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Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:21 pm
by mark2fly1034
Not sure if posted but a plane just went down in the Gulf of Mexico. Rumors are the pilot is incapacitated.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...L/history/20120419/1230Z/KASD/KSRQ

Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:27 pm
by comair25
Says he was traveling at FL270, most likely decompression.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...ive-plane-circling-gulf-of-mexico/

Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:27 pm
by ouboy79
Been watching this for about a half hour or so now. Not good. :-/

Air Force reported the plane's windows were iced/fogged over and pilot was not responding.

Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:29 pm
by Oroka
Oh my, that is not a good flight path at all.

Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:32 pm
by mark2fly1034
It was a Cessna 421. Wonder if we will see something changed to do with the quick oxygen mask that should be available if that happens within 5 seconds.

Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:33 pm
by EGGD
That does not look like a great situation. Let's hope for a positive outcome, despite how unlikely it seems at this point.

Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:39 pm
by rcair1
Duplicate topics, but this ones seems to be the most active.

News reports are stating crashed and flightaware data is not valid for last 3 minutes.

One can hope that the crash was not violent and coastguard can respond (they are alerted, but I don't know how far away) - but that is slim hope.

Windows fogged - how many on board?

Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:44 pm
by comair25
Flightaware was showing he was descending at almost 2k FPM just below 10k feet. Hopefully it leveled out a bit.

Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:44 pm
by MSPNWA
Doesn't look good at all. So sad. And of course this immediately reminds me of Payne Stewart's plane crash.

Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:49 pm
by redrooster3
Apparently crashed: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...L/history/20120419/1230Z/KASD/KSRQ


They are saying that it would've ran out of fuel by 12:30 EST, its not 12:50 EST.

Source

Update: Confirmed crashed, Rescuers flying to the scene.

[Edited 2012-04-19 10:09:37]

Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:19 pm
by chuchoteur
Quoting rcair1 (Reply 6):
Windows fogged - how many on board?

Just the pilot it seems...

Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:27 pm
by mark2fly1034
Now what would cause it to do all the circles I wold of thought the plane would of flown straight even if wind pushed it it would not make it to a circle. So I wonder in one engine went out as well in this case I would guess the right one with all the right turns but it is not all fitting together. Unless it was on autopilot but why would it be holding or what would make it do all the circles?

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:41 pm
by Gatorman96
Quoting Mark2Fly1034 (Reply 11):
Now what would cause it to do all the circles I wold of thought the plane would of flown straight even if wind pushed it it would not make it to a circle. So I wonder in one engine went out as well in this case I would guess the right one with all the right turns but it is not all fitting together. Unless it was on autopilot but why would it be holding or what would make it do all the circles?

I was trying to work out the same thing. The only scenario I could come up with (assuming depressurization) is that the pilot passed out onto the controls that caused a continuous left-handed bank.

Towards the end of the track, with fuel running low, the #2 engine may have gone out first, with asymmetric power overcoming the unconscious pilot, causing a right handed turn. 100% speculation.

Thoughts and prayers to the pilot and his family...

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:50 pm
by MountainFlyer
Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 12):
I was trying to work out the same thing. The only scenario I could come up with (assuming depressurization) is that the pilot passed out onto the controls that caused a continuous left-handed bank.

Towards the end of the track, with fuel running low, the #2 engine may have gone out first, with asymmetric power overcoming the unconscious pilot, causing a right handed turn. 100% speculation.



Not likely an engine quitting. If that were the case, without any pilot inputs, it likely would have rolled over and crashed. That's probably what happened towards the end with the very tight circle you see.

Without autopilot, it is very difficult for a small plane to stay straight and level without at least small pilot inputs from time to time. Even just the weight of the pilot's hand on the yoke or a slight imbalance in the weight distribution on a small plane is enough. It's much easier to trim for a nose level attitude, but for banking, it's not so easy.

The turning may have been a blessing in disguise. It's a very unfortunate situation for the pilot, but had the plane continued straight forward, it's likely it would have crashed on land increasing the possibility of more injuries or fatalities.

[Edited 2012-04-19 10:55:55]

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:54 pm
by PHX787
Caused a real tizzy over at NORAD:

http://www.norad.mil/News/2012/041912.html

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:12 pm
by mark2fly1034

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:15 pm
by Type-Rated
If it was a loss of pressure and was slowly spiraling down wouldn't the pilot have regained consciousness when he got down to 12K feet or so?

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:32 pm
by packcheer
not if he was at altitude long enough. There would be no oxygen left for him to remain alive. The pilot would most likely have already passed away from lack of oxygen while at altitude, so decreasing altitude would have done nothing for him.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:33 pm
by mikect
Quoting type-rated (Reply 16):
If it was a loss of pressure and was slowly spiraling down wouldn't the pilot have regained consciousness when he got down to 12K feet or so?

I was thinking the same thing, but according to Flightaware, it looks like the plane was flying in circles at altitudes up past 30,000 feet for more than three hours. I would assume at the very least it would take some time to regain consciousness after that long at altitude without oxygen, if you could at all. Sadly, I don't think he was below 12,000 feet for more than a few minutes.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:33 pm
by MountainFlyer
Quoting type-rated (Reply 16):
If it was a loss of pressure and was slowly spiraling down wouldn't the pilot have regained consciousness when he got down to 12K feet or so?

If you look at the altitude track on the bottom of the FlightAware page, you can see he didn't descend until near the end, presumably when he ran out of fuel on at least one engine. In fact, with some variation, the altitude actually trended up. That is probably because as the plane burned off fuel, without the pilot compensating for the loss of weight with trim, the plane would actually climb.

A well-trimmed plane in relatively stable conditions will maintain its altitude or at least within a few hundred feet fairly well.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 13):
Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 12):
I was trying to work out the same thing. The only scenario I could come up with (assuming depressurization) is that the pilot passed out onto the controls that caused a continuous left-handed bank.

Towards the end of the track, with fuel running low, the #2 engine may have gone out first, with asymmetric power overcoming the unconscious pilot, causing a right handed turn. 100% speculation.



Not likely an engine quitting. If that were the case, without any pilot inputs, it likely would have rolled over and crashed. That's probably what happened towards the end with the very tight circle you see.

I reread your post again, and I believe I misunderstood you the first time. I think you and I are referring to the same point where an engine likely quit. Sorry for the misread on my part.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:35 pm
by Aeroflot001
Quoting type-rated (Reply 16):
If it was a loss of pressure and was slowly spiraling down wouldn't the pilot have regained consciousness when he got down to 12K feet or so?

Well unfortunately he could have died due to the prolonged lack of oxygen.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:42 pm
by captainstefan
I had a speculation that the left hand turn was input and set into the autopilot ( I don't know if it's capable of holding a certain degree of bank) - But that would explain why the plane continued to drift as it flew in circles, being pushed by the wind. My first thought was potentially a CO leak into the cabin, incapacitating the pilot, but the windows frosting up definitely points toward a lack of pressurization.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:49 pm
by MountainFlyer
Quoting captainstefan (Reply 21):
I had a speculation that the left hand turn was input and set into the autopilot ( I don't know if it's capable of holding a certain degree of bank) - But that would explain why the plane continued to drift as it flew in circles, being pushed by the wind.

I'm pretty sure the plane wasn't on autopilot. Autopilots generally either fly a specified heading or are linked to one of the navigation instruments (VOR, GPS, etc). Also, the altitude varies suggesting no autopilot. Also, the turns are not constant. It starts with a very slow right turn, then left hand circles, then tight right-hand circles at the end.

Like I said earlier, it takes very little to turn a small plane. Even just tiny variations in weight or imperfections in the controls or control surfaces or the slightest pressure on the yoke or a little bit of turbulence can cause the plane to enter a bank. Simply the weight of the pilot's hand on the control is enough.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:55 pm
by NASCARAirforce
The tail number is N48DL a Cessna 421

I've been getting emailed all day because I have a couple of photos of it on airport-data.com that the news agencies want to use.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:28 pm
by rfields5421
Quoting MikeCT (Reply 18):
I would assume at the very least it would take some time to regain consciousness after that long at altitude without oxygen, if you could at all.

No one could recover from a lack of oxygen at that altitude for that long. It might not be enough to cause death, but would definitely be enough to destory higher brain function.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 13):
The turning may have been a blessing in disguise.

The turning gives us a pretty good clue as to what happened. Had the aircraft continued on a straight course it would have flown over Florida and out into the Atlantic / Bermuda Triangle. Possibly the authorities would not have recognized the seriousness of the problem to get aircraft into the air to follow it before it went down 400-500 miles out into the Atlantic.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:05 pm
by rcair1
Quoting type-rated (Reply 16):
oss of pressure and was slowly spiraling down

According to FA he/she was at altitude (30K) for some 3 hours after the course became erratic. I think that you would suffer permanent damage or death at 30,000 in that time - so recovery was probably not an option.

Also - as he/she passed 12000ft the descent rate was 1800 fpm - so figure only a few minutes.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:29 pm
by beeweel15
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 2):
Air Force reported the plane's windows were iced/fogged over and pilot was not responding.

This is very very similar to an accident many years ago but with a private jet. I believe it was a HS125 jet that was heading west and crashed somewhere in the mid west.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:00 am
by Dazed767
Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 26):
This is very very similar to an accident many years ago but with a private jet. I believe it was a HS125 jet that was heading west and crashed somewhere in the mid west.

Talking about the Lear 35 with Payne Stewart on it back in 1999?

[Edited 2012-04-19 17:01:04]

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:11 am
by beeweel15
Quoting Dazed767 (Reply 27):
Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 26):
This is very very similar to an accident many years ago but with a private jet. I believe it was a HS125 jet that was heading west and crashed somewhere in the mid west.

Talking about the Lear 35 with Payne Stewart on it back in 1999?

Yes that's it just got the aircraft wrong. Thanks for the correction

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:00 am
by Braniff747SP
Gizmodo (not the best source, I'll agree) is reporting that they may have identified the pilot: http://gizmodo.com/5903527/this-coul...ho-crashed-into-the-gulf-of-mexico

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:07 am
by ltbewr
One can be trained to deal with a depressurization event, but how an individual pilot will deal with it when it happens is critical. A pilot may not recognize what is happening and make the right decisions quickly enough, you need to make key decisions in 15-20 seconds, if even that. When something goes wrong, you may be distracted figuring out what happened losing more time margin to get to backup O2. Then you have to hope the O2 backup equipment is working, is accessible and you recall how it works and you get it to work right. Any or several of these factors could have caused what happened here, as in the Stewart Payne and the Helios depressurization crashes.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:38 am
by efcar98
How ironic that payne stewart's aircrat was N47** and this one was N48**

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:21 am
by Mcoov
Has the Coast Guard been dispatched to the crash site? Any updates to report?

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:53 am
by maxpower1954
Reminds me of the accident that killed LSU coach Bo Rein back in 1980.

http://dagmar.lunarpages.com/~parasc2/articles/0997/oblivion.htm

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:17 am
by redrooster3
CNN is reporting that the plane made a "softer" crash landing, with the tail hanging out when rescue boats got there. It has since sank. No pilot found, the pilot has then been identified.

CNN Source

Quote:
Hertzak was the head of the Hertzak Laser Center, which specializes in liposuction and cosmetic surgery. He had more than 30 years of experience, according to the center's website.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:14 pm
by penguins
Just a quick question about decompression. When a decompression takes place and you faint due to lack of oxygen, how long are you alive for? If the plane could have been safely landed, would the pilot be dead, blacked out, in a coma or something else?
Thanks
Penguins

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:26 pm
by rfields5421
Quoting penguins (Reply 35):
Just a quick question about decompression. When a decompression takes place and you faint due to lack of oxygen, how long are you alive for? If the plane could have been safely landed, would the pilot be dead, blacked out, in a coma or something else?

Helios Airways Flight 552 is a good indication of what happens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522

After almost 2 hours depressurized at FL340, an off-duty flight attendant with pilot training in smaller aircraft was concious enough to enter the cockpit. But he was not trained or mentally alert enough to gain control of the aircraft.

None of the bodies recovered after the crash indicated the people died at altitude before the crash. (There was a severe post crash fire - not from fuel because the plane went down due to fuel starvation - but it went down in a very dry area of brush/ grass and started a major ground fire.)

There was no indication anyone was actually concious at the time of the crash.

I have found nothing on the Payne Stewart Lear crash which indicates the bodies were in good enough condition to determine if the people were alive at impact. (It was a very steep impact at near supersonic speed. The wreckage adn remains were located in a crater/ crash site only 42 x 21 feet, and over 8 feet deep.)

In this case in the Gulf of Mexico - had the pilot been recovered, he very likely would be too brain damaged to ever return to conciousness.

Though miracles do happen, so we just don't know for certain. The better the person's general health and aerobic fitness, the longer she/he could survive low oxygen.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:54 am
by 71Zulu
Quoting penguins (Reply 35):
Just a quick question about decompression. When a decompression takes place and you faint due to lack of oxygen, how long are you alive for? If the plane could have been safely landed, would the pilot be dead, blacked out, in a coma or something else?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IqWal_EmBg

Best example of effects of hypoxia right here, Kalitta Cargo Learjet, lucky guys.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:41 am
by PHX787
Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 37):
Best example of effects of hypoxia right here, Kalitta Cargo Learjet, lucky guys.

Wow that sounded scary. Towards the end of the video, was the "pilot" talking the drunk-sounding pilot in the beginning? Amazing.

RE: Private Plane Crash Over Gulf Of Mexico

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:07 am
by 71Zulu
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 38):
Towards the end of the video, was the "pilot" talking the drunk-sounding pilot in the beginning? Amazing.

The pilot in the first part (I believe he was the Capt) can be heard starting to recover at 3:42, then sounds like the F/O is heard for the first time at 3:48 and 3:59, then the Capt comes back again at 4:10 and sounds normal. Yeah it's an incredible recording. Eery to also hear the cabin altitude warning horn wailing in the background.