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audidudi
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Delta B763 Updates.

Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:57 pm

As the thread on DL's Fleet updates has been archived, I was wondering what the situation is with the next B763's to be upgraded. It looks like only the 76Ts have had the lie-flat seats installed so far; all that seems to be happening right now is the installation of winglets on the remaining aircraft. Any further info would be much appreciated as I fly a lot to NRT from SFO and I'm looking forward to flying on the new versions. I've already flown on the B764 incidentally so I'm familiar with the lie-flat seats but not the upgraded tables!
 
CV880
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting audidudi (Thread starter):
It looks like only the 76Ts have had the lie-flat seats installed so far; all that seems to be happening right now is the installation of winglets on the remaining aircraft.

Makes one wonder where the priorities are as there are still many longhaul 767 routes without the new equipment. You would think that by now (esp in the slow season), that at least twice as many would have had the retrofits.
 
timf
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:58 am

There have been about 3 aircraft at a time out of service for winglet installation during the winter. This work is being done separate from the interior mods, and the fuel savings appear to be taking precedent over product improvements. I suspect next fall and winter will see interior mods happening at an increased rate.
 
jetlanta
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:42 am

Quoting CV880 (Reply 1):
Makes one wonder where the priorities are as there are still many longhaul 767 routes without the new equipment. You would think that by now (esp in the slow season), that at least twice as many would have had the retrofits.

There are an awful lot of issues with interior component suppliers these days. Even Boeing and Airbus can't deliver planes on-time due to shortages from the seat manufacturers.

The priorities are fine, the realities are the problem.
 
audidudi
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:53 am

It just seems a shame that the winglet mods get done, while the interior mods aren't done at the same time, which ultimately involves all the aircraft going back to Asia again to be out of service for another few weeks. You would think that it would be cheaper to do both at the same time. It's probably due to the supplier issues mentioned in the last post.

[Edited 2012-04-08 18:54:59]
 
aviationbuff08
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:37 am

A complete interior retrofit like what DL is doing to the 767-300ER's takes nearly 35 days to complete. Your not only placing the Lie flat seats in Business, but your adding new seats with PTV in every seat. I believe that there is one currently out of service for the retrofit.
 
audidudi
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:09 am

And that's exactly how long it seems to take to install the winglets also, as every B763 that's gone to HAECO in HKG this year, since the 76Ts were completed, has been out of service for about five weeks!

[Edited 2012-04-08 22:12:38]

[Edited 2012-04-08 22:15:25]
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:12 am

Quoting aviationbuff08 (Reply 5):

I don't think people understand the work going into the 76 project..

The ENTIRE cabin is stripped for this particular mod. After-market pivot bins have to be installed. New side-walls are being put in. New PSUs. New galleys, new lavs and a complete re-do of the on-board IFE system and Business and coach seats. Not to mention adding adding the crew rest to the lower lobe (all ships won't get this though).

It's A LOT of work. Winglet extensions can be done in a little over week including testing.
What gets measured gets done.
 
questions
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:56 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 7):
The ENTIRE cabin is stripped for this particular mod. After-market pivot bins have to be installed. New side-walls are being put in. New PSUs. New galleys, new lavs and a complete re-do of the on-board IFE system and Business and coach seats. Not to mention adding adding the crew rest to the lower lobe (all ships won't get this though).

When is the ENTIRE fleet of 763s expected to be completed?

Well, on second thought... when will the 763s, 777s, 744s, and A330s, ALL expected to be completed?
 
panamair
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:17 am

Quoting aviationbuff08 (Reply 5):
Your not only placing the Lie flat seats in Business, but your adding new seats with PTV in every seat.

Though the first seven that have been completed already had PTVs in Y (these were the original 12+hour mission 76Ts and the only 763ERs in the fleet that already had nose-to-tail AVOD)...

Quoting aviationbuff08 (Reply 5):
I believe that there is one currently out of service for the retrofit.

Probably ship 1601 (N169DZ)? Ships 1606 (N16065) and 1501 (N1501P, ex-GF) also appear to be out, but both are probably getting winglets; 1601 already has winglets, IIRC.

In any case, there should be at least one or two more that will be done with the flatbed install by June 1 since there is at least one additional flatbed 763 route coming by June 1.

Quoting questions (Reply 8):
When is the ENTIRE fleet of 763s expected to be completed?

Last I heard was end of 2013.

Quoting questions (Reply 8):
Well, on second thought... when will the 763s, 777s, 744s, and A330s, ALL expected to be completed?

763s - see above
777s - all done already
764s - all done already
744s - by October 2012
A330s - by 2014 (probably won't start till 2013)
 
xdlx
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:48 am

Quoting timf (Reply 2):

From the planning perspective it does. The day of the flight Not so much.

I have flown recently on several shorthaul, ATL-JAX, ATL-CHS, ATL-MCO where the 738 or 757 has winglets!
Then you fly a ATL-PHX or JFK-MSP or LGA-FLL on a straight wing 757. I thought the savings where
produced on the longer sectors. If so why not keep the straight winged ones on the shorter segments?
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:59 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 7):

I don't think people understand the work going into the 76 project..

What's terrible is that it doesn't matter. Delta has been telling potential customers about the lie-flat seat and AVOD in coach for years and still can't deliver in most cases. It's like the guy that keeps promising his girl that he's going to get a job, going to stop beating her and going to get clean and then comes up short night after night, Sunday after Sunday and month after month to the point that when he finally gets to AA, she's already getting moving her stuff out. The delay in getting the promised product out to customers is such a joke that when it finally does happen, people won't care.
 
Max Q
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:13 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 11):
It's like the guy that keeps promising his girl that he's going to get a job, going to stop beating her and going to get clean and then comes up short night after night, Sunday after Sunday and month after month to the point that when he finally gets to AA, she's already getting moving her stuff out.

Er, ok,


Interesting comparison !!!!!!!
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
washingtonian
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting audidudi (Thread starter):
It looks like only the 76Ts have had the lie-flat seats installed so far

Has Delta been focusing these birds on certain routes so far?

Quoting panamair (Reply 9):
744s - by October 2012

The 744s are getting lie-flat up front and AVOD in the back, correct?
 
questions
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 11):
The delay in getting the promised product out to customers is such a joke that when it finally does happen, people won't care.

People won't care... because competitors will have moved on to the next generation of seats... and DLs lie flat product will then be what the dreaded recliners are today.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 14):

Agreed. The way US carriers wait and wait on capital improvements and then blame everything on cost is insane. I question whether or not how wise it was for Delta to keep flying old planes when everyone else was racking up 787 orders. By the time they move to order new aircraft, they'll be far down on the list. It remains to be seen if that will have a measurable financial impact, or if the decision will be purely aesthetic. Time will tell, I suppose.
 
SkyPriorityDTW
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):
The 744s are getting lie-flat up front and AVOD in the back, correct?

   Yes. Here is a video previewing them!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-iHS...yPDCNRjqSV7yA&index=1&feature=plcp
Keep Climbing...
 
BD338
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 11):
What's terrible is that it doesn't matter. Delta has been telling potential customers about the lie-flat seat and AVOD in coach for years and still can't deliver in most cases.

I'm disappointed it is taking so long. I have used NW/DL for most of the past 15 years TATL but recently I've found myself using UA (ex-CO 757 TATL service ) as the Y product is so much better, and the DL routes/timings I typically use are mostly 763 these days, so the choice is obvious to me. I did fly a DL 744 last year (for old times sake!) and boy was that thing ratty, glad they are getting a makeover as well. J isn't an option for me unless there is a really good sale. If it's going to take another couple of years for DL to get the work done, I doubt I'll be on a DL 763 in the near future.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 8):

everything is done by the end of 2013/beginning of 2014. AFAIK the 330s don't have a set in stone date yet. It will likely depend on the vendors on how fast they get done.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 11):
What's terrible is that it doesn't matter.

yes it does. Anyone with half a brain cell can figure out it is going to take time to do anything with out shutting the airline down for a long period of time. The problem is people not using, or having, common sense.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 11):
Delta has been telling potential customers about the lie-flat seat and AVOD in coach for years and still can't deliver in most cases.

no they haven't. Don't take the word of anet as the word of the Airlines. All it is going to do is get you into trouble. Ever official public statement has been end of 2013. That is the plan, has always been the plan....anything else was just rumors or bad info.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):
Has Delta been focusing these birds on certain routes so far?

Anything 12 hours or more get a 76T.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):
The 744s are getting lie-flat up front and AVOD in the back, correct?

yes. All of the international wide body fleet is getting nose to tail AVOD and lie-flats up front. They are getting slim back seats in Y and Delta is adding Y+ to birds that haven't gotten them yet. (which is think is very little to none on the international side)

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 15):

you mean like how people were saying they needed to order M88/757 replacement "years" ago and yet they, by and act of God according the the ever wise on a.net, are some how going to get 13 new 737s in 2013 with zero slots before hand.

It is AMAZING how binding contracts just some how....your know fallow the agreement.   Delta will have 787s, which they have orders and options for, coming when it is time to replace 767s.
 
panamair
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):
Has Delta been focusing these birds on certain routes so far?

Currently, they are doing LHR (from JFK/MIA), BRU (from ATL/JFK), and ACC (from JFK/ATL).

After MIA-LHR goes away mid-April, they will be doing MAD (from JFK/ATL), and JFK-FRA.

From June 1, they will also be doing JFK-CDG.

Quoting questions (Reply 14):
because competitors will have moved on to the next generation of seats... and DLs lie flat product will then be what the dreaded recliners are today.

Really? LH will be getting their first full-flat bed J this year only, and it will take another 4-5 years to get the rest of the intercontinental fleet redone - and it will still not be direct aisle access for every passenger...
AA will be getting their first full-flat bed J this fall, with no announced plan yet to redo the rest. AF and KL have not announced flatbed seats, UA is also taking their time with their 777 refurbishment, etc.
2013 is not that far away, and DL's 767 flatbed seats are the same ones as LX, AY (which incidentally has not redone all of their A330/340s in the new seats yet either), and SN (which just started redoing theirs) and all of them have certainly not any plans to replace those seats, so how will DL be far behind its competitors?

In many competitive markets this summer, DL will be all-flat-beds, which is either on par with or superior to the direct competition:

LHR: all-flat-bed; competitive with BA, VS; better than AA
FRA: all-flat-bed; superior to LH
MUC: all-flat-bed
BRU: all-flat-bed; competitive with UA, SN, 9W; superior to AA
MAD: all-flat-bed;
DXB: al flat-bed
JNB: all flat-bed
SYD: all flat-bed
SIN: all flat-bed
HKG: all flat-bed
etc...
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 7):
Quoting aviationbuff08 (Reply 5):


I don't think people understand the work going into the 76 project..

The ENTIRE cabin is stripped for this particular mod. After-market pivot bins have to be installed. New side-walls are being put in. New PSUs. New galleys, new lavs and a complete re-do of the on-board IFE system and Business and coach seats. Not to mention adding adding the crew rest to the lower lobe (all ships won't get this though).

It's A LOT of work. Winglet extensions can be done in a little over week including testing.

The modification being performed on the B767-300ER fleet adding the crew rest modules for pilots and flight attendants is by itself a major project. That involves an incredible amount of work to create access, route oxygen lines, smoke detection equipment and electrical power to parts of the airplane that never had them and then it all has to be certified and approved by the FAA. Alternate escape routes into the cabin have to be created as well. You can't just cut a hole in the floor of an airplane! There are always hydraulic and electrical lines, for instance, that have to be rerouted.

Several writers have mentioned that the winglets are taking precedence because of the huge amount of fuel they save. They are absolutely correct and DL has always kept strict control over capital improvements. It also does not help that DL has purchased 767's from several different sources with unique internal issues. For instance, the 76G fleet were all former Gulf Air aircraft.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:18 am

Quoting audidudi (Reply 6):
And that's exactly how long it seems to take to install the winglets also, as every B763 that's gone to HAECO in HKG this year, since the 76Ts were completed, has been out of service for about five weeks!

Take it from someone that knows (I appreciate the info you give to these boards) but 7 times out of 10, it isn't just winglets that's being done when they are out of service. Just looking at MTC pages, it's usually another issue that's worked on in conjunction with the blended winglets Like I said, they've gotten some done in about 10 days including testing.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 10):
I have flown recently on several shorthaul, ATL-JAX, ATL-CHS, ATL-MCO where the 738 or 757 has winglets!

Then you fly a ATL-PHX or JFK-MSP or LGA-FLL on a straight wing 757. I thought the savings where
produced on the longer sectors. If so why not keep the straight winged ones on the shorter segments?

It's called a/c routing. That wingeted ship will do JAX-ATL-LGA-ATL-PHX-ATL-LAX-SLC-ATL etc. etc. etc. Segregating the fleet to certain routes is VERY inefficient in itself and that's just not how things are done. Same with AVOD. One day ATL-SJO will be on a 75X and the next it's on a run of the mill PMDL 757 with overhead CRTs.
What gets measured gets done.
 
cokepopper
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:06 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 7):
Not to mention adding adding the crew rest to the lower lobe (all ships won't get this though).

Is this true? As it was initially communicated to inflight that eventually ALL 763's would have lower crew rest.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:13 am

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 22):
Is this true? As it was initially communicated to inflight that eventually ALL 763's would have lower crew rest.

The will only be added to the a/c needed to operate 12+ hour flights. That will include all 7 (current) 76Ts plus a few more frames. The mod adds a considerable amount of weight and reduces the cargo bulk bin to almost nothing. They won't do that for 50+ a/c when less than half will be used for such missions.
What gets measured gets done.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:57 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 18):
yes it does. Anyone with half a brain cell can figure out it is going to take time to do anything with out shutting the airline down for a long period of time. The problem is people not using, or having, common sense.

The problem is that people simply do not care about issues that are internal to Delta. Who cares if the winglets save more fuel, the crew rest areas are atrociously complicated or that each aircraft is being entirely gutted out? That's for Delta to sweep under the rug. The customer looks at DL, they look at BA, they look at HU, they look at EK and then they ask themselves if they want to sit in a recliner again. It's as simple as that. $5000 can buy a lie-flat seat almost anywhere you want to go, and you better be ready to compete or else you'll be getting another mother and a screaming brat for $800 a piece to cram in the back while accommodating a non-rev up front.
 
cokepopper
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:35 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 23):
The will only be added to the a/c needed to operate 12+ hour flights. That will include all 7 (current) 76Ts plus a few more frames. The mod adds a considerable amount of weight and reduces the cargo bulk bin to almost nothing. They won't do that for 50+ a/c when less than half will be used for such missions.

Just for the record this isn't what was told to us a couple of years ago. We were told all international
763's would get lower crew rest.
 
jetlanta
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:50 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 24):
The problem is that people simply do not care about issues that are internal to Delta. Who cares if the winglets save more fuel, the crew rest areas are atrociously complicated or that each aircraft is being entirely gutted out? That's for Delta to sweep under the rug. The customer looks at DL, they look at BA, they look at HU, they look at EK and then they ask themselves if they want to sit in a recliner again. It's as simple as that. $5000 can buy a lie-flat seat almost anywhere you want to go, and you better be ready to compete or else you'll be getting another mother and a screaming brat for $800 a piece to cram in the back while accommodating a non-rev up front.

Its not as simple as that. Customers also look at things like breadth of network, loyalty programs, corporate sales agreements, etc...

In fact, Delta's had an enormous amount of success in selling the premium cabin over the past two years due to a combination of factors. While there may be some disadvantages in certain categories, overall, few airlines in the world can compete with Delta's size, scale and scope. Same is true for UA.

Let's put it another way, HU needs a HELL of a lot better product than Delta to compete against Delta's advantages in other areas. The evidence suggests that they don't, and very few global carriers do these days.

If you doubt any of this, try pricing Delta premium cabin tickets in international markets and compare them to the competition. Delta prices are at the high end of the scale, and they are filling those cabins. You won't find many of those $5000 Business Class tickets on Delta these days.
 
audidudi
Topic Author
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:51 am

I have flown on at least one B763 which has a flight crew rest right opposite the business class port side lavatory, right behind the cockpit, and I was wondering how many aircraft are equipped like that. Why doesn't DL equip all the flight crew rests there? Do I assume correctly that the lower crew rest is solely for the cabin crew and is located right at the rear of the passenger cabin somewhere?
 
skipness1E
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RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:40 am

Is N173DN being re-activated? I remember she was stored in the old Deltaflot scheme then repainted, only to be parked up without entering service. Did they find something whilst painting that changed their minds?
 
justplanesmart
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Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 3:25 pm

RE: Delta B763 Updates.

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:42 am

Quoting audidudi (Thread starter):
all that seems to be happening right now is the installation of winglets on the remaining aircraft

I am not sure about that; there have been several 767-300 aircraft out of service of late for periods of four weeks or longer, and yet photos taken after their return to service show that winglets were not installed during the downtime. To wit:

N176DZ - out of service from December 25 until February 8, photographed March 21 without winglets.

N171DN - out of service from February 12 until March 17, photographed April 1 without winglets.

N153DL - out of service from February 22 until March 28, photographed March 28 without winglets.


In addition, the following have also had gaps of four weeks or more in their service:

N180DN - out of service from February 25 until April 5.

N16065 - out of service from March 9.
"So many planes; so little time..."

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