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Qatara340
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EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:05 am

According to the Emirates Source, an EK A388 operating DXB-TORONTO without the crew rests (high density) had to divert to MAN to change crews, since there were no passenger seats for crew to rest on on the flight.

Is that an EK policy? Or over-pampering of Cabin Crew Conditions? Yes, I know cabin crew are people as well; the point is; can they just rest in the flip-seats or take turns sitting in the flip-seats to warrant an expensive diversion? Plus, where would they get new crew in MAN?

Thanks.

Source: http://www.theeksource.com/
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rutankrd
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:36 am

Quoting QatarA340 (Thread starter):

According to the Emirates Source, an EK A388 operating DXB-TORONTO without the crew rests (high density) had to divert to MAN to change crews, since there were no passenger seats for crew to rest on on the flight.

Is that an EK policy? Or over-pampering of Cabin Crew Conditions? Yes, I know cabin crew are people as well; the point is; can they just rest in the flip-seats or take turns sitting in the flip-seats to warrant an expensive diversion? Plus, where would they get new crew in MAN?

Thanks.

Source: http://www.theeksource.com/

Manchester is a dedicated divert/re-route point for Emirates transatlantic routes.

Has its OWN daily A388 service plus a daily 77w service and an A332 service each day as well.

Crewing can can be swapped with the MAN- DXB rostering with ease, for any A388/77W TALC service.

Yesterdays DXB-YYZ operation was pre-loaded with the Manchester stop and utilised A6-EDR without crew rest .
It returned again via Manchester today .
 
Curiousflyer
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:36 am

I know no airline that lets its crew work non-stop without a rest on flights that long. It would not be safe and is usually mandated by regulations. I thought 380s would come with crew bunks.
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:44 am

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 2):
I thought 380s would come with crew bunks.

EK has two A380 configurations, one for the long flights with crew rest and one for shorter hops to Europe and probably in the future India where Y seats are installed instead of the crew rest. Maybe one too many of the long haul birds was in MX or crack checking such that they had to use a non-crew-rest bird for the YYZ route, resulting in the diversion to MAN.
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
migair54
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:45 am

Problem is that you have to respect your own regulations and Aviation Authourities regulations, it´s not a matter of pampering...

Crew rest is a very serious issue. And no airline or crew should ever pass the limits. like many other things in aviations, crew rest has been set after different issues, some of them crashes....

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 1):
Yesterdays DXB-YYZ operation was pre-loaded with the Manchester stop and utilised A6-EDR without crew rest .
It returned again via Manchester today .

Thank you for the explanation.

Maybe the plane schedule for the flight had a tech the day before or two days before and EK has to use a standby plane, and it seems that one had the other config that is for short-medium hauls only...

So we can change the title of the topic, it was not a diversion it was a re-schedule...
 
rutankrd
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:47 am

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 2):

I know no airline that lets its crew work non-stop without a rest on flights that long. It would not be safe and is usually mandated by regulations. I thought 380s would come with crew bunks.

Emirates has received several high density 517 seat aircraft they employ in the main on DXB- EU services that do not need the rest room.

Due to the wing spur issues these are on occasion being rostered over longer sectors . In this case the Toronto route and therefore requires the Pitt stop. Manchester is ideally located for this and is an A388 station anyway.
 
Tradewinds
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:33 am

Personally I'd much rather suffer the inconvenience of diverting than have sleep-deprived crew flying my plane.
Tradewinds
 
planesarecool
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Thread starter):
Is that an EK policy? Or over-pampering of Cabin Crew Conditions? Yes, I know cabin crew are people as well; the point is; can they just rest in the flip-seats or take turns sitting in the flip-seats to warrant an expensive diversion?

The crew rest isn't just used by cabin crew, but by the flight deck crew as well. On ULH flights like this, EK carry two sets of flight crew. Typically one set will take off, rest and then land, while the second crew will fly the aircraft in cruise. So yes, it is necessary to have a crew rest area on these flights.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:10 pm

As has been posted, crew rest requirements are dictated by the laws that govern the airline by the local civil aviation authority of where the airline is based. Flights over a certain number of hours require additional crew. There will also be rest requirements which require rest seats for flights over a certain time. For even longer flights, a full bunk bed may be required with rules dictating what kind of bunk is available and whether or not even a business class/first class seat can qualify as a crew rest seat. In some cases they do not, and a full crew bunk must be available.
 
Auchmithie
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 1):
Yesterdays DXB-YYZ operation was pre-loaded with the Manchester stop and utilised A6-EDR without crew rest .
It returned again via Manchester today .

As confirmed at http://www.theeksource.com the return flight EK242 operated direct YYZ-DXB. Although it did route directly overhead Manchester at 35,000 ft.
 
airxliban
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:32 pm

I'm not sure what flight time limitations rules that EK uses, but under CAP371 (UK - and commonly used in other parts of the world) the crew would need either proper seats or a crew bunk.

Let's say DXB-YYZ is 14 hours and crew can only be on duty for say 12 hours. With 1 hour pre flight duty, the YYZ trip would be 15 hours on duty. The crew HAS to have rest on board the aircraft in order to operate safely.

If the Crew rests in a seat (not a crew seat next to the door) they can recover 1/3 of their FDP (i.e. if they rest for 6 hours, they extend their duty limit by 2 hours). If they are in a crew bunk, they can recover 1/2 the time (i.e. 3 hours for a 6 hour rest).

Hope that makes sense - if I muddled the rules someone please let me know!
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qf002
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting Auchmithie (Reply 9):
As confirmed at http://www.theeksource.com the return flight EK242 operated direct YYZ-DXB. Although it did route directly overhead Manchester at 35,000 ft.

Most likely there were seats in F/J for the crew to use on the return flight...
 
AT
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:03 pm

If I am not mistaken, all flights to and from the US use two full sets of cockpit crews.
Where do the non-flying crew sit while they are not on duty ?

I thought there was a cockpit crew rest on all the A380s regardless of whether the aircraft had or did not have the rear crew rest.
 
something
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Thread starter):
Or over-pampering of Cabin Crew Conditions?

If you think EK ''over-pampers'' their crew, you should talk to some of their employees how the airline handles rest times and sick leaves. You're basically a number in the system that has to function like a robot. It took the MEL incident and other incidents for slight changes being made (ie, ULH layovers went to 48hrs. from originally 24hrs.)

As far as I'm informed, cabin crew isn't even allowed to wear glasses. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure.

So much for EK ''over-pampering'' their staff.
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qf002
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting at (Reply 12):
If I am not mistaken, all flights to and from the US use two full sets of cockpit crews.
Where do the non-flying crew sit while they are not on duty ?

I thought there was a cockpit crew rest on all the A380s regardless of whether the aircraft had or did not have the rear crew rest.

There is a cockpit crew rest located directly behind the cockpit (ie off that little corridor/stairs up to the cockpit that are located at the front of the lower deck), I'm not sure EK has configured that as a sleeping area though.
 
Rara
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:08 pm

In the 1980s LH developed a habit to let their long-haul crews become illegal by some minutes on a regular basis.

That ended when a captain diverted a FRA-bound transatlantic flight to BRU.   That was the end of that.
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 2):
I know no airline that lets its crew work non-stop without a rest on flights that long. It would not be safe and is usually mandated by regulations. I thought 380s would come with crew bunks.

What about a UK or Scandinavia - Canary Islands flight/return then? 10 hours nonstop for the same crew + ground time at the Canaries where there are duties to take care of as well...
 
adityashankar
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:12 pm

WOW Good job EK!!

Its always safety first!!
Remember what happened when pilots are tired, as in the case of many aviation disasters (as seen on Air crash investigations), I rather stop at various airports, than have tired crew who could endanger the lives of everyone on board.

I hope other airlines adopt this policy...no matter the aircraft, if the pilots are working over their specified working hours, divert and change crew!!!
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EXCOASA1982
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:34 pm

Couldn't they have just blocked some seats in Y or J instead of making the stop? Forgive me if I am thinking to simply about this, but it sounds a lot cheaper than planning a stop. They would just have had to got volunteers if the blocked seats oversold the flight.
 
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:26 pm

My guess is that they re-crewed it both ways (but poss position a crew in MAN out of DXB) for the East bound return. Aside from the legal issues regarding required rest on ULH flights, there is the very real issue of "resting" in a jumpseat. I know my EU and US qualifications have a prohibition of sleeping on the jumpseat. So comfort, rules etc aside, it's not allowed to "rest" in the jump seat. I'd be shocked if safety rules for EK allow that.
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tonystan
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:05 pm

It is a regulatory requirement on such long range routes that crew get a specific amount of "Horizontal" rest!

I know at my airline if for whatever reason a crew rest facility was unavailable they would probably just block an adequate number of flatbed rev seats (at the cost of full fare passengers) for the crew however I can see why Emirates did what they did.

And no, its certainly NOTHING to do with "pampering"!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
qf002
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting EXCOASA1982 (Reply 18):
Couldn't they have just blocked some seats in Y or J instead of making the stop? Forgive me if I am thinking to simply about this, but it sounds a lot cheaper than planning a stop. They would just have had to got volunteers if the blocked seats oversold the flight.

They need a flat sleeping surface, and the flight was reportedly full in F/J on the outbound. Not many F/J pax are going to be happy giving up their seats on a flight that isn't daily.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 19):
My guess is that they re-crewed it both ways (but poss position a crew in MAN out of DXB) for the East bound return.

The east bound flight was flown nonstop.
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting adityashankar (Reply 17):
I hope other airlines adopt this policy

They already have. Required crew rest periods vary, but are universally enforced AFAIK.
 
gen2stew
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:56 pm

Really? QatarA340, have you ever sat on a "flip seat"?If the EK jumpseat is anything like mine it is in a bright, noisy location, usually close to the lavs and is at a 90 degree angle, 12 inches wide with maybe an inch of padding for you bum. If that is pampering to you, then please let me sell you a true luxury car : a Pinto.
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par13del
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:09 pm

Well the first questions that came to mind was:

1. Is a non-crew rest a/c the only a/c they had available
2. Pax load so high that a 777 could not be used
3. Route to Canada does pass close to MAN that the extra cost for landing, fuel etc. is cheaper than leaving a few pax behind and rebooking for a later flight, even accomodating overnight.
 
airxliban
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting adityashankar (Reply 17):
I hope other airlines adopt this policy...no matter the aircraft, if the pilots are working over their specified working hours, divert and change crew!!!

Every airline is bound by flight time limitations. The rules usually depend on the country and the aircraft's country of registration and the applicable rules.
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migair54
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 24):
Well the first questions that came to mind was:

1. Is a non-crew rest a/c the only a/c they had available
2. Pax load so high that a 777 could not be used
3. Route to Canada does pass close to MAN that the extra cost for landing, fuel etc. is cheaper than leaving a few pax behind and rebooking for a later flight, even accomodating overnight.

1- it must be, otherwise why sending that Acft???

2- it´s been told that flight was full on Business and first. So no B77W can do it.

3- It´s not a matter of money only, it´s a matter of pax comfort and company image. Toronto flight is only 3 times a week so that means leaving high Yield pax in DXB for maybe 2 or 3 days, or paying them a ticket on other airline... so 2 very bad things to do.

EK decision was the best one, re-schedule (not divert) the flight and carry all the paxs with only one stop instead of direct.

I guess the return flight was direct because available seat in F/J, so EK block that seat for crew rest. it shouldn´t be a problem for the regulations, that seat should be OK according to the regulations.
 
qf002
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 26):
1- it must be, otherwise why sending that Acft???

And I bet that if there is a shortage of A380's with the crew rest, YYZ is the first to get changed because the disruption is far more easily managed than a flight to, say, SYD. A flight to SYD without the crew rest would have to route via Asia, and that's a big detour. As has been noted, MAN is directly en route to YYZ, and is set up to deal with these issues.
 
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par13del
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:50 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 26):
1- it must be, otherwise why sending that Acft???

Well I guess it could add to the rumour that EK does not pay much for fuel?

Quoting migair54 (Reply 26):
I guess the return flight was direct because available seat in F/J, so EK block that seat for crew rest.

I would love to know all the additional charges involved and the cost of those seats which went empty on the return flight, deliberately scheduling an A380 stop for something other than fuel restraints is not usual.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 26):
3- It´s not a matter of money only, it´s a matter of pax comfort and company image.

Does fly in the face of the range built into the a/c in addition to the showers, bars etc. since the claim of the a/c is non-stop versus stop.

All in all an unusal event which we may never know the full financial behind it.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:44 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 4):

Problem is that you have to respect your own regulations and Aviation Authourities regulations, it´s not a matter of pampering...

Exactly. Please change the title mods.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 5):
Due to the wing spur issues these are on occasion being rostered over longer sectors . In this case the Toronto route and therefore requires the Pitt stop. Manchester is ideally located for this and is an A388 station anyway.

That makes sense. How many EK A380s are in for modification?

Quoting Airxliban (Reply 10):
If the Crew rests in a seat (not a crew seat next to the door) they can recover 1/3 of their FDP (i.e. if they rest for 6 hours, they extend their duty limit by 2 hours). If they are in a crew bunk, they can recover 1/2 the time (i.e. 3 hours for a 6 hour rest).

Interesting. Do you have a link to the regulation you posted? Well... better yet, a nice summary as you just provided.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 19):
I know my EU and US qualifications have a prohibition of sleeping on the jumpseat. So comfort, rules etc aside, it's not allowed to "rest" in the jump seat. I'd be shocked if safety rules for EK allow that.

EK is notorious for not allowing crew to sleep in sight of passengers.

I would speculate F went back empty of passengers and with a well rested crew.   

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LXa332
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:51 am

Quoting Tradewinds (Reply 6):
Personally I'd much rather suffer the inconvenience of diverting than have sleep-deprived crew flying my plane.

     
Images of Korean Air 801 come to mind.
 
thrufru
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:59 am

The only thing I have to say about this, as everyone else seems to have covered the regulatory side is about the use of the word "diverted". A diversion is an unscheduled change to routing and destination. It seems more like this was a re-routing due to crew legalities. It appears the Emirates was prepared well in advance as they had a crew in position in MAN.
 
Quokkas
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:12 am

Quoting something (Reply 13):
As far as I'm informed, cabin crew isn't even allowed to wear glasses.

Your informant would appear to be wrong. On one of my returns from HAM I was attended to by a young man wearing classes. That was in the J cabin.

Quoting par13del (Reply 28):
Well I guess it could add to the rumour that EK does not pay much for fuel?

How? I suppose that those who wish to fly in the face of reality will grasp at anything.

Quoting par13del (Reply 28):
deliberately scheduling an A380 stop for something other than fuel restraints is not usual.

But EK is not usual. 

A constant complaint from Tim Clarke is that he can't get aircraft quick enough. This has meant delaying retirement of older aircraft and there is an increasing number of technical delays, as is indicated by reporting on the page listed by the OP. So, in addition to the inconvenience of having to take aircraft out of service to conduct tests for cracks, available aircraft for substitution become more limited.

The A380 is normally scheduled on the run to YYZ because the route is popular but limited to 3x weekly. The alternative would have been to simply not take bookings for the period. Substituting a 77W (i.e one with suites if one could be found) would have meant carrying 8F/42J instead of 14F/76J, not to mention 310Y instead of 399Y (or 427Y on aircraft without crew rest area) on an A380. Any passengers who could not be boarded would either have to be rerouted on another airline or accommodated for a minimum two nights in DXB, assuming seats were available on the next flight.
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airxliban
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 29):
Quoting Airxliban (Reply 10):
If the Crew rests in a seat (not a crew seat next to the door) they can recover 1/3 of their FDP (i.e. if they rest for 6 hours, they extend their duty limit by 2 hours). If they are in a crew bunk, they can recover 1/2 the time (i.e. 3 hours for a 6 hour rest).

Interesting. Do you have a link to the regulation you posted? Well... better yet, a nice summary as you just provided.

Here is CAP371 (CAP371 is the set of flight time limitations used in the UK):

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF

I know that many other countries use CAP371 as well, it is acknowledged in many circles to be one of the best sets of regulation in terms of managing air crew fatigue. I am pretty sure the GCAA CARs in the UAE are a carbon copy of CAP371, so that is what Emirates would be using. I am sure however that EK's OM Part A includes some further rules for long haul flights.

Anyway, go to page 11 under section 15.3, you'll see two parallel paragraphs (bunk and seat) that should more or less be what I said above.

I have done a lot of work in crew planning, crew scheduling, crew control and network operations for a few airlines before. If you need a run down of CAP 371 or a summary of a few of the basic rules just PM me!
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AT
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 21):
They need a flat sleeping surface, and the flight was reportedly full in F/J on the outbound. Not many F/J pax are going to be happy giving up their seats on a flight that isn't daily.

S

[Edited 2012-04-03 19:34:46]
 
qf002
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:41 am

Quoting at (Reply 34):
So it's fine to cram passengers in seats with barely any recline (not to mention 10 abreast) but crew need a flat sleeping surface to rest? I understand that the cockpit crew in particular needs to be completely rested and alert, but I'm sure if the pilots and flight attendants had to endure 10 hours plus in an Economy seat, they would be reading the riot act to tim Clarke.

You do realise that flight attendants and pilots fly in Y all the time, don't you? Except for the most senior staff, all company travel is in Y, including their free flight home each year and any other travel they chose to access.

I'm not sure you appreciate how demanding working as a FA is. I'm not a flight attendant, but I have two close friends who are, and it is absolutely reasonable to expect proper resting facilities. It's basic OHS -- if I had to work at a desk for 14 hours nonstop then I would expect a comfortable chair to sit in.

The lives of 500+ people depends on these few individuals being able to properly open an emergency exit in an accident. You might think that the two people flying the plane have the greatest responsibility for the lives/safety of all those on board, but the burden falls on every single staff member doing their job right.
 
ojas
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:42 am

Also do remember a lot of EK A380s are going through repairs for the wingcracks, which is why it is an extremely difficult task to schedule the limited A380s in the fleet to places with high demand. The decision EK took was a wise one.
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smi0006
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:57 am

On a side note the 77ws flying between Australia and Asia also have bunk style crew rest facilities. However as they are not legally required on these shorter hops, the crew are forbidden from using them! They must just rest in th galley, no passenger style crew rest seats even no seats are blocked! This is strongly up held by pursers due to the companies desire to maintain cabin presence.
 
Quokkas
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:24 am

Quoting Airxliban (Reply 33):
I am pretty sure the GCAA CARs in the UAE are a carbon copy of CAP371

UAE laws are indeed based on a review of (a) CAR Part IV, Subpart Q.
(b) FAA Advisory Circular AC 121-31 on Flight Crew Sleeping Quarters and Rest Facilities
(c) Flight Safety Digest on Crew Alertness in Ultra Long Range operations (August/September 2005)
(d) FAA study on Fatigue & Performance in Aviation by Thomas E. Nesthus, PH. D. (Civil Aerospace Medical Institute & Aerospace Human Factors, Research Division, Oklahoma City, OK, June 2009)
(e) Fatigue Risk Management Systems produced by numerous transportation authorities (e.g.: Australia/New Zealand Standard 4360:1999)
(f) Safety Recommendation document prepared by The Honorable Robert A. Sturgell, Acting Administrator, FAA, by the National Transportation Safety Board Washington, D.C. 20594, June 2008)

The resulting UAE GCAA CAAP 14 - ULR Operations covers the requirements for operators of ULR flights. This covers rostering of both flight and cabin crew (including minimum number by aircraft type), minimum rest periods before ULR flights, rest in flight and the provision of crew rest areas.

Quote:
7.1 Crew Rest Facilities
These rest facilities comprise not less than two independent rest areas with horizontal bunks and shall provide an environment that is conducive to rest/sleep. Each rest area shall be equipped with a sleeping surface (bunk or equivalent), adequate lighting, air conditioning, independent temperature controls and have noise levels which afford rest and are less than 75 dBA. Humidity enhancement shall be provided,
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
EK773
Posts: 182
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:32 am

The fact that the threat creater displays a GCC flag and considers this as pampering, gives you an idea of the mentality of basic human rights in the GCC region.
 
slinky09
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:57 am

Wouldn't it be cheaper for EK to dedicate two business class seats for crew rest - AA does this I recall on some routes (in their case first class seats)?
 
aeroflop
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:14 am

Quoting EK773 (Reply 39):
The fact that the threat creater displays a GCC flag and considers this as pampering, gives you an idea of the mentality of basic human rights in the GCC region.

   Indeed.
 
etihadairways
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:26 am

EK A380s up to now has only 2 config the only deference is that the one without crew rest has more eco seats that replace the crew rest compartment.

The premium First and business class on the upper deck remain the same on all EK A380

As for pampering don’t think that’s the case its standard operation because the jump in seats are for safety take off and landing in case of emergency then the crew can deploy the slide rafts .. ect
Those seats were not made for crew rest

Thanks QatarA340 for your post
 
Quokkas
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:26 am

Quoting EK773 (Reply 39):
gives you an idea of the mentality
Quoting aeroflop (Reply 41):
Indeed.

So why is there a CAAP14 and why did EK schedule a break at MAN?

The attitude of the OP may or may not be indicative of the mentality of the GCC region. The fact that EK did schedule a break is perhaps more revealing.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
EK773
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:57 am

QatarA340 has referred to theeksource.com as a reference, however the information on this site is incorrect and there was no change of cabin crew in MAN.
 
sq_ek_freak
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:16 pm

Quoting something (Reply 13):
As far as I'm informed, cabin crew isn't even allowed to wear glasses.

That's simply untrue.
Keep Discovering
 
smi0006
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 40):

Wouldn't it be cheaper for EK to dedicate two business class seats for crew rest - AA does this I recall on some routes (in their case first class seats)?

How many crew are there on a EK A380 in a high density config? 22? 2 seat may not be enough. On a side note where do the shower and toilet cleaners rest? Do they also have access to the crew rest?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:16 am

Quoting Airxliban (Reply 33):
Here is CAP371 (CAP371 is the set of flight time limitations used in the UK):

Thank you. It was an interesting read. A little more conservative than the US guidelines (which I wouldn't mind a link for as I haven't read them in full).

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 38):
Quote:
7.1 Crew Rest Facilities
These rest facilities comprise not less than two independent rest areas with horizontal bunks and shall provide an environment that is conducive to rest/sleep. Each rest area shall be equipped with a sleeping surface (bunk or equivalent), adequate lighting, air conditioning, independent temperature controls and have noise levels which afford rest and are less than 75 dBA. Humidity enhancement shall be provided,

EK is... scrutinized. So it sounds like they have adopted a sane policy.


I suspect we'll see more of this as EK has now learned how to operate with a 'mixed reserve' fleet on their 380 routes...

Lightsaber
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Quokkas
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:35 am

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 46):
How many crew are there on a EK A380 in a high density config?

The legal minimum in accordance with CAAP14:

7.4.1 Flight Crew compliment and composition
(a) Each ULR flight is to be operated by no less than four (4) pilots of whom two (2) must be pilot-in-command qualified.
(b) The duty flight crew shall comprise at least two pilots of which one crewmember is pilot-in-command qualified.

7.4.2 Cabin Crew Complement and Composition
Each ULR flight is to be operated by the following Cabin Crew complement which will be in accordance with following table:
AIRCRAFT TYPECREW COMPOSITION
A38024
A34014
B777/20014
B777/30016

The required crew complement shall include at least two Crew-In-Charges for each ULR sector with at least one Crew-In-Charge on duty at all times.
Note: A Crew-In-Charge is defined as a cabin crew member who has completed the Senior Cabin Crew member training requirements as specified in the Cabin crew Training Manual and the CAR-Ops Subpart O.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
lukeyboy95
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RE: EK A388 Divert Because Of No Crew Rests:Pampering?

Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:55 pm

quick question;

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 5):
Due to the wing spur issues these are on occasion being rostered over longer sectors .
Quoting EXCOASA1982 (Reply 18):
but it sounds a lot cheaper than planning a stop.


As the routing was a cause of the wing-crack repair, can we then assume that Airbus will be taking up the cost for the stop at MAN? In the same way that EK are compensating passengers for A380 substitutions? ...Which Airbus are likely compensating for too..

The mind boggles with the associated costs of this. Anybody put a ballpoint figure on it? Crew fees, accommodation, fuel for t/o etc. However, nice to hear EK are filling an A380 out that way, even with the 28 extra seats afforded by the configuration.
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