SWALUV
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VS Fighting BA

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:28 pm

Hi

So... we all have heard about the BA BMI merger. Well this article says that VS is not, um, pleased to say the least.

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...ays-expansion-at-heathrow/673389/1

Branson's fight is hat they will have more than 50% of the market place.

Do we see VS actually gaining ground here?
Do we see the government intervening with the merger?
Do we see more slots taken away?
Or, is this just nothing?

Thanks for your input.

PS. sorry for re-posting if that is the case
 
jumpjets
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:44 pm

THe UK office of fair trading opted not to investigate the merger and leave the decision to the EU commission. It would seem unlikey now that they would have good reason to change that decision as, insofar as I know, no new facts have emerged or legal flaws in the process identified. so I would suggest the answer to question 2 is no.

As far as Q1 is concerned I dont see VS gaining ground now - they had their chance to put forward their objections and righly or wrongly they were disregarded. The 12 slots that are available for VS to bid for inclde a minimum of 7 domestic slot pairs which dont really fit very well with VS current strategy.

As far as Q3 is concerned, again unless some legal impediment or new facts come to light to cause the EU to reviist the decision I dont see the number of slots being changed.
 
SWALUV
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 1):
inclde a minimum of 7 domestic slot pairs which dont really fit very

Were these slots given up forcible or did they chose to give up the domestic slots.
 
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macsog6
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting SWALUV (Thread starter):
Or, is this just nothing?




IMHO, there are certain airline executives who do things merely to keep their names and their company name in the press. We all know who they are as we see their names all the time. Moves such as the ones described herein are done, I suspect, just for the publicity. Thus, this is nothing.
Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
 
speedbird9
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:06 pm

Quoting SWALUV (Thread starter):
Do we see VS actually gaining ground here?
Do we see the government intervening with the merger?
Do we see more slots taken away?
Or, is this just nothing?

1) The British Government wont get involved its against everything the Conservatives stand for and naturally they and the Liberal Democrats would leave it up to the EU, as for the Office of Fair Trading, they opted out of reviewing the takeover and left it upto the EU
2) I doubt it by the sound of it the EU Competition Commission seem pretty adamant that IAG meet there competiton requirements and they too probably realise that this is just SRB harping on against VS biggest rival

so i believe its is just nothing
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:41 am

I really don't understand what the problem is ?

VS and Sir Richard have already achieved what they set out to achieve.

To have two massive airlines based at the same European airport with a near identical network and soft product in the global aviation industry as it is today would not make any sense.

And for what ?

A different name on the side of the fuselage.

Which makes me think it is just a fixation certain members of VS management have with BA.

They need to start looking within rather than blaming others for their mistakes.

You can't make a bed for yourself and then refuse to lie in it becuase everyone else has made a bigger one !
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tonystan
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:06 pm

Someone is very very scared!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
jumpjets
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:13 pm

Quoting SWALUV (Reply 2):
Were these slots given up forcible or did they chose to give up the domestic slots.

The negotiated [as opposed to forced] settlement with the EU and IAG was that 14 slots were to be surrendered by BA.

For some reason 2 slots were granted to Transaero as a matter of policy leaving 12 others - presumably something to do with the UK/Russia bi-lateral agreements.

Of the 12 remianing slots the settlement specified 7 pairs have to be used for either ABZ or EDI. The remaining 5 slots have to be used on one or more of other specified routes - which strangely again includes ABZ and EDI - so someone could bid to use all 12 on the Scottish routes and provide no additional services on the other specified routes such as CAI and NCE.

As far as I can tell from reading the EU document the actual slots to be surrendered are based on the slots requested by the applicants and are not linked to the slots currently used by BMI to fly, for example to ABZ or CAI.
 
jumpjet
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:14 pm

Good article about this in today's Daily Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-his-own-turbulence-at-Virgin.html

Seems to make a lot of sense to me. SRB apperas to do lots of screaming and shouting when things don't go his own way, but does precious little about it when the opportunity to do so is staring him in the face...

Stelios is the same over at Squeezyjet...
 
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Btblue
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:29 pm

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 8):
Good article about this in today's Daily Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-his-own-turbulence-at-Virgin.html

Seems to make a lot of sense to me. SRB apperas to do lots of screaming and shouting when things don't go his own way, but does precious little about it when the opportunity to do so is staring him in the face...

Stelios is the same over at Squeezyjet...

That's a really great piece, short, to the point and valid.

I would however have thought that Branson would be able to take a loan from the Bank the British taxpayer practically gave him... He's very quiet on THAT front.

I used to love SRB but he's become do diluted with his focus (Galactic, Atlantic, Trains, TV, Bank) that squabbling and moaning does him no favours. As has been nicely outlined in the above article, it would appear he is all talk and little substance as far as BMI is concerned.

I do wonder what SIA have to say about all of this and their return in investment...
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:44 pm

Quoting btblue (Reply 9):
, it would appear he is all talk and little substance as far as BMI is concerned.

As a friend of mine often says....''all fur coat and no knickers''
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
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Btblue
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:50 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 10):
Quoting btblue (Reply 9):
, it would appear he is all talk and little substance as far as BMI is concerned.

As a friend of mine often says....''all fur coat and no knickers''

 

Yikes...! SRB in a fur coat with no knickers... perish the thought! When I think of that image I think of Michael O'slimey... even worse. Bleh.
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:22 pm

I'd love to get my hands on VS.

The first thing I'd do is go knocking on Willie Walsh's door waving a white flag asking if there was a mutually beneficial way to work together.

There is absolutely no reason why VS couldn't retain its identitty, branding, image etc as a member of IAG.

Isn't that a benefit of a holding company ?

Given the size of VS it could work and i'm sure the regulators would / could just about swallow it.

(maybe with a squirt of KY)

Past vendattas and grudges finally laid to rest of course............

(sorry, I posted this in VS & The A380 first time round by mistake)
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
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macsog6
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 10):
....''all fur coat and no knickers''

In Texas it is "all hat and no cattle."
Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting macsog6 (Reply 13):
In Texas it is "all hat and no cattle."

Yeah I have heard of that.

LOL - I can't imagine too many cowboys going around saying.... 'he's all fur coat and no knickers'

Not if they're from Texas anyway !!!
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
jumpjet
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:12 pm

Quoting btblue (Reply 9):
I used to love SRB

I absolutely agree! The Virgin brand is (was?) one of the most trusted and admired brands of all time. I've been on so many training courses where we've been shown brand logos and asked which we aspired to, and Virgin always came first without exception.

I was a massive fan of Virgin Atlantic and SRB and deliberately chose to fly with them in the past, as they were so innovative at the time. The last time we used them was on a trip from Boston to Heathrow and it was a complete nightmare. The cabin crew couldn't have cared less about us, it was a true disaster. It was so obvious that morale was at rock bottom.

I started to wonder what was going on when SRB started to fanny about with the A380 order, which I'm sure he only entered into in the first place as a very expensive two fingered salute to BA and AA. After all this time, he still hasn't got them and I don't think he ever will! And now BA's own whalejets have been ordered and are actually being built.

For such a respected businessman, he seems to let his heart rule his head and is constantly running off in different directions. Anyway, he's certainly lost my respect with the way he messed around with the BMI issue too! I shouldn't imagine he's that too worried about that though.... Money aside, to an industry outsider it appeared to be the obvious answer to all of Virgin Atlantic's woes at a stroke.

Whilst on this topic and going off at a tangent myself, didn't Virgin have a charter airline called Virgin Sun? What went wrong there, I can remember seeing their A320s in storage at Filton some time ago. They were very good looking jets....
 
aviationfreak
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:42 pm

How many opportunities did SRB have to merge with or buy BMI? Although I regret that BA bought BMI and that I have sympathy for SRB, he should have acted some time ago. The 2 airlines would have complemented each other quite well IMHO.

Other question: Was it LH decision who to sell the airline to?
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vv701
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 15):
Whilst on this topic and going off at a tangent myself, didn't Virgin have a charter airline called Virgin Sun?

Virgin Sun was formed in 1998. It operated both charter and scheduled flights to the Mediterranean and the Canary Islands primarilly oiut of LGW and MAN. It leased three 320s and three 321s.

Virgin failed to make the airline profitable. On 1 November it sold the operations to First Choice and returned the aircraft to the lessors.

Quoting Aviationfreak (Reply 16):
Was it LH decision who to sell the airline to?

BD was 100 per cent owned by Lufthansa Group. The only body other than Lufthansa Group who could have any say as to who bought it when Lufthansa Group announced it was for sale would have been the competition authorities.

One suspects that LH would have preferred to sell BD to VS rather than BA. After all VS is 49 per cent owned by LH's Star partner, SQ. And neither LH nor any other Lufthansa Group airlines fly in direct competition with VS as they all do with BA. So it would seem that Lufthansa Group would rather see VS than BA strengthening their position at LHR. But clearly the VS offer, reported to have been £50 million, was no more serious than their £1 million subsequently raised to £5 million offer for BA's Concorde Fleet and maintenance facilities.
 
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
BD was 100 per cent owned by Lufthansa Group. The only body other than Lufthansa Group who could have any say as to who bought it when Lufthansa Group announced it was for sale would have been the competition authorities.

One suspects that LH would have preferred to sell BD to VS rather than BA. After all VS is 49 per cent owned by LH's Star partner, SQ. And neither LH nor any other Lufthansa Group airlines fly in direct competition with VS as they all do with BA. So it would seem that Lufthansa Group would rather see VS than BA strengthening their position at LHR.

That was exactly what I was wondering. Why is LH making one of their bigger competitors and their presence at LHR stronger? And weaken star alliance at LHR at the same time?
This got to be one of the strangest bussiness deals in aviation.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
offer for BA's Concorde Fleet and maintenance facilities.

Seems like RBS was always a bit jealous at BA. If he ever was to fly concorde it was to be with AF wasn't it?  
I love both Airbus and Boeing as much as I love aviation!
 
jfk777
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:44 pm

Quoting Aviationfreak (Reply 18):
One suspects that LH would have preferred to sell BD to VS rather than BA. After all VS is 49 per cent owned by LH's Star partner, SQ. And neither LH nor any other Lufthansa Group airlines fly in direct competition with VS as they all do with BA. So it would seem that Lufthansa Group would rather see VS than BA strengthening their position at LHR.
That was exactly what I was wondering. Why is LH making one of their bigger competitors and their presence at LHR stronger? And weaken star alliance at LHR at the same time?
This got to be one of the strangest bussiness deals in aviation

LH's decision to sell BMI to IAG was to cut its loses. LH stripped BMI of the only vauable thing BMI, its slots, and sold them or transferred them to other LH group airlines. SN Brussels, Austrian and SWISS all got BMI slots from LH. LH had to know when it purchased BMI that flying A320's to Cairo, Tel aviv, Moscow and A330's to Saudi Arabia doesn't make a plan for a viable airline. BA is buying about half teh slots LH got when they merged BMI into LH.
 
steve6666
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
I'd love to get my hands on VS.

The first thing I'd do is go knocking on Willie Walsh's door waving a white flag asking if there was a mutually beneficial way to work together.

There is absolutely no reason why VS couldn't retain its identitty, branding, image etc as a member of IAG.

On a purely non-emotive point, I have to agree with you that BA/IAG is by far the most obvious purchaser of VS. But it is going to take a monumental swallowing of Branson's pride before he takes BA's money - I suspect SQ may partially force the issue trying to do something with their zombie investment, but it may take impending bankruptcy or Branson retiring before this happens. Unless of course, he can paint it to the media as having got a really good deal from BA.....

On the other hand, I don't think BA would have any more interest operating a Virgin brand out of Heathrow than they did keeping BMI as a separate brand. BA could realise far far more cost and revenue synergies from integrating the two operations. THEN there would be a certain additional orders for A380s from BA.....

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 15):
The Virgin brand is (was?) one of the most trusted and admired brands of all time. I've been on so many training courses where we've been shown brand logos and asked which we aspired to, and Virgin always came first without exception.

This also is interesting - to ask the question, was there ever anything behind it? You want cable TV in the UK, you have to have Virgin (and there are plenty of people who live in flats who are not allowed Sky....I was one). You want a quick train from London to Manchester, you have to go Virgin. My point being, there is no core competence that is unique to Virgin, records, trains, planes, internet and coke are pretty disparate businesses, all anyone will ever rely on is Virgins "image" or brand that the marketing department manages to establish via the media.

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 15):
For such a respected businessman

Really? Have you read the Bower biography? I can think of other more apt adjectives than respected.
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mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:37 pm

The trouble with VS is that they are now trying to become something that the original foundations of the business model simply wont support.

Back when they started there was no Oneworld, no Star Alliance, no Skyteam, no Emirates, no Qatar or Etihad Airways, no joint ventures, no anti-trust immunities and now there is no BD supplying feed.

How can they possibly compete when they have allowed themselves to become so obsolete ?

By trying to stop BA doing what everyone else is doing ?

It really is as simple as that !

[Edited 2012-04-19 10:38:44]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
virgincrew
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 21):
The trouble with VS is that they are now trying to become something that the original foundations of the business model simply wont support.

Back when they started there was no Oneworld, no Star Alliance, no Skyteam, no Emirates, no Qatar or Etihad Airways, no joint ventures, no anti-trust immunities and now there is no BD supplying feed.

How can they possibly compete when they have allowed themselves to become so obsolete ?

By trying to stop BA doing what everyone else is doing ?

It really is as simple as that !

Mikey .... you may need to record this comment, after you've picked yourself off the floor !

I am starting to agree with your comments, SRB needs to get over this whole BA thing & concentrate on VS becoming the best again !

VS need to join an alliance and concentrate on long haul route expansion and new innovative product & service.

I really agree with your comments "The trouble with VS is that they are now trying to become something that the original foundations of the business model simply wont support"

VS weren't born to be the National British Carrier, they need to focus on what VS is or they are going to end up like Pam Am.

SRB's comments aside & this whole IAG / BMI thing .... VS is heading in the right direction, new routes, new aircraft & finally the upgrade of the LGW 744's.

I say let's concentrate what originally made VS one of the best airlines out there and get that 4 star rating back !
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BestWestern
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:45 pm

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 22):
I say let's concentrate what originally made VS one of the best airlines out there and get that 4 star rating back !

Virgin should be aiming for nothing less than to get back to being Europes best long haul airline. That calls for five star quality, and no four star 'me too'.

Starting ultra short haul would be a total distraction for VS - a three aircraft subfleet would be a huge loss making exersize. If VS are successful with Moscow and Riyadh, a long haul 330 should operate these routes. Back to reality, and In true Branson ego boosting pig headedness style, I expect to see three A319s with IFE, 'silver service' and low fares wooing the customers and burning a huge hole in the P&L.
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:52 pm

Steve Ridgway has intimated that if Virgin bids for the 12 slots it won't be Virgin operating them, it will only be Virgin branded:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...n-over-iags-takeover-of-bmi-370996

Quote:
Ridgway says Virgin Atlantic will bid for "remedy routes" - flown using some of the 14 daily Heathrow slot pairs IAG is being forced to surrender as part of its BMI takeover - to ensure that key UK domestic feeder services are maintained. If Virgin is successful in its bid, these would be operated by aircraft "in Virgin Atlantic livery" but not necessarily flown by the longhaul carrier itself, says Ridgway.
 
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eurowings
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 24):
Steve Ridgway has intimated that if Virgin bids for the 12 slots it won't be Virgin operating them, it will only be Virgin branded:

I suggested Flybe as an operator on a previous thread, maybe, just maybe, this will happen....

[Edited 2012-04-23 14:58:49]
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Bongodog1964
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 24):
Steve Ridgway has intimated that if Virgin bids for the 12 slots it won't be Virgin operating them, it will only be Virgin branded:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...n-over-iags-takeover-of-bmi-370996

Quote:Ridgway says Virgin Atlantic will bid for "remedy routes" - flown using some of the 14 daily Heathrow slot pairs IAG is being forced to surrender as part of its BMI takeover - to ensure that key UK domestic feeder services are maintained. If Virgin is successful in its bid, these would be operated by aircraft "in Virgin Atlantic livery" but not necessarily flown by the longhaul carrier itself, says Ridgway.

The EU report on the merger which sets out the terms for the allocation of the slots makes it clear that the applicant has to operate the slots themself. Steve Ridgeways suggestion that Virgin Atlantic might get a 3rd party to operate on their behalf is a very quick way of ensuring that VS don't get an allocation. The 3rd party would need to make the application.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:30 am

Quoting SWALUV (Thread starter):
we all have heard about the BA BMI merger. Well this article says that VS is not, um, pleased to say the least.

In other news, Tuesday will follow Monday tomorrow  
Quoting SWALUV (Thread starter):
Branson's fight is hat they will have more than 50% of the market place.

Do we see VS actually gaining ground here?
Do we see the government intervening with the merger?
Do we see more slots taken away?
Or, is this just nothing?

The latter. SRB & VS had ample opportunity to put their money where their mouth is and buy BD by putting in a better offer than IAG, but failed to do so.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 10):
As a friend of mine often says....''all fur coat and no knickers''

My dad always said all mouth & no trousers.

Quoting Aviationfreak (Reply 18):
This got to be one of the strangest bussiness deals in aviation.

Shows what a loss making, hopeless, futureless basket case BD was.

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 15):
The Virgin brand is (was?) one of the most trusted and admired brands of all time

Horrible analogy, but back in 1984 or whenever it was, VS was fresh & vibrant like a, um, well, you know.... but now the old girl has been round the block a few times and doesnt have the same appeal.

Quoting eurowings (Reply 25):
I suggested Flybe as an operator on a previous thread, maybe, just maybe, this will happen....

What would make the most sense is to buy Regional, or at least codeshare with whoever does if they maintain the Scotland - LHR routes.

Another outside shot is to buy WW, even if they close the current routes, they could use the old 737's, crew & infrastructure to operate the LHR routes to test the water, then get the best aircraft for the job once they have a feel for the viability of the venture. They could even maintain the status quo and cheaply add a couple more 737 classics - plenty very cheap on the market - to operate LHR. LH would basically give WW away and it could be a very cheap way of entering the domestic & EU market.

Imagine the fun with the marketing - Virgin all growed up and has a baby, or Virgin & LH have a date, baby due in 9 months....!!

But no, rather than do something pro-active or innovative, its far easier to bitch & whine about BA.

I like VS by the way, very happy they are starting YVR - but the frequency & timing sucks for my trip, so will have to use "someone else" as usual cough cough (who funnily enough have connections to EDI  ).
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Dano1977
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:54 am

Quoting Aviationfreak (Reply 18):

Sir Richard Branson flew once only on a British airways Concorde, but didn't pay/refused to pay for thr ticket.

The airfare was paid by chris Evans, motor mouth dj and tv personality as he was buying virgin radio from SRB
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:31 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 27):
I like VS by the way, very happy they are starting YVR

The fact that VS are commencing YVR more importantly from LHR just highlights everything that is wrong with the VS business model (it can only support this type of expansion in its network after 30 years ) and why Willie Walsh was right to call them irrelevant.

[Edited 2012-04-23 23:33:46]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:01 am

The last thing LHR needs is a slot being used to operate to a city already served by 2 other carriers.

Of course VS can fly to where they wish but in my view it is a waste of valuable resources when the customer already has 2 excellent options.

VS won't be cheaper or offer a better product.

Their entry may reduce the fares of all 3 to unsustainable levels but over-capacity is precisely what has been wrong with the industry.

I don't want to see the industry 'compete' its way into shoddy bad service and products due to too much dilution of revenue streams, over-capacity and needless duplication.

Eventually it just leads to less choice when carriers merge or go bust as we are constantly a witness at the moment.

Anyone that does not agree just remember that this scenario HAS happened and it IS happening.



[Edited 2012-04-24 00:02:09]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
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eurowings
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:27 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 27):
What would make the most sense is to buy Regional, or at least codeshare with whoever does if they maintain the Scotland - LHR routes.

I am not convinced that VS would want to inherit a Scottish focused domestic network and 19 Embraer E135s/E145s, which aren't the right aircraft for a limited slot LHR operation. The new owner of Regional (if it isn't IAG) would have to bid for these slots as well, as they don't have any at LHR (they were owned by mainline).

As for buying Baby, it just seems like an unnecessary cost to get hold of some older 737s. If it was permitted by the EU decision, an ACMI arrangement or partnership seems more sensible for a very limited short-haul network, but that's just my opinion.
"Freddie Laker may be at peace with his Maker, but he is persona non grata with IATA."- HRH Duke of Edinburgh
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:54 am

Quoting eurowings (Reply 31):
I am not convinced that VS would want to inherit a Scottish focused domestic network and 19 Embraer E135s/E145s, which aren't the right aircraft for a limited slot LHR operation. The new owner of Regional (if it isn't IAG) would have to bid for these slots as well, as they don't have any at LHR (they were owned by mainline).

As for buying Baby, it just seems like an unnecessary cost to get hold of some older 737s. If it was permitted by the EU decision, an ACMI arrangement or partnership seems more sensible for a very limited short-haul network, but that's just my opinion.

I agree but when all is said and done both are doomed.

From a VS (little red riding hood) stand point at least it will be another opportunity to have a pop at BA (the big bad wolf).

Who knows.....they may even be able to secure some more free porridge. (or was that Goldilocks ?)

Can't see Chris Evans dobbing up this time though.

[Edited 2012-04-24 01:51:44]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:44 am

Mikey, I don't agree with every word you write but I think you have encapsulated everything wrong with VS in this comment... kudos!

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 21):
The trouble with VS is that they are now trying to become something that the original foundations of the business model simply wont support.

Back when they started there was no Oneworld, no Star Alliance, no Skyteam, no Emirates, no Qatar or Etihad Airways, no joint ventures, no anti-trust immunities and now there is no BD supplying feed.

How can they possibly compete when they have allowed themselves to become so obsolete ?

By trying to stop BA doing what everyone else is doing ?

It really is as simple as that !
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 27):
so will have to use "someone else" as usual cough cough (who funnily enough have connections to EDI

United?   
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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mariner
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:38 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 10):
As a friend of mine often says....''all fur coat and no knickers''

What he has created in his life is one heck of a fur coat.

I think he is one of the great, innovative businessmen. His way of doing business has always been to attract publicity - he's always been a mouth, from the days when he bought Heaven, a gay disco.

I can't think why he should change now and I'd be disappointed if he did. The world world be a lot more boring without him.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:41 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 33):
Mikey, I don't agree with every word you write but I think you have encapsulated everything wrong with VS in this comment... kudos!

I always feel guilty when I rant on about VS.

I am after all an aviation enthusiast.

They just frustrate me so because they are in such a good position to take a different approach rather than trying to stick it to BA all the time.

Get over it....move on.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:45 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 35):
I always feel guilty when I rant on about VS.

I am after all an aviation enthusiast.

They just frustrate me so because they are in such a good position to take a different approach rather than trying to stick it to BA all the time.

Don't worry, I know you're not a "bad" guy and I agree in principle with your points re VS.

That said, I last flew them in 1999 so I can't really add anything. Their little sister in Australia, on the other hand, don't get me started! I might make you look restrained  
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mariner
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:46 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 35):
They just frustrate me so because they are in such a good position to take a different approach rather than trying to stick it to BA all the time.

So he shouldn't have stuck it to BA over, say, the dirty tricks campaign?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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GCT64
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:13 am

Other than the love of the underdog, I don't see what unique offering VS makes to the British public.

I need to go to BOS in early June for a business trip, cheapest return economy prices (non-stop) on offer for my dates are:

OW (AA/BA) = GBP 1406
Skyteam (DL) = GBP 1220
VS = GBP 1455

So they aren't helping me on price (c.f. the major alliances). In the current era, they don't offer a better travelling experience (in fact my last experience with VS suggested it was worse than BA, for example). They don't offer a large network over which to gain FF miles / FF status and use lounges.

Meanwhile If I look at my colleagues near EDI, they can travel on BA EDI-LHR-the World while VS will now rely on BA for the EDI-LHR leg (with the accompanying friction of inter-airline connecting if the connection goes wrong at LHR - which is not exactly unlikely). I think they will be staying on BA for all legs (and BA pricing has got noticeably more competitive in the last year or so and their FF scheme is much more attractive (than it was) for economy pax).

We have booked less and less flights on VS over the last few years, and I don't see that trend being reversed.

None of my recent real-world experience suggests that VS have a rosy future ahead unless they do something more radical (different service levels, different pricing, different destinations etc.)
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:52 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 37):
So he shouldn't have stuck it to BA over, say, the dirty tricks campaign?

The words 'ancient' and 'history' spring to mind.

If we all went around bearing grudges nobody would be speaking to anyone.

Although they inspire passion in their supporters (sometimes akin in strength to sports team fans (of which I am guilty)) airlines are not animate breathing entities you know.

The name stays the same but the people running them and working for them changes constantly over time.

This is the same globally apart from one grudge bearing exception.......................

It will consume VS and its management in the end just as it did the management of British Airways ALL those years ago.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
fcogafa
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:55 am

Quoting eurowings (Reply 25):
I suggested Flybe as an operator on a previous thread, maybe, just maybe, this will happen....

However, there are rumours going about that Flybe may be soon flying a recently acquired route into LHR for a large airline who have shares in them....
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:29 pm

Large companies, especially those operating at a 'big business' level are best not managed by people with some sort of personal attachment.

That can lead to irrational decision making.

VS seem hell bent on operating as if they were doing so in some fledgling new market of a bygone era ?

Of which we all know LHR certainly is not such a market.

YVR is a good example.

Served from Heathrow by both the Star Alliance and Oneworld.

I know alliances have been dismissed (wrongly) and are an anathema to VS but with this in mind what possible added value in the long tern does VS bring to the route, those flying it and itself given their maintained isolated position ?
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
anstar
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 30):
The last thing LHR needs is a slot being used to operate to a city already served by 2 other carriers.

So you are saying it is acceptable for LHR to have duoplies on all the routes and any other carriers should just leave?

Lots of LHR routes have more than 2 airlines competing - why shouldnt VS give YVR a try?

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 38):
Other than the love of the underdog, I don't see what unique offering VS makes to the British public.

Perhaps ask the 5 million odd passengers that fly with them?

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 41):

I know alliances have been dismissed (wrongly) and are an anathema to VS but with this in mind what possible added value in the long tern does VS bring to the route, those flying it and itself given their maintained isolated position ?

VS bring competition - which is good for consumers...

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 29):
The fact that VS are commencing YVR more importantly from LHR just highlights everything that is wrong with the VS business model (it can only support this type of expansion in its network after 30 years ) and why Willie Walsh was right to call them irrelevant.

I owuld guess that if LHR was not slot restricted VS would be flying to alot more destinations than they currently do.

WW is wrong to call VS irrelevant (though I would expect their largest competitor to say that - because they are not - just look at how much you like to discuss them   WW wishes they were irrelevant but they are one of the main competitors to BA on a lot of their long haul routes (which is where the profit is).
 
virgincrew
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 42):
Quoting GCT64 (Reply 38):Other than the love of the underdog, I don't see what unique offering VS makes to the British public.

Perhaps ask the 5 million odd passengers that fly with them?

couldn't agree more !

Quoting anstar (Reply 42):
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 41):
I know alliances have been dismissed (wrongly) and are an anathema to VS but with this in mind what possible added value in the long tern does VS bring to the route, those flying it and itself given their maintained isolated position ?

VS bring competition - which is good for consumers...

couldn't agree more !

Quoting anstar (Reply 42):
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 29):The fact that VS are commencing YVR more importantly from LHR just highlights everything that is wrong with the VS business model (it can only support this type of expansion in its network after 30 years ) and why Willie Walsh was right to call them irrelevant.
I owuld guess that if LHR was not slot restricted VS would be flying to alot more destinations than they currently do.

WW is wrong to call VS irrelevant (though I would expect their largest competitor to say that - because they are not - just look at how much you like to discuss them WW wishes they were irrelevant but they are one of the main competitors to BA on a lot of their long haul routes (which is where the profit is).

couldn't agree more !

this is just another thread that turns into VS bashing !

To me it makes good business sense to concentrate on proven routes when the LHR slots are so restricted and other airlines are allowed a 50% + allocation of LHR slots ?!?!?!?

If VS were allowed more slots, I think it would give them more flexibility to be adventerous with their route expansion !

Loyal customers that fly VS, fly them because they have a good product ! This year alone they have invested £100m in new products, services & aircraft !
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
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GCT64
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 42):
VS bring competition - which is good for consumers...

I showed in my comments that this is not the case (no better service, no better product offering, no better pricing)

Quoting anstar (Reply 42):
I owuld guess that if LHR was not slot restricted VS would be flying to alot more destinations than they currently do.

It has been shown on a regular basis that VS has made no serious attempt to acquire additional slots (most recently, but far from the only example, they had the opportunity to bid for BMI but didn't make a serious offer)
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anstar
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 43):
Loyal customers that fly VS, fly them because they have a good product ! This year alone they have invested £100m in new products, services & aircraft !

Very true - VS are rarely the cheapest, so those that fly them, fly them for a reason - and that reason is not cost alone.

But I guess a lot of the Virgin bashers have probably not even set foot on the airline in the last 12 months to see the improvements that have been made.
 
virgincrew
Posts: 420
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 44):
Quoting anstar (Reply 42):VS bring competition - which is good for consumers...

I showed in my comments that this is not the case (no better service, no better product offering, no better pricing)

That is your personal opinion !

People that fly VS, fly VS because they feel they have better service & product offering than other long haul carriers.

VS have a very loyal customer following !

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 44):
It has been shown on a regular basis that VS has made no serious attempt to acquire additional slots (most recently, but far from the only example, they had the opportunity to bid for BMI but didn't make a serious offer)

If you look at my other thread about IAG & BMI and the fact they might have only paid £20m for BMI !?!? Which if true, is less than what VS bid for BMI !
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
anstar
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 44):

I showed in my comments that this is not the case (no better service, no better product offering, no better pricing)

just because you have the opinion that they do not provide a better service (arguable as Air Canada arent known for their offering) or pricing - doesnt mean they are not providing competition.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 44):

It has been shown on a regular basis that VS has made no serious attempt to acquire additional slots (most recently, but far from the only example, they had the opportunity to bid for BMI but didn't make a serious offer)

but if a slot costs 30 million versus a slot that is free - that makes a huge difference in being able to open up new routes. As LHR slots are not free these days only routes that can have a positve ROI will be started - this makes the barrier for entry that much higher. With this - Virgin are at a disadvantage.
 
virgincrew
Posts: 420
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 45):
But I guess a lot of the Virgin bashers have probably not even set foot on the airline in the last 12 months to see the improvements that have been made.

EXACTLY !

I am the first to admitt that VS haven't been the best over recent years, but they have listened to consumers and they have addressed or are addressing the issues. The changes weren't over night - but VS would have been silly to try and change things over night.

The New Upper Class Suite has been designed over a 4 year period for example. The main issues with VS were the LGW Leisure fleet, and as we speak those 744's are in for total re-fitt.

So in my opinion, VS are still a market leader in product, service & aircraft.
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
anstar
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 48):

So in my opinion, VS are still a market leader in product, service & aircraft.

Once the LGW refits are complete they will by far offer the best product out of LGW.

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