capitalflyer
Posts: 574
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:25 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
150 737-8MAX (replace A319s, A320s, 737-500s, growth?)

Is 150 enough to replace all those? I think UA has 150 A319s and A320s alone. I may be wrong.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 100):

Is 150 enough to replace all those? I think UA has 150 A319s and A320s alone. I may be wrong.

Last I checked it was about 97 active A320s and 50 A319s. Don't forget about the 159 757s as well although many of the 757s were later build. The 757-300s are newer than the A319s or A320s.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26511
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:36 pm

Quoting Chiad (Reply 97):
Considering the MAX is 2 years behind I believe that Boeing has more to worry about filling the gap than Airbus.

Airbus' production rate on the A320 (oeo and neo) has been, currently is, and will be higher than Boeing's production rate on the 737 (NG and MAX) at the same period of time. So Airbus needs to sell more frames per year than Boeing because they deliver more frames per year than Boeing.

Boeing also secured over 1000 737NG orders across 2010 and 2011 and I believe that is a fair bit more than Airbus secured non-neo A320 orders. And at the moment, Boeing has 114 737NG orders vs. 56 for the non-neo A320.

Taken together, I think Boeing need not sweat bullets about keeping the line full.

[Edited 2012-04-24 14:38:24]
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18414
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 88):
there are 2228 NG's on the order books for Boeing.

With a line that is being accelerated to lower the per unit costs to ~500/year.

That means Boeing needs to sell out
2012
2013
2014
2015
2016
most of 2017 will be OEO
part of 2018 will still be OEO
some of 2019 will probably still be OEO

Even if Boeing gives Airbus a production rate advantage (thus cost per unit), at a mere 400 a year, Boeing would need to sell some more. If they accelerate to 500/year, Boeing is indeed short of sales to bridge to the MAX by about over a thousand.

The Max doesn't enter service until 2017 per Boeing:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...tion-in-puget-sound-134768363.html

That is two more years of production Boeing must sell.

The concern for Boeing is what will their rate of production be as they transition over to the MAX. There is a high cost to ramp up and down production rates.

It is in the interest of Boeing/GE to accelerate 737 production. Hence why I think UA will lease current engine 737s and replace them with MAXs in the 2020 to 2025 time frame for some of the purchase.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
ua76heavy
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:37 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:07 pm

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 85):
I don't know about that. They (UA) gave Boeing a swift kick in the ball bearings when they ordered the A320 because they didn't like the 737 anymore and promptly sent it out of the fleet.

Not true. At that time, Boeing offered the 734 but it didn't have the transcon range UA wanted. The best the B734 could do was DEN to the east coast. In contrast, the A320 had the legs to do east coast-west coast non-stop without penalty.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 92):
How much penalties? There is no telling. I am sure they would be substantial given the fact that Airbus let UA off the hook for the A320's in return for the A350 order.

I say transfer the deposits to a bunch of A320NEOs, and use the subfleet for their Latin American operations. Use the Boeing NBs for domestic, Hawaii and TATL.
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 3533
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:30 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 92):
With 50 787's on their way, CO management, and a fairly young long-haul fleet still active, it makes no sense to keep them.

How did this turn into a "will UA cancel their A350's" thread? Seriously, a potential 737 order has NO BEARING on their previous order for the A350!
As to your point specifically, they have 50 787's on order. That doesn't come close to replacing their entire fleet of 767's, 777's, 747's so saying that it makes no sense to keep the A350's on order makes even LESS sense. Especially given that UA has stated that the A350's will indeed be replacement for 777's and 747's.

Back on topic, I'd guess many of the earlier deliveries (if this order actually comes to fruition) will be to replace the older PMUA A320 series aircraft.
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 2208
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:38 pm

It will take a while for the new n/b order to be filled in numbers so the 320's will be around for a while. They are refitting the overhead bins etc so they aren't leaving the fleet anytime soon.

The notion the 78X will replace all of their wide bodies is silly. The mission profile for the 359 differs from the 788/789 so they compliment not compete with each other. I'd love to see some 77X's but that is a long ways off at this point.
 
United1
Posts: 3886
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:39 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 106):
It will take a while for the new n/b order to be filled in numbers so the 320's will be around for a while. They are refitting the overhead bins etc so they aren't leaving the fleet anytime soon.

Absolutely...the 320/319s are not going away anytime soon...the oldest ones from 1993 have a few years of life left but its time to start thinking about a replacement for those frames (as well as the older 752s) which is what this order will address. The newest ones from 2002 have 10-15 years of life left in the fleet this order is not meant to replace those frames.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 92):
With 50 787's on their way, CO management, and a fairly young long-haul fleet still active, it makes no sense to keep them.

The 350 and 787 make perfect sense for United....different aircraft for different missions...I think in time that we will see that the 350 and 787 compliment each other just like the 777 and 330 seem to be this generations of aircraft winning combination.

As for CO management being in charge its worth noting that the last numbers I saw had a mix of 53% PMUA and 47% PMCO managers. To me at least that seems to be a fairly balanced mix... I would not read too much into a Boeing order from UA they have always had a soft spot for anything with the word Boeing (or Pratt & Whitney) on it. Airbus won the UA order for one very simple reason...Boeing got complacent and offered the 737-400 as a competitor to the 320-200...that was kind of a no brainier for UA. It's been reported that UA selecting the 320 was one of the primary reasons why Boeing developed the NG.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
fpetrutiu
Posts: 730
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 100):
Is 150 enough to replace all those? I think UA has 150 A319s and A320s alone. I may be wrong.

They are talking 200 nb aircraft, and let's not forget about the other 53 (38 737-700's and 15 737-900ER's) already on firm order. That would bring it to 253 frames. I think it should do the trick.
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
ua76heavy
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:37 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 105):
Especially given that UA has stated that the A350's will indeed be replacement for 777's and 747's.

That was before the merger. Now that CO's management is in the driver's seat, it's a brand new game.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26511
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:41 am

Quoting ua76heavy (Reply 109):
That was before the merger. Now that CO's management is in the driver's seat, it's a brand new game.

DL did defer NW's 787 order to the next decade, but they did place a 100-frame 737-900ER order.

So yes, CO could cancel/defer the A350s, but they'd either have to order another Airbus model or accept having to pay Airbus to do so (forfeiture of deposits and/or cancellation fees).
 
fpetrutiu
Posts: 730
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 110):
So yes, CO could cancel/defer the A350s, but they'd either have to order another Airbus model or accept having to pay Airbus to do so (forfeiture of deposits and/or cancellation fees).

I agree, and those would make it hardly economically logical to say that they don't need them. UA is on the hook for the A350 weather they like it or not. However, I am sure they have the option to sublease them or sell them if their really wanted to. I doubt the later but, you never know. On the other hand, they do need something of that capacity as well, especially to/from heavily slot restricted airports where they have no choice. I see the A350 fitting in nicely, but I do not expect a follow up order, especially since they have also B789's coming their way (50 787 in total). I can see any additional long-haul-large-capacity to go the 787's route.
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
kfitz
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:47 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:50 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 107):
As for CO management being in charge its worth noting that the last numbers I saw had a mix of 53% PMUA and 47% PMCO managers.

Those who make strategic decisions (executive level) has been shifting since merger close with more and more ex-PMUA leaving, it's ~80/20 stacked toward PMCO.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:03 am

Quoting msp747 (Reply 64):
Do you mean the 787 is not an option from a capacity sense? Both the 788 and 789 have a range of more than 8000 nautical miles.

No, they don't.

The 788 is topping out at 7600 right now and for the foreseeable future.

The 789 might have 8000nm range, but is quite a bit smaller.

NS
 
astuteman
Posts: 6950
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:35 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 102):
Taken together, I think Boeing need not sweat bullets about keeping the line full.

I don't disagree with you there Stitch. But don't you think it's a bit rich that there are those on here that also agree with you, and yet have Airbus in an almost untenable position in being able to close a gap that's close to two years shorter.

If Boeing don't have a problem, do YOU think Airbus have got one?   

I'm sure those people were born with more brain cells than a 4 day old foetus. It's just a shame that such blind predjudice prevents them from using them........

This has turned into one of those threads that makes me wonder why I still bother with A-net......

Quoting ER757 (Reply 105):
How did this turn into a "will UA cancel their A350's" thread?

The same way it always does......

Rgds
 
dbo861
Posts: 1021
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:20 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:43 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 113):
The 788 is topping out at 7600 right now and for the foreseeable future.

According to Boeing's website, the 788's range is supposed to be 7,650 to 8,200 nautical miles, so they're only 50 NM from the lower end of the expected range.
 
MakeMinesLAX
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:22 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:17 am

Quoting warreng24 (Reply 80):
PMUA and PMCO do not have any B733's in the fleet. They were phased out years ago.

"Years ago" doesn't quite seem like the appropriate description. It's only been 2.5 years since the final PMUA 733s were retired.

I had the privilege of being onboard the final flight segment - LAX to SFO - on October 28, 2009. This was the last leg of the commemorative "Flight 737", which passed through all the hubs - IAD, ORD, DEN, LAX and SFO. The aircraft, N331UA, and a sister ship were flown to VCV the next morning.

The point made on that day was that 40 years of 737 service with UA had come to an end. Now, they're back, and are going to be around for a while longer.
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3595
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:24 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 50):
it may be modified from the 900 to the 1000

I was hoping UA would push for the 359R...10,000+nm!....now were talkin'   
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3893
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:37 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 114):
This has turned into one of those threads that makes me wonder why I still bother with A-net......

Although we have seen worse threads over the past years. But you are , as usual, 100% spot-on with your comments.
 
United1
Posts: 3886
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:48 am

Quoting kfitz (Reply 112):
Quoting United1 (Reply 107):
As for CO management being in charge its worth noting that the last numbers I saw had a mix of 53% PMUA and 47% PMCO managers.

Those who make strategic decisions (executive level) has been shifting since merger close with more and more ex-PMUA leaving, it's ~80/20 stacked toward PMCO.

It's not quite stacked that high....but at any rate none of those people make decisions in a vacuum or alone. There are a number of people (maintenance, finance, inflight ect) who look at every aircraft purchase before sending it up tot he board for approval.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
User avatar
USAF336TFS
Posts: 1362
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:55 am

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 79):
just like the A350 order is perfect for UA and Airbus.

I still wouldn't be shocked if it was cancelled in the future, and yes, I'm one of those who thinks it's on shaky ground because of UA's management structure, but on the other hand, you could be quite correct. I'd love to see UA's reaction to the 777X. It's supposed to be an A350-killer. Time will tell.

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 79):
Its like hearing the LH 747-8i order due to politics

     

Couldn't agree more and I think a similar comment made was deleted from this thread. When I hear this about the 748 I have to ask, "Which politics, and on what side of the pond are we talking about?"  
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
User avatar
drerx7
Posts: 4386
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:19 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:57 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 117):
I was hoping UA would push for the 359R...10,000+nm!....now were talkin'

Lol...I wouldn't be on it for 10,000+nm...I'd tap out 3/4 of the way.
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
VC10er
Posts: 4148
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:18 pm

Quoting ordpark (Reply 52):

They were crusty, may still be in economy, but biz and First look and feel brand new. Aside from a 747, for business travel I prefer the 767 and even the 757 TATL.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
windy95
Posts: 2755
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:40 pm

It will be a 200 plus order and the 900ER's will be used to replace 90+ 757's with many of the options running into the MAX.
 
phxa340
Posts: 1068
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 118):
Although we have seen worse threads over the past years. But you are , as usual, 100% spot-on with your comments.

This falls both ways as I pointed out with the Airbus fans saying the 748-I was a political purchase and the Boeing fans saying that Airbus basically gave UA the A350s for free. Balanced judgement is the best judgement but alas were all fans of certain aircraft and our bias tends to come out in our excitement !

With that being said United was reported to have been extremely close to ordering the A321NEO back in 2011 so until its on the books ... we shall see.
 
User avatar
drerx7
Posts: 4386
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:19 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:24 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 124):
With that being said United was reported to have been extremely close to ordering the A321NEO back in 2011 so until its on the books ... we shall see.

I didn't hear that. Excuse my skepticism - but I would like some links coming from a poster with a screen name of PHXA340 lol.
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
User avatar
rotating14
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:54 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:18 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 125):

Hello all. I too have yet to hear anything remotely close to such. Perhaps you are closer to the inside than we are but all I heard was they were going to place an order before the 2012 and that there was speculation of an order mix of both NB and WB.


I believe the point that folks (I included) who are saying that United will cancel the A350 is because the management at the reigns is Continental, not United, therefore pitting the hometown favorite against the foreign competitor. What does United have to lose by dropping the order besides heart broken member on the forum?? They get the 787-8 faster and and by doing so they can make ROI faster and who likes this?? Investors and management.


United will make the best business decision for United and if it calls dropping the A350 for just the B787-8 or adding some 787-9's, then that's the case.



Disclaimer----> (I'm not pro B or A but rather pro aviation)   
 
phxa340
Posts: 1068
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 125):

Sorry it was 2009.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/un...nited-airlines-leans-to-airbu.html

I have said the 737-8MAX is perfect for UA so before forming an opinion about me based on just one of my posts and screenname actually read all of them  
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18414
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:46 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 113):
The 788 is topping out at 7600 right now and for the foreseeable future.

Is that the current range? I've being hearing numbers a little lower (7450nm). Note, I'm asking as I've lost track of the current weight reduction.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
fpetrutiu
Posts: 730
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 126):
United will make the best business decision for United and if it calls dropping the A350 for just the B787-8 or adding some 787-9's, then that's the case.

They already have 789's coming their way. But the 787 is not enough, they will need a small sub-fleet of larger twins like the A350 or even some 777-300ER's to replace some 747's. I can see the case for dropping the A350 but it would a very long shot. I do not see them ordering B748i though. I think the A350 would stay as is, but there would be no more "top off" orders for it.
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
User avatar
sunrisevalley
Posts: 5392
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:26 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 128):
Is that the current range? I've being hearing numbers a little lower (7450nm). Note, I'm asking as I've lost track of the current weight reduction.

PIANO X is using an EIS OEW of 120.792t. for the 788. Based on the 242 passenger standard max range is 7140nm
If and when they get down to 116t the max range will get to about 7700nm. My impression was that the DOW was to be about 116t so if they get rid of often quoted 8t overweight and allow about 4t to bring it up to DOW the 116t number should be about right. To get the 7450nm number the DOW would be about 118t.
 
neutronstar73
Posts: 793
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:57 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:50 am



Quoting Acheron (Reply 93):
How about the fact that the A350 actually complements the 787 by virtue of its bigger size?. UA won't be the only airline operating a mix of 787 along the A350.

But I guess some people are in a hurry to get rid of anything Airbus.

But you can say the same thing about the 777, in fact it may be a better complement to the 787, due to fleet commonality and a ready pilot pool. so that's why people are saying or speculating that the A350 may not survive at United. But please, don't let your affection for Airbus cloud a pretty solid business case for an A350 cancellation in favor of the 777 (and factor in Continental's affection for Boeing aircraft.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 114):
But don't you think it's a bit rich that there are those on here that also agree with you, and yet have Airbus in an almost untenable position in being able to close a gap that's close to two years shorter.

You are reading too much into that, i think. I think they are only acknowledging Airbus's own comments on the issue and Airbus' concerns about plugging that gap. No one doesn't really think they won't be able to do it, but it is a concern for them. As for the name-calling....  Wow!

[Edited 2012-04-25 19:58:47]
 
Acheron
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:18 am

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 131):
due to fleet commonality and a ready pilot pool.

What fleet commonality is there between the 787 and 777 other than they are made by the same manufacturer?.

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 131):
But please, don't let your affection for Airbus cloud a pretty solid

As opposed to your obvious Boeing faboyism that has derailed several threads in the past already, with uninformed and misleading posts?.  
 
PEET7G
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:00 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:22 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 132):
What fleet commonality is there between the 787 and 777 other than they are made by the same manufacturer?

Honestly guys, instead of going into endless A vs B fights and insulting each other, why not do a little research?

787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777 (by pygmalion Sep 8 2011 in Civil Aviation)

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...rticles/qtr_1_08/article_02_2.html

Commonality can be maintained not only with totally identical instruments and cockpit layout.

With all that said, I too do not believe the new UA will give up their A350 slots. Maybe if Boeing comes up with a really promising and competitive 777X.
Peet7G
 
Acheron
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:21 am

But apparently the Airbus pilot pool in UA is nonexistant, according to some people...

[Edited 2012-04-25 23:29:08]
 
User avatar
frigatebird
Posts: 1693
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:32 am

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 126):
I believe the point that folks (I included) who are saying that United will cancel the A350 is because the management at the reigns is Continental, not United, therefore pitting the hometown favorite against the foreign competitor. What does United have to lose by dropping the order besides heart broken member on the forum??

Losing an excellent deal on an excellent aircraft that perfectly fits UA's needs.

UA's current management are not stupid. They won't turn down an excellent offer or cancel a big order just because it's from Airbus. Same way for the 737's, if UA will order them it is because it will offer the best package (financing, delivery slots etc.).

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 133):
With all that said, I too do not believe the new UA will give up their A350 slots. Maybe if Boeing comes up with a really promising and competitive 777X.

UA has indicated that they will be interested in what Boeing will offer regarding a new 777. But IMHO it can only compete with the A350 in a high density 10 abreast Y seating, around 400 seats. While I believe UA will need something bigger than an A359 one day, A350-1000's will be far more likely.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
Nicoeddf
Posts: 919
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:13 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:03 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 120):
I'd love to see UA's reaction to the 777X. It's supposed to be an A350-killer.

Whohooo, time runs faster every day!

The 787 was called to be a A330 killer long before EIS of the 787 but now we are already at the point where "paper airplanes" are already killed by other "paper airplanes"??? 

How ridiculous can it get...
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
that your bought with your sacrifice
Deception justified for your holy design
High on our platform spewing out your crimes
from the altar of god
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:30 am

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 14):

you might have hit the NAIL on the HEAD with that comment. Try 5-10 minutes walk.
 
neutronstar73
Posts: 793
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:57 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:09 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 132):
As opposed to your obvious Boeing faboyism that has derailed several threads in the past already, with uninformed and misleading posts?.
HA! Projection is not limited to movie cameras and TVs.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 134):
But apparently the Airbus pilot pool in UA is nonexistant, according to some people...

Way to miss the point. Whoever said (besides you) that the Airbus pilot pool at UA was non-existent?

However, last time I checked, I didn't think the A320 had a common type rating with the 777 or 787. Perhaps you can enlighten the thread about that? Perhaps Airbus will succeed in having a reduced training program for the A320-A350 pilots to fly both aircraft. I would think that would be a great benefit...

But

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 133):

Well said.

[Edited 2012-04-26 04:13:20]
 
Nicoeddf
Posts: 919
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:13 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:02 pm

I will ask it again:

Why is it impossible to discuss a great possible order for 737MAX for UA, without diving into the possibility of a cancellation of the A350?

Why do you all here think that

- UA hasn't done its homework in the first place when they evaluated the A350 and orderered it subsequently, obviously with a strong business case
- CO management is so much more capable that they wisely see all the mistakes in UAs evaluation of the A350 and therefore don't have any other concerns but cancelling the A350
- YOU know the "solid business case for cancelling" the A350 when UA clearly decided FOR it (and not AGAINST the 787)
- the distance between HQs are only one bit relevant for a multi billion USD order for a listed company

And last but not least:

Why do you all really think that (possibly) ordering the 737MAX as outcome of a tender process for an excellent a/c is a direct implication of UA(+CO) cancelling an TOTALLY DIFFERENT A/C?

That logic goes way beyond anything I have seen in business life and aviation acquisition processes.
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
that your bought with your sacrifice
Deception justified for your holy design
High on our platform spewing out your crimes
from the altar of god
 
Max Q
Posts: 7846
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:07 am

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 63):

in the mid-90 is was semi-public knowledge that CO's best route was NRT-HNL, hence it was a 742.

In fact CO added more 747-200s (ex-BA) on to GUM-NRT/NGO/HNL in addtional to NRT-HNL prior to the "Asian Flu".

There were published plans to shift the a/c to CDG and LGW, but the cost of upgrades for TATL ops killed that plan, all the more with the then new 777 rolling in.

You are correct about the pacific operation but we were operating 747's to LGW, CDG, MAD, FRA and a couple of other cities from EWR and IAH during that era.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns are a malignant cancer that are destroying our society
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:38 am

I'm not sure this has been brought out but the A350 Order was financed by the 42 A320's still on firm order that mysteriously got Cancelled. The 25 options were just that! Options! unless the A350 is a world beater (or the B787 is a complete FLOP) they'll never see the light of day.Tilton was leaving HIS mark on United just like Steve Wolfe left HIS mark on Northwest, USAir and United with that UGLY GREY PAint Jobl He KNEW He wasn't going to be here when the Airplanes were delivered and I would BET there's a HEFTY Cancellation fee were the order to get cancelled by the NEW regime. Since UAL already OWNS 3 A330's that have NEVER seen a United Hangar I would not Doubt that UAL LEASING could find good and Profitable Homes for all 25 of the A350's if they don't like them...But as of right NOW?? We Do Plan to operate them and we're getting updated software to monitor their System Faults Real Time as we do the B777 and the B747. (looking forward to seeing them and making the comparison where it counts!! Evaluating the Systems and their Performance. With the B787 being an ALL electric airplane and the A350 being pretty conventional it will show Where the future is going. And the B787 and the B777 carrying a common Type rating
 
User avatar
Schweigend
Posts: 530
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:47 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boe

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:22 am

Dear Stir Fry,

Your post has plenty of interesting things in it, but it is hard to understand.

....

Me, I think United will take delivery of the A350 and will use it to replace its oldest 777s -- UA were one of the first customers for the 777, and they have 777As that will be twenty years old soon. (But how long was the 777 meant to last anyway...?)

The A350s, when they are delivered, will just replace early 772s, I predict.


The 737MAX aircraft on prospective order would IMO be meant to augment UA's narrowbody fleet, including the the replacement of some domestic 757s, of which United has over 90.

[Edited 2012-04-27 01:26:48]
 
User avatar
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1881
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:26 am

The more I read this thread, the more I think it is becomming the "A350 will never be taken by UA", just like "AA will never buy Airbus" one.

Pathetic.
Tarriffs are taxes. Taxation is theft. You are not entitled to anything.
If it's a Boeing, I'm not going.
 
phxa340
Posts: 1068
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:32 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 141):
unless the A350 is a world beater (or the B787 is a complete FLOP) they'll never see the light of day

Your post is really difficult to understand as is most your posts but a simple google search will in fact reveal that Smisek likes the A350 very much and will be taking delivery. The 787 and the A350 can and will coexist in many fleets. The bulk of the UA fleet will definitely be the 777 and the 787 but the 350 will be the 744 replacement just like Smisek said it would. I do not see the additional capacity of a 77W, 380, or 748 needed at UA. The MAX is a great addition that makes sense at UA.
 
User avatar
anfromme
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:58 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:08 pm

Firstly - the actual thread subject: UA's reported inclination to buy MAX over NEO:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Therefore, this may very well be a case of availability. Airbus may not have the slots - especially A320neo slots - available in the number and timeframe that UA needs.

It does seem that Airbus has more slot constraints for NEO at this point than Boeing have for MAX.

Having said that - it sounds as if slots are not the only (possibly even not the major) factor playing in Boeing's favour here. According to Scott Hamilton at Leeham, price seems to be a major factor. According to Hamilton, "Boeing won Delta Air Lines on the 737-900ER v A321 competition largely on price, we understand–bidding 10% lower than Airbus. We also believe price is likely the determining factor in the soon-to-be-completed United Airlines deal, where Boeing is widely reported to now be the favorite." He also stated that Boeing appears to be more aggressive on price for single-aisles at this point. (Must I even say "here goes another a.net myth"?)
That said - slot availability is of course one factor that will come into play when the two manufacturers do their pricing calculations, so my above statement "it sounds as if slots are not the only (possibly even not the major) factor" isn't strictly true in that sense.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 35):
UA has both OEMs numbers. They can just tell Airbus what Boeing's offer is and Airbus can then beat it.

As gigneil already pointed out - UA would not (legally) be able to do this. I've seen RFP contracts (albeit not for airplanes) and every single one of them included strict non-disclosure agreements for all parties involved.
42
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3893
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:23 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 145):
(Must I even say "here goes another a.net myth"?)

Hush up. A-net myths should be kept alive and well. They are an endangered species. .

But you certainly have posted some interesting information. And if Boeing can afford to take less earnings on very sale, so be it. It is all part of the highly competitive landscape in civil aviation.  .
 
User avatar
anfromme
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:58 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:28 pm

Secondly - UA's A350 order.

There's one core thing I really don't understand about all of these scenarios being thrown about here about how UA is going to drop the A350 in favour of 787s or 777s or both: Have those that pitch these scenarios really not followed the original RFP?
UA ordered the A350 alongside the 787. So they knew perfectly well what they were ordering, as well as what missions they were ordering these airplanes for. So I really don't see how UA would now suddenly decide that their calculations were all wrong from the start and the 787 is able to fill all the desired missions after all. As for the 777 - it was part of exactly the same RFP, but was dismissed by UA at the time as "old technology" (source).
So how, exactly, is there suddenly "a pretty solid business case for an A350 cancellation" that didn't exist three years ago? And please don't say "CO management", which is a factor I don't believe for a second. Sounds like a typical a.net myth. AA ordered Airbus again, LH ordered Boeing again. This is not like me deciding to buy a bicycle or car based on its looks. If the numbers make sense I don't think that any airline nowadays can afford to go with a different airplane just because they'd really like to see a different manufacturer name printed on the safety cards.

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 144):
a simple google search will in fact reveal that Smisek likes the A350 very much and will be taking delivery.

Indeed. He repeatedly called the A350 and 787 spectacular airplanes and also pointed out that he sees very different roles for both of them.

Quoting nicoeddf (Reply 60):
Interesting. Every time we discuss an United order, people from certain parts of the world start running in circles like chicken in order to find ways to "get rid of the A350"...

True. Reminds me of how for a few years, every time a SIA order was discussed, people on a.net started coming up with all kinds of scenarios of how they were going to drop the A345s and buy 772LRs instead.

Quoting nicoeddf (Reply 139):
Why do you all really think that (possibly) ordering the 737MAX as outcome of a tender process for an excellent a/c is a direct implication of UA(+CO) cancelling an TOTALLY DIFFERENT A/C?

Full ack to your post - my guess regarding this particular question: Because a UA 737MAX order would finally see those short-haul Airbuses go, so the only offending birds still left with UA would be those A350s.
42
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3893
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 147):
If the numbers make sense I don't think that any airline nowadays can afford to go with a different airplane just because they'd really like to see a different manufacturer name printed on the safety cards.

Me neither, but the call on A-net for ditching the A350 is mostly driven out of a manufacturer-fan base then out of realism.

And since many leading airlines already have selected to go for the B787-A350 combination, is it more then likely that the new UA (including the CO management) will do the same. That might well evolve (at multiple airlines) into selecting the B787-A350 and B777-X trio, but that is another story. And way off-topic here.  .
 
brilondon
Posts: 3046
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:23 pm

Quoting rbgso (Reply 91):
As was mentioned upthread, another option, if they have no interest in the A350, is to take the frames and the penalty payments and sell the planes they next day to some other carrier, possibly at a profit. I suspect the contract may prevent that type of transaction, however.

Could UA transfer some of their delivery slots to other airlines? In other words sell their A350's to say US and take the penalties which would still be there, but they will not be on the hook for the orders and Airbus would still get the money for the aircraft.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos