but still requires an over-night stay at the airport/hotel

The arrival time is not attractive at all for most tourists. I suspect this maybe an aircraft utilisation issue.

aerohottie · Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:19 am

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 2):
Seems odd. Now a longer turn around in DPS and a midnight arrival. Why now

AKL 1200 DPS 1930
DPS 2100 AKL 0900

They could do that or maybe 1-2 hours later to allow a few more domestic connections for AKL-DPS.

The new schedule seems a bit odd. I like your proposed times though... but would go a few hours later

AKL 1500 DPS 2230
DPS 2359 AKL 1200

777ER · Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:14 am

Quoting cchan (Reply 5):

How would it be an aircraft usage issue with the long lay over in DPS?

cchan · Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:23 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 7):
How would it be an aircraft usage issue with the long lay over in DPS?

Depends on which flight the aircraft is used on before doing AKL-DPS (the departure time suggest a short haul flight like SYD-AKL), and which flight the aircraft will be used for upon return to AKL (AKL-KIX?). Parking the aircraft at DPS maybe cheaper than at AKL.

macilree · Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 3):
I believe that there is some sort of maintenance work going on (or planned ) at DPS, isn't there?

Correct.

nascarnut · Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:46 am

Pacific Blue 737-800 ZK-PBJ is now in Auckland painted in Virgin Australia colours and titles. This is the second NZ registered Virgin aircraft painted in the new Virgin Australia colours. The first was ZK-PBF "Virgin Samoa".

Motorhussy · Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:48 am

So NZ replaced its A320 service this morning between AKL-NAN. Wonder how full it was coming back with a reported 2,000 Australian and New Zealand holidaymakers stranded in the flood ravaged nation? Presumably full. Would have been a nice upgrade opportunity.

NZ107 · Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:51 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 11):
So NZ replaced its A320 service this morning between AKL-NAN. Wonder how full it was coming back with a reported 2,000 Australian and New Zealand holidaymakers stranded in the flood ravaged nation? Presumably full. Would have been a nice upgrade opportunity.

Did that yesterday too and probably tomorrow as well I suppose..

Motorhussy · Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:04 am

Meant to say 'with a 77W'.

777ER · Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:49 pm

A B744 was also used a few days ago on the NAN sector

cchan · Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:15 am

The Pacific Islands thread is gone (again), so this seems to be the next best place to ask this question: any idea where those 2 "new" Bandeirantes for Air Rarotonga come from?

http://www.cinews.co.ck/2012/February/Wed29/other.htm#1202231007

ZKOJH · Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:50 am

With TN joining ''Oneworld'' ! will this have an effect with NZ code-share on the AKL-PPT-LAX route?

kiwiandrew · Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:58 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 16):
With TN joining ''Oneworld'' ! will this have an effect with NZ code-share on the AKL-PPT-LAX route?

I think you are jumping the gun a bit . Unless I have missed something there was a news story, since retracted, which said that TN had selected OW as the alliance they would like to join. I have heard no confirmation that OW has accepted them.

aerorobnz · Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:06 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 16):
With TN joining ''Oneworld'' ! will this have an effect with NZ code-share on the AKL-PPT-LAX route?

Probably not. They still have an existing agreement, as they do for EY/VS which are not Star Alliance members either.

Of course pinning your all hopes on AA as your North American partner right now is risky - especially as TN is also in financial strife too.

aeroflop · Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:23 am

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 10):
Pacific Blue 737-800 ZK-PBJ is now in Auckland painted in Virgin Australia colours and titles. This is the second NZ registered Virgin aircraft painted in the new Virgin Australia colours. The first was ZK-PBF "Virgin Samoa".

Are the crew etc going to be paid Virgin Australia rates now that the whole company is "unifying'?
Or is it going to be the same deal like with Qantas and Jetconnect?

Mind you if the crew were paid aussie wages it would be VERY attractive to be working in NZ.

PA515 · Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:30 am

One January in the early 1960's I flew CHC-AKL nonstop in an NAC F27. I was seated in the second or third row from the front on the right hand side and about two thirds of the way up the forward bulkhead was the word 'Godwit'.

Was this a reference to the NAC logo of a 'Godwit', or a reference to ZK-BXA 'Kuaka' (Godwit) ?

The airliners.net photo database has a photo of ZK-BXA at Whenuapai in the early 1960's, but I haven't found any interior shots of NAC F27's.

Thanks.

PA515

sunrisevalley · Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 4):
The Black 77W scheduled to drop into WLG on its way to do flypast at Wanaka on Sunday 8th.
NZ6693 AKL-WLG 0945-1045
NZ6694 WLG-AKL 1115-1400 via Wanaka

Can we expect some video links to be posted later on Sunday?

qslinger · Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:23 am

All Blacks 777 in WLG.

Spotters in WLG: Where will be plane be parked for that 1/2 hour it in WLG? Can you recommend a good spotting place? I plan on being by the Warehouse viewing area! Can't wait for this beauty to land in WLG!!!

777ER · Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:11 am

Quoting qslinger (Reply 22):

I suspect it will be parked outside the international gates as they won't be in use between 10.45-11.15am. Only good spot is beside the AVSEC building (attached to Airport Fire). Obviously the small viewing area beside the Westpac Rescue hanger, viewing area above the northern runway end and the southern end are the only good spots.

NZ107 · Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:41 am

Does anyone know anything about QF50 (I presume - it departed again as that)/ZK-ZQF returning to AKL this morning? Just checked Flightradar and saw a departure out of AKL with a whole fuel reducing holding pattern off the west coast.. And now it's taking a far more northerly route to SYD, as if it was heading for BNE. Strange!

aerorobnz · Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:18 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 24):
Does anyone know anything about QF50

Don't remember the reason off hand, but a northerly routing may indicate a non-etops compliant aircraft. To get to Australia they would have to stay close to LDH - which is well north of SYD.

ZK-NBT · Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:39 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 25):
Don't remember the reason off hand, but a northerly routing may indicate a non-etops compliant aircraft. To get to Australia they would have to stay close to LDH - which is well north of SYD.

ZK-ZQF so unlikely that reason.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 24):
Does anyone know anything about QF50 (I presume - it departed again as that)/ZK-ZQF returning to AKL this morning?

aerorobnz · Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 26):
ZK-ZQF so unlikely that reason.

Why not?? What has ZK-ZQF got that means it is immune to adhering to engineering ETOPS standards??
The same would apply for JQ/NZ A320s from time to time if the defect meant that the ETOPS standards couldn't be met for the flight. An ETOPS rated aircraft can only fly with reduced ETOPS rating if it still meets the lower ETOPS standard, otherwise it means that effectively Non-Etops operations require it to keep very close to LDH. Effectively only SYD/OOL/BNE can be operated in this way.

NZ6 · Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 2):
Seems odd. Now a longer turn around in DPS and a midnight arrival. Why now

Quoting cchan (Reply 5):
The arrival time is not attractive at all for most tourists. I suspect this maybe an aircraft utilisation issue.

It's got nothing to do with NZ. DPS runway is closed due resurfacing overnight. NZ has been forced to re-time it's flights as a result.

Gemuser · Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:25 am

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 26):
Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 25):
Don't remember the reason off hand, but a northerly routing may indicate a non-etops compliant aircraft. To get to Australia they would have to stay close to LDH - which is well north of SYD.

ZK-ZQF so unlikely that reason.

I agree ZK-NBT very unlikely because AFAIK LDH cannot take B737 so useless for ETOP flight planning.

Gemuser

Unclekoru · Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:11 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 27):
Why not?? What has ZK-ZQF got that means it is immune to adhering to engineering ETOPS standards??
The same would apply for JQ/NZ A320s from time to time if the defect meant that the ETOPS standards couldn't be met for the flight. An ETOPS rated aircraft can only fly with reduced ETOPS rating if it still meets the lower ETOPS standard, otherwise it means that effectively Non-Etops operations require it to keep very close to LDH. Effectively only SYD/OOL/BNE can be operated in this way.

Correct, except it's Norfolk not Lord Howe Island that's used as the diversion airfield for flight planning purposes.

alangirvan · Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:19 am

I wonder if anyone read an article in AirInsight today? It was about winglets or sharklets, and the person was saying that the advantages of these devices are very much exaggerated. He was saying they only achieve good fuel savings when the plane is flying at a very high altitude, on quite long segments. In fact, he says, when the plane is climbing, that has to be done very carefully so that the plane does not burn more fuel than a non-winglet plane.

So, in AirNZ future operations, what will the sharklets do? Are three hour Tasman sectors long enough to show a benefit? Will there be better field performance at (eg) Wellington and Queenstown? There would be a benefit for longer segments like Auckland to Adelaide and Auckland to Cairns? Or are sharklets just there to look cool?

ZKOJH · Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:30 am

Someone better tell ANZ that they won't join Star and this might put the breaks on them investing anymore money to try and get a grab at the OZ market.

Virgin Oz spruces up for NZ push

Virgin Australia has launched a fresh push into New Zealand to capture a bigger share of the corporate market with new livery, refurbished cabins and new services for what was its Pacific Blue fleet.

The airline, which is part owned by Air New Zealand - 19.99 % and SQ , has started flying the first of its Virgin Australia-branded aircraft on its transtasman and Pacific routes. It hopes to have all its 10 Boeing 737-800s painted in the new livery by the beginning of next year as part of a bid to capture more of the premium market.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/airlines/n...cle.cfm?c_id=113&objectid=10797972

Motorhussy · Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:42 am

Think QF's probably more the target of DJ's rennaisance push back into the New Zealand market. Previously they'd been after the exclusively price sensitive vacationers only.

sunrisevalley · Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:05 am

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 31):
the person was saying that the advantages of these devices are very much exaggerated. He was saying they only achieve good fuel savings when the plane is flying at a very high altitude, on quite long segments. In fact, he says, when the plane is climbing, that has to be done very carefully so that the plane does not burn more fuel than a non-winglet plane.

Below is the link to the winglet used on Boeing aircraft. The diagrams for block fuel and load/range improvement are shown. It would seem that the savings on typical routes between city pairs in NZL are probably not worth the weight penalty. Would be interesting to get the input of a 767-300ER pilot on the matter of climb.

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/products.php

IndianicWorld · Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:58 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 32):
The airline, which is part owned by Air New Zealand - 19.99 % and SQ , has started flying the first of its Virgin Australia-branded aircraft on its transtasman and Pacific routes. It hopes to have all its 10 Boeing 737-800s painted in the new livery by the beginning of next year as part of a bid to capture more of the premium market.

ummmm... since when does SQ own any of DJ?

Kiwirob · Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:10 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 34):
Below is the link to the winglet used on Boeing aircraft. The diagrams for block fuel and load/range improvement are shown. It would seem that the savings on typical routes between city pairs in NZL are probably not worth the weight penalty.

Interesting because Norwegian fly 737's with winglets all over Norway, some of the sectors are as short as 25 minutes, none much over 1.5 hours.

sunrisevalley · Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
Interesting because Norwegian fly 737's with winglets all over Norway, some of the sectors are as short as 25 minutes, none much over 1.5 hours.

I am correct in my understanding that NZ did not order sharklets on the new domestic A320's ?

Kiwirob · Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 37):
I am correct in my understanding that NZ did not order sharklets on the new domestic A320's ?

I think that's correct, the international one's have the sharklets.

texan · Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:02 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 24):
Does anyone know anything about QF50 (I presume - it departed again as that)/ZK-ZQF returning to AKL this morning? Just checked Flightradar and saw a departure out of AKL with a whole fuel reducing holding pattern off the west coast.. And now it's taking a far more northerly route to SYD, as if it was heading for BNE. Strange!

I watched it take off at AKL. Landing gear didn't retract. Returned to AKL after circling.

Texan

Edit: Something else could have happened, but that was the problem visible from the ground.

[Edited 2012-04-11 14:08:43]

NZ107 · Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting texan (Reply 39):

I watched it take off at AKL. Landing gear didn't retract. Returned to AKL after circling.

Great, thanks a lot. I wonder if that hampered its ETOPS ability then or if it flew near NLK for safety reasons.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 37):
I am correct in my understanding that NZ did not order sharklets on the new domestic A320's ?

The new domestic A320s have already been delivered AFAIK. And the sharkletted A320 is still in testing, right?

Asiaflyer · Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:26 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 40):
And the sharkletted A320 is still in testing, right?

First sharkletted production A320 has been seen in Toulouse, as MSN 5098, which should mean that flight testing must be close to completed.
Not sure which carrier it is intended for though.

joelyboy911 · Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:20 pm

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 41):
Not sure which carrier it is intended for though.

I had bee under the impression that NZ was the launch customer for the A320 Sharklet. Is that the case? I can't remember where I read that...

cchan · Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:59 pm

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 42):
I had bee under the impression that NZ was the launch customer for the A320 Sharklet. Is that the case? I can't remember where I read that...

Yes, NZ was the first airline to order the sharklet version.

aotearoa · Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:19 pm

The first 4 A320s for the domestic network have already been delivered. These are non sharklet aircraft which are leased by the airline.

The first A320 with sharklets is due in June 2013. At this point in time, these aircraft will be owned by the airline and registered with an OXA, OXB.....series. These will operate on the domestic network. There would be a fuel benefit by operating these a/c on the longer cruise segments of regional flights, however this fuel advantage needs to be balanced with the very substantial cost of renovating the current regional aircraft to the new domestic product. I heard that this calculation ensures the a/ c will be domestic bound.

There will be additional benefits in takeoff weight at performance limited runways like Queenstown.

NZ107 · Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting aotearoa (Reply 44):
These will operate on the domestic network.

I was under the impression that the sharkletted ones were going to operate the international legs, with one current international A320 heading to domestic use, replacing a 733 for every new sharkletted A320 arrival..

aotearoa · Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:57 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 45):

As I understand it, this is definitely not the case. The regional A320 fleet leases must start to expire mid decade, so I'm guessing NEO options would be looked at.

kiwiandrew · Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 45):
I was under the impression that the sharkletted ones were going to operate the international legs, with one current international A320 heading to domestic use, replacing a 733 for every new sharkletted A320 arrival..

That was what I had heard as well, on the other hand, I can't remember the source where I heard it from. Sharklets wouldn't really make sense for domestic stage lengths, would they?

cchan · Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:11 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 47):
That was what I had heard as well

Same here. I suppose we will see "international" 320 on domestic routes from time to time anyway.

nascarnut · Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 47):
I was under the impression that the sharkletted ones were going to operate the international legs, with one current international A320 heading to domestic use, replacing a 733 for every new sharkletted A320 arrival..

That was what I had heard as well, on the other hand, I can't remember the source where I heard it from. Sharklets wouldn't really make sense for domestic stage lengths, would they?

Problem could be with the Cabin Crew. The cabins Electronics etc are totally different on the new Domestic A320D vs the regional A320. Currently the Domestic Cabin crew cannot fly the early A320 while the International Cabin crew cannot fly the new A320D. Causes som eissues when a regional A320 is substituted for an A320D.

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