cargolex
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 91):
I always thought CO operated the -100?
Quoting PM (Reply 92):
They perhaps did but they are not listed by Boeing as an original customer.

These -100s were inherited from PeoplExpress after it was bought by Continental.

I believe the only US airlines to fly the -100 were CO/People, AirCal/AA, and America West. There aren't many -100s so it's easy to keep track of them.

The only customers to receive new-build 737-100s were Lufthansa (22), MSA (Malaysia-Singapore Airlines) (5), and Avianca (2). The first frame, built as a 737-130, was never sold to a customer but was leased/opf to NASA and now lives at the museum of flight in Seattle.

All of the -100s except for that one have been scrapped now, with one possible exception. For a long time one of Faucett peru's 737-100s was stored at Lima, Peru, in horrible condition. With no photos on A.net since 2004, I think it may have been broken up by now, but it's possible it's still somewhere at LIM.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 85):
It was actually Lufthansa. If I remember correctly LH was looking for a replacement for their Vickers Viscount for domestic flights.

LH was the launch customer for the -100. UA was the launch customer for the -200.

Southwest and USAir were the launch customers for the -300.
 
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Polot
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 100):
I believe the only US airlines to fly the -100 were CO/People, AirCal/AA, and America West. There aren't many -100s so it's easy to keep track of them.

Air Florida also flew some, ex-SQ.
 
cargolex
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:26 pm

Yes, that's correct, Air Florida as well. All five of the Ex-MSA birds plus one ex-Avianca (1 month short term lease from AirCal). Good catch.
 
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:45 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 86):
Put another way, there may already be people who have spent their entire working lives from apprentice to retirement doing nothing but building 737s.

I knew a flutter engineer at Boeing Wichita who did flutter analysis on the B-52 on his first day of work out of college, and was doing it the last day before he retired.

Quoting columba (Reply 25):
I believe there will never be anything like this, again, no car, no airplane nothing will ever be in production that long as the 737.....

Cessna has been building the 172 Skyhawk since 1956, with virtually no changes other than avionics. They did not deliver any between 1987 and 1996. Over 48,000 172s have been built since 1955, and is still in production in Independence, KS.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 97):
How many airlines have such a split fleet?

In the past UA, DL, LH, and others. If it makes enough sense.


Right now Bombardier has to prove their concept. I do not expect many, if any, sales until the C-series has proven itself in service. If it delivers as promised, it will sell. The challenge is to prove promise is met.

And then stretch the C-series.   

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AirframeAS
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting voodoo (Reply 94):
America West flew the -100.

I thought they flew the -200 and not the -100. Did they ever have any -200's?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
For anyone here over the age 40, assuming another 30 to 40 years still to live, it seems like we're going to be flying on 737s for the rest of our lives.

Without question the most disheartening thread ever.

You are right, of course. Hopefully I won't have to retire off of it, though that would definitely increase my chances of opting for early retirement.
 
surface
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:37 pm

Hi,

I was reading some of the comments here on how beautiful the 737 is (especially the latest versions) and also someone commented how nice it would have been if they took some of the 787 design elements and incorporated them into a future 737.

I do a lot of 3D modeling of airplanes as it allows me to then observe them from different angles on the screen. Few months ago saw a 787 for the firs time and it was so incredibly slick and clean, it looked like a rendering even in real life. So I thought along the same lines as some of the posts here - what would it be to have very slick 737, in the typical say 738-739 proportions, with the iconic low stance and engines, but with the nose, wings and tail to be close copy of the 787....

Recently did some modeling and thought it is interesting to look at it. After reading here, thought maybe some of you would also enjoy to see this virtual concept. Here it is just in white:

Boeing 737-E rendering


Here with few decals to make it little bit more colorful:

Boeing 737-E JAL Rendering


Boeing 737-E JAL rear rendering


Cheers.

 
 
dfambro
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting surface (Reply 107):
Recently did some modeling and thought it is interesting to look at it.

Yes! That's a beautiful plane and exactly what my fantasy of what the MAX should have looked like.
Nice work!
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 75):
The famous PeoplExpress.



But, it seemed at least from the original deliveries (1968) it took at least a good 5 to 10 years before you really saw 737's in the skies. (At least from my perspective out of BWI.) The big carriers at that time Eastern and Allegheny did not fly them at least well into the 70's. Eastern never flew them.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting surface (Reply 107):

I see you kept the "smashed" engine inlet! That is awesome!   Thanks for sharing!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:57 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 97):
If there was a market for a more comfortable economy airlines would cater to it.

VX and B6 are both doing pretty well in the U.S. right now and they are based exactly around that business model. Some of us would gladly pay $10 extra to not be treated like dirt on flights.

I *WILL NOT* fly any of the "legacies" when one of these carriers offers service to my destination.
-Doc Lightning-

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planemaker
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 104):
In the past UA, DL, LH, and others. If it makes enough sense.

Yes, in the past. However, there are none now... and the 757 is increasingly being replaced with... another 737 (or A32X).

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 104):
Right now Bombardier has to prove their concept. I do not expect many, if any, sales until the C-series has proven itself in service. If it delivers as promised, it will sell. The challenge is to prove promise is met.

I believe that it is more than just proving their concept (I honestly don't think that anyone doesn't believe that the CSeries will live up to specs) as so many market factors enter into the purchase decision... many of which are out of BBD's control.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 104):
And then stretch the C-series.

In hindsight, BBD missed the 'sweet spot' of the market. Trending is +150-seat aircraft due to a variety of reasons... and that isn't going to change much.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 111):
VX and B6 are both doing pretty well in the U.S. right now and they are based exactly around that business model. Some of us would gladly pay $10 extra to not be treated like dirt on flights.

Yes, B6 is indeed doing pretty well (BTW, I have likened flying the E-jets economy as a "scaled downed" biz class due to the 18" seats and 4-abreast seating) and VX offers a very nice product... though it will be interesting to see how big VX can grow. WN offers 34" pitch on most of their seats. I really don't understand the "comfort complaint". There is only so much that can be done for a set pirce point. I am sure that if more people were preapared to pay for "E+", for example, that kind of seating would be more widespread.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
surface
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:39 pm

Glad some of you like it! Thought these are the right forums to share some of these. Hope this is not too much "off topic" in here.

Yes, kept the "smashed" engines as when I tried it with "normal" engines and there is nothing left that tells you this is a 737   but to add some more fanciness, made the back of the engine to look like the 787 engines and I just realized you can't see it well from those view posted above, so here is a side view with those details:

Boeing 737-E JAL side view rendering


Also the rear 3/4 from high up looks quite nice, spreading wings like a giant bird, here it is:

Boeing 737-E JAL rear 3/4 rendering


Cheers everyone!
 
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:09 am

Quoting surface (Reply 107):
Recently did some modeling and thought it is interesting to look at it.

That is terrific. Congratulations!
 
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:04 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 97):
It is simply because the majority of pax don't want to pay for more comfortable air travel. When airlines have tried to increase seat pitch, for example, pax wouldn't pay for it. If there was a market for a more comfortable economy airlines would cater to it.
Quoting planemaker (Reply 112):
I really don't understand the "comfort complaint". There is only so much that can be done for a set pirce point.

You claim that it's a matter of willingness to pay, I claim that it's a matter of ability to pay.

I don't think I'm alone when I say I was hoping our scientific and economic apparatus would achieve lower price points than we actually see. Really, wasn't the average person supposed to have personal flying cars in the driveway by now?   It's sour medicine to be instilled with those kind of expectations as a kid and then have to settle for being crammed into a 17.2" x 31" space.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:14 am

I love that others have noticed the "smashed engine" look. However, the 737-600's and newer have revised nacelles that at least from a front view look less "smashed." The 737-300 and 400's were the big offenders in ugly looking engines. Of course this was done due to the plane's low ground clearance.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:19 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 112):
Yes, B6 is indeed doing pretty well (BTW, I have likened flying the E-jets economy as a "scaled downed" biz class due to the 18" seats and 4-abreast seating) and VX offers a very nice product... though it will be interesting to see how big VX can grow. WN offers 34" pitch on most of their seats. I really don't understand the "comfort complaint". There is only so much that can be done for a set pirce point. I am sure that if more people were preapared to pay for "E+", for example, that kind of seating would be more widespread.

Honestly, I have rarely felt cramped in an airline seat on a flight shorter than 6 hours. The issue is boredom.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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citationjet
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:10 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 105):
I thought they flew the -200 and not the -100.

America West flew both the -100 and -200. Do a search on 737-100 and America West in the photo database.


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Photo © JetPix



They flew N701AW, 702AW, 703AW, 708AW, and 709AW.
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:20 pm

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 118):
America West flew both the -100

Ex-which airline?
 
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:42 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 119):
Ex-which airline?

A bunch of -130s that were ex-SQ and a handful of -112s that were ex-QH but originally delivered to SQ/ML (not sure which it was at that precise point in time, as it was around the MH/SQ split).
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Burkhard
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:20 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 7):
but the 737 is certainly the King.

I would say the worker...


Come on, todays 737 only loosely resemble the 737-100 - Boeing could have given them another name with as good reasons as they kept the magic 737.
 
airbazar
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:09 pm

Ah! I should be so lucky  
I fly out of BOS and 737's are definitelly not hugely common here. The last time I was on a 737 was well over a year ago when I flew WN out of MHT. I can't remember the last time I was on a 737 out of BOS. BOS's largest airlines operate predominantly A320's, regional jets, and 757s (B6, DL, US, UA).
 
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 109):
Eastern never flew them.

Neither did TWA.
Neither did Northwest.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 120):
A bunch of -130s that were ex-SQ

The -130s are ex-LH. I believe that only LH and SQ ordered the 100 variant, not many were built. The ex-LH 100s went to People Express.

It may be true that we will be flying 737s for the rest of our lives (till at least the mid 30s) but one thing is sure: I will always fondly remember the 727 for the rest of my life.

Ben Soriano
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 123):
The -130s are ex-LH. I believe that only LH and SQ ordered the 100 variant, not many were built. The ex-LH 100s went to People Express.

Correct - my error - ex-LH, and they came directly from LH. The -112s were ex-SQ or ex-ML but spent some time with QH in between. LH leased some of the -130s out, but they had their D- registrations up until HP acquired them.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
planemaker
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting B595 (Reply 115):
You claim that it's a matter of willingness to pay, I claim that it's a matter of ability to pay.

It isn't a matter of my claiming. Look at the success of FR... the largest inter-Europe carrier. Look at WN... the largest domestic carrier. AA cancelled MRTC, etc, etc. Look at how if an airline raises its fares by just even $5 that it quickly backs down if other carriers don't also increase their fares as well. Conversely, if one airline drops their fares... all do.

The facts are that flying is a commodity and the most people (DocLightning being one of the exceptions) don't care about having an extra 2" of legroom... if they have to pay for it... or being stuck in the middle seat... etc, etc, etc.

Quoting B595 (Reply 115):
I don't think I'm alone when I say I was hoping our scientific and economic apparatus would achieve lower price points than we actually see.

There is two points.

First, it is impossible to achieve even lower price points when fuel is very close to 40% of your costs... and there is nothing that can be done about it. When all the other 'fixed' costs are added it is still really amazing how cheap it is to fly.

Second, as pointed out, again and again people go for the lowest fare over comfort. People should be flocking to B6 & VX because they have the most comfortable fleets.

Quoting B595 (Reply 115):
Really, wasn't the average person supposed to have personal flying cars in the driveway by now?

Well... if you have a spare $200k you can next year.

Quoting B595 (Reply 115):
It's sour medicine to be instilled with those kind of expectations as a kid and then have to settle for being crammed into a 17.2" x 31" space.

Fly B6 or VX. The B6 E-jets are the most comfortable economy seats... 18.25" wide in 2+2 arrangement with 33" of pitch (Even More Space has 38").

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 117):
Honestly, I have rarely felt cramped in an airline seat on a flight shorter than 6 hours. The issue is boredom.

At 6'2" and stuck in a middle seat (17" width & 31" pitch & limited recline) with girth challenged pax on each side I have a few times even for short flights.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
airbazar
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:59 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 125):
It isn't a matter of my claiming. Look at the success of FR... the largest inter-Europe carrier. Look at WN... the largest domestic carrier. AA cancelled MRTC, etc, etc. Look at how if an airline raises its fares by just even $5 that it quickly backs down if other carriers don't also increase their fares as well. Conversely, if one airline drops their fares... all do.

The facts are that flying is a commodity and the most people (DocLightning being one of the exceptions) don't care about having an extra 2" of legroom... if they have to pay for it... or being stuck in the middle seat... etc, etc, etc.

I don't buy it and your own assesment is contradicting. WN is the largest domestic carrier and they have a larger pitch than most. FR doesn't fly 5 hour segments in Europe. 90% of their segments are around 2 hours so they can get away with a 30" pitch which is about what you'll find in the US on a transcon flight. Ouch!
So it's not that people aren't willing to pay for it. It's airlines that aren't providing that option. I fly UA and have yet to see an empty Y+ cabin on UA. Heck, on most flights you can't find an empty Y+ seat on UA. So the argument that people aren't willing to pay more is wrong IMO. It's the race for marketshare (and to the bottom), that is driving the tight seating, not what customers are willing to pay for.
 
planemaker
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 126):
WN is the largest domestic carrier and they have a larger pitch than most.

By only 1" typically and unless you have long legs it is not going to make any appreciable difference. On the other hand, most people would prefer not to have "cattle car" boarding and not have much choice of being stuck in the middle seat.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 126):
FR doesn't fly 5 hour segments in Europe. 90% of their segments are around 2 hours so they can get away with a 30" pitch which is about what you'll find in the US on a transcon flight.

Actually, the flight length breakdown is fairly similar between Europe and the US. WN's average flight length is 1 hr 55 min.

Min transcon pitch with the majors is at least 31" and often it is 32" depending upon aircraft.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 126):
So the argument that people aren't willing to pay more is wrong IMO. It's the race for marketshare (and to the bottom), that is driving the tight seating, not what customers are willing to pay for.

No it is not. If pax were willing to pay for more comfort every airline would be increasing comfort to generate more revenue. It is as simple as that. UA would be increasing the size of their Y+ cabin and other airlines would be adopting them... but they aren't.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting surface (Reply 113):

Why didn't you copyright your work, sir?? If Boeing adapts that model, you'll lose the rights to it.....

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 118):
America West flew both the -100 and -200.

When was the last -100 phased out at HP?

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 116):
I love that others have noticed the "smashed engine" look. However, the 737-600's and newer have revised nacelles that at least from a front view look less "smashed."

I LOVE the smashed engine inlet on all the models -300 thru -900ER.   
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
surface
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:54 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 128):
Why didn't you copyright your work, sir?? If Boeing adapts that model, you'll lose the rights to it.....

I just don't think there is anything to copyright. It is their 78 fuselage, wings, tail, combined with heir 73 "smashed" engines. Simply changed little bit the proportions so it all looks like made to be together but that is it. I highly doubt Boeing can not arrive to similar geometry/proportions on their own. As someone said here, a similar look/configuration would only make sense for a future successor/evolution of the 73. But it will be too funny if they put together something similar in the many years to come. Then we can all look back at this thread and smile - "as first seen way ahead of its time on airliners.net!"  

I just make these and then put them on a full wall projector at home, sit down with a glass on the opposite side of the room and it feels this thing is alive and flying.... like when you go to cinema and sit on the first row, ha! Can see only portion of the scene at a time, the rest is blurred and it feels you are "in"  
 
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting surface (Reply 129):
73 "smashed" engines

Sometimes referred to as the "hamster pouch" look..
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planemaker
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:16 pm

Quoting surface (Reply 129):
I highly doubt Boeing can not arrive to similar geometry/proportions on their own. As someone said here, a similar look/configuration would only make sense for a future successor/evolution of the 73.

I've been highlighting some of the NASA N+3 studies in this thread and your post reminded me of Northrop's design submission for a ~2030 airliner (737 replacement)...

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:22 pm

Quoting surface (Reply 129):

Well, okay. I like what you did. You could of done it in AS colors! :-P

Quoting planemaker (Reply 131):

That looks more like an Airbus design than Northrop. The tail and engines gives it away. LOL!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
planemaker
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 132):
That looks more like an Airbus design than Northrop. The tail and engines gives it away. LOL!

Take a look at what Northrop was evaluating before they decided on that final configuration...


Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
airbazar
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 127):
No it is not. If pax were willing to pay for more comfort every airline would be increasing comfort to generate more revenue. It is as simple as that. UA would be increasing the size of their Y+ cabin and other airlines would be adopting them... but they aren't.

But they are. United is extending Y+ to CO. Delta introduced Economy Comfort last year and AA is introducing "main cabin extra" next year.
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...american-airlines-offers-more.html

Quoting planemaker (Reply 127):
By only 1" typically and unless you have long legs it is not going to make any appreciable difference. On the other hand, most people would prefer not to have "cattle car" boarding and not have much choice of being stuck in the middle seat.

But 1-2" is what started this discussion in the first place. You pointed out that FR's 1" less than the average is an indication that people aren't willing to pay for space. But you dismiss the opposite as a fact. Interesting.
 
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 112):
However, there are none now...

??? If one considers the E-jets, there are plenty. We just now have an aircraft worth splitting a fleet prior to the C-series. But look at the SSJ. Customers waited to see if all promises were met and they weren't. (e.g., engine TSFC miss).

Quoting planemaker (Reply 112):
I honestly don't think that anyone doesn't believe that the CSeries will live up to specs

Anyone with a billion dollars to spend on them is going to have a healthy skepticism. This is the time in a market when airlines freeze their orders and wait to see promises delivered. Most aircraft at EIS have 'teething issues.' Look at the 737-100 or the A320-100. Neither had spotless EIS but both went on to sell extremely well. Or more directly the Q400. I could name more (741, 757 w/Pratts, A300 had its issues, CR700, E190, etc.)

Its not just fuel burn. Dispatch reliability will matter as much. Not to mention maintenance costs. I haven't ever seen a customer believe anyone will fully deliver.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 112):
Trending is +150-seat aircraft due to a variety of reasons... and that isn't going to change much.

There hasn't been a competitive offering in the size range since the MD-80 and that was competitive in a low fuel price area. If the CS300 delivers a 15% lower cost per flight than the 73G/A319 there will definitively be an economic benefit to a split fleet.

Either Embraer or Bombardier had the opportunity. Bombardier too the risk.
System testing is starting on the C-series:
http://skiesmag.com/news/articles/16...simulations-underway-for-bomb.html

No doubt the 737 will sell circles around the C-series. So will the A320NEO. It will be interesting to see how C-series orders are by the 2nd year of production.

Lightsaber
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surface
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:49 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 132):
Well, okay. I like what you did. You could of done it in AS colors! :-P


AS k and you shall receive:

 
737-E AS rendering


737-E AS rendering


Hey, planemaker, here is also our entry to the contest! It would not matter, but she looks good in the same sky!

737-E AS rendering in sky
 
dfambro
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:51 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 134):
But they are. United is extending Y+ to CO. Delta introduced Economy Comfort last year and AA is introducing "main cabin extra" next year.


Yes, but for years and years it was United only. I don't really count CO trying to sell exit rows as a special extra space seats. and things like that.
 
planemaker
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 134):
But they are. United is extending Y+ to CO. Delta introduced Economy Comfort last year and AA is introducing "main cabin extra" next year.

First, let's be clear... I didn't say everyone (I even noted DocLightening as one who would pay more)... I said the majority - and the facts bear that out.

Second, put the extra (variable) legroom that they are offering into context:

Very few, if any of the pax, actually end up paying for the seats... as AA says, AAdvantage Gold members will get those seats at no extra cost through the end of 2013. Its AAdvantage Platinum and Executive Platinum members and full-fare passengers will get it for free. And DL, if you purchased a full-fare Economy class ticket, you’ll get complimentary access to the new seats... and FREE for Diamond/ Platinum/ Gold Medallion, and Y, B & M fares.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:59 pm

I did a rough calculation and figured that if the 797 or i737 or whatever it will be called EIS in 2025 and the final frame is built that year, then - assuming it has a 25 year operational life - it will be retired in 2050. At that point I will be 60. BUT the 737 had been built for over 20 years before I was born. Quite remarkable really!

Quoting columba (Reply 25):
The 737 will be the most succesful passenger aircraft ever, being in production for at least another 20 years. I believe there will never be anything like this, again, no car, no airplane nothing will ever be in production that long as the 737.....

The only comparable piece of machinery which I can think of off the top of my head is the Volkswagen Golf. It has been in production since time immemorial and will continue to be built long into the future.

Each new model is an evolution of the one which came before, meaning that if you line up pictures of each model in chronological order you can actually see the progression over time whereas if you put a 1975 build next to a 2010 then obviously you wouldn't think it was the same car.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 91):
I always thought CO operated the -100?

Aah, so I'm not going mad! I was sure I flew a CO 731 in 1998 EWR-CHS but in the end I decided it must have been a 200 since I couldn't find any information about CO ever operating the 100.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 111):
VX and B6 are both doing pretty well in the U.S. right now and they are based exactly around that business model. Some of us would gladly pay $10 extra to not be treated like dirt on flights.

The irony of the stuffed up industry we see today!
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:00 pm

Quoting surface (Reply 136):

That is amazing! I wished I could order a framed print!  
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
planemaker
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 135):
??? If one considers the E-jets, there are plenty. We just now have an aircraft worth splitting a fleet prior to the C-series.

Not plenty... only a few. Furthermore, as in AC's situation, the 100-seater was combined with the 70-seater... which I have pointed out is EMB's strength in defending (or attacking) the CSeries from the low end. EMB has a 4-member family from 70-110 seats that allow airlines to mix and match.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 135):
Anyone with a billion dollars to spend on them is going to have a healthy skepticism. This is the time in a market when airlines freeze their orders and wait to see promises delivered. Most aircraft at EIS have 'teething issues.

Don't misunderstand me... I am in no way hinting that the CSeries EIS will be trouble free. I have posted quite a bit about BBD's EIS problems - not only on the Q400 and CRJ1000 but also the CRJ700 & CRJ900. The point I was making is that the CSeries will (eventually) meet spec. But unlike the NEO and MAX - which will also have their "teething issues", there isn't a line up to buy the CSeries... because the issues, as I have previously discussed on various threads, are much more than just about "0-60 & MPG" performance.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 135):
If the CS300 delivers a 15% lower cost per flight than the 73G/A319 there will definitively be an economic benefit to a split fleet.

Forget about the 73G & A319... it is up against the MAX and NEO. As I pointed out in my previous response, there are many, many issues beyond "0-60 & MPG". You might enjoy reading this article which explores some of the issues...

Quote:
Many years ago when still at the helm of Embraer, Maurício Botelho was asked about his appetite to go head to head with the industry's "big two" in the mainline jet sector. "Occasionally I come up against Airbus and Boeing today in campaigns with the E-Jet," he said. "And when I do, I start to miss my old foe Bombardier."

Botelho's point was simple: when "playing with the big boys", the ferocity of competition goes up by an order of magnitude to a point where the pressure can lead to burst blood vessels. And the events of the past 12 months have clearly illustrated that when Airbus and Boeing enter the fray, prisoners aren't taken alive.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-the-old-order-fights-back-369921/

Quoting surface (Reply 136):


Hey, planemaker, here is also our entry to the contest! It would not matter, but she looks good in the same sky!

Really, very nice renderings!!!
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Viscount724
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:30 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 123):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 120):
A bunch of -130s that were ex-SQ

The -130s are ex-LH. I believe that only LH and SQ ordered the 100 variant, not many were built. The ex-LH 100s went to People Express.

SQ didn't exist when the 731s were ordered. The 5 731s were ordered by MSA (Malaysia-Singapore Airlines) in 1967, 5 years before MSA was split into MH and SQ in 1972. I believe all 5 731s went to Air Florida after SQ disposed of them.

Avianca was the other original 731 customer. They ordered 2.
 
cargolex
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:30 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 139):
The only comparable piece of machinery which I can think of off the top of my head is the Volkswagen Golf. It has been in production since time immemorial and will continue to be built long into the future.

Each new model is an evolution of the one which came before, meaning that if you line up pictures of each model in chronological order you can actually see the progression over time whereas if you put a 1975 build next to a 2010 then obviously you wouldn't think it was the same car.

I don't think that's really comparable, as the golf has been completely redesigned, tires to top, several times. Some generations borrow bits from the previous one (particularly the current Golf) but there's zero relationship between the Mk1/Mk2 Golfs and the Golf you can buy today in mechanical terms other than that they have four wheels and and an engine and a golf name on the boot.

They looks similar in concept, but in fact, are basically unrelated after a generation or two. They redesign the entire unibody, the engines might carry over from one to the next but rarely through more than two generations.

You can buy the Golf 1 in South Africa, but in analogous terms, you can't buy a new-build 737-200 anywhere.

A more apt analogy would be the Morgan four-wheeler. Basically it's pretty similar in concept to what it's always been, but there's not that much relation between the modern Morgan Aero 8 and the 1936 Morgan 4-4 other than the shape (and even then, it's pushing it).

The longest lived automobiles - VW Beetle, Citroen 2CV, Renault R4, Mercedes G-wagen, they didn't evolve as much in design as the 737 has from the 731 to the 737-900ER, and that's because to evolve to that extent in a car, you just redesign it - but that's a much more difficult proposition with an airplane, and much, much more costly.
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:28 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 127):
By only 1" typically and unless you have long legs it is not going to make any appreciable difference. On the other hand, most people would prefer not to have "cattle car" boarding and not have much choice of being stuck in the middle seat.

Typically an airline charges 50-100% more for 10-=25% more realestate. My suspician is that they don't want economy to be comfortable and take away from business and first class. I will always be willing to pay 20% more for 10% more space on a plane. SW and JetBlue are the only airlines offering it where I occasionally fly.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
planemaker
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:48 am

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 144):
Typically an airline charges 50-100% more for 10-=25% more realestate. My suspician is that they don't want economy to be comfortable and take away from business and first class. I will always be willing to pay 20% more for 10% more space on a plane.

There really isn't a "typical"... just look at all the variable fare buckets in economy where airlines charge not just 100% more but several times more from the lowest Y fare to full Y fare for the exact same real estate.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:35 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 141):
which I have pointed out is EMB's strength in defending (or attacking) the CSeries from the low end. EMB has a 4-member family from 70-110 seats that allow airlines to mix and match.

EMB has done an excellent job with their family. There is still an opportunity for Bombardier.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 141):
I have posted quite a bit about BBD's EIS problems - not only on the Q400 and CRJ1000 but also the CRJ700 & CRJ900.

   Which I believe they must prove before sales increase. But with the NEO and I would bet soon MAX backlogs, there will be sales campaigns Bombardier will win.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 141):
there isn't a line up to buy the CSeries... because the issues, as I have previously discussed on various threads, are much more than just about "0-60 & MPG" performance.

Agreed. For example GE/Boeing will be able to provide much better 'commercial terms' than Bombardier. It is about more than MPG performance in the short run. In the long run, the base airframe economics are very important.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 141):
Forget about the 73G & A319... it is up against the MAX and NEO.

Eventually we shall. But the MAX/NEO will only provide cost per flight numbers about 5% to 7% less than their OEO options. While you note the MPG numbers don't always sell, if Bombardier delivers we will see a LCC go with the type and take care of the cost advantage to 'buy' market share.

Lightsaber
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B595
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:07 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 125):
First, it is impossible to achieve even lower price points when fuel is very close to 40% of your costs... and there is nothing that can be done about it.

At least we agree on the root-cause of the problem. We as a civilization have failed thus far to develop a suitable alternative to scarce fossil fuel.

The market failures you cite don't necessarily lead to the conclusion that people are unwilling to pay; These failures could happen either 1) because of unwillingness to pay, or 2) inability to pay.

What is a representative difference between a business class fare and an economy class fare? If we assume it's $500, and that the average flyer takes 10 trips a year, then he would have to fork out $5000 more disposable income to upgrade to business over the course of the year. I don't think the average flyer has an extra $5000 of unallocated disposable income laying around. Hence he simply can't buy the upgrade. It's not a matter of him having the money and being unwilling to pay; Rather, he doesn't have the money, period. The price point is too high, because of our failure to crack the fossil-fuel problem.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 125):
Well... if you have a spare $200k you can next year.

I don't think the -average- person has a spare $200k. Maybe in 20 years the price level will be low enough for the average person to have one. But that will still be 50 years later than I was promised as a kid  .
 
planemaker
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:12 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 146):
EMB has done an excellent job with their family. There is still an opportunity for Bombardier.

There is an opportunity...but how big is it. Conceptually, as many people assert, there is but when one drills down to look at actual opportunities there are not too many.

Marketing wise, BBD has been all over the map. When the NCA was first announced and then "re-announced" (as the CSeries) it was marketed as the F100, DC-9, AVRO, MD80, 737 Classic replacement. That opportunity has largely evaporated. Then BBD said that leasing companies were the target market. Since that has failed to materialize they are now onto the 'mile wide, inch deep' sales approach.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 146):
Which I believe they must prove before sales increase. But with the NEO and I would bet soon MAX backlogs, there will be sales campaigns Bombardier will win.

But you run up against bad timing... and that is just one of the issues that isn't discussed in the article. As you say, BBD has to prove the CSeries 'works' after EIS for a period of time. Depending upon actual EIS and "teething", we are looking at anywhere from 2015 (if all goes well) to possibly 2016 or perhaps 2017 if things don't go so well.

So... what sales campaigns can BBD win with that timeline? By then how many more 737NGs & MAXs and A32Xs & NEOs... and E190 & 195s will have been delivered and/or ordered?

Moreover, with NEO's and then MAX's starting to EIS at the end of that time frame, NG's and OEO's that are coming off lease will be very attractively priced.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 146):
Agreed. For example GE/Boeing will be able to provide much better 'commercial terms' than Bombardier. It is about more than MPG performance in the short run. In the long run, the base airframe economics are very important.

Look at the deal that Airbus & GE pulled off with Republic. Not to mention that GE on its own (and through GECAS) will be headhunting to limit GTF penetration. As the article says, they take no prisoners alive. The 'majors' can bundle a deal (including WBs into the mix) that coupled with fleet commonality benefits would make any marginal airframe economics advantage inconsequential.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 146):
Eventually we shall. But the MAX/NEO will only provide cost per flight numbers about 5% to 7% less than their OEO options. While you note the MPG numbers don't always sell, if Bombardier delivers we will see a LCC go with the type and take care of the cost advantage to 'buy' market share.

First, as mentioned earlier, the sweet spot is +150-seat. So, why are airlines going to buy a stub fleet of CS300s when they already have all A or B NB's?

Second, virtually all LCC's either have or are moving to +150-seat aircraft. Again, conceptually it sounds good what you propose but when you look at any of the LCC's there aren't really any candidates.

Quoting B595 (Reply 147):
At least we agree on the root-cause of the problem. We as a civilization have failed thus far to develop a suitable alternative to scarce fossil fuel.

With natural gas prices being so incredibly low, Boeing just released an update to their NASA N+3 study and have come up with a "N+4" Sugar "FREEZE" concept which uses LPG stored in a forward and rear fuse tanks. EIS would be around 2040. Now that would take care of the fuel pricing issue!!

Quoting B595 (Reply 147):
What is a representative difference between a business class fare and an economy class fare?

But we don't even have to talk about F vs Y fares. When fuel costs were significantly lower AA's MRTC failed because not enough people were even prepared to pay the marginal cost difference.

Quoting B595 (Reply 147):
It's not a matter of him having the money and being unwilling to pay; Rather, he doesn't have the money, period.

Again, it has been proven that not enough people are prepared to pay for the extra comfort.

Quoting B595 (Reply 147):
I don't think the -average- person has a spare $200k.

I agree... and I said that in jest. I think that the market for the Terrafugia is exceedingly small and is more of a novelty item (like those cars that turn into a boats).
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
airbazar
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RE: Most Of Us Will Be Flying 737s Rest Of Our Lives

Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:28 am

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 144):
Typically an airline charges 50-100% more for 10-=25% more realestate. My suspician is that they don't want economy to be comfortable and take away from business and first class. I will always be willing to pay 20% more for 10% more space on a plane. SW and JetBlue are the only airlines offering it where I occasionally fly.

Now you're limiting yourself to the US only   In Europe for example, a "domestic" J seat is no more comfortable or has any more leg room than a Y seat. Again, the reason they can get away with it is because the typical flight segment over is much shorter than it is here.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 145):
There really isn't a "typical"... just look at all the variable fare buckets in economy where airlines charge not just 100% more but several times more from the lowest Y fare to full Y fare for the exact same real estate.

I agree with you here. That proves that there are plenty of passnegers willing to pay more than the lowest possible fare, considering the high LF that airlines are experiencing. I still content that the race for market share is what drives the cramped seating in Y, and not passengers' willingness to pay an extra few bucks.
Where I fly from (BOS and MHT), WN is never the lowest fare option. Never. Logically, they don't charge for bags and offer more leg room, even if it's just 1". And they are usually the most profitable airline around. So what does that tell you? To me it tells me that if marketed and packaged correctly, a better product can actually bring you greater profits.

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