AF A320 With 189 Seats?

dc9northwest · Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:31 pm

I was reading a Romanian forum post regarding AF's domestic configuration in their A320s... The poster says he travelled in an A320 configured with over 180 seats (in the 185-189 range), on a domestic AF flight.

I thought that the maximum configuration of an A320 was 180 seats. Now, knowing AF's 777s with the dreaded 3-4-3 config, I have no doubt AF would try to fit in 189 seats if they could. However, this leaves me with a few questions:

1) Has anyone travelled on an AF A320 with over 180 seats? Any other airline... maybe easyjet?
2) Am I right in that the max passenger capacity is 180?
3) If I'm right, and if this configuration does indeed exist... how come? Would it not be a safety risk during an evacuation?
4) Why do neither AF nor seatguru websites show this configuration?

I don't know what to think. That's why I'm posting this here; maybe someone has certain information on this topic.

packcheer · Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:46 pm

stab in the dark... maybe something was lost in translation? 180 passengers and 9 crew?

CXfirst · Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):
4) Why do neither AF nor seatguru websites show this configuration?

Seatguru shows this one with 184 seats in the domestic AF A320's.

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air...rance_Airbus_A320_Metropole_V1.php

-CXfirst

[Edited 2012-04-24 09:10:14]

dc9northwest · Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 2):

That's simply miscounted by seatguru. If you notice there's no row 13, then that's 29*6-3+7=178 seats. They counted an extra row which doesn't exist...

Quoting Packcheer (Reply 1):
stab in the dark... maybe something was lost in translation? 180 passengers and 9 crew?

Sorry, no... The discussion was about seats, not passengers.

UALWN · Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):

Easyjet's A320s carry 183 pax, so it must be legal (at least in Europe).

Crosswind · Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:16 pm

The A320 is exit-limited to 180 passenger seats maximum, the maximum number that can be fitted... easyJet A320s (and many other airlines') have 180 seats.

Regards
CROSSWIND

BasilFawlty · Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 4):
Easyjet's A320s carry 183 pax, so it must be legal (at least in Europe).

No they don't, they carry 180 pax. The A320 is certified with a maximum of 180 seats, so all stories and websites showing more seats then 180 are rubbish.

dc9northwest · Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:10 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 6):
No they don't, they carry 180 pax. The A320 is certified with a maximum of 180 seats, so all stories and websites showing more seats then 180 are rubbish.

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 5):
The A320 is exit-limited to 180 passenger seats maximum, the maximum number that can be fitted... easyJet A320s (and many other airlines') have 180 seats.

Thanks a lot, guys... That's what I thought.

airproxx · Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):

I don't know what to think. That's why I'm posting this here; maybe someone has certain information on this topic.

AF max seats configuration on domestic A320 is 178 seats.

Dave

CRJ900 · Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:17 pm

How come the A320 can only carry 180 pax when the B737-800 can have 189 pax with the same number of exits? Four main doors and four overwing exits...

The Airbus main doors look slighty larger than the Boeing doors too.

airproxx · Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
How come the A320 can only carry 180 pax when the B737-800 can have 189 pax with the same number of exits? Four main doors and four overwing exits...

Call Ziegler @ Airbus and EASA

nws2002 · Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
How come the A320 can only carry 180 pax when the B737-800 can have 189 pax with the same number of exits? Four main doors and four overwing exits...

The Airbus main doors look slighty larger than the Boeing doors too.

I don't know the answer, but could it have something to do with the hinged window exits that swing upward and out of the way?

Viscount724 · Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
How come the A320 can only carry 180 pax when the B737-800 can have 189 pax with the same number of exits? Four main doors and four overwing exits...

Just a guess but it might be related to the 737NG's emergency exits which are hinged at the top and should open more quickly than the old-style exits on the A320 that have to be physically removed and thrown out of the aircraft. Could mean a few seconds difference that may affect the number of passengers that can evacuate the aircraft in 90 seconds with only half the exits available and in darkness. I think that's the evacuation requirement that must be demonstrated prior to certification.

AADC10 · Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
How come the A320 can only carry 180 pax when the B737-800 can have 189 pax with the same number of exits?

Airbus probably only did an evacuation test for 180 because they did not believe back when it was certified that airlines would cram in more seats than that. They might be able to re-certify for additional passengers, but why encourage that kind of thing?

FlySSC · Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:57 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):
The poster says he travelled in an A320 configured with over 180 seats (in the 185-189 range), on a domestic AF flight.

Imposible.

The A320 is certified for 180 seats. NO airline anywhere in the world can have more than 180 seats in an A320.

Air France's A320 used on the domestic network have 178 seats, the A320 used for European flights have 165 seats.

mickey90 · Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:59 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
How come the A320 can only carry 180 pax when the B737-800 can have 189 pax with the same number of exits? Four main doors and four overwing exits...

The Airbus main doors look slighty larger than the Boeing doors too.

I guess it's because the 738 is a bit longer than the a320. The 739 has the same number of exit doors as the 738 but is limited to just 189 pax due to this, but the 739ER has a pair of extra exit doors and is certified for 215 passengers.

airportugal310 · Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 13):
They might be able to re-certify for additional passengers, but why encourage that kind of thing?

lol good point!

I guess we have it good with jetBlue at 150 seats...makes for a nice comfy ride

Viscount724 · Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 14):
Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):
The poster says he travelled in an A320 configured with over 180 seats (in the 185-189 range), on a domestic AF flight.

Imposible.

The A320 is certified for 180 seats. NO airline anywhere in the world can have more than 180 seats in an A320.

Air France's A320 used on the domestic network have 178 seats, the A320 used for European flights have 165 seats.

And, even if the A320 was certified for more than 180 seats, is there room to add more seats? Airbus shows the 180-seat configuration at 28/29 inch pitch which is already extremely tight. To add even one more row of seats would mean reducing pitch by at least one inch. Many people can barefly fit in 30 or 31 inch pitch seats. How would they possibly fit at 27 inches? Any other changes to add more seats would mean eliminating the rear lavatories or making other major design changes.

UALWN · Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 6):
The A320 is certified with a maximum of 180 seats, so all stories and websites showing more seats then 180 are rubbish.

So then the seatguru entry on Easyjet is just plain wrong, since it shows 183 seats on their A320s.

CXfirst · Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:27 am

Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):
The poster says he travelled in an A320 configured with over 180 seats (in the 185-189 range), on a domestic AF flight.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 2):
Seatguru shows this one with 184 seats in the domestic AF A320's.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 3):
That's simply miscounted by seatguru. If you notice there's no row 13, then that's 29*6-3+7=178 seats. They counted an extra row which doesn't exist...

That's probably why that Forum poster sayshe travelled in an A320 with more than 180 seats. I bet he didn't manually count all the seats, but rather looked at seatguru and took their number as the actual number.

-CXfirst

bucchinij · Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:03 am

From the FAA's Type Certificate Data Sheet:

Type A320-100/200 Series Transport Category Airplanes

Maximum Passengers:
179

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...064e941/$FILE/A28NM%20Rev%2011.pdf

dc9northwest · Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:10 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 18):
So then the seatguru entry on Easyjet is just plain wrong, since it shows 183 seats on their A320s.

Yes it is, as seatguru often is, unfortunately....

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 16):
I guess we have it good with jetBlue at 150 seats...makes for a nice comfy ride

I'll see in early June. I'm looking forward to it... hopefully all the hype won't kill the experience

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 14):
Imposible.

The A320 is certified for 180 seats. NO airline anywhere in the world can have more than 180 seats in an A320.

Air France's A320 used on the domestic network have 178 seats, the A320 used for European flights have 165 seats.

Thank you very much, sir.

Yes, indeed, I've pointed him to the official AF site, which clearly shows the 178-seat configuration... He insists there was a row 13 (which I've never seen on AF, and I've travelled reasonably often on their Airbus fleet...

Quoting bucchinij (Reply 20):
From the FAA's Type Certificate Data Sheet:

Type A320-100/200 Series Transport Category Airplanes

Maximum Passengers:
179

Indeed. I heard it was initially 179, then extended to 180 passengers.

Well, thanks to everyone who contributed. I thought it was very unlikely there existed a configuration of over 180 seats, but I hate being wrong and thought I'd ask here as well.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 19):
That's probably why that Forum poster sayshe travelled in an A320 with more than 180 seats. I bet he didn't manually count all the seats, but rather looked at seatguru and took their number as the actual number.

That is indeed a fair point

LimaFoxTango · Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:19 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 16):

I guess we have it good with jetBlue at 150 seats...makes for a nice comfy ride

Very! Makes you wonder why one would pay for an Even More Space seat. I was very impressed with the legroom the normal seats have.

GSTBA · Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting airproxx (Reply 8):
F max seats configuration on domestic A320 is 178 seats.

That is alot of pax on a non low cost airline A320. Especially when you look at there european rivals

AY's A320's have a max seat configuration of 159 seats
AZ's A320's have a max seat configuration of 165 seats
BA's A320's have a max seat configuration of 162 seats
LH's A320's have a max seat configuration of 168 seats
TP's A320's have a max seat configuration of 162 seats

AF's A318's also by the looks of things like to cram it's passengers into a A318 which can have a max single class seat configuration 131Y. That's only 1 less seat than BA have on there A319's

F9's A318;s have a max seat configuration of 120 seats
RO's A318;s have a max seat configuration of 113 seats

airportugal310 · Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:59 am

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 22):
Very! Makes you wonder why one would pay for an Even More Space seat. I was very impressed with the legroom the normal seats have.

I often wonder the same thing...the security motive they advertise is hardly worth it (I rarely spend any time waiting to get though...granted I fly early AM and late PM...in fact on a flight tomorrow leaving early...wont have an issue)

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 21):
I'll see in early June. I'm looking forward to it... hopefully all the hype won't kill the experience

I don't think so

They became my #1 domestic airline for a reason...comfort, the Dtv, mostly happy crew....it really is the small stupid stuff.

FlySSC · Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:38 am

Seat Capacity of Air France A320 family aircraft :

A318 : 131 seats
A319 : 138 seats (Europe) - 142 (Domestic)
A320 : 165 seats (Europe) - 178 (Domestic)
A321 : 200 seats (Europe) - 212 (Domestic)

GT4EZY · Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:02 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 18):
So then the seatguru entry on Easyjet is just plain wrong, since it shows 183 seats on their A320s.

It must be. Easyjet A320's carry 180 pax max.

YULWinterSkies · Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:12 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):
3) If I'm right, and if this configuration does indeed exist... how come? Would it not be a safety risk during an evacuation?

No airline will EVER be allowed to have one single more seat that the max certified number. Even FR does abide.

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 23):
That is alot of pax on a non low cost airline A320. Especially when you look at there european rivals

AY's A320's have a max seat configuration of 159 seats
AZ's A320's have a max seat configuration of 165 seats
BA's A320's have a max seat configuration of 162 seats
LH's A320's have a max seat configuration of 168 seats
TP's A320's have a max seat configuration of 162 seats

To know is that AF has no true business class seats on their A320s. Rather, they block the middle seats of the front rows. It allows the flexibility of doing all-Y domestic runs and some European flights with business class with the same aircraft. Although it is indeed not a true business class. For the cattle class, however, they are just exactly the same as all others within one inch.

TZTriStar500 · Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:26 am

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 21):
Indeed. I heard it was initially 179, then extended to 180 passengers.

Maybe for EASA, but the FAA TCDS limit is and remains at 179. This is one of the oddities of the A320 between FAA and EASA certification.

Burkhard · Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:19 am

I remember there was some program currently to allow 3 more seats on each of the A320 family members by reshuffling what is behind them - anybody remembers more or knows if this will eventually lead to a future 183 max pax number?

Pihero · Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:35 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 27):
To know is that AF has no true business class seats on their A320s. Rather, they block the middle seats of the front rows. It allows the flexibility of doing all-Y domestic runs and some European flights with business class with the same aircraft. Although it is indeed not a true business class. For the cattle class, however, they are just exactly the same as all others within one inch.

Not quite :
1/- The middle seat folds forward, making a surface - and a small table - between the two seats.
2/- The arm rests are unlocked to be pulled sideways to increase the width of the seat
3/- The seat back is unlocked to allow a much increased reclining angle
4/- The seat blocks are moved for a greater leg room

The result is that a cabin can be tailored - very quickly - to the clientele of each flight.

The max certified seating capacity has nothing to do with the physical dimensions of the cabin, or the number and type of the exits (I and III), but with the initial bid of the OEM.

For the curious, this is a pre-380-and-787 table of the FAA certs :
FAA max seating

[Edited 2012-04-26 01:51:15]

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