Delta Suspends New York JFK - Rome

miaami · Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:01 pm

According the GDS display DL will suspend JFK-FCO on OCT 27. Seems as though DL is cutting back on alot of Trans Atlantic routes. Will the service return in 2013?

FoxBravo · Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:12 pm

They continue to codeshare and revenue share on Alitalia's flights so this isn't really a big deal.

gen2stew · Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:12 pm

My goodness, this will get the pot stirred... On one side you'll have the Delta dart board group and on the other you'll have the this is why AA is so conservative's...

connies4ever · Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:14 pm

I don't really think so. FCO is primarily a tourist and VFR destination, not a lot of premium traffic. AC runs it as a seasonal service out of YYZ.

MXP, though, that's where the business is.

cokepopper · Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:16 pm

I don't believe we flew this last winter. (3months)

PSU.DTW.SCE · Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:20 pm

This is the same as this past winter. DL and AA both seasonally suspended JFK-FCO.

DL is going to continue doing on an ongoing basis. They will not tolerate flying a lot of unprofitable capacity across the Atlantic during the slow season like they did in winter 2010-2011.

catiii · Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:22 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 3):
MXP, though, that's where the business is.

Which they're suspending out of ATL...

hiflyer · Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:44 pm

and UA suspended FCO out of EWR as well for the winter didn't they?

panamair · Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 4):
I don't believe we flew this last winter

Yes, DL-operated JFK-FCO was dropped this past winter as well, and recently returned (on 3/24). The AZ-operated JFK-FCO as part of the JV will continue to operate.

JFK-MXP will continue this winter, like last, with the 764, and JFK-VCE will operate at 4-5x weekly on the 763ER during the winter...same schedules as this past winter.

Basically, DL did decently with the winter drawdown in Transatlantic capacity this past winter, so they will essentially continue with the same schedules.

JFK-NCE will also be suspended from January 9 2013 and return in late March, etc.

Mir · Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 3):
MXP, though, that's where the business is.

And yet they cut ATL-MXP. Curious....

-Mir

Flighty · Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:54 pm

The Itailian business market is in the crapper. It is mainly tourism market, most profitably served as such.

LIPZ · Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting miaami (Thread starter):
According the GDS display DL will suspend JFK-FCO on OCT 27

Nothing new, the same was during W11/12.

In addition ATH-JFK will be suspended as well.

OA412 · Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting LIPZ (Reply 13):
In addition ATH-JFK will be suspended as well.

Wow. That means that for the first time in several decades, there will be no nonstop US-ATH service this winter.

OOer · Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:21 pm

UA suspended the EWR-FCO flight for the winter...and DL still can't make a JFK-FCO (4x or 5x weekly) work?

usairways85 · Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 15):
UA suspended the EWR-FCO flight for the winter...and DL still can't make a JFK-FCO (4x or 5x weekly) work?

Really intersting that both DL/UA have suspended NYC-FCO for the winter, huge decrease in capacity.

BMI727 · Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):
The Itailian business market is in the crapper. It is mainly tourism market, most profitably served as such.

Especially Rome. Although it's miserable in the summer.

Basically this is what happens when the economy sucks. Business travel hurts and tourist travel hurts worse since vacation is one of the first things to go when times are bad. I have to wonder how the Italians get in such a poor financial position seeing as they don't seem to spend much money maintaining things.

peanuts · Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:51 pm

I hope it is clear to most level minded folks that vast parts of the global economy are still in dire straits...some parts still haven't even seen the worst of it, during this particular cycle.

I'm glad this carrier isn't just flying for the sake of flying. Let's study and re-evaluate each and every route. Less than daily is less desirable but it's not always a bad thing.

Most of "this" stems from the price of oil though.

The percentage of fuel as a part of total cost for airlines is just way out of whack these days.

[Edited 2012-04-27 10:59:38]

jetlanta · Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:59 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 15):
UA suspended the EWR-FCO flight for the winter...and DL still can't make a JFK-FCO (4x or 5x weekly) work?

They can. It will just be on Alitialia equipment. They've got better things to do with the airplanes in winter, like maintenance and mods. And I'm not being sarcastic.

connies4ever · Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:43 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 7):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 3):
MXP, though, that's where the business is.

Which they're suspending out of ATL...

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 3):
MXP, though, that's where the business is.

And yet they cut ATL-MXP. Curious....

Yes, I saw that thread. Perhaps the ATL-MXP market isn't all that strong (is Atlanta a fashion centre, for example). But then again perhaps this reflects the generally terrible state of the Italian economy more than anything.

PHX787 · Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:31 pm

Seeing the other thread about ATL cutting Milan, How much Italian service is left for DL?

pnd100 · Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 21):

Seeing the other thread about ATL cutting Milan, How much Italian service is left for DL?

According to their interactive route map on the website they have service to VCE & seasonal service to PSA after FCO / MXP are cut.

How is DL's intercontinental service? There are mixed reviews of DL online but most of these are domestic or short haul international. Was this a factor in their lack of success in Italy or is it purely Italian economic conditions?

etops1 · Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:47 pm

So why is it that US can make it work from PHL and even CLT ?

LAXdude1023 · Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:59 pm

Quoting etops1 (Reply 23):
So why is it that US can make it work from PHL and even CLT ?

PHL-FCO is still a decent sized market and there is no competition.

CLT-FCO is seasonal.

usdcaguy · Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting etops1 (Reply 23):
So why is it that US can make it work from PHL and even CLT ?

I'm not sure US has much else to do with its equipment, although I wonder if they have thought about scheduling their wide-bodies to South America or the Caribbean in the winter. DL has a more robust network so they can deploy an aircraft used on FCO-JFK in the summer on HNL-NRT in the winter, for example, or take the plane out of service to install flat beds and perform routine maintenance. Also, US does not have a joint venture with an Italian carrier as does DL; AZ will still be flying FCO-JFK in the winter. I believe the revenue between DL and AZ is split somewhat evenly on those flights, so DL should still get the benefit of the revenue without having the associated cost.

Meanwhile, I believe ATL-FCO is still operating in the winter, even if it is not operating every day, and JFK-MXP is still operating as well. There is likely not much to discuss here. The entire point is that DL needs to put in flat beds ASAP and wants to quit spending money ferrying people over the water for fares that don't make any money, so a Roman holiday in January isn't going to be as easy to come by. That's not glamorous, but it may mean a larger profit sharing check for Delta's workers next Valentine's Day.

MAH4546 · Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting etops1 (Reply 23):

So why is it that US can make it work from PHL and even CLT ?

Plenty of possible reasons.

One reason is that US Airways has a pretty good cost structure, especially long-haul, that allows it to tolerate junk yield markets better than the others.

Another reason is that US Airways has no other better place to put the plane. DL, UA and AA are stronger internationally and can better re-locate equipment elsewhere, while US Airways simply does not have anything to fall back on.

A third reason is that UA, DL and AA all have anti-trust and profit sharing alliances, so they still participate in the Rome market via their partners. US does not have an ATI, so if it wants to be in Rome, it has to use its own metal, or ignore the market.

When AA, DL or UA decides to suspend Rome, that takes into account the capacity that it's partners have in Rome, where it will share on trans-Atlantic passenger revenue. US does not have the extraordinary benefit.

hohd · Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:41 pm

Even though these are not comparable, EK has 2 flights a day to FCO and is thinking of a 380 to FCO, whereas you have DL/AA/UA all cutting back. Well, when the lowest fare is quite high, no one will book you (business class pax included) unless you reduce the price. US survives because it does reduce fares to compensate for lower bookings.

jreuschl · Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:43 pm

So VCE stays during the winter but they cannot make FCO work? How can VCE have more business traffic?

jfklganyc · Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:50 pm

VCE has no other direct flights.

You guys can talk about the economy all you want BUT

TA travel was always weak in the winter

AND

This is the result of this new "joint venture" setup that airlines are going for nowadays.

DL and AZ are one and the same on JFK-FCO.

In the past, when they weren't, DL would have operated their own metal at a loss. Now...what's the point.

PLUS

The economy is bad, so it's a win win for them

I am more concerned about ATH.

Besides Hellenic (which I think is a charter?) no one will be on this route at all? How can that be?

EricR · Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:03 pm

When markets experience political (i.e. CAI) or economic issues (i.e. ATH), air travel is bound to be impacted. In the case of CAI, air travel has yet to get back to the levels it was before the political turmoil from last year. DL & UA/CO have yet to return to CAI.

The Italian economy is also experiencing its fair share of issues at the moment and, along with Greece, is at the forefront of the economic problems in the EU. Combine this with the seasonality of these markets and you have the cuts that you do.

The Spanish economy is also extremely sluggish and has a huge unemployment rate. Therefore, it would not surprise me to see a round of cuts coming to MAD & BCN by DL/UA/US/AA.

I will say it is a good strategy by DL is pull out if future bookings appear weak for one reason or another and re-enter these markets when things turn around.

ltbewr · Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:25 pm

I wonder if another reason for the seasonial suspensions is that JFK really does not have as many connecting flights by DL or it's partners to other locations in the USA as EWR has for example.

PHX787 · Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 22):
According to their interactive route map on the website they have service to VCE & seasonal service to PSA after FCO / MXP are cut.

So what about AZ's service to JFK? Does AZ have any service to ATL?

pnd100 · Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:33 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 32):
So what about AZ's service to JFK? Does AZ have any service to ATL?

Alitalia's website lists only the codeshares AZ7600 from FCO-ATL & AZ7618 from MXP-ATL, both were operated by DL. AZ608 & AZ610 fly FCO-JFK. AZ604 flies MXP-JFK. At least that is what I could gather from the website's timetable.

[Edited 2012-04-27 18:18:20]

DTWLAX · Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:07 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 3):
MXP, though, that's where the business is.

And yet they cut ATL-MXP. Curious....

What he meant was the market exists between JFK and MXP. Cutting ATL-MXP makes sense if it is not going to be profitable.

juantrippe82 · Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:36 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
Especially Rome. Although it's miserable in the summer.

I've been to Rome in July and I haven't found it miserable, unless you we're refering to the heat.

peanuts · Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:02 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 25):
so DL should still get the benefit of the revenue without having the associated cost.

I believe they share in the costs as well on JV flights. Unless you are referring to dedicating own metal as "costs".

SASDC8 · Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:13 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
And yet they cut ATL-MXP. Curious....

Because the economy in ATL is in the crapper

tpaewr · Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:50 am

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 15):
Really intersting that both DL/UA have suspended NYC-FCO for the winter, huge decrease in capacity.

I fully agree! When EWR-FCO got the axe, my thought was "SkyTeam kicked our butts". But clearly more is going on here.

klwright69 · Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:10 pm

I think all of southern Europe is just in a big slump, end of story.

United has a 757 on EWR-MAD even over the summer. This route has seen every widebody CO ever flew, even the 747 during the 92 Olympics.

More importantly in the off-season the slump is really pronounced.

[Edited 2012-04-28 05:28:28]

nycfly75 · Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:38 pm

....and let's not forget AZ now has a superior product on the JFK routes from FCO and MXP vs. DL. They have the new 3 class 332s on FCO & MXP with with a converted 3 class 772 coming on board this summer for one of the two FCO flights.

gokmengs · Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:45 pm

I know the JV allows them to cut flying routes on their own metal but, I am surprised about this. Not even 1 flight daily to FCO from JFK on DL metal. I always thought they would keep the route a la CDG some on their metal some on JV partners metal.
I may be contradicting my own post here, but at the end of the day its all about the bottom line if AZ and DL are sharing cost and revenue on TATL it really doesnt matter whose metal the route is being flown with. I am DL PMM on mostly TATL flying although 80% of my mileage comes from a single route. When I fly to FCO I would pick DL over AZ because I had many bad experiences with AZ. Delays due to strikes etc, not anything related to hard product.

Can someone with more knowledge tell me what this means for IST? I feel like there will be a bloodbath on this route after CO starts flying in July, if there is not one already. TK has 3 flights a day IIRC on 777W's DL has 1 daily 767 and soon CO once daily 767 from EWR. Will DL keep IST? I alost have a million miles on this route would be sad to see it go.

STT757 · Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting gokmengs (Reply 40):
Can someone with more knowledge tell me what this means for IST?

Turkey's economy is doing a lot better than Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland etc..

fxramper · Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:59 pm

I'd prefer UA to keep the EWR-FCO (764) running year around versus the IAD (763) route. UA runs EWR-MXP year round.

washingtonian · Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 41):
I'd prefer UA to keep the EWR-FCO (764) running year around versus the IAD (763) route. UA runs EWR-MXP year round.

Why? No competition in DC and they can just as easily connect passengers there.

delta2ual · Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting gokmengs (Reply 39):
I always thought they would keep the route a la CDG some on their metal some on JV partners metal.

Actually, there were summers when I was based at JFK with DL that we had no mainline DL JFK-CDG, only AF.

HVNandrew · Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 43):
Actually, there were summers when I was based at JFK with DL that we had no mainline DL JFK-CDG, only AF.

I think for about a year only AF flew the route. DL came back one summer with 1x daily 752, and it's since been upgauged back to a 763.

coronado · Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:18 pm

I think all should read up on the Joint venture Delta has with its AF/KL/AZ partners. Expect more seasonal aircraft redeployments depending on the economy, fuel and even anticipated heavy maintenance or modification schedules. Objective is for network to make money that is split among the participants. Already DL Q1 2012 results already reflect dramatic improvement on their Atlantic region results.

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=131

RobertS975 · Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:30 pm

The JV is important, no doubt. But unfortunately, at gateways like JFK, AZ and AF leave from a different terminal than DL does. This makes for more difficult connecting service Same situation at BOS... if there was room in Terminal A for the AZ and AF flights, it would make connecting flights more seamless.

catiii · Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:44 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 18):
Perhaps the ATL-MXP market isn't all that strong (is Atlanta a fashion centre, for example).

Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 35):
Because the economy in ATL is in the crapper

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 32):
. Cutting ATL-MXP makes sense if it is not going to be profitable.

Whether the ATL market is strong is irrelevant because DL isn't trying to draw traffic to ATL. They're trying to draw traffic from MXP via their ATL hub to the hundreds of cities ATL connects to.

bobnwa · Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:51 pm

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 46):
Same situation at BOS... if there was room in Terminal A for the AZ and AF flights, it would make connecting flights more seamless

There is plenty of room at Terminal A in Boston for intl departures but not for intl arrivals as Terminal A does not have customs

Talaier · Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:10 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 37):
United has a 757 on EWR-MAD even over the summer. This route has seen every widebody CO ever flew, even the 747 during the 92 Olympics.

AA and IB have 2 to 3 daily flights to JFK - a 757, and a mix of 343-346 - and they take the lion's share of the market, with most connections to the secondary US destinations going through ORD and DFW so it's almost purely O&D - business contracts, leisure etc. Hardly a weak market by their standards.

CO and DL are in a much weaker position in the MAD-NYC market (and the MAD-US market as a whole in general) which in my view reflects the dominance of IB/AA on the market rather than the weakness of the market as a whole. It has been negatively affected for sure, but IB/AA manage to fly to LAX, MIA, ORD, BOS, DFW and JFK year-round whilst CO can only pull EWR (not even IAH) and DL JFK and ATL.

Again, the JV has a lot to do with the market's situation.

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