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aircanadaa330
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Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:37 pm

Seems Air Canada's money problems are getting worse. Moody's downgraded their credit rating from B3 to CAA1. Their reasoning is the concern Air Canada will not be able to meet their debit obligations. Air Canada ended 2011 with $2 billion in cash.

Also the article mentions that if Air Canada doesnt cut costs soon, they will end up in Chapter 11.

I wonder how this will affect the recently announced order for two more 77Ws

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/stor...12/04/03/air-canada-downgrade.html

(note: if the link does not work, try copy and past. I am at work and for some reason links dont always work when I send them from a work computer)
Cheers;
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:58 pm

Yup, right about the same time AC's CEO took a $5.0M bonus, just for showing up for work. (Certainly not for a job well done).

Quoting aircanadaa330 (Thread starter):
Also the article mentions that if Air Canada doesnt cut costs soon, they will end up in Chapter 11.

It's CCAA, and that threat was presented to the employees. The answer was, "yawn ... whatever". (Remember, unlike CH11 in the US, Employee contracts and pensions can not be changed without the employees agreement in CCAA.)

It was the threat of CCAA that got employees to take huge pay cuts in 2003. At no time were "the books" ever opened to prove financial hardship. To date, over $2.4B has been saved from those pay cuts alone. Of course, AC will try it again .... management all need bigger boats and a chalet closer to the lifts in Switzerland.

Quoting aircanadaa330 (Thread starter):
debit obligations. Air Canada ended 2011 with $2 billion in cash.

I will assume you mean debt obligations. And AC does not have $2.0B cumulative debt payments due for about 10 years ... hardly a crunch crisis.

Quoting aircanadaa330 (Thread starter):
I wonder how this will affect the recently announced order for two more 77Ws

Rumour is those aircraft are not destined for AC, but to be resold.

[Edited 2012-04-04 09:00:08]
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
aircanadaa330
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
(Remember, unlike CH11 in the US, Employee contracts and pensions can not be changed without the employees agreement in CCAA.)

thats good to hear, at least the employees will not get screwed over.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
AC's CEO took a $5.0M bonus

wow...you would think his salary would cover all his expenses and he would say "um..thanks but you know....the company could use that money, so I will pass"

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
I will assume you mean debt obligations. And AC does not have $2.0B cumulative debt payments due for about 10 years ... hardly a crunch crisis.

I thought that was cash on hand. How much debit does Air Canada have?
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:20 pm

Fred Lazar (quoted in the article) also wrote an editorial detailing AC's woes in the National Post last week.
http://opinion.financialpost.com/201.../03/29/what-would-help-air-canada/

Interesting comment in this CBC news article, in which he quotes that fully half of all AC management positions could be eliminated easily.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
aircanadaa330
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:35 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 3):
Interesting comment in this CBC news article, in which he quotes that fully half of all AC management positions could be eliminated easily.

yes, but what are the odds they will make those cuts?
Cheers;
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:30 pm

Quoting aircanadaa330 (Reply 4):
yes, but what are the odds they will make those cuts?

Not likely.

The present management team is looking for short term gain, sell, then bolt. Not long term viability at all. It has been suggested that the only reason a LWC carrier has been envisioned, is because it would be separate from AC. Then, it could be sold, and proceeds divided among foreign investors.

When employees, thinking more of a long term solution suggested putting those productivity gains in AC itself, it was ignored. That is why employees are looking for negotiation and not arbitration, so the WHOLE airline can be fixed, not just parted out and sold.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:18 pm

Right - because even ACPA knows the solutions right? Wasn;t it former ACPA members (and MEC) that were kicked out in favour militant nuts in the current union...right. Former ACPA members writing letter sympathetic to the arguments of management.

AC needs lower costs. Pay our executives $0, and we are still heading for the same slippery course.

Longhauler - the invitation to have a meet and greet at headquarters is still very much open. Numerous people at HQ read your posts and would love the opportunity to show you the facts as best as they can be presented. We are patiently awaiting for you to accept this invitation. Until such time, your still missing the big picture.
 
aircanadaa330
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 5):
The present management team is looking for short term gain, sell, then bolt. Not long term viability at all. It has been suggested that the only reason a LWC carrier has been envisioned, is because it would be separate from AC. Then, it could be sold, and proceeds divided among foreign investors.

When employees, thinking more of a long term solution suggested putting those productivity gains in AC itself, it was ignored. That is why employees are looking for negotiation and not arbitration, so the WHOLE airline can be fixed, not just parted out and sold.

I wonder why the board of Directors as well as the share holders allow management to conduct business like this.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 6):
We are patiently awaiting for you to accept this invitation. Until such time, your still missing the big picture.

What is the big picture? Liquidation?

Dont get me wrong, I love Air Canada, I have always had a great time flying with them, and I find the crew much easier to deal with, but with the way things are going, and now the down grading of the credit rating....I am kind of worried about the future of Air Canada. I do not think it will liquidate, the government will never allow it to happen, but I also do not like the idea of the flag carrier having so many problems with no clear path to correct them.
Cheers;
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 6):
Numerous people at HQ read your posts and would love the opportunity to show you the facts as best as they can be presented. We are patiently awaiting for you to accept this invitation. Until such time, your still missing the big picture.

While Rome burns, AC HQ staff are distracted by a website. Terrific. Perhaps these AC HQ staff should focus on making AC profitable, instead of wanting to meet a pilot to score a silly point (while Rome burns and burns and.....).

Now that Moody's has downgraded, I wonder what S+P's schedule is with AC's next review?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 6):
AC needs lower costs. Pay our executives $0, and we are still heading for the same slippery course.

It's not the executives Mark. It's the hundreds (thousands?) of overstaffed mgmt ranks at AC HQ and likely throughout the country that Fred Lazar is referring to.

The key point in the article though, is that ALL NA carriers are becoming LCC's now with their ability under Ch11 to slash costs, which will further isolate AC as the highest cost carrier by an increasing margin over time. So what is AC mgmt doing about this growing cost gap?
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:15 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
Yup, right about the same time AC's CEO took a $5.0M bonus, just for showing up for work.

Agreed. There's no way they are mutually exclusive.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
Rumour is those aircraft are not destined for AC, but to be resold.

Was this their intent all along? Or has demand slipped away? I can't see them buying the aircraft solely for the purpose of re-sale unless they got a killer deal on them.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 3):
Interesting comment in this CBC news article, in which he quotes that fully half of all AC management positions could be eliminated easily.

I don't doubt him, but I think he's just making a guess, because there's no way he can know that for sure unless he's been on the inside.

A little while back my company's bottom line was starting to hurt and the decision was made to cut out redundant mid-level types. Within a couple months, 2000 people were gone. I don't work in the finance department so I can't say exactly what effect it had, but from what I heard it certainly kept us alive. Maybe something AC execs can think about.   

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 8):
While Rome burns, AC HQ staff are distracted by a website. Terrific. Perhaps these AC HQ staff should focus on making AC profitable, instead of wanting to meet a pilot to score a silly point (while Rome burns and burns and.....).

Your point? Everybody who works at a desk all day does something non-work related for at least a few minutes out of the work day. The website also happens to be related to their industry, more than either of us can say.
Flying refined.
 
threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
Of course, AC will try it again .... management all need bigger boats and a chalet closer to the lifts in Switzerland.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
AC's CEO took a $5.0M bonus, just for showing up for work.

The AC employee groups (perhaps with the exception of certain baggage handlers after the recent buffoonery at Pearson) have enjoyed the position of being held in high regard by most of the traveling public. I believe the willingness to concede salaries & benefits in the past has proven that the rank & file members are not radical unionists unable to budge to management's offers. However, in order to maintain the public's goodwill during the inevitable escalation of labour unrest at AC, it might be helpful to take the moral high road.
As with everything, there are many shades of grey between the two positions.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 6):
Longhauler - the invitation to have a meet and greet at headquarters is still very much open. Numerous people at HQ read your posts and would love the opportunity to show you the facts as best as they can be presented. We are patiently awaiting for you to accept this invitation. Until such time, your still missing the big picture.

I understand your sentiment. Now understand mine ...

I have never refuted what you say, only giving you the other side of the coin. I will say this again, we ARE on the same side of the coin! However .... if "HQ" is so sure of its position, why wont they bring it to the table? That is all the pilots (for example, as we are only one group) want.

Stand before a mediator, and make your point. If the mediator agrees, then so be it. But ... for the last 12 years, AC has refused to do just that! Understand though, it wont be just pilot costs being judged, as the pilot answer will be "Yes, you want our Flight Operations costs to be below Sunwing, fair deal ... are our management costs below Sunwing. Because if they are not .... no deal"

I have watched "HQ" blatantly lie to the public, knowing the employees can not respond due to the Code of Conduct. Will they lie to a mediator?

Thank you again for the invitation, if you ever find yourself on my ship, I am more than open to talk. However, as you may well know, we are flying at maximum Transport Canada will allow. In fact last week I had to drop a flight, as I would have exceeded CARS limits. I therefore have no time to head your way.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 10):
However, in order to maintain the public's goodwill during the inevitable escalation of labour unrest at AC, it might be helpful to take the moral high road.

I agree.

When I fly, these issues are behind me. I will fly safely and efficiently from A to B, and back again. In fact, that is why I love flying so much, the discipline is a tremendous escape. During slow times in the middle of the Atlantic, we normally just talk about girls, trucks and the Leafs.

However, when passengers ask, (and they do), I wont discuss these issues. Nor will I make any PA announcements of the same issues. Passengers don't want to hear it and I don't want to talk about it!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:33 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 12):
we normally just talk about...the Leafs.

OK, I understand you guys are under a lot of stress, but that IS desperate. The principles of CRM dictate that one of you in the cockpit should speak up about unsettling in-flight behaviour.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 12):
Nor will I make any PA announcements of the same issues.

On my last batch of flights, I had two captains make PA announcements regarding the current unrest. Both were francophone, although I'm not sure that means anything. They were professional enough, albeit with pro-pilot undertones, but I would have thought it would have been more professional to 'stick to flying'.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 13):
They were professional enough, albeit with pro-pilot undertones, but I would have thought it would have been more professional to 'stick to flying'.

The union thinks we should involve the passengers. The company does not.

On this issue, I agree with the company.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
ykaops
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:56 am

I worked for AC on a regional level..and whatever AC brass thought basically funnelled down to the regionals. Like the saying goes SH-T flows downhill, and AC execs were pros at protecting their A$$ES and making the regionals pay for their extravagant tastes.
Managers managing managers?? WTF is that? AC , get your head out of your A$$ and treat the employee group fairly and equitably.. If it wasn't for your employee group YOU wouldnt have a job yourselves!
Maybe AC shud grow some gonads and challenge the Government for a fair playing field in Canadian Aviation.. If one major Carrier has to speak and print things in both official languages, EVERY carrier should have to.. this is a huge expense to AC.. HMMM better yet.. maybe the government should grow some gonads and re-regulate aviation in Canada...

One thing I can say for sure is.. I am glad I got out of the airline game show when I did in 2008 after 20+ yrs with KI,8P and QK..
 
ANM604
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:28 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 3):
Fred Lazar (quoted in the article) also wrote an editorial detailing AC's woes in the National Post last week.
http://opinion.financialpost.com/201...nada/

Interesting article, he definitely nailed a couple very key points.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 8):
The key point in the article though, is that ALL NA carriers are becoming LCC's now with their ability under Ch11 to slash costs, which will further isolate AC as the highest cost carrier by an increasing margin over time. So what is AC mgmt doing about this growing cost gap?

What can they cut? Well, as you no doubt read, there is not much AC can do about labour costs, even under CCAA. Which brings up the bloated DB pension plan, ACPPA, and the taxes in Canada. Take your pick, but none are going to be going anywhere anytime soon. The unions won't let go of the DB plans (they should really just take them over), and the Gov has shown no interest in eliminating the ACPPA nor the multitude of taxes they skim off the aviation sector. They should be lowering the taxes, as it has shown to stimulate growth for *all* airlines, not just AC. Which makes for a healthy industry in general, which would lead to increased corporate tax revenue to offset the costs of eliminating some of the current tax schemes.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
I don't doubt him, but I think he's just making a guess, because there's no way he can know that for sure unless he's been on the inside.

An overly optimistic guess at that. Sure there could be management positions cut, but they could also cut positions elsewhere (minus the Pilots, who it seems are slightly understaffed if anything)

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
The union thinks we should involve the passengers. The company does not.

Glad to see you, and most others, have taken the high road. Sadly, there are a few who seem to think this is the "right" choice. Clearly they haven't seen the public reaction to unions lately (especially in Ontario and BC; both are embroiled in labour disputes)

Quoting ykaops (Reply 15):
Managers managing managers?? WTF is that?

Hate to break it to you, but every other company has that same structure (unless your company believes in leadership by communism). Can you propose a different management structure? Perhaps managers should report to no one?
 
United Airline
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:18 am

What happened to the 2 A330s UA ordered for AC?
 
Skydrol
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:39 am

I find it an interesting irony the ad below showed up beside this thread:






LD4
∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
 
ykaops
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:00 am

Hate to break it to you, but every other company has that same structure (unless your company believes in leadership by communism). Can you propose a different management structure? Perhaps managers should report to no one?


LOL... You mean like the legacy air carriers in the US that have declared bankruptcy and all but disappeared... AC has been copying everything the those US carries have been doing and look where its leading them! Granted AC has had a few ideas of their own that have worked (B.O.B. product, I.F.E ) but when it comes to management structure there is a limit on what is necessary and what is overkill.. and they have exceeded the overkill point with a management structure that is wayyyyyyy too top heavy in departments where they are not needed ( Reservations, Check -in, Inflight, Ramp to mention a few. Most of these departments have managers that never step foot into their respective management areas, but sit behind a desk on occasion, or whack balls on the golf course discussing what idiotic ideas they can come up with... maybe if they listened to the employee group ideas and suggestions, there would be a bit more harmony at AC today with fewer "managers" , better customer service and employee pride!!! I was a person at my previous airline employers, but when merged into the AC family, everyone was just a number!.. pathetic management at its best, Glad I left when I did...
 
krisyyz
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
Yup, right about the same time AC's CEO took a $5.0M bonus, just for showing up for work. (Certainly not for a job well done).
Quoting aircanadaa330 (Reply 2):
thats good to hear, at least the employees will not get screwed over.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 5):
The present management team is looking for short term gain, sell, then bolt. Not long term viability at all.

I'm no expert on AC's culture or internal operations. But from a labour relations aspect, perhaps AC would be in a better position if they treated their front-line staff with respect and if the concessions to achieve profitability was shared throughout all levels of the company.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 17):
What happened to the 2 A330s UA ordered for AC?

I thought 2 of AC's A333s are owned by US and leased to AC.


KrisYYZ
 
boeing773er
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 20):
I thought 2 of AC's A333s are owned by US and leased to AC.

Nope, I'm pretty sure they are owned by UA.
here is a link to UA's filling to the FCC saying 3 A330's are owned and leased to another airline
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threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:40 pm

Quoting ykaops (Reply 19):
Most of these departments have managers that never step foot into their respective management areas, but sit behind a desk on occasion, or whack balls on the golf course discussing what idiotic ideas they can come up with... maybe if they listened to the employee group ideas and suggestions, there would be a bit more harmony at AC today with fewer "managers" , better customer service and employee pride!!! I was a person at my previous airline employers, but when merged into the AC family, everyone was just a number!.. pathetic management at its best, Glad I left when I did...

To the reader, this sounds less like an objective analysis and more like disgruntled ex-CP staff griping.

We all loved Canadi>n. It's disappeared and we've moved on. There are (and were) good and bad apples at both airlines, as in every company on the planet.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 8):
The key point in the article though, is that ALL NA carriers are becoming LCC's now with their ability under Ch11 to slash costs, which will further isolate AC as the highest cost carrier by an increasing margin over time. So what is AC mgmt doing about this growing cost gap?

What can they cut?

1. Management ranks, up to 50% by Fred Lazar's estimate.
2. They can also cut the weak, 3rd hub at YUL which, at 300mi, is too close to YYZ. No US carrier would have 2 hubs so close together.
3. They can shrink their NA fleet (E190, or A32x) since, apparently, all the losses at AC are in the North American market, they need to shrink their presence by say 50% to a profitable core. The feed to the (apparently profitable) intl network will remain.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
They should be lowering the taxes, as it has shown to stimulate growth for *all* airlines, not just AC.

Canada already has among the lowest corporate taxes in the Western World. And corps dont pay taxes until their make profit anyway.

Quoting ykaops (Reply 19):
You mean like the legacy air carriers in the US that have declared bankruptcy and all but disappeared... AC has been copying everything the those US carries have been doing and look where its leading them!

No, AC has not been copying the legacy carriers. If AC had been, the YUL hub would have been shut down, and capacity in their NA market would have been reduced by 20+%. None of this happened.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 10):
The AC employee groups (perhaps with the exception of certain baggage handlers after the recent buffoonery at Pearson) have enjoyed the position of being held in high regard by most of the traveling public.

Ummm....I dont think so. Complaining about AC service is a national pastime. Every Cdn has a story about some surly service they've had at AC. Perhaps AC insiders think they are held in high regard with the travelling public, but that's it.

Quoting ykaops (Reply 15):
If one major Carrier has to speak and print things in both official languages, EVERY carrier should have to..

Why doesnt AC lobby to stop this then? I suspect the costs are not that high, and I suspect the Quebec-based HQ is happy to have a reason/excuse to force the French language on a largely anglophone marketplace. The sadness is how many documents and manuals copied into French are likely never, ever used.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 22):
We all loved Canadi>n.

Who's "we"? Are you including investors in Canadian stock? Hope not.....
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
saloman
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:53 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 23):
2. They can also cut the weak, 3rd hub at YUL which, at 300mi, is too close to YYZ. No US carrier would have 2 hubs so close together.

Not to nitpick, because your points certainly have merit, but IAD and EWR are about 250mi from each other. Now the similarities end there, but it's worth mentioning because it seems that routes from those two airports are still being rationalized.

But what this news emphasis is that the money markets that companies like AC depend on don't much care who's to blame. Perhaps this will be the impetus needed for some movement, but I somehow doubt it.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:56 pm

Quoting saloman (Reply 24):
Not to nitpick, because your points certainly have merit, but IAD and EWR are about 250mi from each other. Now the similarities end there, but it's worth mentioning because it seems that routes from those two airports are still being rationalized.

Fair enough, but let's keep in mind UACO is a recent merger, and indeed there has been some rationalization between the 2 hubs. NYC and WAS are also HUGE markets that could arguably support 2 hubs with the same airline while not competing with each other. That is not the case with AC. Montreal is a very small hub supporting a city with a very low per capita income (among the lowest in NA) and not well placed to act as a hub. AC simply cannot justify a YUL hub with YYZ being so close. AC should have 2 hubs (one east YYZ and one west YVR). The YUL hub is a waste of resources.

Quoting saloman (Reply 24):
But what this news emphasis is that the money markets that companies like AC depend on don't much care who's to blame. Perhaps this will be the impetus needed for some movement, but I somehow doubt it.

I would like to see that this downgrade (a body blow for any company) will result in new strategic initiatives, but I doubt it. The ongoing losses at AC are indicative of incompetent mgmt up and down the ranks with a culture of defeatism. They are not up to the job.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
idjim319
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:48 am

The AC employee groups (perhaps with the exception of certain baggage handlers after the recent buffoonery at Pearson) have enjoyed the position of being held in high regard by most of the traveling public.

Sorry --- am I missing something? The baggage and sales staff at AC have lost general traveller's respect LONG AGO. Where on earth are you getting a belief that AC staff are held in high regard??? Wow! Come out west and you'll hear a different story. You are seriously misguided if you think the travelling public think the AC unions provide good service!

FA's are hit and miss and until now maybe pilots were respected. All I've heard since the sick in is that my friends and colleagues give up on AC because of these antics. They won't risk being stranded anymore. How is this being held in high regard??
 
threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:58 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 23):
They can also cut the weak, 3rd hub at YUL which, at 300mi, is too close to YYZ. No US carrier would have 2 hubs so close together.

No US carrier...except the largest and most obvious one. You seem to have overlooked both IAD & EWR and SFO & LAX. Or is 337 miles too far outside your defined parameter?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:00 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 25):
Montreal is a very small hub supporting a city with a very low per capita income (among the lowest in NA)

You've made this claim in several threads but have yet to substantiate it. Can you please provide a source?

Quoting threepoint (Reply 26):
you also overlooked SFO & LAX

I think the comment was directed more at hubs of the same airline. But I was going to mention these as well since they are both major points of entry that are so close together. Let's also no forget about SYD and MEL.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
The union thinks we should involve the passengers. The company does not.

On this issue, I agree with the company.

Good for you. Involving the passengers is completely inappropriate when in uniform.
Flying refined.
 
idjim319
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RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:10 am

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 27):
Quoting idjim319 (Reply 27):
Quoting threepoint (Reply 13):
On my last batch of flights, I had two captains make PA announcements regarding the current unrest. Both were francophone, although I'm not sure that means anything. They were professional enough, albeit with pro-pilot undertones, but I would have thought it would have been more professional to 'stick to flying'.

That in itself should be grounds for dismissal. Imagine the person in Executive First who paid....lets see a random look at YVR-LHR in J is .... $11,546.13. You paid that amount of money to hear a mouth piece yap about their labour issues? Do you honestly think that person gives a damn to hear about a pilot's labour issues?? If it were me, I'd be on the warpath with the airline. Who on earth do these pilots think pay their wages?? Honestly can this group of employees not understand how detrimental their public displays of "upset" are against their long term wellbeing as an employee of AC. This is counterproductive behaviour defined!

And what amazes me most are these pilots who cling to the notion of "professionalism". Yapping to a plane load of people is the binary opposite.

RIght. Once you succeed in your demands and AC collapses, I suggest to you that Emirates and Etihad will fire your butt in an instance for something similar....good luck on that.
 
jfidler
Posts: 388
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 3:32 pm

RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:52 am

A number of posters in this thread have said that AC is bloated with too many people at the top (management). Does anyone have some real numbers on manager-to-employee ratio at AC compared to other carriers?
 
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yyz717
Posts: 15778
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 28):
No US carrier...except the largest and most obvious one. You seem to have overlooked both IAD & EWR and SFO & LAX. Or is 337 miles too far outside your defined parameter?

Nice, selective quote. Did you read the rest of my comment? I said NYC and WAS are huge markets that can support 2 hubs and that, even then, there had been rationalization of flights between the two hubs. This does not apply to YUL. YUL, as a hub, needs to be collapsed asap.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 30):
Quoting threepoint (Reply 13):
On my last batch of flights, I had two captains make PA announcements regarding the current unrest. Both were francophone, although I'm not sure that means anything. They were professional enough, albeit with pro-pilot undertones, but I would have thought it would have been more professional to 'stick to flying'.

That in itself should be grounds for dismissal.

I agree. Highly unprofessional. It makes you wonder why other AC employees on that flight did not file a complaint against these captains. No customer facing employees should tolerate other employees' unprofessional behaviour in front of customers. In some companies, that is also considered unprofessional.

[Edited 2012-04-05 21:16:53]
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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yyz717
Posts: 15778
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:02 am

Quoting jfidler (Reply 31):
A number of posters in this thread have said that AC is bloated with too many people at the top (management).

These comments emanate from a professor at a Cdn university who tracks the airline. See article links above. Do not equate management with execs though. Management is a general term that applies to any professional, non-union staff who make (say) more than $50K/year. These are the ranks that Fred Lazar claims should be cut by 50%. And he's probably right.

Quoting jfidler (Reply 31):
Does anyone have some real numbers on manager-to-employee ratio at AC compared to other carriers?

Doubtful. Does it matter? Money-losing airlines (like AC) need to cut management (whatever the ratios) while money-making carriers in the SAME operating environment (such as Westjet) can add all the mgmt they want in their well-run, efficient operation (but I bet they won't due to their bottom line focus).
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:03 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 18):
I find it an interesting irony the ad below showed up beside this thread:

Unfortunately, good service and good financial management rarely have much in common. Look at all the airlines with excellent service reputations that went bust and no longer exist -- Swissair and VARIG are two that come to mind. I could name a dozen more.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 23):
Perhaps AC insiders think they are held in high regard with the travelling public, but that's it.

AC wouldn't have won as many service awards as they have if that was the case. I know Canadians have always liked criticizing AC, but outside Canada my experience is that AC has a generally excellent reputation. In Europe I know many people who much prefer AC's service to their own national carrier, and that includes carriers with good reputations like LH/LX/KL etc.
 
sbworcs
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:08 pm

One thing I fail to understand and this is not just aimed at AC staff. If times are good and the company profitable then it is down to everyone including workers. If everything is bad and company losing millions it is all managements fault. Hardley fair?
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
flyyul
Posts: 4470
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: Air Canada Downgraded By Moody's

Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:16 pm

Each major Canadian city has certain international opportunities. Look at the amount of foreign carriers in each of YVR, YYC, YYZ and YUL. This is pretty impressive. In the USA, cities like STL/PIT/CLE/MCI don't even have european majors.

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