UA Beefy Hawaii S12

alexinwa · Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:49 pm

Looking on-line I came across what seems like a rather large increase in capacity to Hawaii over the summer.

LAX 6x daily (give or take) with the 753/757/738
SFO 5x daily 777/764/763/757
IAD 764
NRT 744

Wonder if they are biting back at the NW airline that likes to fly lots of 738's to Hawaii?

UAL777UK · Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:54 pm

Thats surely not the full daily schedule is it? What about ORD, IAH, GUM, DEN. Am I missing any? Either way, UA havd a shed load of metal flying to the islands daily.

BoeingGuy · Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:56 pm

Quoting alexinwa (Thread starter):
Wonder if they are biting back at the NW airline that likes to fly lots of 738's to Hawaii?

Maybe, except that secret airline from the northwest that you refer to doesn't overlap any routes with UA that I can think of. I don't think adding capacity on LAX-HNL is going to directly affect the 738 operator to Hawaii.

alexinwa · Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:56 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 1):
Thats surely not the full daily schedule is it? What about ORD, IAH, GUM, DEN. Am I missing any? Either way, UA havd a shed load of metal flying to the islands daily.

I was just hitting the highlights

alexinwa · Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:01 pm

Full:
ORD 777
DEN 763
GUM 777
IAH 764
LAX 753
LAX 753
LAX 753
LAX 753
LAX 757
LAX 738
EWR 764
SFO 764
SFO 777
SFO 757
SFO 777
SFO 763
NRT 744
IAD 764

ikramerica · Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:09 pm

This hnl only? Seems low otherwise

sq_ek_freak · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting alexinwa (Thread starter):
LAX 6x daily (give or take) with the 753/757/738

The 738 and 753 will be quite unpleasant rides across the Pacific unfortunately. Flew UA years ago when they had the 763 on the HNL-LAX run and it was a really enjoyable pleasant flight, even in Y+. I tend to stick to HA when I fly to the islands, have to say I prefer them over any of the other airlines flying to Hawaii from the mainland.

codc10 · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:11 pm

Not to mention the other islands:

OGG

LAX: 3x 753, 1x 752
SFO: 2x 753, 1x 763, 1x 752

KOA

SFO: 1x 763, 1x 752
LAX: 1x 753, 1x 752
DEN: 1x 763

LIH

SFO: 1x 752
LAX: 2x 752

ITO:

SFO: 1x 738 (weekly)
LAX: 1x 738

plus weekly SNA-HNL on 73G

bohica · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:19 pm

Don't forget, there is also the island hopper from GUM. 3X weekly 738 I believe.

warreng24 · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting alexinwa (Thread starter):
NRT 744

wow! That's quite a significant departure from normal.

I noticed that HNL-GUM is down to once daily now.

Rdh3e · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting alexinwa (Reply 4):
Full:

Not Full Necessarily

Based on the full month of July:

HNL:

DEN - 1 daily 767
EWR - 1 daily 767
GUM - 1 daily 777
IAD - 1 daily 767
IAH - 1 daily 767
LAX - 1 daily 737, ~6 daily 757
MAJ - .4 x 737
NRT - 1 daily 747
ORD - 1 daily 777
SFO - .3 daily 737, 2 daily 757, .85 daily 767, 2 daily 777
SNA - 1 daily 737

ITO:

LAX - 1 daily 737
SFO - 4 departures on 737

KOA:

DEN - 9 ttl 767
LAX - 2 daily 757
SFO - 1 daily 757, 1 daily 767

LIH:

DEN: 4 departures ttl 767
LAX: 2 daily 757
SFO: 1 daily 757

OGG:

DEN - 9 ttl 767
LAX - 4 daily 757
ORD - 4 ttl 777
SFO - 3 daily 757, 1 daily 767

Totals about 1100 departures from the mainland to the islands for the month of July according to OAG.

[Edited 2012-04-19 08:36:58]

washingtonian · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 10):
IAD - 2 daily 767

? Typo?

joeljack · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:35 pm

The problem is Continental management thinking the PMUA folks are ok with long haul flights on narrowbody's. No way, we are not. I can speak for myself, my parents and some of my coworkers too. We all choose widebody's over narrowbodys. It just makes for a much better experience, less claustrophobic, smoother ride, just an all around better feeling etc. This guy is loyal to UA but on flight longer than 5 hours, he is going to look for widebody or look to someone that does offer widebody. This includes Hawaii and Europe, no way you'll get me on a 757 for those flights!

If UA continues to make changes like this, they will loose my business.

Rdh3e · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 11):
Typo?

Yes, IAD/IAH same thing right

Fixed now.

kgaiflyer · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 1):
Either way, UA have a shed load of metal flying to the islands daily.

A "shed" load??

But . . . sheds are small, yes ?

Rdh3e · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 14):
A "shed" load??

But . . . sheds are small, yes ?

Yes they are.... But either way, UA will have about 8,000 seats a day going to the islands.

UAL777UK · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 14):
A "shed" load??

But . . . sheds are small, yes ?

Sorry, over here despite a shed being small that means a lot.

ikramerica · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:47 pm

Interesting that lax is going all narrowbody w increased frequency. Also looks like more 753s dedicated to Hawaii.

Can't imagine loads will be great on all those frequencies. Our lax-ogg evening flight is nearly empty 8 days out. The return 767 is nearly full. But I do think the 757 we are on returns full.

ordbosewr · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:50 pm

Quoting joeljack (Reply 12):
This guy is loyal to UA but on flight longer than 5 hours, he is going to look for widebody or look to someone that does offer widebody. This includes Hawaii and Europe, no way you'll get me on a 757 for those flights!

I understand your POV, but I don't get it. PMUA always flew 757's to Hawaii. I mean into LIH, for example, where the 75 is the largest plane that can get in there. I don't get it.

I am on 757's cross-country that are longer than the west coast to Hawaii. I find this argument very challenging to really live with. I mean. By this definition they should only fly widebodies from NYC, BOS to SFO & LAX. We all know they do not and PMUA has not for years. (AA is the only remaining carrier that does and who knows if that will last the C11.)
It seems like an argument made to hate something that may be perceived as a PMCO philosophy, which it is not.

CONTACREW · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting joeljack (Reply 12):
The problem is Continental management thinking the PMUA folks are ok with long haul flights on narrowbody's. No way, we are not. I can speak for myself, my parents and some of my coworkers too. We all choose widebody's over narrowbodys. It just makes for a much better experience, less claustrophobic, smoother ride, just an all around better feeling etc. This guy is loyal to UA but on flight longer than 5 hours, he is going to look for widebody or look to someone that does offer widebody. This includes Hawaii and Europe, no way you'll get me on a 757 for those flights!

If UA continues to make changes like this, they will loose my business.

Flying a 757 or a 737 west coast-hawaii is basically the same as flying a trans con. Both take nearly the same amount of time, sometimes the trans con is longer then LA-Hawaii flights. People making it seem like flying a 757 or a 737 across the water on a 5 1/2 hour flight is bad when in reality its not. Lets not forget sUA also likes to send its smallest aircraft on EWR-SFO which can sometimes take nearly 7 hours from gate to gate. Now thats torture.

kgaiflyer · Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting joeljack (Reply 12):
The problem is Continental management thinking the PMUA folks are ok with long haul flights on narrowbody's. No way, we are not. I can speak for myself, my parents and some of my coworkers too. We all choose widebody's over narrowbodys. It just makes for a much better experience, less claustrophobic, smoother ride, just an all around better feeling etc. This guy is loyal to UA but on flight longer than 5 hours, he is going to look for widebody or look to someone that does offer widebody. This includes Hawaii and Europe, no way you'll get me on a 757 for those flights!

If UA continues to make changes like this, they will lose my business.

Okay.

If they offer everything from 777s down to 737Gs (depending on departure airport, destination, and timing) then you can pretty much elect how you want to fly, yes?

So, what's the real problem?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw, I've often said to myself "If UA keeps flying 145XRs between IAH and IAD, then I'll fly some other way." So what did I just book? ELP-IAH-IAD on an E145 and a 145XR .

Funny how deeds and words never match up

[Edited 2012-04-19 08:58:19]

MSPNWA · Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:13 pm

That's an impressive increase. I believe last July at HNL for both UA/CO it was:

ORD: 1x 772
SFO: 2x 772, 2x 763
LAX: 3x 763, 2x 752, 2x 738
DEN: 1x 763
IAH: 1x 764
EWR: 1x 764
SNA: 1x 738
NRT: 1x 772
GUM: 1x 764

LAX might be a little smaller this year, but the rest are either about steady or increases. And then we have the new IAD service to throw in there too. UA certainly has an impressive network to Hawaii.

SANFan · Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting alexinwa (Thread starter):
Wonder if they are biting back at the nw airline that likes to fly lots of 738's to Hawaii?

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 2):
Maybe, except that secret airline from the northwest that you refer to doesn't overlap any routes with UA that I can think of. I don't think adding capacity on LAX-HNL is going to directly affect the 738 operator to Hawaii

Absolutely. For example, UA doesn't mind making all their SAN-Hawaii customers change planes in either LA or SF. Thanks to Alaska, one of these days United might notice they hardly have any SAN-Hawaii customers any more...

This is just more proof for those who keep wondering when Alaska will start flying between LAX/SFO and the Islands, or why they don't.

bb

codc10 · Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting joeljack (Reply 12):
The problem is Continental management thinking the PMUA folks are ok with long haul flights on narrowbody's.

The vast majority of flights to Hawaii are on narrowbodies these days, so I'm not sure that argument holds water. In fact, UA has fairly extensive WB service to Hawaii.

UA has about 8-12 daily widebodies from the mainland to Hawaii, including 4-6 each day to the West Coast. That compares favorably to DL (2 ATL, 1 SLC, 1 LAX), AA (1 ORD, 3 DFW), US (0), AS (0), or G4 (0 when they begin).

HA is the only airline consistently operating widebodies on routes from the mainland to Hawaii.

phllax · Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 18):
I understand your POV, but I don't get it. PMUA always flew 757's to Hawaii. I mean into LIH, for example, where the 75 is the largest plane that can get in there. I don't get it.

Don't forget that before the 757's most of these routes were flown with DC-8's till the last day of service!

Also - remember that the domestic 763's are getting transitioned to international configuration and redeployed out of EWR.

xdlx · Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting joeljack (Reply 12):

I bet you have no problem riding in a BBJ !

strfyr51 · Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:22 pm

the 737's to ITO are "pathfinders". they're there to see if there's interest there and when there either is or isn't then at least we'll know. ALOHA maxed their ITO mainland airplanes out daily and ALL they Had were 737's If we could fly inter-island it might not BE that way but since we can't?? It IS what it IS. It sure isn't beacuse we Can't..

ikramerica · Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:03 pm

Ultimately UA may go 753 on every possible route from west coast to Hawaii. It's the perfect plane for these routes. Turn times aren't important. Weather delays rare. high capacity and low casm to replace 763s.

You'll only see wide bodies out of sfo to rotate them into longer range routes. And 777s may bow out for 763s.

strfyr51 · Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 27):

The 777's to Hawaii are all turn airplanes with intermediate stops IN hawaii and keep going on to
Asia GUM to NRT or KIX

ikramerica · Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 28):
The 777's to Hawaii are all turn airplanes with intermediate stops IN hawaii and keep going on to
Asia GUM to NRT or KIX

Yes, a 763 or 764 can still do this. Or for Guam, as traffic increases with military moving there, 2 763s.

Either way, whatever WB stays there, it will be due to that need, not due to the idea that customers need widebody aircraft on 5 hour flights. If UA could get a 757 to do DEN-Hawaii, I'm sure they would...

drerx7 · Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:08 pm

Didn't they use them on DEN HNL before.

AADC10 · Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:09 pm

I am not so sure that the increase is really that great. They added the existing CO flights and downguaged the ghetto birds that used operate during peak season out of LAX. After all of the ghetto birds are converted almost all of the flights to Hawaii out of California will be narrowbodies.

thebyte · Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:48 pm

Think about it in a year or two. Southwest will be running their fleet of 737-800's from multiple west coast locations over to Hawaii. They will offer lower fares and will appeal greatly to the leasure market that Hawaii is. Their 737-800's will burn less fuel and have a better profitability numbers than what UA's mixed 757/widebody fleet can do on the same route. The only way UA will be able to compete is by putting the their own 737-800's on the same route.

They are just preparing for Southwest's brudal onslaught. Likely SW will command a significant portion of west-coast to Hawaii flying once they start going.

The one area where UA will have an ACE is non-west coast markets where SW can't fly direct from... IAH, ORD, EWR, IAD, DEN. Probably another reason why they started the IAD-HNL route. They plan to retain the higher-fare (more FC/BusinessFirst seats sold) east-coast to HNL market.

panam330 · Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 29):
If UA could get a 757 to do DEN-Hawaii, I'm sure they would...

They already use them on DEN-Hawaii.

codc10 · Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting thebyte (Reply 32):
They will offer lower fares

Those days are mostly behind us. WN's relatively high costs prohibit a model that prices substantially below market. I think they will rely on the strength of their brand on the West Coast to fill their flights to Hawaii, not demand stimulated by dramatically low fares. That's more consistent with Allegiant's business, currently.

Ford3motor · Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:02 pm

a few notes...

Quoting phllax (Reply 24):
LIH, for example, where the 75 is the largest plane that can get in there. I don't get it.

As mentioned in reply 10, UA converts DEN-LIH from a 757 to a 767 for the summer.

The ORD-OGG Saturday flight is actually ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD so KOA sees a 777 also.

Although I don't believe they are operating it this summer, one of the two Saturday DEN-HNL nonstops is a 757.

Hard to say about 2-class domestic 777 Hawaii flying in the future. I don't believe there are plans to reconfigure the interiors yet, which would indicate they will continue on some Hawaiian routes for awhile.

slcdeltarumd11 · Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:05 pm

People seem too desperate to give Alaska credit on hawaii. Hawaii may be profitable for them but it's not like they are dominating mainland to Hawaii service as some make it seem like they are still pretty small compared to alot of airlines in number of passengers carried compared to say united and serve different airports. They moved in on good opportunities but those maybe taken now and allegiant is rolling in to crash the hawaii party.

den moves back down to a 757 after summer and they don't sell all the coach seats West bound iirc

mogandoCI · Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:08 pm

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 34):
Those days are mostly behind us. WN's relatively high costs prohibit a model that prices substantially below market. I think they will rely on the strength of their brand on the West Coast to fill their flights to Hawaii, not demand stimulated by dramatically low fares. That's more consistent with Allegiant's business, currently.

Agreed.

I always attempt to price WN tickets against the majors on coast-to-coast flights out of NYC, and WN is nearly never the lowest cost option (that crown goes to DL).

N1120A · Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:28 pm

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 6):
Flew UA years ago when they had the 763 on the HNL-LAX run and it was a really enjoyable pleasant flight, even in Y+.

I just flew back from HNL to LAX on a 763.

Quoting joeljack (Reply 12):

The problem is Continental management thinking the PMUA folks are ok with long haul flights on narrowbody's. No way, we are not. I can speak for myself, my parents and some of my coworkers too.

That's not a good argument on this point. West Coast-Hawaii is shorter than to the East Coast.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 26):
If we could fly inter-island it might not BE that way but since we can't??

United CAN fly interisland any time it wants. It just won't.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 27):
And 777s may bow out for 763s.

I don't see that. The 763s are being converted to international configuration and they are still keeping the 6 domestic configured 777s. More likely that its a combination of 753s and 772As, with some 738 backfill.

Rdh3e · Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:57 pm

Quoting Ford3motor (Reply 35):
Hard to say about 2-class domestic 777 Hawaii flying in the future. I don't believe there are plans to reconfigure the interiors yet, which would indicate they will continue on some Hawaiian routes for awhile.

Anyone care to venture how amazing the CASM is on a 348 seat 772?

http://united.com/web/en-US/content/.../inflight/aircraft/777/200/v5.aspx

drerx7 · Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting thebyte (Reply 32):
Their 737-800's will burn less fuel and have a better profitability numbers than what UA's mixed 757/widebody fleet can do on the same route. The only way UA will be able to compete is by putting the their own 737-800's on the same route.

I don't think that is true at all. A full 753 and the high capacity 777 of UA has better CASM than any 738 across that distance, added with payload...I'm not extremely well versed, but I think you may be wrong on this. UA tried the 738 and removed them in favor of more favorable aircraft.

Rdh3e · Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 40):
I don't think that is true at all. A full 753 and the high capacity 777 of UA has better CASM than any 738 across that distance, added with payload...I'm not extremely well versed, but I think you may be wrong on this. UA tried the 738 and removed them in favor of more favorable aircraft.

Also, I know you guys are talking West Coast - HA, but think about all the Long Haul that UA does to the islands, EWR-HNL is 10.5 hour block, IAD-HNL is 10.5 hour block, ORD-HNL is 9 hours, ORD-OGG is 9 hours, IAH-HNL is 8.5, all of them 3900 miles or more and that's not to mention DEN which is 7.5 hours and about 3800mi. This depth of flying is a huge part of what makes UA number 1 to the islands, and because of it there will always be UA widebodies going to the islands.

jaybird · Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:42 am

Quoting alexinwa (Reply 4):

Quoting alexinwa (Reply 4):
Full:
ORD 777
DEN 763
GUM 777
IAH 764
LAX 753
LAX 753
LAX 753
LAX 753
LAX 757
LAX 738
EWR 764
SFO 764
SFO 777
SFO 757
SFO 777
SFO 763
NRT 744
IAD 764

Remember - Summer is one of the peaks in Hawaii. Traditionally United has always added seasonal flights to Hawaii for summer. Then flights will be cut back at the end of August. They actually do this throughout the year. When they hit slow periods they either cut back on daily flights - or some flights don't operate every day of the week.

They have increased capacity of some citypairs. Guam is now a 777 vs 764 when it was PMCO and the flight runs ORD-HNL-GUM-HNL-ORD. Someone made the comment about "only one flight a day to Guam now?" It's been one nonstop flight a day for years - they still operate the island hopper on multiple days of the week. Guam fares are high - there's a $400+ fuel surcharge on a roundtrip.

Chicago has been 1 777 daily for a long time. Denver one 767 though I thought that was switched to a 764. The 764 legs to Denver, Houston, Dulles and Newark are all exempt from complimentary premiere upgrades - that's how I remember 764 to Denver. For some reason the 764 SFO leg is not exempt from complimentary upgrades. There's no change in Houston - that's been a 764 for a long time. LAX has a lot of flights - but I don't know what the change in seat capacity is - summer is usually 777/767/757s .. now it's 753 and 738. No change to the Newark 764. 5 SFO flights is not unusual for summer. I think PMUA flew a 744 to Tokyo last summer - they move between that, 777s and 767s. The IAD flight is new.

From my perspective and being here for a long time - it's a different mix of equipment than "normal" - but it's United giving more seats to Hawaii for the summer when our hotels definately need them. Fares also rise mid-June to late August. Though with the state of airfares these days it's hard to see that.

Also - we've had some of our employees on the 738 flights - they like them.

slcdeltarumd11 · Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:09 am

The 757-300 certainly has a lower per seat cost if you can fill then the 738s. The 757-300s hold alot of people

drerx7 · Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:44 am

Iah-hnl has been a 777 for this spring, but I believe that has been 764 mod related.

codc10 · Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting JayBird (Reply 42):
I think PMUA flew a 744 to Tokyo last summer - they move between that, 777s and 767s.

It's been some years since UA flew the 744 on HNL-NRT, I believe the last time was circa 2008 but I'm not certain.

I don't think United ever regularly scheduled the 767 on that route, though. The three-cabin 763ERs are almost exclusively Europe and South America. Any 767s in Hawaii on the sUA side are in their domestic configuration (not for long).

N1120A · Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 43):

The 757-300 certainly has a lower per seat cost if you can fill then the 738s. The 757-300s hold alot of people

...and burn relatively little gas.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 45):
I don't think United ever regularly scheduled the 767 on that route, though. The three-cabin 763ERs are almost exclusively Europe and South America.

Yeah, I don't think UA has ever done a 3 class 767 over the Pacific.

RWA380 · Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:27 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
United CAN fly interisland any time it wants. It just won't.

It has before, nothing substantial, but I've flown UA DC-10's HNL-OGG and a 777 OGG-KOA before.

calpsafltskeds · Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 47):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
United CAN fly interisland any time it wants. It just won't.

It has before, nothing substantial, but I've flown UA DC-10's HNL-OGG and a 777 OGG-KOA before.

I think you've been on round robin flights that have flown routings like ORD-HNL-OGG-ORD.

Regarding interisland and Hawaii, I think UA should consider a few mainland-HNL 738s and extend them to KOA, OGG and LIH. This would provide connections and cross connections from several hubs and fit the flow west and eastbound. Some thing like these routings, but the outer island city could be tied to any city where a 738 arrives/departs. These aircraft would be AM westbound 2pm out of HNL, 5pm from outer island and 2100 eastbound:
SAN-HNL-KOA-HNL-SAN
SEA-HNL-LIH-HNL-SEA
YVR-HNL-OGG-HNL-YVR
Other possible West Coast cities: SMF, PDX, SNA, LAS. ITO could be considered, but there is already NS service to LAX and the market may be a bit thin.
Fairly cheap additions for numerous online connections to and from the outer islands from IAH/IAD/EWR/ORD/DEN. The question would be gates and handling costs of peaking the operation at HNL.

n471wn · Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 48):
Regarding interisland and Hawaii, I think UA should consider a few mainland-HNL 738s and extend them to KOA, OGG and LIH

Like HA they are not that smart----Alaska has beat them in a market they used to own.....

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