YVRFlyer
Topic Author
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:19 am

Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:44 am

Wow, I guess some passengers get irritated easily! If people tried this here on our side of the pond, they'd likely all be shot or sent off to Uncle Sam's Cuban Beach Resort.

In short, the passengers were delayed and demanded compensation for their inconvenience. When the airline didn't cough up, they ran out onto the tarmac and blocked an EY plane from reaching the terminal.

Angry passengers protest flight delay by storming Pudong tarmac

Amazingly, the passengers received "administrative punishments" which essentially means fines.

Passengers punished for halting plane at Pudong airport

So has anyone ever had an experience like this elsewhere, where the passengers protest and create a safety issue on the tarmac?
YVRFlyer
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:44 am

Well, the passengers who broke security at PVG must be punished. A fine depending on the personal income x number of days should be OK. However, airport officials in charge of securiity should be fired, since there must be precautions in place that no one except authorized persons can enter the tarmac. Very simple. Doors must be secured and even if pax make it outside they must be apprehended within a minute and never be able to reach a taxi way.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:46 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
Very simple. Doors must be secured and even if pax make it outside they must be apprehended within a minute and never be able to reach a taxi way.

Nice theory. Then there is reality.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Cerecl
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:22 am

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:48 pm

Quoting YVRFlyer (Thread starter):
So has anyone ever had an experience like this elsewhere, where the passengers protest and create a safety issue on the tarmac?

Sadly the same thing happened in CAN only a few days later.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
Doors must be secured and even if pax make it outside they must be apprehended within a minute and never be able to reach a taxi way.

Airports are not manned by special forces. If twenty-odd people want to do something stupid they would not be stopped in a minute. This is the first time this kind of incident occured. No one was prepared for this level of stupidity.

Quoting YVRFlyer (Thread starter):
Amazingly, the passengers received "administrative punishments" which essentially means fines.

They also received ¥1000 “compensation".
Airlines were not able to communicate effectively about delays and a small minority of passengers have an inflated sense of entitlement and scant regard of law. This is fanned by the current policy, which restricts/limits law-enforcement action on in an attempt to maintain "stability" and minimise conflict. I can see similar incidents getting more frequent before the government cracks down on this kind of behaviour which makes me ashamed of my ex-patriots.
Fokker-100 SAAB 340 Q400 E190 717 737 738 763ER 787-8 772 77E 773 77W 747-400 747-400ER A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A346 A359 A380
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 3):
Airports are not manned by special forces. If twenty-odd people want to do something stupid they would not be stopped in a minute. This is the first time this kind of incident occured. No one was prepared for this level of stupidity.

In Germany, airports are protected by German border police and in addition to that, the airport owners have their own security which likely would be at the site first. . Besides that doors are protected electonically and raise instant alarm if opened by force. Not only accoustic but in the control centre as well. That is exactly the kind of preparation which is needed and required by law.



Quoting cmf (Reply 2):
Nice theory. Then there is reality.

and that is m not a theory, that is reality.

What happened at PVG is a severe breach of security for whoich there is no excuse. How can it be justified that pax are screened, as well as cargo which normally cannot be tampered with, all at great expense for the public and shippers and then an airport operator offers open house parties?
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
ATLFlyer323
Posts: 512
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:01 am

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:07 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
and that is m not a theory, that is reality.

I agree with you 100%! You would think they would have alarms on all these doors in case they were opened by someone who does not have the clearance. I personally think an immediate ground stop should be put in place until the situation is resolved.

Just my opinion though.

-ATLFlyer323
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
User avatar
legacyins
Posts: 1960
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:11 pm

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:56 pm

As I live in China and fly the PVG/SHA-PEK route every other week, this does not surprise me. Any type of weather delay will back things up for hours.

When I take a trip back to the US and people ask me how are things in China, I tell them they will probably overtake the US economically in twenty five years but it will take at least a hundred years for the people to get up to western standards.

Just another day.
 
B2468
Posts: 123
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:54 pm

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:30 pm

I saw this story, and the one about CAN on the news here...I am surprised it took so long to get onto A.net. A.nutters are usually right on top of this stuff (I don't work in the aviation industry, so I don't consider myself a true A.nutter).

This kind of situation in China can be unpredictable. Chinese are rarely quick to extraordinary anger (harmonious society and all that). Even altercations on the streets rarely escalate beyond yelling and maybe some shoving...more extreme actions in a fit of anger are relatively uncommon. I actually sincerely admire Chinese patience...if things worked in the USA the way they work here...well, I don't even want to contemplate the results....

However, when Chinese are pushed to the point of open anger, things can get unpredictable really quickly (I remember a few years ago pax who were on a canceled or delayed flight trashed a MU airport office), and this sounds like one of these situations where pax reached the boiling point, and turned to an extreme method of expressing anger. I don't find it surprising in the least that the security response was kind of muddled in this situation. In China, people respond they way they have been told to...improvisation is frowned upon. Very rarely do police or security do anything they have not been specifically instructed to do by their superiors (again, harmonious society).

Of course, exiting an aircraft without crew orders, and then proceeding onto active ramps and taxiways is unbelievably dangerous for those who are not properly trained or escorted, and these pax put themselves in extreme danger. Given how China operates, I am sure there are some CAAC and government officials in some back room working out some new rules and procedures to handle such an event in the future (unfortunately, they will probably only develop procedures for this specific kind of event, and not implement a more comprehensive plan to deal with the various kinds of actions pax might take in an angry situation).

This is the price China pays for having a "harmonious society". Things don't crack often, but when they do, they crack big.

[Edited 2012-04-15 10:37:46]
CNC/DH4/ERJ/306/310/319/320/332/333/343/346/388/72S/731/732/733/734/73G/738/741/744/74E/752/762/763/77E/77W/D95/D1C/M82
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:59 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
and that is m not a theory, that is reality.

No it is not. Let's look at your statement again.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
Doors must be secured and even if pax make it outside they must be apprehended within a minute and never be able to reach a taxi way.
Doors must be secured. Yes, but the question is to what degree. You're not going to have armed guards with machine guns at each door. Even if you did it would not be accepted to use them just because someone walks out the wrong door.

Must be apprehended within a minute.Good luck with that. You're unlikely to have guards at the site within a minute. Much less have them apprehended 20 people running away.

never be able to reach a taxi way Again, good luck. You're unlikely to be able to stop a single person getting out, much less a group.

Quoting atlflyer323 (Reply 5):
I personally think an immediate ground stop should be put in place until the situation is resolved.

This is along the lines of what will happen. Then they will be corralled and dealt with. And with 20 people it will take much more than 1 minute. Heck the search to make sure no-one is left may take hours. Look at when terminals are emptied because they think someone passed secuity.

Reality is that we are not prepared to put in place and pay for the level of security suggested and that is why it is theory. Reality is that we accepted a lower level because we can keep the number of incidents to an acceptable level and deal with the consequences the few times something more extreme happens.

It is not different from how airplanes, cars, buildings and everything else are built to handle most situations but we know there will be incidents and even catastrophic failures. We accept it because the costs of making it more secure is much more than the return.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4290
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:35 pm

Haha - maybe, I am the only one who thinks this is great. Good to see people in some parts of the world stand up to organizations and not be docile like parts of the West have become  .

Saludos,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
wdleiser
Posts: 865
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:32 am

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
In Germany, airports are protected by German border police and in addition to that, the airport owners have their own security which likely would be at the site first. . Besides that doors are protected electonically and raise instant alarm if opened by force. Not only accoustic but in the control centre as well. That is exactly the kind of preparation which is needed and required by law.

Lets see, I want to go out on the tarmac and raise hell, I open the door willingly that says "Authorized Use Only" knowing very well what will happen once i open the door. But then the alarm sounds.... so I immediately stop my deliberate action against authority because alarms are scary?

Get real, alarms do not immobilize people like a human being does. Setting off the alarm means a guard, who is not at the door, (because if they were, they would have stopped the perpetrator from opening the door to begin with) has to get up, figure out which door was opened(this is what the security room is for), then they must run to that door. I will bet you 1000 dollars that a person that was purposely trying to cause havoc is not going to stay at the door they open, and rather will continue running. So now the guards will have to continue chasing after the perp. So yes, it can take well over a minute even at the nicest most efficiently ran German Flughaffens
 
ZKOJH
Posts: 1500
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:51 am

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:35 pm

it seems people in China are finally understanding what the rest of the world go through when they have to wait on the tarmac,

Only last night I was reading the news about a story involving a British PAX who was on a flight from PVG to somewhere and she got so upset at being delayed - (it was just over an hour) that she smashed the cabin window!! well the inner part with her hand,

thus then delaying everyone else, why they took the aircraft out of service and find another one - she ended up getting a silly fine of 2,270 ish RMB and a right telling off from the airline, lucky to say it wasn't any of the big names we know off.!

it made such a laugh reading that it even made it onto the Chinese social networking sites!
Air New Zealand ~ dreams of flying
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:36 am

It is always amazing to read how Americans, from the country that is "at war with terrorism", find it perfectly alright that people can break secured doors and have a little party on the tarmac. The same country that imposes on the rest of the world often ridiculous security requirements. Even employees with authorization to enter the secured area are inspected each time they go in, often 5 or 6 times a day through their shift. Air cargo, which never ever has been tampered with, has to undergo screenings. But brreaking a door, oh yeah, can happen,

We don't have armed police at each door here, certainly not with the costs of labor in Europe. but each airport here seems to have higher security standards than what exists in the US, certainly in China.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Cerecl
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:22 am

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:18 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
In Germany, airports are protected by German border police and in addition to that, the airport owners have their own security which likely would be at the site first. . Besides that doors are protected electonically and raise instant alarm if opened by force. Not only accoustic but in the control centre as well. That is exactly the kind of preparation which is needed and required by law.

None of this prevents a group of 20 people who are determined to cause trouble. Certainly not within one minute. In fact, I am willing to bet with you that no civil airport in the world, not in China, not in Germany, can stop 20 people going on to the tarmac in one minute if no one knows about it prior and the passengers really set their heart on it.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
We don't have armed police at each door here, certainly not with the costs of labor in Europe. but each airport here seems to have higher security standards than what exists in the US, certainly in China.

The security at any civilian airport is not designed for preventing group violence like this. PVG as a major international hub actually has very good security normally. Is it "stopping 20 people smashing window in a flash" good? Obviously not. However, I doubt FRA or DUS would do much better in this situation.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
It is always amazing to read how Americans, from the country that is "at war with terrorism", find it perfectly alright that people can break secured doors and have a little party on the tarmac.

I think this is an inaccurate and unfair summary of what our American members have posted.
Fokker-100 SAAB 340 Q400 E190 717 737 738 763ER 787-8 772 77E 773 77W 747-400 747-400ER A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A346 A359 A380
 
aviasian
Posts: 1244
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 8:11 am

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:39 am

Demanding compensation for every little delays - even weather-related ones - appears to be something that is becoming common among air passengers from China.

I am surprised that the Chinese authorities and the airlines have thus far been rather meek about putting an end to this shameful behaviour.

Besides not compensating unless it is truly the fault of the airline and the delay is significant, the authorities should impose harsher deterrent sentences on people who disrupt flights and airport operations.

I don't believe these people who seem bent on wrecking havoc to gain monetary compensations can go far in foreign airports. It is about time the Chinese authorities and the various security agencies do something about it before the shame spreads.

KC Sim
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:10 am

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 13):
The security at any civilian airport is not designed for preventing group violence like this. PVG as a major international hub actually has very good security normally. Is it "stopping 20 people smashing window in a flash" good? Obviously not. However, I doubt FRA or DUS would do much better in this situation.

I challenge that. Try smashing a window at a European airport, you would need some tool for that which you are not allowed to carry inside a gate area, or a big stone which would be hard to find as well. By the time such a group would suvcceed smakshing a security glass window, border police which is patrolling the gate areas regularly would be on the szene. doors are locked and secured.

The group would not even get onto the tarmac.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:22 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
It is always amazing to read how Americans, from the country that is "at war with terrorism", find it perfectly alright that people can break secured doors and have a little party on the tarmac. The same country that imposes on the rest of the world often ridiculous security requirements. Even employees with authorization to enter the secured area are inspected each time they go in, often 5 or 6 times a day through their shift. Air cargo, which never ever has been tampered with, has to undergo screenings. But brreaking a door, oh yeah, can happen,

What is amazing is the length some people go to when their poor statements are rebuked. Introducing arguments based on stereotypes and misunderstanding, often willfully, of what is stated just to fit their warped preferences.

No-one suggested it is OK to have unauthorized people on the tarmac. What was rebuked is that it is realistic to have doors secured in such a way that it is impossible for it to happen and that if it somehow happens anyway it can be contained in a minutes time.

What you stated is a nice theory for the utopian world. In reality it works differently.

Even military and nuclear installations will only in the most extreme situations use force to stop people trying to break in on the grounds. If it happens you lock down the important areas, secure the perimeter and take your time apprehending them in the knowledge that it is darn close to impossible for them to cause real damage or escape. The idea that first line defense is impenetrable is ridiculous. That is why you have multi-line defenses.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Cerecl
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:22 am

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:40 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):

I challenge that. Try smashing a window at a European airport, you would need some tool for that which you are not allowed to carry inside a gate area, or a big stone which would be hard to find as well. By the time such a group would suvcceed smakshing a security glass window, border police which is patrolling the gate areas regularly would be on the szene. doors are locked and secured.
The group would not even get onto the tarmac.

What tools? This is not law-abiding citizens going on a geology expedition. Chairs, poles, tables, rubbish bin parts, metal drinking bottles, newspaper stand, they are all "tools". If a group of 20 want to smash windows, they are not going to be too fussed with their choice of tools. Further, maybe police will arrive, but not in a minute. Even if someone happens to be nearby, they are not going to be able to stop 20 people.
Fokker-100 SAAB 340 Q400 E190 717 737 738 763ER 787-8 772 77E 773 77W 747-400 747-400ER A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A346 A359 A380
 
YVRFlyer
Topic Author
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:19 am

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:05 pm

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 3):
This is fanned by the current policy, which restricts/limits law-enforcement action on in an attempt to maintain "stability" and minimise conflict.
Quoting B2468 (Reply 7):
This is the price China pays for having a "harmonious society". Things don't crack often, but when they do, they crack big.

Thanks, this gives a great deal of cultural context to understand what happened. Certainly, from a North American perspective, it sounds incredible... if it happened here, the passengers would've likely been killed, or at least arrested and given harsh sentences. Plus the airport would have been locked-down, air traffic shut off, and perhaps many other airports would be shut down for security sweeps.
YVRFlyer
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Unhappy Fliers In PVG

Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 13):
The security at any civilian airport is not designed for preventing group violence like this. PVG as a major international hub actually has very good security normally. Is it "stopping 20 people smashing window in a flash" good? Obviously not. However, I doubt FRA or DUS would do much better in this situation.

I challenge that. Try smashing a window at a European airport, you would need some tool for that which you are not allowed to carry inside a gate area, or a big stone which would be hard to find as well. By the time such a group would suvcceed smakshing a security glass window, border police which is patrolling the gate areas regularly would be on the szene. doors are locked and secured.

The group would not even get onto the tarmac.

Oh, yes it will. All airports need to have fire exits, which for the departure gates often lead to the ramp. These exits are alarmed, so that nobody can secretly SNEAK on the ramp, but they are not constantly guarded by security officers standing beside them. A group opening such an exit will be able to get on the ramp before security can react and send staff there.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos