mikey72
Posts: 1439
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 42):
So you are saying it is acceptable for LHR to have duoplies on all the routes and any other carriers should just leave?

What I have said is in response to VS's stance on many issues...that is what you should consider anstar.

We've just had to endure months of VS campaigning against the BA acquisition of BD because of the resulting domestic monopoly.

With that in mind I would of thought YVR should rank somewhere down the bottom of their list of new routes along with the extra services to SFO. Those slots could be used in conjunction with the slots IAG will be 'forced' to surrender for new VS domestic services ....???

Quoting anstar (Reply 42):
Lots of LHR routes have more than 2 airlines competing - why shouldnt VS give YVR a try?

Same as above.

Quoting anstar (Reply 42):
VS bring competition - which is good for consumers...

If you choose to believe that in a world of global alliances, mega-mergers and cash rich gulf carriers that VS is still somehow a competitive threat to BA (IAG and Oneworld) then that's up to you.

Quoting anstar (Reply 42):
I owuld guess that if LHR was not slot restricted VS would be flying to alot more destinations than they currently do.

VS have had just as much opportunity as every other airline to gain slots.

Quoting anstar (Reply 42):
WW is wrong to call VS irrelevant (though I would expect their largest competitor to say that - because they are not - just look at how much you like to discuss them

I would be a liar if I said I didn't find the whole BA/VS saga fascinating. You couldn't write as fiction a more interesting business scenario.

Quoting anstar (Reply 42):
WW wishes they were irrelevant but they are one of the main competitors to BA on a lot of their long haul routes (which is where the profit is).

A 'few' of their long-haul routes anstar and on most of them they are up against not just BA frequencies but also those of other Oneworld carriers aswell. Look at JFK for example.

anstar all i'm saying is that you can't sling sh*t like VS does and then refuse to invest in a dustpan and brush when the opportunity arises......
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
virgincrew
Posts: 420
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:41 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 49):
Once the LGW refits are complete they will by far offer the best product out of LGW.

Definately .....
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
virgincrew
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:19 pm

I know who I would rather fly Business Class .....

Hello Beautiful !!!
 
virgincrew
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:31 pm

and I know who I would rather fly Premium Economy with ....

Hello Beautiful !!!
 
lhr380
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:31 pm

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 52):

A window seat actually with a window that's easy to look out of, or a great upper deck seat, I know who I would rather fly when it came to Club.
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
virgincrew
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 54):
A window seat actually with a window that's easy to look out of, or a great upper deck seat, I know who I would rather fly when it came to Club.

I've flown both ... and when it comes to the seat, product & enviorment - I would rather have the Upper Class Suite.

Even the New Economy product is a an improvement



Hello Beautiful !!!
 
lhr380
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:46 pm

You seen the new BA Y and W product then I take it?

Thats the one downside for me with VS J, no views at all without really turning around, but then saying that, that is the bad thing with the herringbone, hence CX just changed theirs and it faces inwards now.
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
anstar
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:54 pm

Most business travellers dont give a rats if they can see out the window.

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 56):
You seen the new BA Y and W product then I take it?

Yes I have - I still think the W product is inferior to what VS offers.

As for looking out the window... For the business travellers in J I really dont see it as an issue. Its more us enthusiasts that seem to have an issue with it ;P but for those that do - the new seats is more angles so you have a better view out the window now on VS as well as 50% more recline.

Having seen the new VS product first hand - it looks fantastic and the bar area definately has the WOW factor.
 
sbworcs
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 43):
If VS were allowed more slots, I think it would give them more flexibility to be adventerous with their route expansion !

VS is allowed more slots if it is willing to pay for them like other airlines have to
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 52):
Quoting anstar (Reply 57):

It's not about seats and (if Skytrax is anything to go by) it's certainly not about service.

There's not enough of a difference between the two and even if there were....

From a premium perspecitive in terms of what BA can offer their frequent fliers...i.e benefits of Oneworld, seemless connections, frequencies, joint venture arrangements, Terminal 5.....etc etc....they knock VS into a cocked hat.

VS could have 100% load factor...100% full fare....100% of the time....because of the way they've been managed....i.e their lack of scale....they won't even come close.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
strfyr51
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:30 pm

Everybody in the INDUSTRY knew Lufthy was trying go Unload BMI. VS had EVERY opportunity to bid for them and DIDN'T!!
Branson has nobody to blame but Himself Now as Usual he's "whining". What's UP with that?? First it was BA/AA No WAY!
(ONEWORLD) then it was "4 Engines/ Not 2" (because they bought the A340 and not the B777) It's starting to look like he's throwing Temper tantrums. I haven't heard of any other airline Bemoan ANY Virgin Branded airline or their eventual "Schemes" for "world dominance" He won't join an alliance because he CAN'T We ALL know that. So why mot handle His business and leave BA's alone?? Didn't BA cough up $900+M for their Last schemes against him?? They just beat him to the Punch!
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 57):
Having seen the new VS product first hand - it looks fantastic and the bar area definately has the WOW factor.

You see...that's the problem.

No self respecting airline with any kind of realistic concern for its bottom line has 'a bar area'.

It's a gimmick typical of the Virgin brand. (along with a shade of lip stick..??)

It is this kind of weightless posturing that left unchecked will be the undoing of the airline.

The A380 can just about get away with it but let's not go there with VS...
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
virgincrew
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 61):
No self respecting airline with any kind of realistic concern for its bottom line has 'a bar area'.

ha ha ha

but it's things like this that make people fly VS !

The bar area is very popular with J Pax's and always has been. The research that has been done for Upper Class is that their regular flyers still want it.

The main point I am trying to make is that it is all down to passenger choice and I agree that VS & BA are a level pegging airline. People fly BA & VS for different reasons ....

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 61):
It's a gimmick typical of the Virgin brand.

it's not a gimmick, it's a level of service that VS's Upper Class Passengers have come to expect.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 61):
(along with a shade of lip stick..??)

the lipstick is just a bit of fun that is linked in with the VS brand and the female uniform, same as the bringing back the red shoes, for the people that love VS - it's what makes VS great.

I agree there is a lot of hot air at VS, but the hard product is still one of the best ! VS need to focus on what they're doing now.... fleet, service & product upgrades .....

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 59):
From a premium perspecitive in terms of what BA can offer their frequent fliers...i.e benefits of Oneworld, seemless connections, frequencies, joint venture arrangements, Terminal 5.....etc etc....they knock VS into a cocked hat.

I agree Mikey, VS need to focus on that and join an alliance, however, they already offer some of that through their code sharing. I do agree that VS needs to remember what they wanted to be, when they first started - the best UK long haul carrier.

They need to forget all the politics with BA, it's old news and finished with.
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
virgincrew
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:24 pm

Mikey,

This is a comment I made right at the top of this thread and I still stand by it. I am lover of VS and always will be, but that said .....



"Mikey .... you may need to record this comment, after you've picked yourself off the floor !

I am starting to agree with your comments, SRB needs to get over this whole BA thing & concentrate on VS becoming the best again !

VS need to join an alliance and concentrate on long haul route expansion and new innovative product & service.

I really agree with your comments "The trouble with VS is that they are now trying to become something that the original foundations of the business model simply wont support"

VS weren't born to be the National British Carrier, they need to focus on what VS is or they are going to end up like Pam Am.

SRB's comments aside & this whole IAG / BMI thing .... VS is heading in the right direction, new routes, new aircraft & finally the upgrade of the LGW 744's.

I say let's concentrate what originally made VS one of the best airlines out there and get that 4 star rating back"
"
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
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mariner
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 39):
The words 'ancient' and 'history' spring to mind.

If we all went around bearing grudges nobody would be speaking to anyone.



I've born a grudge for that length of time, only one, but it is against someone who did my career great harm.

I think SRB is right to be very wary of British, and in this present case I was quite shocked that the over of BD was approved with so few carve-outs.

Nor do I understand the issues people have with the media coverage SRB gets, he still owns a darn fine airline. He come s from a long line of maverick British airline entrepreneurs who, thankfully, have refused to toe the Whitehall line.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
anstar
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:07 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 61):

No self respecting airline with any kind of realistic concern for its bottom line has 'a bar area'.

It's a gimmick typical of the Virgin brand. (along with a shade of lip stick..??)

Well the bar actually ads to VS' bottom line - like it or not.

You are obviously not a supporter of the Virgin brand or what i stands for. Instead of bashing it at every opportunity - why don't you just leave it alone. Support BA, that's fine - but stop nit picking VS at every opportunity - it is getting tiresome.

Despite what you may think, they have a healthy cash balance and are here to stay.

Every airline has it's pro's and cons and none are perfect.

[Edited 2012-04-24 13:09:32]
 
vv701
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 42):
I owuld guess that if LHR was not slot restricted VS would be flying to alot more destinations than they currently do.

Despite all SRB's blustering VS have made no serious attempt in recent years to significantly grow their LHR operations by acquiring new slots.

According to the LHR slot co-ordinator, Airport Coordination Ltd at:

http://www.acl-uk.org/reportsStatistics.aspx?id=98&subjectId=33

VS had 284 weekly slots at LHR at the start of the Summer 2004 season and 310 at the start of the Summer 2012 season,

Compare the growth in the number of BA slots of 456 from 3,742 to 4,198 in the same period.

Put another way in a free market - the sort of competitive environment that SRB is always talking to the media about - BA have added the equivalent of around one and one half complete VS LHR operations to their LHR portfolio while VS have not even managed to increase their LHR operations by ten per cent..

VS is a good airline. It's single larger-than-life problem is its half owner. Thirty years on he still sees himself as a folksy successor to Freddy Laker. He just needs to realise we are now in the 21st century and that things have moved on. Back then Airline Alliances did not exist. Back then Airline Regulation was widespread. Now everything except him is very, very different
 
SWALUV
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 66):
Compare the growth in the number of BA slots of 456 from 3,742 to 4,198 in the same period.

Is this present time? Does this include the merger??? If so this isn't a fair comparison as VS hasn't merged.
 
virgincrew
Posts: 420
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:31 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 66):
VS is a good airline. It's single larger-than-life problem is its half owner. Thirty years on he still sees himself as a folksy successor to Freddy Laker. He just needs to realise we are now in the 21st century and that things have moved on. Back then Airline Alliances did not exist. Back then Airline Regulation was widespread. Now everything except him is very, very different

I do agree with some of that....

VS need to move on from the whole BA thing and focus on making VS the best long haul airline it can be !
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
lhr380
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:44 pm

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 68):

VS does indeed have a "niche" but as VV has said, SRB does them no real favours...
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:48 pm

There is a simple yet in my mind wonderful solution to this.

VS becomes a member of IAG and therefore Oneworld and is included in all joint ventures/revenue sharing etc

BUT...... has its own routes within a combined BA/VS network from LHR.

In other words the two don't compete on the same routes.

What a great way to end all the bitterness and can you imagine the public reaction.

The advertising, slogans and bilboard opportunities would be the stuff of dreams bearing in mind the turbulent history of the two.

Oh and get them out of that sh*thole Terminal 3 to Terminal 5.

Can dream I suppose.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
virgincrew
Posts: 420
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 70):
VS becomes a member of IAG and therefore Oneworld

Will never happen.....
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
virgincrew
Posts: 420
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:02 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 69):
VS does indeed have a "niche" but as VV has said, SRB does them no real favours...

I do agree with that... I think a good role for SRB is more as, the face of the airline as far as publicity and not decision making and press releases etc...

The whole BA versus VS is soooo boring & so old, everyone needs to get over it.
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:22 pm

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 71):
Will never happen.....

We are a small spec of grit floating in the vast never ending vacuum of space my friend.

I'm sure stranger things have and will happen other than VS joining IAG and Oneworld.

You have to try and think out the box.

I really can't see any other alliance being interested in VS (too small, competition now too great etc) but they could be of value to IAG, Oneworld and increase their own value by combining two world class brands at the same airport.

The problem wouldn't be convincing VS it would be convincing IAG.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
avek00
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:24 pm

BA and VS will merge someday, just need VS to get just a bit sicker so the combination takes place under a failing firm scenario that can be exempted from the antitrust laws.
Live life to the fullest.
 
virgincrew
Posts: 420
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 74):
BA and VS will merge someday, just need VS to get just a bit sicker so the combination takes place under a failing firm scenario that can be exempted from the antitrust laws.
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 73):
We are a small spec of grit floating in the vast never ending vacuum of space my friend.

I'm sure stranger things have and will happen other than VS joining IAG and Oneworld.

You have to try and think out the box.

I really can't see any other alliance being interested in VS (too small, competition now too great etc) but they could be of value to IAG, Oneworld and increase their own value by combining two world class brands at the same airport.

The problem wouldn't be convincing VS it would be convincing IAG.

Won't happen ......

Oneworld is not the only alliance that would be interested in VS - seeing that most of Star Alliance already codeshare with VS & a member of Star owns 49% of VS.

VS is still a profitable airline, with a good bank balance.

I can see VS joining Star Alliance this year ...
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
virgincrew
Posts: 420
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:51 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 74):
just need VS to get just a bit sicker so the combination takes place under a failing firm scenario

VS isn't sick ........

It's a profitable airline, with a great product.

The airline has a loyal customer and they are continually upgrading their fleet and general product !

Forget all the crap on Skytrax and the downgrading to a 3* airline - sites like Skytrax are fixed and they only publish certain reviews.

People on Airliners.net just don't like to hear good things about VS - forget about all the hot air from SRB or Ridgway - Virgin Atlantic is a great airline.

The constant VS bashing is very boring .......
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:51 am

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 76):
- Virgin Atlantic is a great airline.

The constant VS bashing is very boring .......
VS is a great airline.

At the risk of sounding patronising it also sounds as if they have some damn fine crew working for them  

So much has changed though. This isn't just about BA and VS it's about VS realising that whatever decisions they make next are probably going to be the most important in the airlines history. They need to make sure they are rational and not fueled by some score to settle with the ghosts of Christmas past.

You have to remember that IAG is nowhere near firing on all cylinders yet ref IB, AA and now BD and neither is Oneworld ref other likely future developments.

VS at LHR is going to become less and less attractive to an alliance given its size.

VS wouldn't be becoming part of BA anymore than IB has or AF with KL or LH with Swiss etc

That is the beauty of a holding company.

It would be interesting to see who ended up flying where.

Say VS got the West Coast for instance....without BA operating the route VS frequecies to LAX would be 3 or 4 daily, SFO 3 daily.....the same with other routes......the synergies would be fantastic...........

Imagine the potential for VLA aircraft orders and cost elimination.....it's a no brainer !!!!

I can see the picture on the front pages of newspapers around the world of Messrs Walsh and Branson shaking hands after completing the deal and heralding a bright new era in UK civil aviation.

[Edited 2012-04-25 00:03:05]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
virgincrew
Posts: 420
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:58 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 77):
So much has changed though. This isn't just about BA and VS it's about VS realising that whatever decisions they make next are probably going to be the most important in the airlines history. They need to make sure they are rational and not fueled by some score to settle with the ghosts of Christmas past.

I couldn't agree more Mikey, the board of VS need to forget about the whole BA history and the IAG / BMI issue and focus on the their own business and make some harsh decisions.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 77):
At the risk of sounding patronising it also sounds as if they have some damn fine crew working for them

It doesn't sound patronising at all  
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
GDB
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:17 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 28):
Sir Richard Branson flew once only on a British airways Concorde, but didn't pay/refused to pay for thr ticket

He flew on it more than once, I recall one where he used his rights for a concession, not as big as the one for BA staff but many other airlines had agreements with BA here, including VS.
Though that was of course, a standby ticket. (Like we'd not let him on and give him another whinge opportunity!)

Some things off topic, can be instructive, around the turn on the Millennium, there was a seminar about aspects of life in the 21st Century. Including business.
Bill Gates spoke on his thoughts of the future of the net, computing. The CEO of Vodafone on the new generation of mobiles in development.
Then Branson. He spoke about how HE should run the UK National Lottery,
(Two successive governments had rebuffed him on this, despite his populist campaigning).
 
bastew
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:40 pm

I feel a little torn between VS and BA in all this. I started my flying career with VS before joining BA later on. I still have many fond memories of VS. They were a great company to work for. They paid much less than BA and we worked a lot harder but it was kind of like a big family. It didn't really feel like 'work'. We had so much fun. It was back in the days when SRB would still rock up every once in a while and play 'steward' on some flights.

Fast forward to now. I am absolutely gob smacked that Virgin wasn't successful in it's bid for BD. It is absolutely obvious that LH would have much preferred to sell BD to VS. So why didn't it happen? In my honest opinion (perhaps wrong) it was because of SRB and his huge ego. He would have assumed LH would be desperate to sell BD to VS!! They will settle for far less cash instead of handing over more slots to it's UK rival....the one that really was the whole point of them buying BD in the first place. So lets offer them a meagre amount of cash.

I think Virgins' biggest problem is SRB. He has a massive ego and really does believe that what anyone else will pay £120M to buy they will be much happier to pay half that....because it's to Virgin.

I must admit I grimace when I see SRB complaining in the press about their tiny 3% slot holding, while BA have been 'given on a plate' a huge portion. Errrmmmm, no, BA weren't given these. They purchased them on the open market.

Why did VS never increase their slot holding by a merger with BD years ago?

Why do they still lease out slot pairs to other airlines if in fact they are complaining they have so few.

Why have they not joined an alliance?

I think the honest answer is that its because SRB is too personally attached to the airline. What makes 'good business' he will not allow because he will lose a portion of control he has on his 'baby'. I bet he is scratching his head as to why SkyTeam or Star have not been knocking down the door, offering HIM money to join their alliance. God forbid Virgin should have to approach and pay anything to THEM. Virgin would be the jewel in any alliances crown!

I'm fortunate enough to still be a 'nominee' on one of my old Virgin colleagues staff travel (which is a much better deal than we have at BA BTW) so I get to travel VS often and across all the classes VS offer. I have to admit, I think Upper Class and Club World are pretty much on par these days (Tho the Clubhouse is much better than BA's lounges). This is a shame because Upper used to be miles ahead of CW. Their Premium Economy still offers a better proposition than BA does. And I guess their economy is pretty much on par with BA's. One thing I have noticed though is that the economy offering is very inconsistent, no fault of the crews. Mainly because on the last three out of five flights I took on VS they were working with less than the normal crew complement and it seemed it was economy that suffered.

I think the MAIN reason why passengers complain about Virgin in terms of service is because of expectations. Their marketing and publicity really raises expectations that passengers will receive something really special. When in reality the experience is very 'middle of the road'....not unlike BA. Years ago people were really taken by VS. They offered something new, fresh, trendy. Now many of these people have tried the likes of Qatar or Singapore....and VS just doesn't seem so great after all.
 
edina
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:10 pm

It's pretty much common knowledge that, prior to LH gaining control of BD, Sir Michael Bishop would never have sold BD to Virgin due to an intense personal dislike of Richard Branson.

This may be far fetched, but Sir Michael Bishops deal with LH may well have contained a "Do not sell to Branson clause"...stranger things have happened!
Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:08 pm

I still think BA and VS should work together to maximize potential out of LHR.

Where's the economic sense for BA and VS in LHR being a '2 home airline hub' when every other airline they compete with is a virtual sole proprietor at ITS hub ?

From a UK aviation standpoint talk about shooting yourself in the foot !!

Why am I the only one here that seems to be aware of this ??

[Edited 2012-04-26 11:15:54]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:20 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 21):
Back when they started there was no Oneworld, no Star Alliance, no Skyteam, no Emirates, no Qatar or Etihad Airways, no joint ventures, no anti-trust immunities and now there is no BD supplying feed.

How can they possibly compete when they have allowed themselves to become so obsolete ?

You should save that post. It hits the nail on the head.

The rest of the market has adapted. VS... is a modernized version of what it was. Back in the day, VS was a distinctly better experience than say NW to Europe. Now, DL, UA, and others have a far more competitive product.

My question is how will VS stay relevant when narrowbodies start to invade or bypass many of their traditional routes?
IMHO half the value of BMI is to re-allocate the slots with A320NEO/737MAX on TATL or other similar length missions.

Quoting macsog6 (Reply 3):
IMHO, there are certain airline executives who do things merely to keep their names and their company name in the press. We all know who they are as we see their names all the time. Moves such as the ones described herein are done, I suspect, just for the publicity. Thus, this is nothing.

   Nothing wrong with free advertising unless it makes you look noncompetitive. Something is off with VS. Why does it take them so long to turn a new route profitable?

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 61):
No self respecting airline with any kind of realistic concern for its bottom line has 'a bar area'.

This I disagree with. Too many 'road warriors' are heavy drinkers. While the bar doesn't raise the per-seat fare, it certainly will bias a good chunk of the premium market to an airline. It allows for easier sales. I can see the payoff for the bar. EK has certainly made it work.

However, VS is not pursuing a higher density J as can be 'tolerated' with a bar.


Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
rwk823
Posts: 18
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting SWALUV (Reply 67):
Quoting VV701 (Reply 66):Compare the growth in the number of BA slots of 456 from 3,742 to 4,198 in the same period.
Is this present time? Does this include the merger??? If so this isn't a fair comparison as VS hasn't merged.

No I believe the merger was during the summer 2012 season. But even if it does include the merger it is still relevant as VS had the opportunity to increase the slots through the same means as BA has.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 82):
From a UK aviation standpoint talk about shooting yourself in the foot !!

Why am I the only one here that seems to be aware of this ??

I think from a UK aviation standpoint it would be great. However, we are not talking about a UK aviation standpoint we are talking about a huge ego that will not relent. Added to the fact that UK competition laws may not except it as I believe every route VS is on, BA competes on including the fact they would gain an extra 5 frequencies in the LHR-NYC market. It just doesn't look viable.
 
vv701
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:47 pm

Quoting SWALUV (Reply 67):
Is this present time? Does this include the merger??? If so this isn't a fair comparison as VS hasn't merged.

No.

The figures exclude all the new slots that BA will directly gain through the purchase of BD. It only includes those it owned for this Summer season as of last February. So it does include the ex-BD six daily slot pairs that it bought from Lufthansa Group just before the latter put BD up for sale last year.

But if it had included all of the BD slots it would still be a more than fair comparison. BD was purchased by IAG in an open, competitive market in which VS shouted but failed to compete successfully. Again SRB was blustering on, living in the pre consolidation 20th century while BA was laying out their money in the 21st. If VS had really wanted the BD slots they could have competed for them properly instead of living BD (in this case meaning "Before Deregulation") by only appealing to the regulator

So with that in mind let us estimate the additional LHR slots BA have just acquired at, say, double the total that VS are currently operating. So now BA, in a totally free and highly competitive market, have added the equivalent of around three and one half VS operations to their own LHR operations over the last eight years. Sadly unless their top management can adapt to current market conditions, VS will continue to loose significance in the market place and become purely a niche operator and the UK will, like most other countries, be left with only one instead of two or, worse, the three significant international full-service airlines we had until the a week ago..
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:29 am

I feel I owe the VS supporters an apology.

I know I do tend to rant on about VS.

It's honestly not through any ill will I just feel that so much more could be achieved with a different approach.

We have reached a point where BA and VS (and the other European legacies) are not in the position that they once were.They now have to wring every last dime out of what they have got i.e LHR, FRA, CDG, MAD, AMS, ZRH etc

British Airways and Virgin Atlantic whether they like it or not will always have one very important thing in common.

Heathrow Airport.

Also whether they like it or not they should realise that the two of them together have made LHR different from other hubs.

If VS is serious about its future then it needs to realise that BA is not its problem. The direction the 'global' airline industry has gone in is its problem.

LHR is an 'overwhelming' reason for VS to join IAG and Oneworld given the routes they operate.

Having either BA or VS not both on any particular route ex LHR would be a great start.

They could then have the biggest possible aircraft, the least amount of frequencies and the lowest possible costs.

And what about the slots that would be freed up for heavens sake at an airport like LHR !

It would certainly add value to VS and give them the opportunity for exposure to any future new routes from LHR.

How could it possibly not add value to IAG and BA ?

Competition concerns ? This is LHR wer're talking about !!!

[Edited 2012-04-27 00:31:46]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
antonovman
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:47 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 86):

I feel I owe the VS supporters an apology.

I know I do tend to rant on about VS.
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 86):
LHR is an 'overwhelming' reason for VS to join IAG and Oneworld given the routes they operate.


Wow this a new direction for you Mikey.

Have you been hitting the sherry bottle already   
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:02 am

Quoting antonovman (Reply 87):
Wow this a new direction for you Mikey.

Have you been hitting the sherry bottle already

Lol. No.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:11 am

Quoting antonovman (Reply 87):

Look at it this way.

BA and VS will 'never' achieve the full potential of LHR working apart. Especially with a 3rd runway a million miles away.

The situation at LHR (BA & VS) is a dream scenario for the pairs oversea's competition.

Enough said.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
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mariner
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:19 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 86):
LHR is an 'overwhelming' reason for VS to join IAG and Oneworld given the routes they operate.

Whenever I've flown Virgin Atlantic - which was a lot when I was living in the US - I did it because it isn't BA, isn't part of an alliance and and there was no danger I'd find myself on another airline, not of my choosing.

I like competition, I like choice. There's no question in my mind that what is happening now between Qantas and Virgin Australia is a win-win for the passenger.

The moment VA comes under the IAG umbrella it will start to lose those things that make it unique.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:25 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 90):
Whenever I've flown Virgin Atlantic - which was a lot when I was living in the US - I did it because it isn't BA, isn't part of an alliance and and there was no danger I'd find myself on another airline, not of my choosing.

I like competition, I like choice. There's no question in my mind that what is happening now between Qantas and Virgin Australia is a win-win for the passenger.

The moment VA comes under the IAG umbrella it will start to lose those things that make it unique.

mariner

That's all very well and good but of little help to VS.

You have to ask yourself this...

Do the benefits of VS becoming part of IAG ouweigh the benefits to IAG of VS potentially and probably going bust at some point in the future ?

The way things are going that is a very likely outcome for VS and where does that leave you for choice mariner ??

When you consider though that the Virgin brand now has an airline operating nearly on every continent.....I think the benefits would be consdierable for IAG going forward.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
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mariner
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:37 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 91):
Do the benefits of VS becoming part of IAG ouweigh the benefits to IAG of VS potentially and probably going bust at some point in the future ?

Why is that the alternative? It seems predetermined on your part.

If the people running Virgin Atlantic are smart they'll figure it out, they have up until now. If they can't then maybe they won't survive.

I see virtue in your IAG proposal - for IAG. I see no virtue for those of us who don't like conglomerates.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 91):
The way things are going that is a very likely outcome for VS and where does that leave you for choice mariner ??

Easy. I'll fly Emirates, which, down here, is my preferred airline anyway and doesn't belong to any alliance.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
mikey72
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:53 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 92):
I'll fly Emirates
Quoting mariner (Reply 92):
I see no virtue for those of us who don't like conglomerates.

Think about those two sentences for a second. Airlines like EK are the very reason for the steps being taken by the European legacies etc

You only have to look to history to see that sometimes companies are steered in the most unlikely of directions by events that transpire in the industry in which they operate.

Events they may not like but are powerless to do anything about.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
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mariner
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:22 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 93):
Think about those two sentences for a second. Airlines like EK are the very reason for the steps being taken by the European legacies etc

Alliances - as elaborations of code shares - began long before Emirates was the force it is now.

Qantas tried to persuade me that it's "special arrangement" with American Airlines was great - for me - before Emirates started flying.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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moo
Posts: 4891
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:31 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 37):
So he shouldn't have stuck it to BA over, say, the dirty tricks campaign?

How does "voluntarily colluding with your major competitor to fix fuel prices on several occasions, benefiting significantly from said collusion, only to turn around and rat the other party out so you can avoid the £250Million fine that is to result" sound?

I was so glad when Cathey Pacific did the exact same thing to Virgin Atlantic in 2010. Serves them right.

Virgin Atlantic aren't any better than British Airways, when it comes down to it.
 
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mariner
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:38 am

Quoting moo (Reply 95):
Virgin Atlantic aren't any better than British Airways, when it comes down to it.

When did I say Virgin Atlantic - or SRB - is 100% pure and innocent?

British has a special place in my heart. My father was an engineer for Imperial then BOAC then British - I was born at an Imperial flying boat station in the Middle East - but that doesn't blind me to the business tactics, on either side.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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moo
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:10 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 96):
When did I say Virgin Atlantic - or SRB - is 100% pure and innocent?

I didn't say you did, but Virgin have had their pound of flesh, and then some.

And still they want more - so it becomes clear that the problem between these two does not lie with British Airways, or at least it no longer does.
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 1022
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:11 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 90):
The moment VA comes under the IAG umbrella it will start to lose those things that make it unique.

Though, in a theoretical purchase of VA by IAG (which is all it would ever be) arguably by keeping VA as a separate brand you could invest some of the savings in back office functions, engineering, IT etc in new innovations and frills that used to make VA different from the competition and help it focus it on its niche.

Lots of companies own different brands that serve different customer bases in the same market. Witness Starwood and its W Hotels brand for example.
 
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mariner
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RE: VS Fighting BA

Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:56 am

Quoting moo (Reply 97):
And still they want more.

Sure, they do. Why not?

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 98):
Lots of companies own different brands that serve different customer bases in the same market. Witness Starwood and its W Hotels brand for example.

Food and liquor companies are expert at it. I doubt many members of the public know who Diageo is or what their brands are, but those brands themselves may be famous. But they don't fragment the market.

There aren't too many occasions in the airline industry when an airline has been acquired by an airline of the same national registry and maintained as a separate brand - some but not many. Where is British Caledonian now?

In the US there may be several surviving acquired airlines flying for the acquiring legacy - but it is the name of the acquirer on the side of the aircraft.

When a major acquires a major, only one name survives. It is the relentless search for synergies and the ever-elusive bottom line.

mariner

[Edited 2012-04-27 03:59:00]

[Edited 2012-04-27 04:28:01]
aeternum nauta

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