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steex
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 99):

For the second time -- AA is going to be rebranded. New livery. Not current US livery. Not current AA livery. New -- different -- new -- livery. Been happening for a while now.

Right, but that's what AA is working on right now. If a merger with US were to happen, all bets are off. Parker & Co. have no obligation to keep whatever brand/image AA is cooking up right now.
 
blink182
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 25):
My only apprehension now, selfishly, with this type of a deal - if it comes to pass - is with some of the smaller, and some might say more 'trivial' things. The AA brand, name, history and legacy i

I don't think there's any selfishness, and those "trivial" things will matter. Look at UA/CO and how Smisek basically kept the UA name without much else. "Trivial" things like boarding, pillows, blankets etc. have all become significant issues, not to mention the SHARES debacle. Just look back on these forums about how in love people are with PMUA's advertising as another example. If Parker has done his homework and kept his head up, he'll be aware. A quick search on USAirways.com revealed Flight 1 to be PHX-ORD. I'm sure AA's Flight 1 will win, as will several other trivialities if the two are merged.

Quoting apodino (Reply 90):
However, the AMR BOD could look at this and if the Shareholders decide to go it alone, I would not be surprised if Parker is trying to set himself up to be lured away from US to run AMR. (I don't think this is his strategy, but it is a possibility that could happen)

I get the same impression that Parker may be subtly interviewing for a job as AA CEO with or without a merger of the two carriers. From my experiences on US I am much more of a critic than a fan of the airline, but I give Parker credit for keeping HP and US afloat and competitive when everybody had evidence that HP, and then HP/US, would go bankrupt.

Now, what I don't understand is how can Parker negotiate seemingly so generously with AA unions when the US work force is divided. Will Parker rob US to help AA? AA pilots won't willingly hand over their 777 flights to PVG, LHR, and GRU, so what happens to the captain who has been with HP since the late 80s and is still flying PHX-CLE? How does he win in all of this?

Quoting apodino (Reply 90):
One last thing is an SOC. I would almost surely bet money that the combined SOC or OCC will be the existing one near DFW.

Been stated numerous times on this thread that if AA/US were to come to fruition, headquarters would be in Dallas.
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
phxa340
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:55 pm

Quoting blink182 (Reply 102):
Now, what I don't understand is how can Parker negotiate seemingly so generously with AA unions when the US work force is divided.

Its all the small things ... sorry couldn't resist the 182 reference. I think Parker deserves a little slack on the East/West Pilot issue as it was binding arbitration that the East pilots ignored. With that being said , and WSJ agrees, labor would be a nightmare if they merged.
 
apodino
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:13 pm

Quoting blink182 (Reply 102):

Quoting apodino (Reply 90):
One last thing is an SOC. I would almost surely bet money that the combined SOC or OCC will be the existing one near DFW.

Been stated numerous times on this thread that if AA/US were to come to fruition, headquarters would be in Dallas.

That doesn't mean anything though for an SOC. US current HQ is in PHX yet their OCC is in PIT.
 
SonomaFlyer
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:16 pm

PHXA340, your points are valid. However, AA with contract adjustments and the addition of the new narrow bodies will be a powerhouse. They have a decent international network The problem is that the well with management is poisoned and labor costs (along with an old/inefficient fleet) are killing AA.

US needs to sort out its own pilots but my guess is that this offer will be extended to the US pilots as well. US and AA can then have the pilots unions sort out seniority or punt it to binding arbitration which keeps management hands clean.

Now that we see what Parker is up to, I think its ballsy and potentially brilliant. Yes US has a weak international presence. They know that but they have a very strong domestic presence, with tons of slots in the densest populated part of America, the North East. Those domestic feeder routes could help power a fantastic growth period for the combined company internationally.

I would expect that US would exit the Star Alliance and join with AA at One World which would make a great addition to that OW roster.
 
blink182
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:17 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 103):
Its all the small things ... sorry couldn't resist the 182 reference.

Its what I get for creating this username as a nine year old...  

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 99):
For the second time -- AA is going to be rebranded. New livery. Not current US livery. Not current AA livery. New -- different -- new -- livery. Been happening for a while now.

Was casually mentioned a few months ago. Will anything be unveiled in time for the 77W deliveries?

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 92):
Does the "New" AA go for the 787 or 350 ... IIRC AA has an MOU for the 787 but US has 20+ 350s on order , or do they go for both ?

If the two airlines merge, then I don't see why they cannot have both. 787-9 could replace AA 763s and US 762s. The 350 could be a long term replacement for US333s and AA's older 77Es. Problem though is that there would be a sizeable gap between the A321 and 787-9. 757 destinations like AMS, LIS, and other ports would be affected.
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
syncmaster
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 93):
While I'm a big fan of retaining the classic AA livery, this is steadily growing on me:

Agreed, if they change the livery that is. But I would definitely change the titles to blue and make the tail logo all white.

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 99):
For the second time -- AA is going to be rebranded. New livery. Not current US livery. Not current AA livery. New -- different -- new -- livery. Been happening for a while now.

I'm not sure it will be rebranded. AA has a strong brand and there is nothing wrong with it.

The NY Times is quoting the head of the APA at AA as saying the AA name (though no comment on the logo or livery) would stay as well as the DFW HQ: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/21/bu...ikes-deal-with-amrs-unions.html?hp

-Charlie
 
SXDFC
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 99):
For the second time -- AA is going to be rebranded. New livery. Not current US livery. Not current AA livery. New -- different -- new -- livery. Been happening for a while now.

Since it seems like you have a bit of knowladge on this topic, do you know if its going to be something interesting, or something bland like that Japan Airlines and Finnair did.
 
SPREE34
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:29 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
US reaches deals with AA pilots on a "proposed" future combined airline but still has no contract with its own pilots.

That is not the fault of US management. That is soley the doing of USAPA. A contract cannot be negotiated, until USAPA agrees to seniority integration. USAPA will be fun to watch now. If the AA merger goes through, USAPA is gone, and the agreed, arbitrated sli can happen. The AA merger would actuall facilitate a new contract, and create 1 pilot group out of the 3.

Quoting flyingbronco05 (Reply 12):

So AA Unions will negotiate with USAirways but not AA. This is screwed up. I hope AA takes this to the judge and screws AA unions over.

You need to read up on what's happend at AA in the last 30-45 days. The unions were given a term sheet by AA. AA will not negotiate those terms.

Quoting flyingbronco05 (Reply 12):
unions are negotiating with other people and not their present employer, the judge can grant AA whatever it needs to be profitable which would be HORRIBLE terms to the AA unions.

That gig with the judge was coming anyway. Why do you think the AA unions just did what they did?

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 27):
More seriously, the AA unions may have come to the conclusion that there is nothing to be gained by negotiating with the company and thus are trying to be more creative.

Ding! If Parker is good to his word on this, he will have created a huge airline, and solved many labor issues all at once.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 28):
I think US should focus on fixing the residual of the US / HP merger before they even think about taking over AA. Once the ex-HP and ex-US employees have been combined into one seniority list,

See my above comment. US management can't fix it. USAPA has to fix it. USAPA broke it.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 29):
This will show the judge that AA managment has not negoiated in good faith if an outside company can come in a matter of weeks and reach 3 deals.

Not sure a judge will see it that way. The remaining members on the unsecured creditors commitee may give it some weight.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 33):
Please keep in mind that AMR is still in its Exclusivity Period - meaning no one else can propose a plan or reorganizatoin besides the debtor for now. If US gets a deal now, AMR's management and board will have to bless it and go along with it. I believe that management has until September which isn't that far in the future.

If the UCC petitions to have that excusivity terminated, it'll happen. The gavel falls both ways.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 56):
And if US doesn't have a contract with its pilots, how can it agree to give AA pilots the Delta cotract plus 3%? What's preventing US from giving its current pilots Delta plus 3%?

The US pilots union is preventing US from giving a raise. Until USAPA agrees to the combined seniority list, US is legally unable to change anything.
The merger could actually help break this USAPA idiocy. APA has more members than USAPA, so will be the surviving union. The HP pilots will obviously side with APA, rendering USAPA irrelevent. At that point the 3 pilot groups become covered by one bargaining agent, who has already negotiated a contract with US.

All of you guys who wonder why US hasn't fixed all of these pilot issues, need to read up on (Google it) the Nicolau Arbitration, and why USAPA was created.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
gigneil
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:33 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
But they still have to make a deal with the AA creditors

I think this has been understated. The Unions are creditors. 3 of them. That's a significant vote.

Consensus is not required.

NS
 
klkla
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:33 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 94):
The gutting of CBA's is always progress. Unions are destructive and malicious, as the AA unions have shown us. A company with weaker unions is a company with a brighter future.

It's this attitude which AA's management seems to share with you that very possibly will lead to it's ultimate downfall.

The first mistake AA made when filing for BK was not replacing all their upper management and bringing in a clean slate. Getting rid of one guy and moving the other idiots that ruined this company for years up a notch was not appropriate. Their second mistake was the decision to have the courts invalidate current CBA's and pensions without honest negotiations. They underestimated the will of their employees and the pension guarantee fund which hold four of the nine seats on the creditor committee and this very well could be the begining of the end of AA as we know it today.

Like you I thought the best ultimate strategy for AA would have been an eventual merger with Jet Blue. But now due to the arrogance of incompetent management there is a very good chance they will be forced into a merger with US Airways.
 
Bobloblaw
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 53):
I talked a while back to a friend of mine who is a 737 captain with AA. His opinion is that while Bob Crandall made AA an industry leader, his management style, for whatever reason, didn't groom people to run AA successfully.

100% CORRECT ANALYSIS
 
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chepos
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:43 pm

I really don't understand the notion around here regarding labor nightmare, the current US Airways is operating without any issues with the two separate pilot gourps at the moment. If the merger were to occur it would help straighten out some issues with the East pilot group as they would no longer be the majority.

Regards,

Chepos
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
ripcordd
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:43 pm

mah4546 this statement is very ignorant of you.
The gutting of CBA's is always progress. Unions are destructive and malicious, as the AA unions have shown us. A company with weaker unions is a company with a brighter future.....
Look at the non-union employees getting the ax right cause they are not union. If AA would have it everything would be contracted out to the cheapest possible labor. While I dont always agree with the unions they have a place in large companies. I dont think anyone brought this up but does Eagle have a home within USAIR with their costs so much higher than what they are paying?
 
phxa340
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:47 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 94):
Unions are destructive and malicious, as the AA unions have shown us. A company with weaker unions is a company with a brighter future.

Woah , come on , thats not a balanced viewpoint of unions. WN, DL have strong unions that work well with management to deliver a great experience to the customer. Unions do some great things for companies like creating a long term stable relationship with employer (which reduces turnover and turnover expenses) and employee and creating a environment of safety which in the airline industry is huge. True they have some downfalls but to call them destructive and malicious is overboard.

Companies with a bright future - Ford , GM, Boeing, Airbus, GE, Unilever etc = All have unions

* I am not a union member but don't like over-simplification of complicated issues
 
MAH4546
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:48 pm

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 114):
Look at the non-union employees getting the ax right cause they are not union.

Yup. It's terrible. But they are easier to fire and outsource, so they get the cut while the unions are protected.

Unfortunately, unions turn jobs like flight attendants into "careers." A flight attendant job is highly disposable and should have quick turnover, like in most of Asia and the Middle East. Sorry if that sounds harsh to people, but that's the truth. Unions "protect" these positions, give flight attendants inflated salaries, make them impossible to fire and run airline finances into the ground.
a.
 
phxa340
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 116):
Unfortunately, unions turn jobs like flight attendants into "careers."

How is what a flight attendent does any less important than what you do for your career. I am sorry but this has to be the most ignorant comment I have read on here.

Try convincing my Dad of TWA who was on his feet serving the customers and ensuring their safety for 20 + years that it wasn't a career.

[Edited 2012-04-20 16:55:34]
 
LAXdude1023
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:56 pm

What is happening to the scope regarding flight length? Pilot pensions? I know the FAs are being frozen.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
MAH4546
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 117):
How is what a flight attendent does any less important than what you do for your career. I am sorry but this has to be the most ignorant comment I have read on here.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said it was "less important." I said it was a highly disposable job, which it is. Easily trained, and plenty of demand for fresh new-hires constantly. In fact, that's how it used to be until unions messed things up.

You don't like to hear it, fine, not my problem. But it's the truth.
a.
 
etops1
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:13 am

From what I have heard US is offering its FA 's a $40,000 buy out package with lifetime medical . They are matching the 401 k 10% after 50 yrs of age and will not go lower than $48 an hr on a top out pay . This is part of Parker's package to the AA FA it includes us as well . This is al speculative but I got It from good sources I also heard that the company is in negotiations as we speak with afa . Off to FRA now . Good night .
 
flflyguy
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:22 am

I find it interesting that on the day that AA management received the possibly ultimate vote of no confidence from its employees, the only update to the Flight Service Website asks us to "Celebrate Earth Day on 04/20/12."

Typical rearranging of the deck chairs.

Believe what you want about the culpability of management vs. the unions at AA, but don't you think it is interesting that there has been no "KEEP AA MY AA" campaign....from union or non union employees. I think that speaks volumes about the confidence (or lack thereof) in senior management by AA employees.
The views expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer.
 
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EA CO AS
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 116):
Unfortunately, unions turn jobs like flight attendants into "careers."

I'm no union cheerleader, but saying being a flight attendant is a "career" in parentheses like that, as if you're marginalizing the legitimacy of that as a valid career choice, is insulting.

A career is what you make it.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Creep
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:35 am

Subject: Notes from APA Meeting

Name stays AA
HQ in DFW
US comes to Oneworld (hurts UAL)
Pay banding
Starting point is current green book.
5.5% raise on date of signing
3% / yrs 2-6, then avg of UAL/DAL A319
no longer a sep payband
Vac goes to 3+40/day. Better accrual
Hard freeze & 14% DC Plan
PBS. US West pilots love it. Well managed. Lines 83. P/u to 90.
Keep current rigs.
Scope committee is "giddy" with what is offered. Parker doesn't understand code share. He wants the revenue. Max Dom code share = 4% of total asm's.
Keeping AA's Boeing/Bus order. Very excited to get 787.
Unsure about AE. Parker wants to see books then decide. Hates 50 seaters.
Prob convert most 319 orders to 320/321's. Med costs will go from 14% to 17% (I think 1113 had it going to 26%. Not a sure thing, but APA seems quite confident. No timeline given, more than 2 mos, possibly by end of summer. Horton is said to be steaming mad. Seniority may go to expedited arbitration. Expect percentile in type over any DOH (aka DAL/NWA) US East guys will get about 25-30% raise out of this.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:38 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 122):
I'm no union cheerleader, but saying being a flight attendant is a "career" in parentheses like that, as if you're marginalizing the legitimacy of that as a valid career choice, is insulting.

A career is what you make it.

Me too. I'm of the opinion AA unions have been quite unreasonable in many ways, but that really is insulting to marginalize a profession like that. Especially amongst us folks that seemingly know the value and appreciate a great flight attendant. I'm not saying theres a causal link to a good flight attendant and unions, but I am saying there is a link between good flight attendants and passion for their CAREERS.

It's one thing to say unions protect bad employees or have gotten too strong to outbalance a healthy equilibrium with management, but this career comment really rubs me the wrong way..

I simply wish that the employees who don't really care for their unions were the ones leading them.

There are times when I think all this mumbo jumbo about "the 1%" villains and mentality is overblown and misguided, and times like this where it's very much accurate. None the less, this came from someone who proposes a regressive tax rate, so view it within that clear proletariat mentality.

[Edited 2012-04-20 17:41:50]

[Edited 2012-04-20 17:55:15]
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
boeing773er
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:52 am

I think this merger is going to occur, it has most of the right components. Parker pretty much dealt with AA's top problem first, the Unions. With the employee's and union of AA actually being behind this merger that will have something no other merger has recently had, employee support.

Yes the new airline may not be a match made in heaven but, it will be a stronger airline than two separate.

The only major problem I can foresee Mr. Parker approaching is to get the creditors behind him, but I'm sure after next quater's reporting the creditors will be all for this merger.
Work Hard, Fly Right.
 
Byrdluvs747
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:54 am

One thing that hasn't been discussed(or very little) is scope. Has there been any mention about ULH flying?

Quoting blink182 (Reply 102):
AA pilots won't willingly hand over their 777 flights to PVG, LHR, and GRU, so what happens to the captain who has been with HP since the late 80s and is still flying PHX-CLE? How does he win in all of this?

There would have to be some elaborate fencing implemented otherwise HP pilots will lose out big time, especially on routes where HP and AA routes overlap like PHX-ORD/DFW/MIA. However, even with fencing, HP pilots will continue to be held down by US and now AA pilot seniority. Initially, we will probably see HP-US pilots fenced out of any 777 flying.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 93):
While I'm a big fan of retaining the classic AA livery, this is steadily growing on me:

Can we stop with the juvenile hybrid liveries. A livery needs a lot more that cutting & pasting in photoshop. That looks like something to appeal to a 13 year old.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
IndianicWorld
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:58 am

Interesting times ahead.

Seems that this carrier loves swallowing other carriers and taking their identity  

I really can not see how keeping all the staff will work. Mergers are meant to be about creating efficiencies, and broadening the service offering of the carriers to compete effectively. Having huge overheads is just going to lead to the same issues occuring again down the track.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:59 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 126):

Can we stop with the juvenile hybrid liveries. A livery needs a lot more that cutting & pasting in photoshop. That looks like something to appeal to a 13 year old.

Well, if that's something supposed to appeal to a 13 year old, seems like half of these airlines these days must be going after the 10 and under demographic.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
JFKPurser
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:00 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 110):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
But they still have to make a deal with the AA creditors

I think this has been understated. The Unions are creditors. 3 of them. That's a significant vote.

Consensus is not required.

I have been assured by sources close to the matter that creditor approval is not an issue. There several other members of the UCC who actually agreed to the US plan even before Parker approached the unions.
 
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1337Delta764
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:01 am

And here is the new merger logo:
 
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EA CO AS
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 126):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 93):
While I'm a big fan of retaining the classic AA livery, this is steadily growing on me:

Can we stop with the juvenile hybrid liveries.

Lighten up, Francis.   

I didn't make it; I merely re-posted it here. Settle down.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ripcordd
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:05 am

FYI Arpey was not forced out he left because of them filing for BK he was against it from day one good or bad he stood his ground. I have seen what US has offered to the pilots and fa's but what abot to the twu? and what union do the mechanics and rampers at us belong to? Cause I know the second most hated people after managment is the TWU and I would see AA voting for anyone but them to represent them.
 
AirCalSNA
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:08 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 130):
And here is the new merger logo:

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
 
Byrdluvs747
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:21 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 128):
Well, if that's something supposed to appeal to a 13 year old, seems like half of these airlines these days must be going after the 10 and under demographic.

So are you saying that AA should strive to look like an airline run by 10 year olds?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
JFKPurser
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:29 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 116):
Unions "protect" these positions, give flight attendants inflated salaries, make them impossible to fire and run airline finances into the ground.

Yes -- you're right. Airlines with highly-paid, long tenured FAs like Lufthansa and Cathay Pacific have continually lost billions and billions of dollars over the last decade. It is solely due to flight attendant pay that the entire US airline industry is in shambles. Gosh, I feel so personally responsible for that now. Thanks for the illumination. Who knew -- an-easily replaced idiot like me had so much control of so many big, shiny planes. I think I will write Horton a check to help alleviate some of my guilt.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:33 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 134):
So are you saying that AA should strive to look like an airline run by 10 year olds?

No, i'm saying that it's a step above some of the genuinely crap liveries out there.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
JFKPurser
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US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:41 am

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 109):
That is not the fault of US management. That is soley the doing of USAPA. A contract cannot be negotiated, until USAPA agrees to seniority integration. USAPA will be fun to watch now. If the AA merger goes through, USAPA is gone, and the agreed, arbitrated sli can happen. The AA merger would actuall facilitate a new contract, and create 1 pilot group out of the 3.

Same is true for FA union -- APFA becomes governing agent on day of merger due to majority. Not sure about TWU...

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 109):
If the UCC petitions to have that excusivity terminated, it'll happen. The gavel falls both ways.

Which is exactly why this is going to happen sooner than anyone thinks. The votes on the UCC are apparently already there.

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 108):
Since it seems like you have a bit of knowladge on this topic, do you know if its going to be something interesting, or something bland like that Japan Airlines and Finnair did.

Nobody including me has seen any details. I really hope they don't screw it up!
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:44 am

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 135):

Yes -- you're right. Airlines with highly-paid, long tenured FAs like Lufthansa and Cathay Pacific have continually lost billions and billions of dollars over the last decade. It is solely due to flight attendant pay that the entire US airline industry is in shambles. Gosh, I feel so personally responsible for that now. Thanks for the illumination. Who knew -- an-easily replaced idiot like me had so much control of so many big, shiny planes. I think I will write Horton a check to help alleviate some of my guilt.

I wouldn't waste your breath arguing. Some people won't be happy until Horton is whipping the serfs just like rowers on ships back in 30AD!
 
LFutia
Posts: 3159
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2002 11:04 am

US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:53 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 130):
And here is the new merger logo:

Not gonna happen and besides as stated in several posts, "A WHOLE NEW IDENTITY WILL BE CREATED" and besides that looks absolutely childish.

Leo/ORD
Leo/ORD
 
rising
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:59 pm

US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:01 am

If it sounds too good to be true, it always is. Most of the comments in this thread read like a press release from US Airways. I think anyone working for AMR should take all the promises from the CEO of your competitor with a grain of salt.

I am not saying AMR's plan is superior, or that the US Airways "deal" is bad. I just think a little buyer beware might be wise.
If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.
 
YYZAMS
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:54 pm

US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:03 am

I hope they come up with something better than the wonderful creativeness United proved. I hope it will be something innovative for the industry...like a whale painted on the plane or something like that.

I guess people are packing up their things on Amon Carter blvd.
 
crj900lr
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:44 am

US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 55):
Parker forced SHARES on USAirways over more expensive, but far more capable, SABRE. That will be a much more herculean task to do at AA - the airline that built SABRE, has more institutional knowledge of it than anyone else, and which has far, far more people who are far, far more experience with SABRE than anybody at USAirways is with either SABRE or SHARES. Parker decimated many aspects of the USAirways onboard product, and then has slowly added some semblance of that back. AA has an excellent premium domestic product today, and I vividly remember AA flight attendants complaining years ago about how embarrassing some of AA's service cutbacks were. When I compare AA's service - even with those cutbacks - to some aspects of USAirways, I'm concerned.

SHARES has to go. It is a horrible system. SABRE is the right choice, much easier to use. Yes there are alot of entries to remember but once you do that its a very easy system to use. From someone who has used PACER, SABRE and SHARES, SABRE by far is the way to go. Yea it might cost a little bit more but in the long run it is definatly worth it.
 
Avianca
Posts: 5376
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:12 am

Quoting rj777 (Reply 11):


I'm willing to bet, however (and I don't want to say what I'm willing to bet) that the name will be one of 3 things:

-US Airlines
-American Airlines
-American Airways

what about US American Airlines or US American Airways! sounds not to shaby!
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
flyfree727
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:11 am

US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:15 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 138):
I wouldn't waste your breath arguing. Some people won't be happy until Horton is whipping the serfs just like rowers on ships back in 30AD!

You are exactly right! I think many management types hiding behind profiles on here are starting to show their true colors.. Oh my when KARAM rears her head she is not pretty!! I don't care who signs my paycheck or what logo is on the side of a plane. Im looking for the best deal possible. Not any different than airline management when it comes to their "bargain shopping."

AA ORD
 
User avatar
N62NA
Posts: 4501
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:26 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 94):

The gutting of CBA's is always progress. Unions are destructive and malicious, as the AA unions have shown us. A company with weaker unions is a company with a brighter future.

Uh.... no. And I am no big fan of unions, but in the private sector, unions are even to this day useful. Now, if you're talking public sector....

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 119):

You don't like to hear it, fine, not my problem. But it's the truth.

Someone appears to have taken a grumpy pill today.
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1750
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:30 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 143):
what about US American Airlines or US American Airways! sounds not to shaby!

Have you read the thread? Already announced, and quoted in numerous replies. It's going to be American.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
texan
Posts: 4071
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:32 am

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 114):
mah4546 this statement is very ignorant of you.
The gutting of CBA's is always progress. Unions are destructive and malicious, as the AA unions have shown us. A company with weaker unions is a company with a brighter future.....
Look at the non-union employees getting the ax right cause they are not union. If AA would have it everything would be contracted out to the cheapest possible labor. While I dont always agree with the unions they have a place in large companies. I dont think anyone brought this up but does Eagle have a home within USAIR with their costs so much higher than what they are paying?

From a purely business perspective, mah4546 is right, though. Companies dislike having unionised employees. Dealing with unions increases labour costs. Some are just better at dealing with them than others. But from a company's perspective, if you can gut a CBA and rid yourself of any unions in the company, you will have a better chance at making a profit from your labour--although the company still must be managed well to succeed. It is not an ignorant statement mah4546 made, just an unpopular but accurate assessment of the view companies take toward organised labour. And not just at AMR but at every company.

On a separate note, it will be interesting to watch how this plays out. I won't try to guess what will happen because none of us have enough information at this point to make an informed guess. While there are some potential benefits to this proposed merger, there are also just as many drawbacks. And then DOJ would still have to approve it. And I wouldn't be surprised to see a couple of competing bids emerge.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
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Jamake1
Posts: 1011
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 2:30 pm

US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:45 am

MAH4546 is certainly entitled to his opinion (although I do find that his rancorous anti-union bias somewhat undermines is otherwise reasoned credibility). He and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I believe that a positive corporate culture does wonders to keep some carriers from unionizing. JetBlue being a quintessential example. When I was first employed in the industry, I too was against unions. However, after two mergers that saw the complete dismantling of my first employer's route network and outsourcing of our jobs, I began to change my tune.

I then became a flight attendant for a non-union carrier and came to understand quickly that FAA mandated regulations governing crew members are minimal and far inferior to other industrialized nations such as Canada, France, Germany, Japan, and the U.K. In a nutshell, the FAA doesn't permit airlines to "schedule" crew members for more than 14 hours of duty (exclusive of international regulations). Being a crew member, one quickly discovers that "scheduled" duty times and "actual" duty times are two different things entirely.

So while a U.S. carrier may not "schedule" a crew member for more than 14 hours of duty time, there are no FAA regulations for "actual" duty times. Meaning, if an aircraft incurs a lengthy maintenance delay or is subject to lengthy weather delays and/or diversions, crew members' "actual" duty time can...and often does...go well beyond 24 hrs of continuous duty...without crew rest. At the end of the day, a crew member being on continuous duty (as I often was) meant that one's situational awareness broke down and compromised one's primary responsibility on the aircraft (safety). The only way to get around the FAA's "actual" duty times is to negotiate crew rest and duty time provisions that supersede the FAA's dismal minimum standards....and that process is through collective bargaining.

Most of the traveling public in the U.S. is not aware that crew members' duty time can exceed 24 hrs of continuous duty without any crew rest. After having lived through recurring experiences of continuous duty days that frequently exceeded 16, 18, or 24 hours on duty, I came to realize the importance of having leverage through collective bargaining, which is the only way to close this loophole between "scheduled" duty time vs. "actual" duty time.

As it relates to the current situation at American Airlines, current AMR management's plan of reorganization aims to establish code-sharing agreements with the likes of JetBlue and Alaska, thereby outsourcing a significant number of pilot, flight attendant, and maintenance jobs. With AA's respective unions basically having to accept the company's term sheets without any real sort of "consentual" agreement between both parties (AA labor and AA management) and Mr. Parker striking agreements that are much more "consentual", it is little wonder that all of AA's union-represented employees are supporting a Parker-led takeover.

At the end of the day, it is a union's job to protect the interests of its membership and Mr. Horton's plan of reorganization would be significantly more detrimental to AA's employees than what Mr. Parker is proposing. As members of the creditors' committee, much like other AMR creditors, AA's unionized employees are going to go for the proposal that is in their best interests. That doesn't necessarily make them "malicious" or "destructive" as MAH4546's statements proclaim...
Come fly the sun.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4325
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:46 am

I can't think of a better industry to exemplify the conundrum of unions gone bad, yet the fundamental need for their presence (or right to form).

[Edited 2012-04-20 19:47:21]
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5144
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

US Airways Strikes Merger Deal With AA Unions Part 1

Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 105):
US needs to sort out its own pilots but my guess is that this offer will be extended to the US pilots as well. US and AA can then have the pilots unions sort out seniority or punt it to binding arbitration which keeps management hands clean.

Yeah, too bad USAPA found a way to nullify binding arbitration.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 132):
and what union do the mechanics and rampers at us belong to? Cause I know the second most hated people after managment is the TWU and I would see AA voting for anyone but them to represent them.

Ramp is IAM. HP used to be TWU.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 143):
what about US American Airlines or US American Airways! sounds not to shaby!

Redundant and silly. Reminds me of the commercials on late night tv for "National American University." Just sounds very fly-by-night.

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