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Burkhard
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FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:28 am

Just read on ZDF.de that the curfew will remain. A black day for German economy, for Lufthansa and the Rhein Main area.
 
Burkhard
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:35 am

Not yet much out:

Fair usage from ZDF.de:

"Nach jahrelangem Streit um den Ausbau des größten deutschen Flughafens in Frankfurt hat das Bundesverwaltungsgericht einen vorläufigen Schlusspunkt gesetzt. Die Leipziger Richter verkündeten in ihrem Urteil, dass die 17 vom Land Hessen genehmigten Flüge zwischen 23 Uhr und 5 Uhr nicht erlaubt seien, erklärte der Vorsitzende Richter Rüdiger Rubel."

The 17 night flights between 23:00 and 5:00 are not allowed.
 
something
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:43 am

Backed by CDU and FDP. Unbelievable.

Now it would only be logical for these people to lock their dogs in the basement, and leave their cars parked in the garage in the same time frame. And an 11pm curfew, street lights off and sidewalks up goes without saying as well.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
BrouAviation
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:03 am

Quoting something (Reply 2):

Backed by CDU and FDP. Unbelievable.

Unbelievable? Check your signature  .
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:04 am

Let's wait for the details, but one can say already that politics have screwed this one up good. The Merkel government should have revised $ 29 of the Luftverkehrsgesetz (Aviation law) straight after the election, making essential night operations possible. Had the government done that, the court could not have said anything else except confirming the night ops.

The former MP of Hesse, Roland Koch, said in a statement in 2001, that there should be no "planned" night flights between 11 pm and 5 am, now, planned, means that delays can be worked off, as this is customs world wide. The ban now exceeds that.

Still, Koch revised that statement before another stae election with the 17 flights and won the election. The people gave a clear mandate, which the court ignored, but that is OK, because the court can only decide whether a law is properly applied or not.

Again, too early and the reaction from LH will be very interesting.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
racko
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:05 am

Direct your complaints at Mr. Roland Koch and Mr. Volker Bouffier.
 
DrStrange
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:08 am

So does this mean delayed departures are also not allowed? (regarding flights, which were scheduled before 2300h?)
 
BrouAviation
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:10 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
The former MP of Hesse, Roland Koch, said in a statement in 2001, that there should be no "planned" night flights between 11 pm and 5 am, now, planned, means that delays can be worked off, as this is customs world wide. The ban now exceeds that.

So purely hypothetical, when the aircraft is delayed and departs the gate at 22:59 and arrives at the holding point at 23:04, it won't be allowed to take-off?
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:25 am

I just read part of the ruling, concerning delayed departures there is the little word "planned", however, that has to be confirmed. So far, and like it has been since October, a flight that is not wheels off by 22h59 is grounded until next morning. Pure idiocy and ignoring facts in airline operations.

Also interesting is, the previously authorized figure of 150 average ops in the shoulder hours, 22h00 to 23h00 and 05h00 to 06h00 has been reduced by 17 to 133.

This is a slap into the face of LHCargo and a severe blow to the status of a cargpo hub.

The courts simply ignore that in order to be competetive, the late evening and early morning banks must be viable. Now, many feeder flights don't connect any more.

Again, let's wait for the statement and the reaction from Lufthansa, but we have a worst case scenario here.

.
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something
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:26 am

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 7):
So purely hypothetical, when the aircraft is delayed and departs the gate at 22:59 and arrives at the holding point at 23:04, it won't be allowed to take-off?

It's not only hypothetical but reality since last October. It's happened a few times before. No take off or landing clearance after 23.00.

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 3):
Quoting something (Reply 2):

Backed by CDU and FDP. Unbelievable.

Unbelievable? Check your signature

CDU and FDP have traditionally been ''pro economy'', if you will. But..

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
Still, Koch revised that statement before another stae election with the 17 flights and won the election.

Every party is now officially against night flights, against too much noise bla bla. It's all just strategy. If they're all against it, nobody is going to lose voters to another party. Could the CDU gain voters by advocating for a more liberal approach? Possibly. Enough to make it worth while? No, because night flights are conflicting with the law as it stands so they just play it safe and jump on the ''night flights are terrible'' bandwagon.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:32 am

I am against curfews, but I can live with the verdict.

Bear in mind that this is not the last step. Formally speaking, they stopped the curfew because the way the exemptions were granted was illegal. It is not illegal to start a new case to allow some night flights.
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:33 am

Quoting something (Reply 9):
No, because night flights are conflicting with the law as it stands so they just play it safe and jump on the ''night flights are terrible'' bandwagon.

It is pure populism. The Bundestag can change the law, they still have a majority, but it won't pass in the Bundesrat. At least not now. A couple of thousand jobs lost and we will see how the unions will kick their SPD. Schroeder would have done it.
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sweair
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:33 am

Maybe something for the future, when building a new airport, ban new housing close to it in the future. Often airports were remote but housing has grown around it, ending with the airport being closed.

50-60 km from the closest settlement should be survivable..  
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:59 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 12):
Maybe something for the future, when building a new airport, ban new housing close to it in the future.

You Swedes are lucky, 6 or 7 million people living in a large country. There is not a single place in Germany where a new airport could be build, with a 60 km buffering around the perimeter. Besides, airports have to be where people live, otherwise they are white elephants. Mirabel is the bad example. Besides, airports attract people and businesses. DFW and IAD are good examples and I had the chance in my life to know the "before airport" and "after airport" developments.

There is no way around changing the law, either through Berlin or Brussels. LH is losing the viability of the late evening bank. This court ruling damages the location and legislation has to heal that as soon as possible.
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Rara
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:32 am

"Die Frachtsparte Lufthansa Cargo, fürchtet angesichts des Nachtflugverbots um die besonders lukrativen Expressflüge in der Nacht. Laut jüngsten Aussagen von Cargo-Chef Karl Ulrich Garnadt kostet das Verbot das Unternehmen im Jahr voraussichtlich 40 Millionen Euro beim operativen Gewinn."

http://www.airliners.de/rahmenbeding...rueckschlag-fuer-deutschland/26830


Well that shouldn't be too bad then, seeing that they posted an operative net profit of 240 million Euros for 2011.  
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:52 am

Well, yes, so who needs money? LHCargo was the best division in LH. Now, the new year is something completely differenmt, you nver can translate the results of the previous year into the current year.

BTW, the court allowed night flights but these have to be filled up to capacity with 90 tons of express cargo. So much to the wisdom of jedges in their ivory towers. . 30% Express freight is the average, the rest is fill up. That a flight. The most urgent freight doictates the pace, that should be understood by educated people. Unfortunately, it is not, as we can see.

They obviously did not understand the complexity of freight operations.
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aloges
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:01 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 5):
Direct your complaints at Mr. Roland Koch and Mr. Volker Bouffier.

Indeed. Their my-way-or-the-highway politics were always going to backfire, now it looks as though they have.   

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 10):
It is not illegal to start a new case to allow some night flights.

I'll keep my fingers crossed. There's got to be a middle ground, but the current    politicians in charge are not the ones to find it.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 16):
I'll keep my fingers crossed. There's got to be a middle ground, but the current politicians in charge are not the ones to find it.

since when do we agree on matters? That's what I said in the other thread, the forumla is quite simple, as many as needed, as few as possible, with the latest state-of-the-art equipment under obersvance of all practicalnoise abatement procedures.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
t is pure populism. The Bundestag can change the law, they still have a majority, but it won't pass in the Bundesrat. At least not now. A couple of thousand jobs lost and we will see how the unions will kick their SPD. Schroeder would have done it.

you obviously did not acknowledge that Koch/Bouffier observed the rights of LH Cargo and Night Express. I said that the Merkel goverment missed the chance to update § 29, had they done it immediately after the election this would not have happened, Old political wisdom: cruelties must be done straight after elections, Four years later no one remembers. You certainly cannot expect from a SPD / Greens government anything that goes into the right direction. But I bet that a grand coaltiion under pressure from the unions will go ahead and change that paragraph.


I am looking forward to the in.depth reply and actions taken by LH, this will take a while but it wll happen. There is also a chance that delays may still depart after 11 pm, I have seen the words "no planned" somewhere, that could mean that delayed departures and landings might go.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:48 pm

First reactions from LH are published in newsletters

CEO Christopf Franz said : Frankfurt, Hesse, the whole Export- and Logistic nation Germany is threatened to get their wings clipped. This is a heavy blow against the economic location Germany and there is no doubt that one of the largest hubs in Europe will fall back in the international competetion.


However, Lufthansa now has the chance to prove the requirements for certain night flights in the new planning permission hearing. Lufthansa was not permitted to participate in the current process. Todays ruling makes it posible for LH to participate and argue towards the necessity of certain night flights.

This may take a couple of years again but meanwhile, may be a grand coalition after 2013 has changed the law and makes this procedure obsolete.

One thing is for sure, the logistoic champion of the world cannot close down for 6 hours each night without losing that status in the short run.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
aloges
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:50 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
since when do we agree on matters?

I never thought the hard curfew was a good idea, but I do see many of the points made by its supporters. The problem I had with your posts was that you never seemed to admit that some of those are in fact valid.  

IIRC, it was fellow a.netter Burkhard who suggested that much higher fees for flights between 23:00 and 05:00 plus modified/improved aproach and departures routes might work. That has so far been my favourite of the random ideas I read hear.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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mercure1
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:57 pm

Bravo. Civility for citizens and court not pushed around by business interest.

LH should be happy with what it has . It just got a brand new runway to the great benefit to further build capacity and slots at its hub, so in return it had to concede night ops which it knew was a potential outcome scenario following the new runway. Its like giving a child a new toy, and child cries about having taken away old one.
mercure f-wtcc
 
something
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 20):
Bravo. Civility for citizens and court not pushed around by business interest.

In principle I would agree; this situation however is different. The ''residents'' around FRA shamelessly exploited a formality. And interestingly, the most vociferous of protestors live in the north east of FRA - areas that would remain entirely unaffected by night departures via runway 18. And just as they are given a finger, they reach for the full hand and have already stated to continue their protests until runway 25R is closed.

We're looking at the particular interests of a few hundred people, against the interest of many thousand LH and FRA direct and indirect employees (on top of the interest of millions of Germans to see all those taxes FRA and LH generate that will now have to be raised elsewhere. In other words, a bus driver in Flensburg might now pay for some quiet 20 minutes at night in FRA.) Surely, that's a victory for the citizens.

Maybe you'll see these concerned citizens on one of the next demonstrations..

http://www.demonstrantenmieten.de/category/fluglarm/
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
speedbird128
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 20):
LH should be happy with what it has

Tell that to those that will not have a job. Bravo indeed.

The retards win again. Soon the loonies will run the assylum. Oh hold on...
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something
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 22):
The retards win again. Soon the loonies will run the assylum. Oh hold on...

It's just sanctimonious as F. I don't live near an airport that has night operations, but I do hear pigeons and other birds outside, dogs, annoying children, mopeds, loud cars, those diesel transporters that people on my street can apparently only drive in the first gear at high rpms, etc. Who is helping me? Who is paying me them big compensation bucks?

We're not even talking about all that many landings here. It's about a few departures over runway 18 at night. Not many people live there and those who do, are only positively affected by the new runway if anything. Landings on 25L and 25R allow for more take offs on 25C and therefore result in less take offs over runway 18 during the day. This has been in practice for many, many years and everybody seemed fine with it until this viral ''airports are evil'' campaign was started by people who aren't even affected by them. All at the expense of people who are (employees direct and indirect, travellers, customers etc.). And they're getting paid for that through compensation too.

What a farce.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 20):
Bravo. Civility for citizens and court not pushed around by business interest.

A German court is independent, never pushed around by business interestes. The court judges if a law was properly observed or not. that#s all.

Quoting aloges (Reply 19):
s fellow a.netter Burkhard who suggested that much higher fees for flights between 23:00 and 05:00 plus modified/improved aproach and departure

That would be a solution, however IMHO making 744s and MD11s expensive and 777F at the regular rate then we are at the formula I have written.

CGN has reduced landing fees for the ///F and FX promptly exchanged the MD11 for a 77F.

LH CEO Mr. Franz made a sarcastic statement on TV, saying that this was a good day, for AMS, PAR and DXB, How right he is.

Whichever way you look at it, this is not a local matter. FRA is in competition with the above and it received a knock-out today.
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lightsaber
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:36 am

I'll be curious to see how LH counters now that they will be allowed their say.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
One thing is for sure, the logistoic champion of the world cannot close down for 6 hours each night without losing that status in the short run.

This will have long term impacts. Competitors to LH who weren't competitive before might be now.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
The courts simply ignore that in order to be competetive, the late evening and early morning banks must be viable. Now, many feeder flights don't connect any more.

A six hour break is too much. I wish the reduction had been on a noise basis (say by LHR 'noise points') where buying different equipment could rationalize the situation. It isn't as if FRA is a new airport...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
Todays ruling makes it posible for LH to participate and argue towards the necessity of certain night flights.

Good to hear. But interesting legal process they couldn't argue this before.

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 22):
Tell that to those that will not have a job. Bravo indeed.

This will also halt infrastructure investment on the cargo side.  
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
The court judges if a law was properly observed or not. that#s all.

Which is good to hear. The rules for LH just weren't fair.  


I shake my head at this. Frankfurt is giving up an economic advantage. The 'law of unintended consequences' says someone else will benefit. It will be interesting to see who does. DUS? MUC? BER? CDG? AMS? Or DXB? I have a feeling it will be 'all of the above.' LH (and *A), just lost a connection advantage.

I've posted again and again that night time and slot restrictions at the European airports helped 'seed' the growth of the mid-east carriers. The enforced six hour delay makes it easier for EK to justify its 75 minute minimum connection time. ; perhaps I should say easier for a passenger to accept.


An absolute curfew makes zero sense to me...

Lightsaber
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something
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:54 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
An absolute curfew makes zero sense to me...

FRAport failed to legally apply for night flights and therefore, can't have them granted legally. An exception could have been made but the protests were too abundant. Now FRAport have to re-apply for the same night flights that had been in place for I don't know how many years and can get them granted. It's possible under German law under certain circumstances, all of which are met by LH Cargo ops (and always have been met). It's just that FRAport forgot to formally apply for night operations when the new runway was opened and on the count of this technicality night flights are now gone.

Incidentally, night flights go out of runway 18. The new noise complaints come from the approach path of runway 25R. Those aren't even close to each other, meaning the people who protested against night flights aren't even affected by them.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
CiC
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:56 am

And all Check-In crew and F/A are now looking forward to meet these anti-airport-activists on their next holiday flight to Palma de Mallorca...!!!
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:33 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
I shake my head at this. Frankfurt is giving up an economic advantage. The 'law of unintended consequences' says someone else will benefit. It will be interesting to see who does. DUS? MUC? BER? CDG? AMS? Or DXB? I have a

The biggest winners will be the mid east carriers, but AMS as well. CDG is too screwed up but AMS is efficient and airlines there offer lower rates to freight forwarders. These freight will not show up in the FRA statistics as forwarders will truck thois direct to AMS from their off-airport terminals.

The pity is that FRA has lost its flexibility. Since the airlines could not make their point in the hearing, the court has drwan a black and white oicture which is far from reality. It does not observe the needs and the reality of day to ay airline operation. There is a little hope that at least the guillotine ruling of a sharp 11pm cut-off is over ruled since the word "planned" is shown in the preliminary written statement.

That could mean, a flight planned for 22h15 that's the latest departure LH has now in the timetable !!!!! (incredible for a major global hub) could eventually take off at 23h05 or later if delayed. That has to be seen.

On the positive side - the new landing runway has been approved but that is a sour victory. The NIMBYs will of course continue to demonstrate each Monday at t1,
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LTU330
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:27 am

Quoting something (Reply 21):
Maybe you'll see these concerned citizens on one of the next demonstrations..

Same problems at MUC. Most of the demonstrators are not going to be in any way affected by the third runway. I live directly under the approach of 26L and it's not really an issue, even though aircraft are only around 3500ft going over. People in the nearby town of Wartenberg will be affected by the third runway, but because of the Airport, the value of their property, and the number of houses and jobs in the area already increased massively. They are happy to get more for their houses but they don't want a share of the noise from the other towns. Most of the jobs in this area have been created as a result of MUC. Before the airport came the whole area was just swamp land and farming. Some people just want to complain at everything. There are families around here whose children drown out the noise of any landing aircraft anyway. They even complain about the Erding Airbase that sees maybe one Tornado testflight every few weeks. This base will close soon and all of a sudden many people will be looking for jobs. Where can they work in this area, oh, let me see, MUC ?
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:15 am

How many of the guys complaining in here have families and live under flightpaths?
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
fraT
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:53 am

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 30):
How many of the guys complaining in here have families and live under flightpaths?

Me! I am living 20 km south of FRA directly under runway 18 path. As I have said before, I have never woken up by an departing aircraft, neither have my kids. You can hear them, but that's it, even in summer with open windows. I have no problem sitting on the balcony.

I do remember times when the Rhein Main Airforce base was still there and Galaxies were going out in the middle of the night. After the AFB closed there were still more than a hundred night flights. That was reduced first to approx. 50 flights and in recent years to 17 night flights. So the night ops have been reduce by nearly 90 %.

It's a shame that people who were allowed to build houses in communities like Floersheim at a time when it was clear that the new runway will come now get away with their complaints. They enjoyed the low prices because of the proximity of the airport.

As pointed out by others you have to check on mondays who is demonstrating. People who live in Sachsenhausen, Mainz, Wiesbaden. They wouldn't be affected by night ops as that would be handled via runway 18.
As the court confirmed the legality of the new runway, there is no reason for them to demonstrate. They should however get into an dialogue with FRAPORT and DFS to not use the new runway from 8 PM to 6 AM which I think could be possible.
 
aloges
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting CiC (Reply 27):
And all Check-In crew and F/A are now looking forward to meet these anti-airport-activists on their next holiday flight to Palma de Mallorca...!!!

They'll be most happy to deal with the moaning and whining of those very passengers after they themselves delay a 22:55 departure to 23:00:01 because they can't fit all their excessive carry-on luggage in the bins.   

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 30):
How many of the guys complaining in here have families and live under flightpaths?

I used to live under the eastern final approach to Ramstein. The C-5s with the old engines were the best. And as a child growing up in rural Lower Saxony, I particularly enjoyed the low-level overflights of Transalls and Tornados.

My point is this: While I do agree that noise has an impact, I think it is just as unwise to overstate it as it is to downplay it. Not everyone in the vicinity of FRA suffers as immensely from the noise as the noisiest activists claim.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Burkhard
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 30):
How many of the guys complaining in here have families and live under flightpaths?

I do, the appoach to the 7C is vertical over us. Most aircraft I cannot see the tail.
 
B777LRF
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:17 pm

I used to live not far from the end of 20 in Brussels. DHL operates out of there, and the authorities have this wonderful idea about spreading the noise. This means runways are used with little regard to wind direction, so long as it's fairly within limits, and departures are sent hither and dither. 20 was, and perhaps still is, especially popular for late night departures during the week-ends, and the sound of an old Kalitta 747-100 going over at 300ft with all donks going at full chat, well, it wasn't as if you didn't notice it!

But I would never complain about it, and not just because I'm an aviation nut. I knew full well the airport was there, and that departures off 20 wouldn't be passing far overhead, before I moved in. I'm living in the Rhein Valley now, and got train lines going not far from where I live. There's also a train line on the other side of the river, and between those lines and the surrounding hills it's pretty noticeable. But it's absolutely liveable, and again - I knew about that before moving in. So even though there's no love between me and locomotives, the thought of starting a petition to ban night trains from operating has never crossed my mind.
Signature. You just read one.
 
speedbird128
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:00 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 28):
The NIMBYs will of course continue to demonstrate each Monday at t1,

That should now be made illegal and they get escorted from the airport.

Why they (fraport) continue to tolerate their disruption is beyond me. The noise(!!!!!!!!) they make is rather unnessecary....
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fraT
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RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 35):
That should now be made illegal and they get escorted from the airport.

Why they (fraport) continue to tolerate their disruption is beyond me. The noise(!!!!!!!!) they make is rather unnessecary....

Unfortunately FRAPORT cannot do anything about the demonstrators. Another court ruled that an airport terminal has to be seen as a public space and therefor demonstrations are legal as long as they are registered.

Gotta love the German courts.......
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting frat (Reply 36):
Another court ruled that an airport terminal has to be seen as a public space and therefor demonstrations are legal as long as they are registered.

Gotta love the German courts.......

Well, FRA is majority owned by public entities. If it wasn't considered public ground (where protests are a fundamental civil right), you'd have to reconsider the rules for lots of places - and the outcome wouldn't be pretty for our freedom of assembly.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
fraT
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 37):
Well, FRA is majority owned by public entities. If it wasn't considered public ground (where protests are a fundamental civil right), you'd have to reconsider the rules for lots of places - and the outcome wouldn't be pretty for our freedom of assembly.

Sorry but that is a bit too simple. That would mean that a demonstration should be allowed inside a city hall, in a courthouse, a prison or other public owned places.
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:17 pm

LH must be pleased with its homeland..
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting frat (Reply 38):
That would mean that a demonstration should be allowed inside a city hall, in a courthouse, a prison or other public owned places.

They aren't?
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:13 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 37):
Well, FRA is majority owned by public entities. If it wasn't considered public ground (where protests are a fundamental civil right), you'd have to reconsider the rules for lots of places - and the outcome wouldn't be pretty for our freedom of assembly.

That's not the reason, the remaining 40 odd percent of Fraport is owned by the public, individuals that is, whereas the shares of the state of Hesse and the city of Frankfurt are owned by these corporations, but the citizens do not own the state or the city. In total, they make up the state or the city. Ownership means that you can dispose over what you own. The individual shareholder can, the citizen cannot sell a single share, not even the mayor can, she/he would need a majority vote by the city assembly and those who give that vote would not benefit, the cities budget would. . .

The facility itself, as an airline terminal, is at least on the land side publicly accessable, there are rules which have to be observed (Flughafenbenutzungsordunng, yes, we are in Germany) but if you are enough individuals together, you can sh*t on that and make 140 dbA noise with vuvuzelas and whistles.

We have a situation now that the NIMBYs take a day off on Easter Monday (yes, we are in Germany) and then continue to demonstrate with the goal to close the new runway.

The Leipzig court has explicitly said that the legal procedure to build the new runway was correct. Hence, the runway is legal, and like in STR21, a minority demonstrates against an infrastructure project that has been confirmed through all legal hurdles of the planning and zoning law and confirmed by the highest administration court. .




Quoting frat (Reply 38):
Sorry but that is a bit too simple. That would mean that a demonstration should be allowed inside a city hall, in a courthouse, a prison or other public owned places.

The comparison would be the Central Station, interesting enough, in STR they had permission only outside the station.

No court would allow a demo inside a court house, with the good reason that courts are independent, but outise it is OK. Prisons are ruled out since they are not public access. Again, the public does not own all these places, thy have access to them, at last partly.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1446
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:16 am

In my opinion Lufthansa relied too much on Frankfurt Airport, instead of looking for viable alternatives for the cargo operations. Frankfurt Hahn might be a very good alternative for them and would also result in lower cost.

The cargo which still arrives on passenger feeders into Frankfurt Airport could be trucked up to Hahn and be loaded there.

Just have a look what Air Cargo Germany doing at Frankfurt Hahn with their 747 cargo operations. They just were bought by Air Bridge Cargo who operates also the brand new 748F.

Surely a step Lufthansa should have at least considered instead of going into legal battle which will last for years.
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
fraT
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:38 am

Do you really think, that LH did not consider the night ops at Hahn? To be honest that is pretty naive.
They probably just calculated that trucking the stuff to Hahn is not making sense for them, either financially or time wise (or maybe both).

The comparison with a pure cargo carrier is difficult as LH is carrying most of the freight in the belly of pax planes.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:09 am

You cannot compare what ABC and Air Cargo Germany does with the LH ops. The Russians are all cargo carriers, Lh is a combination carrier and that is exactly the difference. Totally different marlket they cater for. Same goes for ETIHAD, which has pax flights to FRA and cargo flights to HHN. For them FRA/HHN is a spoke, for LH its the hub.

A combination carrier transits freight from all pax/cargo flights to all pax/cargo flights. That can work at a single location only and due to the massive presense of LH at FRA it works only at FRA. besides, look at the map and the location of FRA. It is the geographic and demographic centre of Europe, there is no better location anywhere else.

Next - costs - for LH, HHN is not cheaper but adds costs which no customer will pay. LH would have to duplicate the FRA station (smaller scale, but still) with warehouse, maintenance, staff. Plus the trucking costs. No customer pays for that

Next - transit - the total transit time aircraft to aircraft FRA-HHN or HHN-FRA has to be calculated with 8 hours. That kills the idea in first place, even if there would be a cost advantage.

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 42):
Surely a step Lufthansa should have at least considered instead of going into legal battle which will last for years.

You can bet your years income that they have calculated every if and but and angle of this. The answer was and is NO. It does not work.They might go to LEJ to use some synergies DHL could offer, that remains to be seen.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Burkhard
Topic Author
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:11 pm

I'm confident LH management now will find a way out of this situation - and that HHN is considered in this too to have one or two very early morning departures from HHN. I agree with you that this is bad for Lufthansa, for Fraport, and for our area - but I also am optimistic that creativity and common sense will make things possible not thought about yet. AFL has its MD11 stationed in HHN already - so maybe LH keeps a few and they are maintained there together?

What I see in the verdict is that LH should reconsider if the B77F really is the right plane. If there is so little express flight and so much filler, maybe the A332F is the better choice?
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: FRA Curfew Remains

Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:45 am

HHN makes no sense for LH, whichever way you look at it. You cannot beat the clock, when it takes 8 hours for transit cargo and at least 6 hours for locally received cargo (at FRA) to be trucked to HHN, you might as well leave it at FRA and send the fligths out at 6 or 7 am. The flip side of that, the return of the aircarft falls into the curfew time again.

The courts have to understand that and so far LH did not have a chance to prove point. Now they have. DHL had the same problem with LEJ, they also need fill up freight to make some long distanmce flights viable. The court has learned and understood that operaing an aircraft with 30 or 50% hot air is neither economical nor ecological.

The ratio at FRA may be different, on some days it may be 30% express and class rates on other 40 or 50% the average does it. But saying that there is no express freight at FRA is simply wrong, there is, and when looking at the percentage, the revenue must be shown, not the tonnage.

Thi is up to LH to prove and they will certainly do that.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!

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