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columba
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Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:49 pm

Swiss is looking to replace with their A340-300 with a larger jets. They need them especially for their route to Sao Paolo.

Plan is that the A340 will be retired in 2014, so there are no A350s or 787s available.
Link in German:

http://www.aerotelegraph.com/swiss-sucht-nachfolger-fuer-a340-airbus

That just leaves three options:

1) Used A340-600s
2) 777-300ERs
3) 747-8Is (just say that because Swiss is owned by LH, the 747-8I could be too much of an aircraft for Swiss but would be my favorite choice)

Let´s discuss..........
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travelavnut
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:52 pm

Maybe a stupid question, but why isn't the A380 a possibility? To large a jump in capacity?
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IrishAyes
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:55 pm

Good move for SWISS. The A340s arrived sometime in the early 2000s as a replacement for the MD-11, but it's definitely about time to up-gauge if they see fit.

The question is, it all depends on the "niche" that SWISS' long haul network provides out of ZRH. Given their positioning in Star Alliance, and close relationship with LH, I feel that comes somewhat into play when determining their optimal ASMs for their longer range flights?

I'd imagine they'd go for the A340-600 but really just stick with the markets that need them (GRU/NRT, etc) the A330-300 provides a temp replacement for the A340s if they're seeking to retire them fast, and then they can wait it out for newer planes.
 
LH4116
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:01 pm

Why will they retire the A340-300s so soon? They recently acquired a big bunch of used ones, and the earlier examples in the fleet which were delivered factory fresh are less than 10 years old. If they're in need of a larger jet I'm sure they'll be able to pick up some used A340-600s fairly cheap and easy. The current A346 operators seem to be more than eager to get rid of them, and many airlines dispose them like napkins. Wouldn't surprise me if we get to see the first A346s in the scrapper in just a year or two, a shame such a beautiful plane gets treated with this little dignity.

I would really hope if SWISS got their hands over a couple of A346s, they would look beautiful in the red&white livery  
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neutronstar73
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:03 pm

I'm thinking some A340-600s will be (or are) on the market for cheap! Swipe those up until they can get A350s or 777s, if that's what they are aiming for.

A380? 748? But like someone said, that might be too much airplane.
 
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United_fan
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:09 pm

It certainly would be cheaper from a training standpoint for them to go with the A340-600's.
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planeguy727
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:15 pm

Would the 744s be too much a/c? With several airlines (including *A partners) retiring some they might be able to acquire at a reasonable cost.
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phxa340
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 6):
Would the 744s be too much a/c? With several airlines (including *A partners) retiring some they might be able to acquire at a reasonable cost.

Doesn't the A346 have a way better fuel burn and carry about the same amount of passengers ?
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 4):
I'm thinking some A340-600s will be (or are) on the market for cheap! Swipe those up until they can get A350s or 777s, if that's what they are aiming for.

I predict this scenario also.

The -600's will transfer over from LH, i'd guess.

Quoting LH4116 (Reply 3):
Why will they retire the A340-300s so soon?

Too small . And the 330-300 now has the better range than it did back in 2000, so it can operate the routes that require this capacity more efficiently.

So the future Swiss fleet will have 2 sizes of Long Haul Aircraft.

Small - A330 or 787 or proposed A330S

Large - (Tempo A346) Then B777NG or A350
 
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yyz717
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:34 pm

How ironic. The old Swissair ordered 9x 346, only to have the ordered converted to 343 by Swiss.

The 748 would look great in Swiss colours. I suspect the easiest/minimalist solution is to transfer 346's from LH, as suggested above.
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lightsaber
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:45 pm

I'm curious as to the replacement aircraft. they could be hand me down planes from LH, as others have speculated.

However, I wonder if the 748i would be too much plane? Slots should be available.

Quoting columba (Thread starter):
Plan is that the A340 will be retired in 2014,

Interesting. Are a group coming up on D-checks or lease experations?

Quoting LH4116 (Reply 3):
Why will they retire the A340-300s so soon?

With fuel being ~40% of the cost of long haul flying, the purchase price/depreciation of the airframe is no longer as important of a role in fleet decisions. For any route that the A333 could also fly, the A343 is simply unable to pay its way.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 8):
The -600's will transfer over from LH, i'd guess.

It wouldn't surprise me if that was a hold over solution until new buy planes arrive.

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columba
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 9):
The 748 would look great in Swiss colours. I suspect the easiest/minimalist solution is to transfer 346's from LH, as suggested above.

LH has a own need of their A346 fleet, I can only imagine 2nd hand aircraft acquired from other airlines such as Qatar or Virgin
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:47 pm

Interesting development.

I'd love to see a 777-300ER in SWISS colours, but I know that SWISS is likey to stick with Airbus, so I'd say they could replace their A343s with some second-hand A346s in the meantime. Now, if we're talking about a long-term replacement, I'd say that SWISS would go for the A350-900.
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 9):
The old Swissair ordered 9x 346, only to have the ordered converted to 343 by Swiss.

Well, I think that made the most sense at the time, even it seems like an odd choice now.
 
planesailing
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:01 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 11):
LH has a own need of their A346 fleet, I can only imagine 2nd hand aircraft acquired from other airlines such as Qatar or Virgin

There are 4 ex-VS A346's on the market at the moment being marketed by Airbus.
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:19 pm

Quoting planesailing (Reply 14):
There are 4 ex-VS A346's on the market at the moment being marketed by Airbus.

And I think we have a winner.

As far as I can see, it does not say that Swiss will replace all 15 340's with something larger, so 4 340-600 would probably fit them perfectly.

I think they will keep the 340's until the 350-900 is ordered and delivered  
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IrishAyes
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 6):

Would the 744s be too much a/c? With several airlines (including *A partners) retiring some they might be able to acquire at a reasonable cost.

I think SWISS will stick with airbus. Plus, I feel like it would probably be easier for them to align their product offering more consistently with an A346 rather than a 747 as they go through the replacement process.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting planesailing (Reply 14):
There are 4 ex-VS A346's on the market at the moment being marketed by Airbus.

I'm sure Airbus will be glad to arrange a temporary lease on used A346s while the A350 comes around.
Given the large LH A346 fleet, it sounds like the logical solution, at least for a while.
It might also be a good time for Airbus to slip an A350 flyer under the door at the LH headquarters...

But then the 77W would also be a real nice fit and I'm sure Boeing has smelled opportunity.
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Alsatian
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting columba (Thread starter):
1) Used A340-600s
2) 777-300ERs
3) 747-8Is (just say that because Swiss is owned by LH, the 747-8I could be too much of an aircraft for Swiss but would be my favorite choice)

Why not simply 777-200s ?
 
gigneil
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:04 pm

A 777-200 is not appreciably larger than an A340-300.

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Alsatian
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 19):
A 777-200 is not appreciably larger than an A340-300.

Sure but this is an option that we can' t ignore, don' t you think so ?

For example AF operates the both :

343 : 275 seats
772 : 307 seats

A 12% difference
 
kaitak
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:30 pm

I think that for all of the costs (training, maintenance etc) involved in switching from the 343 to the 772, they'd want more than a 12% capacity improvement; also, the difference between the 772 and 333/343 in capacity depends on configuration; perhaps in LX configuration, there would not be that big a difference.

Personally, I think that the A346 is the most likely option here, and would be a stopgap until the 359/351 arrive, later this decade. The A340-300 has served LX well, but it's time to move on ...
 
Stratofish
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:51 pm

I will chime in with those who predict the A346 as a temporary measure. Next to no training costs (if at all) and it is available for cheap on the market.

What I don't understand is: the article mentioned by the OP says LX is NOT looking at a possible upgrade in frequency. Now, they say ZRH - GRU is their most profitable route by far, then put on another A343 and milk the cow a little more. The A343 is available even more cheaply if need be. What am I missing here?
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dennys
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:55 pm

I bet for ex LH A346
i would love to see Swiss air lines flying the 747-8i , but this might be a huge aircraft for LX .

772 , too old now
773 , not in LH mind

But LX CAN fly the 343 for a couple of years waiting to another larger aircraft !
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 22):
Now, they say ZRH - GRU is their most profitable route by far, then put on another A343 and milk the cow a little more. The A343 is available even more cheaply if need be. What am I missing here?

Well, on the one hand, GRU is very constrained. I understand it is very hard and expensive to find landing and take-off slots at GRU at attractive times, therefore adding more flights likely is not an option for LX. On the other hand, by adding more flights, LX could dilute its yields, and that is certainly not desirable.
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 7):
Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 6):
Would the 744s be too much a/c? With several airlines (including *A partners) retiring some they might be able to acquire at a reasonable cost.

Doesn't the A346 have a way better fuel burn and carry about the same amount of passengers ?

Yeah, but the 777-300ER has a way better fuel burn than the A346 and carries the same number of passengers and is a much better airplane. Hopefully, LX will upgrade to the 77W.
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:23 pm

This gives the rumor about LHs plan of phasing the 748i in as a replacement for the A346 fuel as well. When will the first 748i for LH arrive? Should be right around the corner now. This means that there will be some A346 frames ready to go within the coming year. With reconfig of cabin that would match well with LX starting to phase out the A343.

However, the ripple effect for LH is quite interesting since this would not mean retirement of their 343s with an up gauge to the 346. Maybe they just don't need the growth at this time..

Training would be a doddle.. I guess the 340 sims in Zurich just need an upgrade and the pilots get a differences course..

And it keeps the 346 flying for a bit longer, in one of my favorite c/s as well.

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Stratofish
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:31 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 24):
Well, on the one hand, GRU is very constrained. I understand it is very hard and expensive to find landing and take-off slots at GRU at attractive times, therefore adding more flights likely is not an option for LX. On the other hand, by adding more flights, LX could dilute its yields, and that is certainly not desirable

That's true, slots might be the crucial point here. But if it is their most profitable route they would still make a decent profit with a second flight, wouldn't they?
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting affirmative (Reply 26):
This gives the rumor about LHs plan of phasing the 748i in as a replacement for the A346 fuel as well.

That is likely eventually, but perhaps not in time for LX. The first batch of 748s is a one-to-one replacement for early 744s that are retiring with close to 120,000 hours.

I think that sourcing a few A346 frames from elsewhere makes perfect sense for LX. They only need them for two or three routes, so they don't need a large number.
 
penguins
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:26 pm

The old Swissair had ordered A346s before they went down. The orders I believe were canceled so, clearly their was a market for them.
 
ATL
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:52 am

YES. Finally LX goes big(ger). I would love to see them order the 747-8I (how long is the order log?) or the 777-300ER (once again, can they get them by 2014, as apparently that's when the A343s are getting phased out?) but I mean, they have a history of buying used aircrafts (the a343s) and are super loyal to airbus... also used A340-600s would be quick and cheap to get.... AND LH has them... AND crew training will also be cheap and easy... ugh I see the A340-600 on the horizon for LX... I like that aircraft, but I mean, I'd love to see an LX Boeing for once... Also isn't the A340-600 super inefficient compared to other jets today?

Although I suppose a longer aircraft will fit their new livery..
 
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PM
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 25):
Yeah, but the 777-300ER has a way better fuel burn than the A346

Somewhat better. The A346 is efficient. The 77W is just more efficient.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 25):
and is a much better airplane.

We've dealt with fuel burn. In which other ways is the 77W "much better"? (As a passenger, I'd take the A346 any day.)

Quoting ATL (Reply 30):
isn't the A340-600 super inefficient compared to other jets today?

No. If it were I doubt if Lufthansa would still be flying them.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting ATL (Reply 30):
Also isn't the A340-600 super inefficient compared to other jets today?

If they can fill it, it's more efficient per passenger than the A343 they are flying today. It's more efficient than the used 744s implausibly suggested upthread. It's less efficient than a 77W, but it's also way cheaper to buy. It's not as hard to fill as a 748.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:18 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 25):

Yeah, but the 777-300ER has a way better fuel burn than the A346 and carries the same number of passengers and is a much better airplane. Hopefully, LX will upgrade to the 77W

While the 777 is more fuel efficient. on most routes i fail to see why it is the much better plane(technically). Besides for LX commonality is important. The transition from a A343-300 to an A340-600 would be very short (not on ly for pilots also SR Technics).That and the fact that Lufthansa uses the same type it makes absolutely no sense to introduce for 2-4years a new type until A350 would arrive. As personal opinion i prefer the A340 over the noisy 777.
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RayChuang
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:16 am

I wonder are there enough ex-airline A340-600's for Swiss to operate as A340-300 replacements? LH is already heavily using their A346 fleet, and may not have a plane to spare for LX.

My guess is that LX may hold out for a 12-14 plane A350-1000 order.
 
laca773
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:17 am

No matter how many would love, just love to see the A380 or the 748 in LX, colors, that won't happen. Too much a/c for the markets they serve.

They probably could pick up some A346s relatively quickly, however, isn't it true the 77W is much more fuel efficient when compared to the former?
 
Gingersnap
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:37 am

I wouldn't look any further than the ex-VS A346s that Airbus are marketing. There's no way LX will go for the 77W for starters, for no other reason than there is no cost benefit to an all Airbus airline (excluding the 14 RJs) to introducing a large Boeing airliner into their fleet. It makes financial sense to stick with Airbus at this time.


As far as the 748 goes....wonderful aircraft that will serve LH well but I think you'd sooner see an A388 in LX colours than anything else.

No bias against Boeing, but for LX the 346 will probably be the stop gap followed by (possibly) an A350 order somewhere down the line.
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HBGDS
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:50 am

This is interesting, but I 'd like to second the ones who mentioned that Swiss is likely to stick with Airbus. That's because although LH now owns it, it is still a Swss carrier, and with Switzerland not being a member of the EU, Swissair and later Swiss have encountered all kinds of difficulty clearing things with Bruxelles (traffic rights, frequency, etc...). I have this directly from a retired SR chief pilot for the 747 division that this is why they did not even think of the 744 when the 743s were inching towards retirementin the late 90s. The A346 was going to do the trick. Of course, things change, but again, buying Airbus is a way to smooth things with the neghbors, even if the neighbors already own your ass and chair...

I'd love to be proven wrong. I love Airbus, but I miss the 747 with a Swiss cross painted on the tail...
 
caljn
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:53 am

Quoting autothrust (Reply 33):
introduce for 2-4years a new type until A350 would arrive. As personal opinion i prefer the A340 over the noisy 777.

Here we go again. If you say it often enought, it becomes fact.
Has anyone done a scientific comparison on the T7 vs other aircraft and their decibel levels?
I have no issue traveling on the sturdy, confident, comfy T7. What is all this subjective fuss over the engine sounds?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:07 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
For any route that the A333 could also fly, the A343 is simply unable to pay its way.

While I was doing a Google search for historic fuel burn by passenger reports by LH, I ran across this article from 2009:

http://www.greenaironline.com/news.php?viewStory=500

Now I realize this is from three years ago, reporting 2008's numbers, but I thought this line was interesting:

"The most fuel-efficient aircraft within the group was again the Airbus A340-300s operated by its SWISS subsidiary. In 2008, their specific fuel consumption came to 3.24 litres per 100 passenger kilometres"

Considering the lower density of LX's long-haul fleet, by virtue of having space taken up by a First Class cabin, where LH was flying 2-class A343s, that's a mighty impressive endorsement of the A343 indeed being able to pay its way, considering that LH was flying recent-build A333s in that timeframe.

Does anyone have a link for the 2010 or 2011 numbers?
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solarflyer22
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:15 am

I love Swiss and I hope the continue to expand at a sustainable rate.

Quoting columba (Reply 11):
LH has a own need of their A346 fleet, I can only imagine 2nd hand aircraft acquired from other airlines such as Qatar or Virgin

This makes the most sense to me. There are some cheap used A346 coming on the market and they already have the type + pilots.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 17):
But then the 77W would also be a real nice fit and I'm sure Boeing has smelled opportunity.

I think if they had ordered the 77W a few years ago they'd be standing pretty. Its the perfect size for their route network, has the range and the performance of a twin vs. the 4 engine A34x series.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 21):
I think that for all of the costs (training, maintenance etc) involved in switching from the 343 to the 772, they'd want more than a 12% capacity improvement; also, the difference between the 772 and 333/343 in capacity depends on configuration; perhaps in LX configuration, there would not be that big a difference

I agree 772 would have been a better choice 10 years ago before they got the A343. Now that the infrastructure is in place, might as well stay in the family.

I think 777 is really perfect for them and its here now unlike the A359 but my guess is they want fleet commonality with LH too. Since LH operates A346 not the 777, I'd say that's the play. 744 and 748 are too big for them imo.
 
CM
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:33 am

Quoting PM (Reply 31):
In which other ways is the 77W "much better"?

OEM reported dispatch reliability for 2011.

A340 - 98.23%
777 - 99.34%

That's 2.7 A340 schedule interrupts for every 1 on the 777. I think that qualifies as "much better".
 
Carpethead
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:34 am

Can't LH & LX jointly order, say 25 77Ws and maybe throw in 15 more 77Fs for the LH freight division to replace the MD-11Fs. LX can have 10 or so 77Ws and the rest going to LH.
Then their combined 777 fleet would be large enough for scale merits.

I know this just my personal opinion, but the crazier things have happened in this world.
 
SASMD82
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:53 am

I thought that the Á340-600 was designed to replace Boeing 747 and MD-11s? So I suppose fuel burn must be better than these airplanes.

Quoting Alsatian (Reply 20):
Quoting gigneil (Reply 19):
A 777-200 is not appreciably larger than an A340-300.

Sure but this is an option that we can' t ignore, don' t you think so ?

Quite a few airlines have already replaced their B772 with A333. AF and KL are one of the few airline who squeeze more than 300 people in a 772. I don't think this will be thus an option.

Quoting dennys (Reply 23):
I bet for ex LH A346
i would love to see Swiss air lines flying the 747-8i , but this might be a huge aircraft for LX .

772 , too old now
773 , not in LH mind

Exactly. I think beside LH aircraft, we might see ex VS aircraft.
 
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PM
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:28 am

Quoting CM (Reply 41):
OEM reported dispatch reliability for 2011.

A340 - 98.23%
777 - 99.34%

Thanks. Is that for all A340s and all 777s or just the A340-600 vs 777-300ER which was the comparison we were making?
 
CM
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:33 am

Quoting PM (Reply 44):
Is that for all A340s and all 777s

Yep, it's at the fleet level for each type. The 777-300ER fleet is at 99.55%, but I'll need to go back to the database to get the data for the A340 minor models.
 
ab1247
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:59 am

RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:41 am

Quoting HBGDS (Reply 37):
The A346 was going to do the trick. Of course, things change, but again, buying Airbus is a way to smooth things with the neghbors, even if the neighbors already own your ass and chair...

I disagree. LX doesn't have to "satisfy" any European neighbors, especially considering that its parent company has a long tradition of launching Boeing A/C types - 737-1/3/4/5, 747-400 come to mind - and the airline itself has had a very strong DC/MD background. The 340-600 is a no-brainer for them from the get-go. As previously mentioned, they're available, cheap, common to the existing fleet, require little maintenance integration, etc. They are the perfect stop-gap.

LX can replace the six 15 year old frames that they bought second-hand from Austrian and Air Canada and therefore swap one patch with another. I think that would be a relatively elegant solution since that would leave them with their original fleet of 340's - all remaining frames would have about the same cycles and come up for replacement at the same time.

Quoting carpethead (Reply 42):
Can't LH & LX jointly order, say 25 77Ws and maybe throw in 15 more 77Fs for the LH freight division to replace the MD-11Fs. LX can have 10 or so 77Ws and the rest going to LH.
Then their combined 777 fleet would be large enough for scale merits.

I know this just my personal opinion, but the crazier things have happened in this world.

This would be enough orders to push down the price, but considering that LX and LH operations and maintenance are almost completely independent of each other, there would be no palpable economies of scale in operations from this acquisition. LX would still have to deal with an aircraft that is in no way common to their existing fleet. A fleet of 10 77Ws is doable, but it is far from optimal for an A/C type that is the odd duck out in essentially all respects. Don't get me wrong, the 777 is an excellent aircraft, but LX has no business in acquiring them at this juncture, especially now that they have just upgraded their 330's. They're locked into the Airbus family until they make their 350/787 decision (or rather LH makes it for them???).

Considering the generally pretty low age of LX and LH's widebodies, they should be in no hurry to jump the gun on their next-gen buying. They can sit back and relax and watch how the two new aircraft prove themselves in production and operations.
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 7):
Doesn't the A346 have a way better fuel burn and carry about the same amount of passengers ?

Yes, much better fuel burn than the 744 but quite a lot less capacity. So, in fact, a win-win situation for LX to get A346 over 744s. Unless they wanna see really big. But I doubt it, they are really wise in their plans (and so far, it works great).

Quoting columba (Reply 11):
LH has a own need of their A346 fleet, I can only imagine 2nd hand aircraft acquired from other airlines such as Qatar or Virgin

That need might drop once the 748s keep flowing in...

Quoting planesailing (Reply 14):
There are 4 ex-VS A346's on the market at the moment being marketed by Airbus.

If so, then LX might be in business!

Quoting Alsatian (Reply 20):
For example AF operates the both :

343 : 275 seats
772 : 307 seats

A 12% difference

This only holds true because AF crams 10 abreast on the 777 and did not dare do 9 abreast on the A340 (yet?). Otherwise, they are VERY VERY similar in capacity, maybe the 772 is 5% larger overall, at the most. Hard to compare side-by-side even within a same airline as they often are used for different markets with different J/Y distributions. See DL A333 (=A343 in cabin size) vs their 772 for instance.
When I doubt... go running!
 
mandala499
Posts: 6593
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:43 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
With fuel being ~40% of the cost of long haul flying, the purchase price/depreciation of the airframe is no longer as important of a role in fleet decisions. For any route that the A333 could also fly, the A343 is simply unable to pay its way.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 8):
The -600's will transfer over from LH, i'd guess.

It wouldn't surprise me if that was a hold over solution until new buy planes arrive.

I find that rather odd. The 346's fuel burn per seat is worse than the 343.
Maintenance for those 4 Trents on a per seat basis makes the CFMs on the 343 look like a bargain.
Moving from 343 to 346 can work, as long as the revenue gains are significant enough.
For short term, yes, 346 probably works better for Swiss than 77W
346 will work on routes with nice premiums...otherwise, the 343 is likely to be the winner due to the low per seat costs... and 333 even better if you don't need the range.
If Swiss is looking for larger aircraft for several routes only (ie: not a wholesale replacement of the 343), well, the 346 is quite a no brainer.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
oksman
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:33 pm

RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:50 am

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 36):

So why did JJ choose to fly the 77W even though they have an all Airbus fleet? That probably makes sense, and they just have 4 frames (plus 8 on order).

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