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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:40 am

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 99):
Would five or a max of six planes be enough?

They have six second-hand A340-300s that should be replaced if we want to be neat about it.

The Virgin planes are old, early and heavy.

Don't Qatar want to offload their A340-600s? They are HGWs. But they only have four of them.

Might Etihad be induced to part with some or all of their seven?

Thai have six. (Six is a nice number.)

I can't see Iberia, South African or Lufthansa being ready to pass theirs on.
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 100):
Don't Qatar want to offload their A340-600s? They are HGWs. But they only have four of them.
Source: "If I could, I would throw them away. These planes are not efficient at all." -- Al Baker.

They don't like them, but they might not be prepared to give them up. The ME seems to be short of aircraft at the moment...

Quoting PM (Reply 100):
Might Etihad be induced to part with some or all of their seven?

Doubt it. They might not be as good as the 777, but even losing a couple of frames is problematic when the airline is expanding as much as it is today.

Quoting PM (Reply 100):
Thai have six. (Six is a nice number.)

Most likely outcome IMO. I'm not sure what the actual plan is, but TG could replace their 6 A346's with the 6 A380's (obviously not a one-for-one swap, but with some shuffling around) since they don't seem to be in a state to take on that much extra capacity.
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Wed May 02, 2012 1:17 pm

I just learned that Boeing buys 5x A340-600 from China Eastern as part of a new deal where China Eastern buys 20 77W's.
These might be the 346's which could go to LX. Are they the HGW versions?
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Wed May 02, 2012 1:28 pm

I don't think the A340-600 is a good option unless it is part of a temporary stopgap measure as part of a broader deal.

Sure they may be cheap but they will still sell back for much worse down the road and aren't the most economical option.

I remember SR used to fly a number of B747-300's, not sure they were not the combi version though, maybe LX could fit a few B748i's after all on some key routes. I don't think A380's are in the picture here but hey, if commonality within the LH group is really good, even a pair can make sense.

Arguably, the best option would be some 777-300ER's to start a smooth transition to whatever comes next from Seattle.
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Wed May 02, 2012 2:10 pm

Thai also have hour A340-542s that they no longer use. I bet the lease rates might be worth the fuel burn in the short term.
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Wed May 02, 2012 2:46 pm

If I were sitting in Boeing's shoes with my 5 A346's I just picked up it'd be time to make a call to LX. Would be a neat bait to hang out there for LH in return for converting some 748 options or something. Point is if you're Boeing you get to be the good guy helping out LX with some Airbus aircraft and at the same time getting your foot in the door for possible fleet moves down the road.

Talk about a win win for Boeing 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:20 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 104):
Thai also have hour A340-542s that they no longer use. I bet the lease rates might be worth the fuel burn in the short term

But it wouldn't really do LX any good, as their wan't to be able to increase the number of seats to their most popular destinations. Since the -500 is only marginally larger than the -300, there is no point of LX getting the -500
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:45 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 48):
The 346's fuel burn per seat is worse than the 343.
Maintenance for those 4 Trents on a per seat basis makes the CFMs on the 343 look like a bargain.

My reply was for the A333.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 48):
I find that rather odd. The 346's fuel burn per seat is worse than the 343.

   Hence why the 77W sold so well...

Quoting PM (Reply 100):
Don't Qatar want to offload their A340-600s? They are HGWs. But they only have four of them.

Might Etihad be induced to part with some or all of their seven?

I think both would be happy to sell A346s, assuming other aircraft entered the fleet quickly enough to keep on their growth plans.

Quoting PM (Reply 100):
I can't see Iberia, South African or Lufthansa being ready to pass theirs on.

I could see LH getting rid of theirs for 748i or even in some case A330s could do the job. Say 7-year lease on A333s as with SQ? I also think LH has some flexibility in 744 retirement. Note: I do know the A346 is much more economical than the 744, I'm talking a 'stop gap' for the hand over.

Quoting iceberg210 (Reply 105):
If I were sitting in Boeing's shoes with my 5 A346's I just picked up it'd be time to make a call to LX.

I missed this. Do you have a link on Boeing picking up A346s? Thanks in advance.

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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 107):
I missed this. Do you have a link on Boeing picking up A346s? Thanks in advance.

Anytime,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...eing-trade-in-deal-chinese-airline

Boeing took five A346's in on trade in the deal for the 20 77W's China Eastern recently signed.

Again I think that means a glorious opportunity to place them and get in at LX. If these birds are HGW versions and decent aircraft that is... I know nothing of their condition, nor HGW status...

[Edited 2012-05-02 09:55:23]
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columba
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Wed May 02, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 107):
I also think LH has some flexibility in 744 retirement. Note: I do know the A346 is much more economical than the 744, I'm talking a 'stop gap' for the hand over.

Depends if the 747-430 are up for major check it could be too expensive, but giving a few 747-400s over to Swiss might be an option. But as it has been said Swiss does not have enough pilots to get them trained on Boeing aircraft, this seems to be unlikely.
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Wed May 02, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 103):
I remember SR used to fly a number of B747-300's, not sure they were not the combi version though,

Swissair was the launch carrier for both the 747-300 all-passenger and combi models. They had 2 all-passenger and 3 combis.
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 03, 2012 9:57 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 110):
Swissair was the launch carrier for both the 747-300 all-passenger and combi models. They had 2 all-passenger and 3 combis.

So it's not totally stupid to consider LX could benefit from the economies of scale of the B748i or A380 seeing that the synergies of the LH group would offset the cost of having a low unit count of those birds. Just like I believe it could make sense for KL one day or another to have a few A380's in very near AF config.
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 03, 2012 1:27 pm

As Sandro already stated, it will be 346's due to the simplicity of entering this subtype in the fleet. Also crews can be trained easier as they already have 330's and 340's. The big question remains where the birds are coming from, and with Boeing buying China Easterns' 346's these 5 might just do the trick for LX. I hope somebody has more info on that!
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 03, 2012 4:46 pm

LX codesharing with LH doesn't leave much room for VLAs. MUC proximity to ZRH doesn't help either for making a case for the 747-8i

The most likely option would be the A346.
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SASMD82
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Mon May 07, 2012 3:37 am

When will we hear something from LX?
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Mon May 07, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting iceberg210 (Reply 108):
Boeing took five A346's in on trade in the deal for the 20 77W's China Eastern recently signed.

The last time I was aware of this was SQs A343X that eventually went to EK.    Ironic that this is happening again just as the EK leases are expiring.

Quoting columba (Reply 109):
But as it has been said Swiss does not have enough pilots to get them trained on Boeing aircraft, this seems to be unlikely.

Agreed. I was thinking LH A346 to LX with LH having flexibility with the 744s for LH flights.   

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 113):
The most likely option would be the A346.

  
And now Boeing has a few to offer too.  

Not to mention Airbus has two built A345 looking for a loving home.

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Burkhard
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Tue May 08, 2012 1:51 pm

Quoting DALCE (Reply 102):
These might be the 346's which could go to LX. Are they the HGW versions?

From Zurich to New York, Washington, Chicago, and Brazil this doesn't matter.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 115):
Not to mention Airbus has two built A345 looking for a loving home.

As much as I love the A345 as the best looking airliner of today, the likelihood of these to show up with LX is near to zero unless Airbus pays for the fuel and lends them for free - the capacity increase over the A343 is too small.
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Tue May 08, 2012 2:34 pm

I also agree that the 346 is much likely, at least in the short term. Operational/Maintenance commonality with other LX models and with LH (as LX will operate just a few of them, doesn't make sense to have 3 or 4 777-300 in the LH group). Even if this is not the best aircraft on the market today.

With LH phasing in the 748i, are we sure that they can't find a couple of them to relocate within the group?
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 17, 2012 8:08 am

Unless LX gets them for free or at a fantastic lease rate the 346 will be a waste of money. Little to no resale value for a stop gap procedure is not a good business practice. Also on the routes I have flown recently, Tokyo-Zurich, Zurich-Delhi, Zurich-Los Angelas the planes have plenty of open seats in coach. I look for a different kind of order, one that will spark interest from the Swiss flying public or no order at all.
 
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 17, 2012 8:51 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 29):
The old Swissair had ordered A346s before they went down. The orders I believe were canceled so, clearly their was a market for them.

The Swissair A346s went to SA, who incidently :

Quoting PM (Reply 100):
I can't see Iberia, South African or Lufthansa being ready to pass theirs on.

have a tender out for replacement of the A340 fleet due July. SA management have recently been quoted as saying that they are going to have to accelerate the replacement of the A340 because the fuel burn disadvantage is really kicking them in the nuts wrt the competition.
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columba
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 17, 2012 9:00 am

Quoting pfletch1228 (Reply 119):
have a tender out for replacement of the A340 fleet due July. SA management have recently been quoted as saying that they are going to have to accelerate the replacement of the A340 because the fuel burn disadvantage is really kicking them in the nuts wrt the competition.

I was hoping SA might go for the 747-8I, but if they are not able to fill that aircraft they still have a fuel burn disadvantage in comparison with the 77W  
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sweair
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 17, 2012 9:04 am

Almost all new frames that would suit them have long backlogs.. Used frames is one way but there are no decent used 300ER, 77L, 332 or 333s in the market. If it weren't for the size a sub fleet of 748s would be the quickest way to get new frames. Maybe if the can load it up with more cargo and not use all seats? LH will have a fleet of 20 and they could share maintenance?

Is Swiss an airline that has cargo on every flight? Say they could put 350 seats+ cargo on their flights, that would pay the bill right? But maybe the 748i is just too expansive to fly around with fewer seats than 380? Good deals could probably be made as Boeing must be willing to sell more frames?

New frames has few options used has more, many airlines dump the 340s now anyway.
 
DALCE
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 17, 2012 9:09 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 121):
Is Swiss an airline that has cargo on every flight?

Yes, LX carries a huge amount of cargo throughout the network. Longhaul loadfactors are very good. 346's or 748's will both be very very welcome from a cargo perspective 
Also within Europe LX carries cargo on almost all flights, and all routes.
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columba
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 17, 2012 9:40 am

A few thoughts on SA:

Replacing older A340s with A330s is a given but a successor for the A346 will be difficult:

I only see three likely candidates as the A350-1000 is not available, yet:

77W ? I believe one reason SA went for the A346 in the first place was the better hot and high performance. That still has not changed.

77L ? Enough power but might be too small ?

747-8I ? My prefered choice but as stated above, too big, 4 engines but still very fuel efficient if can be filled
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sweair
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 17, 2012 10:46 am

Maybe if Boeing could do a combi version of the 748i for Swiss, if they would buy new planes those would last for 20 years? If they go used maybe just 10 or less years? The LH group could have a decent sub fleet of 748is this way and a good cargo capacity if LH cargo is ended. If they only need about 350 seats there must be a lot of room left for cargo on a 748?
 
ajhYXE
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 17, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 124):
Maybe if Boeing could do a combi version of the 748i

I doubt that will ever happen. The changes mandated after SA295 have made certification of new combi variants impractical and uneconomical. It's too bad though because I believe a "747-8M" would sell rather well.
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EddieDude
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 17, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting pfletch1228 (Reply 119):
SA management have recently been quoted as saying that they are going to have to accelerate the replacement of the A340 because the fuel burn disadvantage is really kicking them in the nuts wrt the competition.

Oh, interesting. Is this being discussed on another thread?
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 17, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 126):
Oh, interesting. Is this being discussed on another thread?
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LJ
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 17, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting DALCE (Reply 102):
These might be the 346's which could go to LX. Are they the HGW versions?

No. The lowest construction number for an A340-600X is 715 (A7-AGB). There aren't many HGWs around thus it would be very difficult to get HGWs only (Qatar only has 3 of them).
 
N1120A
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 17, 2012 9:06 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 7):
Doesn't the A346 have a way better fuel burn and carry about the same amount of passengers ?

No. The 744 has the lower CASM and carries more passengers in a like configuration.
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Thu May 17, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting LH4116 (Reply 3):
The current A346 operators seem to be more than eager to get rid of them, and many airlines dispose them like napkins.

That is not true. South African Airways, Lufthansa, and Virgin Atlantic to a lesser extent, are very happy with their A340-600s. The only one that seems to be complaining heavily, as usual, is Mr. Al-Baker.

Speedbird741
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bavair
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Fri May 18, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 129):
No. The 744 has the lower CASM and carries more passengers in a like configuration.

Thing is that the A346 carries more cargo tho which you also have to keep in mind when comparing economics.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Sun May 20, 2012 3:29 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 130):
South African Airways, Lufthansa, and Virgin Atlantic to a lesser extent,

And Iberia no?
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LXA340
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Sun May 20, 2012 11:50 am

We are talking about the A346 being a fuel burner however in this case it shouldn't be compared to the most efficient aircraft currently available, instead as a comparison to the 6 ex AC and OS A343's of which the oldest is almost 16 years old, that LX currently has in the fleet which are meant to be replaced by the A346. Hence the A346 is for sure more economically efficient than these aeging A343's given of course LX will be able to reach profitable passenger and cargo loads on these birds.
 
ZRH
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Sun May 20, 2012 11:58 am

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 133):
We are talking about the A346 being a fuel burner however in this case it shouldn't be compared to the most efficient aircraft currently available, instead as a comparison to the 6 ex AC and OS A343's of which the oldest is almost 16 years old, that LX currently has in the fleet which are meant to be replaced by the A346. Hence the A346 is for sure more economically efficient than these aeging A343's given of course LX will be able to reach profitable passenger and cargo loads on these birds.

You are absolutely right. And furthermore sooner or later all SWISS long-haul aircrafts (333 later, 343 sooner) will be replaced by a new model, for example 350-900 and -1000.
 
columba
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Sun May 20, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 134):
You are absolutely right. And furthermore sooner or later all SWISS long-haul aircrafts (333 later, 343 sooner) will be replaced by a new model, for example 350-900 and -1000.

Or 787-10 ? I am not sure if LX needs the range of the A350. But on the other hand LX is nearly all Airbus except for the Avros and later CSeries.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
helvknight
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Sun May 20, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 135):
Or 787-10 ? I am not sure if LX needs the range of the A350. But on the other hand LX is nearly all Airbus except for the Avros and later CSeries.

The Avros and later the C-series are operated by a subsidiary, Swiss European Airlines. I remember when Sandro was training he was a bit worried he would end up on the Avros not mainline as there doesn't appear to be a progression path between the two groups. (Possibly this has changed)

LX mainline is all Airbus.

Remember LX also has some pretty long routes to the Far East and Latin America, most knocking on for 6000 nm.
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columba
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Sun May 20, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting helvknight (Reply 136):
The Avros and later the C-series are operated by a subsidiary, Swiss European Airlines.

Okay did not know that, thanks for the info  
Quoting helvknight (Reply 136):
Remember LX also has some pretty long routes to the Far East and Latin America, most knocking on for 6000 nm

In this case the A350-900/-1000 combination might make more sense
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
LXA340
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Sun May 20, 2012 2:23 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 135):
Or 787-10 ? I am not sure if LX needs the range of the A350. But on the other hand LX is nearly all Airbus except for the Avros and later CSeries.

It's probably almost for sure that the A343's and later A333's will be replaced by a A350 model. The fleet is at the end of the day too small to have various different aircraft types, hence a all Airbus fleet model (Mainline) makes much more sense. It's economically more efficient and allows greater flexibility for short notice changes which is quite needed for the understaffed cockpiit and cabin crew corps of LX. Although nothing was mentioned as far as I know, however the A32S fleet will logically also be replaced by the Neo version of the Airbus A32S. Given that OS will stay in the LH group I am sure we will see there as well sooner or later a Airbus fleet on the whole mainline front.
 
columba
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Sun May 20, 2012 4:10 pm

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 138):
I am sure we will see there as well sooner or later a Airbus fleet on the whole mainline front.

If I recall correctly OS is rumored to get additional 777s soon ? I believe there was a thread about it. For the time being OS long haul fleet will be 767/777s maybe later A350s.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Joost
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Sun May 20, 2012 6:01 pm

Quoting columba (Thread starter):
Swiss is looking to replace with their A340-300 with a larger jets. They need them especially for their route to Sao Paolo.

Despite all speculation, the article you refer too doesn't necessarily mention that LX is actively sourcing larger aircraft to operate before the arrival of A350s or B787s. It only states that the route to GRU could support a bigger aircraft, but they kill the argument right away that additional capacity could rather be sent through LHs hubs.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 48):
I find that rather odd. The 346's fuel burn per seat is worse than the 343.
Maintenance for those 4 Trents on a per seat basis makes the CFMs on the 343 look like a bargain.

Do you have any numbers to support that the 346 has a higher fuel burn per seat, and higher mthan the 343?

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 118):
Unless LX gets them for free or at a fantastic lease rate the 346 will be a waste of money. Little to no resale value for a stop gap procedure is not a good business practice.

When you lease them, the resale value is not of that much interest. Especially as a stop-gap measure, a short-term lease can be interesting. Considering the lack of interest (in general) for the 346, owners of these aircraft (including Boeing for the MU frames and Airbus for the VS-frames) might be very willing to offer the aircraft on short-term leases - especially when the replacing aircraft are acquired from either manufacturer.

For short-term leases, commonality saves lots of money when it comes to crew training & scheduling.

[quote=DALCE,reply=122]Yes, LX carries a huge amount of cargo throughout the network. Longhaul loadfactors are very good. 346's or 748's will both be very very welcome from a cargo perspective
 
vegas005
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RE: Swiss To Replace A340 With Larger Jet

Wed May 23, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting joost (Reply 140):
Quoting vegas005 (Reply 118):
Unless LX gets them for free or at a fantastic lease rate the 346 will be a waste of money. Little to no resale value for a stop gap procedure is not a good business practice.

When you lease them, the resale value is not of that much interest. Especially as a stop-gap measure, a short-term lease can be interesting. Considering the lack of interest (in general) for the 346, owners of these aircraft (including Boeing for the MU frames and Airbus for the VS-frames) might be very willing to offer the aircraft on short-term leases - especially when the replacing aircraft are acquired from either manufacturer.

Uh...yeah...that's what I said. "or a fantastic lease rate" and yes resale value does determine rates my friend. Always has always will. Commonality, I'm with you on that.

I am curious to see what the proposed 100 million dollar savings plan for the year will do to this deal and to service or brand quality as Swiss tightens the belt for the mother ship (LH) once again.

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Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos