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kgaiflyer
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 32):
would fit in perfectly with the AA 757s...

Many of which are former TWA 757s (some -- believe it or not -- still with TWA's signature seat covers).
 
phxa340
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:10 pm

Agreed with the lack of IFE on US part is a complete bummer. I know most people have their Iphones and Ipads but I always enjoy the newer movies United or AA plays when there is nothing better to do on a flight back east etc. US' 757s are for the lack of a better word , dated. I flew them to HNL and they literally look and feel like they have been used for 50 years. I hear some of AA's 75s are like that too.
 
JFKPurser
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 43):
Virtually none. The Board now has very little influence over the outcome - it's in the hands of the court, the trustee(s), and the Unsecured Creditors Committee.

Exactly.

Quoting commavia (Reply 43):
Don't believe that is true. If USAirways is able to convince the Unsecured Creditors Committee of a superior plan, and the Committee decides to go in that direction, they can go around management and directly to the judge with the business plan.

US has offered their FAs a TA that is much more generous that AA's 1113 term sheet to it's FAs. US FAs recently rejected it claiming it was not generous enough in terms of pay to compensate for higher health care costs. If the US TA is any indication of the threshold US believes is necessary for overall costs and a profitable operation, you can bet what they propose to the APFA will look much brighter to the membership than what AA wants. US is currently approaching every union on the creditors committee with much better terms than AA. A smart move on their part -- and one that is far more attractive to AA's unions. It will be very interesting to see what US offer the AA pilots as a counteroffer to AA's 1113. You can bet your underwear it will be far more attractive to the pilots.

Quoting commavia (Reply 43):
Honestly, I think Horton probably does want to merge. But this all comes down to control now - Horton knows that if they merge in bankruptcy, it will be on terms far less favorable to AA and/or AA management than if the merger occurs post-bankruptcy. AMR has a list of things they want to maintain control over, but they won't be in a place to dictate terms while in Chapter 11.

Another reason why you will see AA's unions take very seriously any offer by US. There is less than zero trust among unions on the committee that Horton and and friends have the skills and the vision it will take to lead AA out of this hole. At this point, there is zero incentive to keep them in place -- and a growing desire across AA to see Horton and the entire despised management team go. The unions all want this management team out.

Sit back and relax, it's all about to get very interesting.

[Edited 2012-04-09 13:16:17]
 
DTWPurserBoy
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 50):
Many of which are former TWA 757s (some -- believe it or not -- still with TWA's signature seat covers).

DL took some of the former TW 757's, too. DL arranged their 75's with the 4 overwing escape hatches. NW and TW opted for the escape door just aft of the wing. And just to keep things interesting, NW also took delivery of some 75's with the overwing exits and the 757-300 (which, IMHO) is the most uncomfortable airplane ever built, has BOTH overwing and behind wing exits.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
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enilria
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:22 pm

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 30):
I see your reasoning, but I think that HP might just vote in favor.

I'd be shocked. I get the impression things are pretty sour between Sabre and AA. Also, as a RES system provider you are better off with more airlines, not less.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 30):
Who would have ever thought that SHARES could have slayed both Sabre and Apollo at AA and UA?

I can only guess that SHARES has the most easily modified core code.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 31):
Just what consumers need. Fewer options. Higher fares. Smaller jets.
I agree. This will be the mother of all mergers in terms of capacity reduction if it happens. PHX goes away completely and CLT probably shrinks 25%. PHL/JFK also present a problem.
The thought of having only 3 remaining legacy US carriers makes me cringe.

I completely agree, although a merger of DL with either US or AA is much worse.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 41):
Then I'd say US has an identity crisis. They offer full frills like any of the other majors, but somehow they aren't allowed to be on the same level because they have LCC blood?

The problem with US is that they have low costs that are going to start moving up and a network that is 1/2 LCC and 1/2 legacy. My guess is that this is how the airline's results are by hub:

DCA: 15-25% profit margin
PHL: 10-15% profit margin
CLT: 5-10% profit margin
PHX: 0% or less

The problem is that US labor costs are going to go up. The endless pilot mess will eventually be settled and it will result in higher costs as they turn their focus toward the company and away from each other. If they merge with AA, it is almost a certainty their costs will go up even faster. I do not believe that AA will ever be run in as lean a fashion as US. The hubs with the lowest profit margins are also the places where the AA brand will mean the least. PHX pricing is capped by WN and CLT is a low-yield, volume-driven Florida connect point. Both those hubs stand to lose from higher costs because a lot more routes at each will become marginal.

Quoting comair25 (Reply 47):

I just don't understand why AA would want this. Do they really want to be equally associated with US?

We don't know if management really supports a merger or not. I would advocate that from a network perspective it is not very valuable to them.
DCA: Very good for locking in AA frequent fliers in D.C. The crown jewel. No value to IAG.

Shuttle: A habitual loss leader. More valuable to AA than US, but AA inherits the same problem US had. Are they going to focus on NYC or PHL? They are duplicative from an int'l perspective and too close to each other. No value to IAG.

PHL: A very profitable hub for US. A nice pick-up for AA, but creates a NYC/PHL issue. PHL is not very interesting to IAG. They care deeply about JFK. A partial solution might be AA eliminating their domestic Eagle hub at LGA to use PHL instead, but that again orphans the Shuttle.

CLT: A marginally profitable, low-yield hub for US. Not very interesting to AA or IAG. Plugs a network hole, but it is a hole there is not very much rush to fill as the traffic base using the hub is largely leisure-oriented and not loyalty driven.

PHX: AA does not want to be sharing a hub with WN and PHX's limited unique catchment coupled with DFW's overlapping role puts PHX in a very bad situation in a combined network.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 46):
If US airways get a yes for a merger, that's a win for them.

If they get a no for a merger but drive up the price for a joint TPG/IAG bid, that's a win for US.

I'm not sure driving up the price is much of a win. To some extent, the more expensive they make the deal comes from the hide of labor and driving down labor costs further is really in nobody's long term interest (it just resets the Ch11 spiral)...least of all US who is likely to be seeing costs rise a lot from the artificial advantage they have now.
 
c680
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:23 pm

Nobody has mentioned this one yet, but:

*IF* US takes over AA, what are the chances HQ will move to PHX?

That would make the second major airline to leave Texas in one year. Yikes!
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
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IrishAyes
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting C680 (Reply 55):
*IF* US takes over AA, what are the chances HQ will move to PHX?

That would make the second major airline to leave Texas in one year. Yikes!

....because this is a hypothetical discussion and sadly that particular topic has been bashed to pulp in other threads, but bottom line is that the likelihood that DFW will lose the HQ title is HIGHLY improbable, regardless of the outcome. The facilities and business ties are MUCH greater and stronger in Dallas, as well as subject to friendlier State laws and lower costs of operations, relative to any other hub location possibility out there if US and AA were to merge. DFW has the jack of all trades and there is no way any other option would be able to trump its advantages.

[Edited 2012-04-09 13:43:10]
 
ripcordd
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:44 pm

I really dont think the unions will be against such a merger it will all be clear when the judge decides on their contracts if they have get better contracts than US in BK then they will vote no if the US current contracts are better than what AA gets then the union will go for esp if AA's managment gets tossed out.. As far as Eagle goes I see them splitting from AMR all together and then they will make Eagle bid on flying like everyone else.
 
tommy767
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 49):
Didn't you say that they didn't offer full frills? That's the gist I got out of your previous post:

I should have been more specific. They offer *half assed* frills compared to the other majors. I'll give them credit, they offer envoy class, lounges, first class etc -- but it's all weak compared to the other star carriers.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 50):
Many of which are former TWA 757s (some -- believe it or not -- still with TWA's signature seat covers).

I don't think US has any former TWA 757s. They went to DL and upgraded for TATL standards. But US might still have some ex-HP 757s which are definitely from the 1980s.

Quoting enilria (Reply 54):
CLT: 5-10% profit margin

Yes CLT sees rock bottom fares but I thought it was super profitable for US because of business traffic?

Quoting C680 (Reply 55):
That would make the second major airline to leave Texas in one year. Yikes!

I think they are staying in DFW. US's HQ in Tempe is by all means, irrelevant.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
ckfred
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 20):
#7 FOR. Bound to whoever offers the best pension solution. That is probably US because AA is trying to ignore them and it won't take much for US to establish a better relationship. Plus, it puts pressure on AA to accept their demands.

Would US have any interest in picking up the pension obligations of AA? I thought that between the bankruptcies of US, they had shed their pension plans.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 22):
Grow the cornerstones by 20% with mainline flying when they have:

1. An ancient fleet of MD 80s that need to be shed in BK
2. Not enough deliveries to cover what they currently have + any growth, let alone 20% growth

Remember that AA has 460 aircraft on order from the Boeing/Airbus order of last summer (plus options), in addition to the prior order for 738s. Between the 100 738s from the NG line and the 100 738s from the MAX line, that pretty much covers the MD-80 fleet.

Further, a lot of pundits argue that the MD-80s is too much aircraft for a lot of routes that AA flies. It needs aircraft larger than the CRJ700 (currently at 66 seats) and the MD-80 at 140 seats. The larger Embrears 170/175 and 190/195 and the A319 fill that space nicely.
 
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einsteinboricua
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:59 pm

Nothing new, really.

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Then the question becomes, who eats who to leave us with two...?

I think a balance of three (four?) giants will be quite comfortable with each carrier marking their territory and not daring to make a move that might undermine them.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Finally, there is the Justice Department, which must sign off on the merger. I don't think what time is left for the Obama Administration will want to take sides in a union against union dispute in an election year. The next administastion may not be comfortable with it either.

People thought that the DL/NW merger HAD to happen because the incoming Democrat administration would not be so lenient to approve mergers. Lo and behold, WN/FL and UA/CO merged.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 18):
Quoting washingtonian (Reply 7):
I thought the F/As still fly separate lfights? Or is that just the pilots who stick to East and West?

I think they can fly on any aircraft, BUT they cannot mix up the crews. i.e. you cannot have two East F/A working with a West F/A.

Wasn't that each crew flies in their previous airline's own metal? Not only do West pilots fly on an all West airplane with an all West crew, they also only fly certain designated flights. I think flights 700+ are East while 1-699 are West.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 50):
Many of which are former TWA 757s (some -- believe it or not -- still with TWA's signature seat covers).

Didn't AA get rid of the TWA 757s due to engine incompatibility? TWA's 757s were made with PW engines...or did they had a mixture?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
ckfred
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 60):
Didn't AA get rid of the TWA 757s due to engine incompatibility? TWA's 757s were made with PW engines...or did they had a mixture?

TWA 757s had a P&W engine. Also, every switch in the cockpit threw the opposite direction as the switches in AA cockpits. So, if an AA switch threw down or to the right, the same switch in a TWA plan threw up or to the left. Redoing every switch would have been very expensive.
 
AADC10
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:08 pm

Don't forget that US CEO Doug Parker started out at AA under Robert Crandall. I am sure that he would like nothing better than taking over AA, even if it does not make a tremendous amount of sense.
 
phxa340
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 54):

IF and obviously it is a big IF they merge , everyone is saying PHX is toast. But I haven't heard anyone suggest an alternate for west coast traffic. LAX has slots but no more gates. DFW has been proposed but that is a 2.5 hour flight east almost , so not a viable alternative. Yes, WN has a large presence but when people say US can't compete against them I just don't believe that. WN's costs are getting higher , US has a F/C and international presence and a very loyal following in PHX from the days of HP plus they travel into a lot smaller areas WN doesn't go. I don't think PHX is toast at all , maybe it will be corrected with a few flights going to LAX and others going to DFW.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 58):

I don't think US has any former TWA 757s. They went to DL and upgraded for TATL standards. But US might still have some ex-HP 757s which are definitely from the 1980s.

Airfleets seem to agree with this.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 61):
Also, every switch in the cockpit threw the opposite direction as the switches in AA cockpits. So, if an AA switch threw down or to the right, the same switch in a TWA plan threw up or to the left. Redoing every switch would have been very expensive.

Um... What??!! Switches have a set pattern that they Must legally adhere to. For example, you will not see a switch that turns something "off" in the up position, extend the landing gear in the "up" position or has that the middle somehow isn't a neutral setting, etc... Perhaps there are some minor FADEC or EICAS differences, but I think the idea that "every" switch is somehow different is pretty implausible. I'm calling Urban Legend on that one.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
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EPA001
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 2):

Good grief. It seems not that long ago that US Airways was the runt of the litter, far behind American, United, Delta, Northwest and Continental. Now they stand to become one of the three survivors. I would never have put money on that.

To make predictions in aviation business is always difficult. I also would never have expected this possible outcome.

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Then the question becomes, who eats who to leave us with two...?   

That is the million Dollar question!  .
 
HPRamper
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:25 pm

Quoting PhxA340 (Reply 63):
IF and obviously it is a big IF they merge , everyone is saying PHX is toast. But I haven't heard anyone suggest an alternate for west coast traffic. LAX has slots but no more gates. DFW has been proposed but that is a 2.5 hour flight east almost , so not a viable alternative. Yes, WN has a large presence but when people say US can't compete against them I just don't believe that. WN's costs are getting higher , US has a F/C and international presence and a very loyal following in PHX from the days of HP plus they travel into a lot smaller areas WN doesn't go. I don't think PHX is toast at all , maybe it will be corrected with a few flights going to LAX and others going to DFW.

I think it's more likely that WN continues to de-emphasize PHX in favor of DEN - and that it will only accelerate when Wright goes away. Just my opinion. US is already bigger than WN in PHX and is doing just fine against them there. DFW simply can't supplant PHX. Too many routes like SLC-ELP, SAN-DEN, PDX-TUS out there (and no, LAX ain't gonna be the place to connect).
 
EricR
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 54):
My guess is that this is how the airline's results are by hub:

DCA: 15-25% profit margin
PHL: 10-15% profit margin
CLT: 5-10% profit margin
PHX: 0% or less

This order is not accurate. According to Scott Kirby, CLT and DCA are the most profitable, and PHX & PHL are middle of the pack. Also, considering US has margins in the single digits, I think it would be a stretch to believe any of their hubs have profit margins in upper teens or low 20% range.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11468...se-for-a-amrus-airways-merger.html
 
HPRamper
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:37 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 67):
This order is not accurate. According to Scott Kirby, CLT and DCA are the most profitable, and PHX & PHL are middle of the pack. Also, considering US has margins in the single digits, I think it would be a stretch to believe any of their hubs have profit margins in upper teens or low 20% range.

Don't you remember enilria said Kirby was lying about that order?  
 
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OzarkD9S
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:04 pm

Quoting PhxA340 (Reply 63):


IF and obviously it is a big IF they merge , everyone is saying PHX is toast. But I haven't heard anyone suggest an alternate for west coast traffic. LAX has slots but no more gates.

I don't see PHX as toast vs. LAX as some are touting either. They would both have a big role to play in a combined AA/US.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 9):


I think you can use the word "officially" when it has been announced by either US or AA. Until then it is just specualation

Which is why I put the word "officially" in quotes. No announcement has been made of course, but it's a confirmation of sorts of what has been speculated on here for months.
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer's Night Dream
 
flyguy89
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:38 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 67):

This order is not accurate. According to Scott Kirby, CLT and DCA are the most profitable, and PHX & PHL are middle of the pack

It's very possible that CLT is at the top of US hubs in profitability but near the bottom in terms of profit margin...there's higher volume at CLT.
 
B757Forever
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:38 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 61):
Also, every switch in the cockpit threw the opposite direction as the switches in AA cockpits. So, if an AA switch threw down or to the right, the same switch in a TWA plan threw up or to the left. Redoing every switch would have been very expensive.

With the exception of the landing light switches, most every switch in a 757 cockpit is a Korry style push button switch. Push on, push off.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
FX1816
Posts: 479
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 50):
Quoting N62NA (Reply 32):would fit in perfectly with the AA 757s...
Many of which are former TWA 757s (some -- believe it or not -- still with TWA's signature seat covers).

If you mean that US has ex TWA 752's that is completely untrue. The TWA 752's were P&W powered while US has only operated RR powered ones. DL took most of the ex TWA 752's off of AA's hands.

FX1816
 
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flashmeister
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:05 am

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 64):
Um... What??!! Switches have a set pattern that they Must legally adhere to. For example, you will not see a switch that turns something "off" in the up position, extend the landing gear in the "up" position or has that the middle somehow isn't a neutral setting, etc... Perhaps there are some minor FADEC or EICAS differences, but I think the idea that "every" switch is somehow different is pretty implausible. I'm calling Urban Legend on that one.

Nope, it's true. Lots of documentation around to prove this one. For starters, see this earlier thread: TW's Cockpit Switches (by Timz Aug 3 2001 in Tech Ops)

The switches in TWA cockpits (all models, not just the 757s), were up/back for "on" and down/forward for "off". Just like in your house, but opposite of the standard.

Google TWA cockpit switches and see for yourself.
 
FX1816
Posts: 479
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:28 am

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 73):
Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 64):Um... What??!! Switches have a set pattern that they Must legally adhere to. For example, you will not see a switch that turns something "off" in the up position, extend the landing gear in the "up" position or has that the middle somehow isn't a neutral setting, etc... Perhaps there are some minor FADEC or EICAS differences, but I think the idea that "every" switch is somehow different is pretty implausible. I'm calling Urban Legend on that one.
Nope, it's true. Lots of documentation around to prove this one. For starters, see this earlier thread: TW's Cockpit Switches (by Timz Aug 3 2001 in Tech Ops)

The switches in TWA cockpits (all models, not just the 757s), were up/back for "on" and down/forward for "off". Just like in your house, but opposite of the standard.

Google TWA cockpit switches and see for yourself.

You are totally right. I remember back in the day working with Emery, all of those DC8's had very different switch lay outs which made them completely different from eachother. The only ones that were ok were the few ex UAL ones and the few ex FT ones. At least those were similarly laid out.

FX1816
 
B757Forever
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 73):
The switches in TWA cockpits (all models, not just the 757s), were up/back for "on" and down/forward for "off". Just like in your house, but opposite of the standard.

That is not possible when all 757 aircraft have Korry style push on, push off switches. Maybe on some Douglas products?
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
crAAzy
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:41 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
This is nothing new. This is the same story that has been out for over a week, with no new information that I could see. USAirways wants to merge with AA (nothing new there), and they have begun talking to members of the creditors committee (again, nothing new as of a week ago). USAirways is no more "officially" after an AA merger now than they have been for at least several weeks.

Agreed. Are we going to see a new thread opened up on the topic every week?

Maybe we should have just one big offical US/AA merger speculation thread until the airlines officially make an announcement that it is going to happen ... LOL!
 
boeing773er
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:07 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 54):

I don't understand why you put your post in terms of AA would win with this, that and the other thing.

AA isn't going to be the one taking over, it is going to be US.

Now onto my personal thoughts of this merger:

I personally believe all of US's hubs will stay around once the merger goes through. You wanna know why? Because Doug Parker would more than likely be in control of this airline. Sure everyone thinks PHX is a low-yielding, third class city, but it isn't. It actually provides US with an opportunity to get away from the rest of the legacy carriers. Yes, there is WN but they only compete marginally to what US offers. Now in the future once WN goes international they may be more of a threat. But right now PHX is a great thing for US, and will probably stay around.
Work Hard, Fly Right.
 
panam330
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:19 am

I hope this doesn't happen. Two brands that I'd prefer remain separate, selfishly. I like US for cheap, quick flights with dozens of options up and down the east coast (and the ability to earn MileagePlus miles!) and I want it to stay that way!  
 
AAIL86
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:34 am

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 77):
Doug Parker would more than likely be in control of this airline.

We don't know who would be calling the shots in this hypothetical AA/US merger. But even if it is Doug Parker, don't forget he started his career in the halls of Crandall's AA. So I don't buy this idea that DP wants to destroy the AA brand at all. In fact - he's well aware the AA brand is far more valuable then the US Airways brand ( no offense to all my family in North Carolina who are always flying US   ) and is the only choice going forward in a merger.

[Edited 2012-04-09 18:51:24]
" Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness ... Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. ” - Mark Twain, 1869
 
ldvaviation
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 76):
Agreed. Are we going to see a new thread opened up on the topic every week?

Maybe we should have just one big offical US/AA merger speculation thread until the airlines officially make an announcement that it is going to happen ... LOL!

You mean they haven't merged yet? I thought it was a done deal and the only question mark was how they would run their operations at LAX. [End sarcasm.]
 
boeing773er
Posts: 529
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:00 am

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 79):

But the branding has no effect on who really runs the airline, I mean look at when HP-US merged. HP merged/bought US, US had the better name but US is the brand still around today.

I'm not exactly sure Doug would be in charge, but you have to remember his airline is making a profit and isn't running into BK like Horton's is. But in retrospect Horton wasn't the CEO of AA when it went into BK but he was a rather high up position in the American Airlines Group.
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YYZAMS
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:26 am

WOW! Who knew? Another legacy down. WHere will the headquarters be?

and when will this site offer RSS feeds so I can read this . Probably not going to resubscribe due to that reason alone.
 
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lightsaber
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:06 am

I'm looking for more solid information. IMHO, US is too weak to take on digesting AA. In my opinion, one of the reasons AA entered BK with cash was to come out of BK as AA.

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 29):
Where do I get my "Keep AA my AA" lanyard and button?

  

I cannot believe I read every comment on this thread... too little new information. Almost as bad as a DL/NW 717 thread.   

Lightsaber
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F9Animal
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:24 am

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 4):
US came VERY CLOSE to going out of business in 2004 before they merged with HP. HP basically took over US, with keeping the US name and color scheme.

While I don't ever fly US (no point when United is an all around better airline) they are a notch below DL, AA, and UA. However over the last few years the gap in quality has narrowed.

It boggles my mind how Parker made a nearly gone company into a profitable well run airline. Not to mention how he got HP where it was. If a merger did happen with AA, I am sure AA name will stay. Can Parker work a miracle with AA and turn it around with a combined US? If you asked me the question after the US/HP merger ink dried, I would have laughed my tail off. Ask me today, and I could say with confidence that Parker could do it. I am still in shock that AA went Chapter 11. I never thought it would happen.
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Longhornmaniac
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 82):
WHere will the headquarters be?

DFW. No question.

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 81):
you have to remember his airline is making a profit and isn't running into BK like Horton's is.

Sure, after going through two rounds of bankruptcy. US was considerably more "on the brink" then than AA is now. Let's not compare apples to oranges here.

Cheers,
Cameron
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PHX787
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:44 am

Oh boy, are we all having a field day with this one   
Where to start:

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 1):
This shotgun wedding doesn't seem to me like it will be a smoothe situation like United (if you call that smooth) or Delta. They haven't resolved the issues with the US/HP merger yet.

Would you honestly call the transition with DL/NW smooth?! That was so rocky for all of the regional carriers involved. Nobody knew who was safe, and who was going to be cut. There were threats of strikes/direct action all over the board during the transition. I personally was about to drop my SkyMiles until DL got all of this straightened out.

About the FOR/AGAINST the mergers:

Quoting enilria (Reply 20):
4) Manufacturers and Traders Trust Co., based in Baltimore, Md.
5) Wilmington Trust Co., based in Wilmington, Del.
6) The Bank of New York Mellon, based in New York.
Quoting enilria (Reply 20):
#4/5/6 SPLIT. Aircraft lessors. Newer A/C holders will probably side with management, but for holders of the older A/C (that's most of the leased A/C) they will probably side with US because most have an existing relationship with US and they know AA is going to shaft them.

What makes you think that AA is going to shaft them? What I don't understand is why everybody on here believes that legacy carriers being BOUGHT OUT by a semi-legacy means that every single bone from the legacy remains. What the smart move should be is to try and weed out the legacy parts which hold the problem airline back and introduce more of the good parts of both airlines, which is what I hope these creditors are for.

Quoting enilria (Reply 20):
9) Boeing Capital Corp., based in Renton, Wash.
Quoting enilria (Reply 20):
#9 FOR. Boeing will go with whatever makes it most likely that their existing orders will be taken. I'd guess that is going with management.

WHY do you think Boeing would be for this? You know how much of an Airbus-lover Doug Parker is, and I'm certain he'll be CEO of the US/AA merger once finished. I'm pretty sure you'll see a lot more Airbuses painted in whatever livery this merger is going to be in.

Quoting enilria (Reply 54):
My guess is that this is how the airline's results are by hub:

DCA: 15-25% profit margin
PHL: 10-15% profit margin
CLT: 5-10% profit margin
PHX: 0% or less

The problem is that US labor costs are going to go up. The endless pilot mess will eventually be settled and it will result in higher costs as they turn their focus toward the company and away from each other. If they merge with AA, it is almost a certainty their costs will go up even faster. I do not believe that AA will ever be run in as lean a fashion as US. The hubs with the lowest profit margins are also the places where the AA brand will mean the least. PHX pricing is capped by WN and CLT is a low-yield, volume-driven Florida connect point. Both those hubs stand to lose from higher costs because a lot more routes at each will become marginal.

I agree with the labor costs but at the same time, if proper management and purchasing techniques are put into place, airlines can handle it. That's why I'm not sure why you're placing such a low margin on PHX and CLT. This is directly implying you expect both these hubs to phase out post-merger and everybody knows that these hubs have been highly successful for US.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 85):
Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 82):
WHere will the headquarters be?

DFW. No question.

We all said the same thing about the US merger being hq'd in the east. Look where US Airways is in now. Good ol' Tempe Arizona, down the street from my apartment. It brings up my whole "legacy" thing. Why would Doug want to move out of Tempe, where everything is relatively cheaper?

You guys really know how to start a firestorm in the forums.  
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laxboeingman
Posts: 467
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:43 am

I think we all saw this coming. This will be very interesting and for the airlines' sake, I hope it will work out. This puts aviation on a whole different path. Are we going to assume it will be US management?

Thank you,

laxboeingman
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Burkhard
Posts: 1916
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:07 am

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Then the question becomes, who eats who to leave us with two...?

I think that the international fact that there are three alliances makes it natural that there are three network carriers in the US.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
For the next administration, if Airbus money is involved, I just don't see them wanting to approve a merger that will hurt Boeing aircraft sales.

What makes me wonder is that the US merger is the only option discussed here for AA future. Given the current cost structure, the only viable alternative I see for AA is to cease operation, and I doubt all unions and all management wants to go that way.
 
LAXdude1023
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:39 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 86):

It's not nearly the same thing.

The facilities AA has at DFW are so much larger and better than anything US has in Arizona. DFW simply is more equipped to run a huge airline like a combined AA/US than PHX. DFW and PHX have the same cost of operating, so that isn't an issue.

Don't forget also that if DP was successful at taking over DL, he was going to move the HQ to ATL.
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usairways85
Posts: 4215
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:55 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 67):
This order is not accurate. According to Scott Kirby, CLT and DCA are the most profitable, and PHX & PHL are middle of the pack. Also, considering US has margins in the single digits, I think it would be a stretch to believe any of their hubs have profit margins in upper teens or low 20% range.

Take the article with a grain of salt.

Quoting rampart (Reply 37):
A very big, and successful, domestic airline does not require full frills. That's why we have WN. My perception is that US, with it's LCC heritage in HP, fills a service gap between WN and the other legacies... while also flying international, much more so than WN, but less than DL or UA. They use "LCC" as a stock ticker for a reason. (Forget for the moment that all the other legacies are converging on that lower service category, except for the elite few at the front of the plane, for which all airlines are tripping over themselves to re-invent Sleeper Transport.)
Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 41):
Then I'd say US has an identity crisis. They offer full frills like any of the other majors, but somehow they aren't allowed to be on the same level because they have LCC blood?

I'd agree that US has an identity crisis. When they came up with the LCC idea they slashed IFE, reduced F cabins, not sure when the whole soda debacle was. Now I think they have realized that to compete with DL/UA/AA they need those services hence why we saw the Wifi announcement and the installation of F in the bigger RJ's. I commend US on these moves but they seem to be making reactionary moves as opposed to being proactive.
 
FutureFO
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:14 pm

Last week the head of the APA was actually in PHX to meet with US and its USAPA. That is generally the signalling of the start of something big.
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PHX787
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 89):
It's not nearly the same thing.

The facilities AA has at DFW are so much larger and better than anything US has in Arizona. DFW simply is more equipped to run a huge airline like a combined AA/US than PHX. DFW and PHX have the same cost of operating, so that isn't an issue.

Don't forget also that if DP was successful at taking over DL, he was going to move the HQ to ATL.

Was Doug the CEO of US Airways Pre-merger with HP? I don't remember.

At the same time though, when a merger like this happens, how can the employees based here in PHX have their job security?
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boberito6589
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:21 pm

Doug was CEO of HP pre merger
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5144
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:48 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 92):
At the same time though, when a merger like this happens, how can the employees based here in PHX have their job security?

Probably having the option of either moving to DFW with their same position, offered a different position that stays at PHX, or an early retirement.
 
PHX787
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:08 am

Not to change gears too quickly, but this was bugging my mind back when US tried to take over DL. I was too young to understand much back then, but what kept DL from being taken over? Do you think that the same could happen with AA?
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dlramp4life
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:19 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 95):

Not to change gears too quickly, but this was bugging my mind back when US tried to take over DL. I was too young to understand much back then, but what kept DL from being taken over? Do you think that the same could happen with AA?

From Wikipedia:

Quote:
The end of 2006 saw US Airways making a bid for competitor Delta Air Lines, which opposed this bid, treating it as a hostile takeover by US Airways. The final bid was valued at $10 billion but was withdrawn on January 31, 2007, since US Airways failed to secure backing from Delta's creditors. The airline has stated that it will no longer pursue a possible takeover of Delta.
http://www.deltava.org/gallery/dva/0x3486.jpg
 
B757Forever
Posts: 916
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 95):
ut what kept DL from being taken over?

I can't help but think that Boeing, being one of DLs largest creditors, would not back the offer.
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b727fa
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US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:28 pm

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 48):

Quoting ckfred (Reply 17):
...and the APFA didn't create a fence around the STL hub the way the APA did for TWA pilots.

No, actually there was a fence. As long a s TW FAs stayed at STL, they kept their relative seniority at STL. If an AA FA wanted to transfer into STL, their bidding seniority was artificially adjusted relative to the TWA list. If a TW FA transferred out of STL, their biding seniority would have been relative to the date of their addition to the AA seniority list. TW FAs would have essentially retained what they had under the old TW.

Well, until AA opened a full-on AMR base. They closed the TWA base in STL on June 30 and the AMR base was opened at 0001 July 1st...with proffered AMR FA's in the positions and the "fence" came a'cumblin' down.
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Atlwest1
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:11 am

US 'Officially' after AA Merger

Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting B757forever (Reply 97):
I can't help but think that Boeing, being one of DLs largest creditors, would not back the offer.

True true

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 95):
but what kept DL from being taken over?

Also I think one of the biggest reasons is that the CEO who was a major shareholder in Delta at the time not only did a fantastic job at PR and rallying the employees and passengers against it. He literally used the full force of his connections and political connections not to mention he used the connections of a very powerful city and state to fend off the US Airways attack. I honestly think he was one of the most effective and powerful airline CEOs ever.
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