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lightsaber
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Tue May 01, 2012 8:41 pm

What US destinations might become Q400 destinations? I see the Q400 being utilized on missions up to 600nm (still air). I'm a little surprised that the NorthWest and NorthCentral US has no WS flights until one goes East to Madison! There seems to be a significant market available for WS, in particular with connections. To YYC, I could see BOI and maybe even SEA. FAR is a bit out of reasonable Q400 flight time to YYC, but there must be opportunities I am overlooking.

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brilondon
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Tue May 01, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 48):
How about setting a foot at Toronto Island?

I thought about this before, but soon realized that PD owns that place and WS would be a competitor to PD, and to a lesser extent AC.
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wjv04
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Tue May 01, 2012 9:07 pm

Lets not forget the ATR must be ground loaded through the rear entrance, This we require signifigant infastructure changes at its hubs. Q400 is the logical choice here, for all reasons stated above in this thread.
 
boswashsprstar
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Tue May 01, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 42):
wifi will only be a working alternative if half the cabin could watch Netflix. Are the current systems at that level? I somewhat doubt it. Current tablets are great entertainment, if there are high levels of connectivity.

This is a critical issue with the whole "tablets & wifi replace traditional IFE" line of thinking. The Gogo in-flight wifi system that is currently popular with almost all of the US carriers is ground-based and has nowhere near the bandwidth necessary for mass streaming of video -- I have tried to watch Netflix and Hulu using Gogo before and if it works at all, it's a Windows 3.1 kind of video fidelity (i.e. essentially un-watchable). Supposedly satellite-based systems like Row 44 (on Southwest) are much faster, but I have no firsthand experience; likewise I have no idea what the deal is with the various inflight wifi offerings that have started to pop up on some intercontinental aircraft.

That said, there are also other approaches being tried -- for example AA has a system where you can stream a selection of movies (at a price) over the in-flight wifi, and the movies are stored on the server on the aircraft so you're not slowing down the air-to-ground connection. That kind of compromise seems likely to do well on shorter routes, especially as more and more people have tablets.
 
loveofflying
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Tue May 01, 2012 10:48 pm

@YOWza I completely agree.  

I fly 200K+ per year and I simply don't have time to research all the movies that are coming out. It would also get really expensive fast! I couldn't rent from iTunes, since often I don't finish movies. I'd also have to download everything at home, since hotels have unreliable WiFi at best.

When I get on a plane that's the first time I can think about what I'd like to watch. Of course, there are some particular things I download; I also have a stash of favorites for airlines without IFE or in the 1/100 flight where it's broken.
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Tue May 01, 2012 11:22 pm

I wish US carriers like AA, DL and US would dump their 50 seat RJs and go with the DH8-400.
 
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Tue May 01, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 8):
ATR would have been limited to its sectors and would have required multi-stop flights to get from say YVR to the middle of Canada compared to the Q400

Highly unlikely WS will use the Q400 on routes like that. They'll be used on regional routes, probably almost all less than 2 hours, feeding the major cities, in markets where 737s are much too big and where WS currently can't compete effectively with AC and their regional partners.

They could also use them boost frequency in shorthaul business markets like YYZ-YUL and YYZ-YOW where WS now doesn't give AC serious competition for the high-yield business passengers due their lack of frequency compared to AC's hourly service (half-hourly during peak morning and evening periods).

Current weekday frequency:
YYZ-YUL: AC 23, WS 10
YYZ-YOW: AC 16, WS 9.
 
YYZAMS
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Tue May 01, 2012 11:55 pm

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 48):

I wonder if they will give AC and Porter some competition from YTZ to YUL or YOW?
 
CRJ 900
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 12:12 am

Quoting WJV04 (Reply 52):
Lets not forget the ATR must be ground loaded through the rear entrance, This we require signifigant infastructure changes at its hubs. Q400 is the logical choice here, for all reasons stated above in this thread.

The ATR comes with an optional forward entry door so that you can load from a jetway or stairs. Personally I like the ATR better. Cabin is nicer, I find the noise and vibration levels lower. The Q400, rides like crap (ask any Jazz FA), god help the FA in the aft j/s and of my flights on the Q, 75% of the time, the NVS(noise reduction) is INOP (no matter how many times you reset it). I've flown on both enough to make a reasonable assessment.

In any case, congrats to Westjet... 
 
ridgid727
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 44):
Looking at just the western region,I can foresee WS operating new routes such as YVR - YXJ and YVR - YXT . It's current cities where WS has only one or two daily flights that I see them down-gauging from a B737 and increasing frequencies. AC / Jazz will likely respond by reducing frequencies and in-turn up-gauge to the Q400(assuming they order more). Very interesting times ahead!

Perhaps SEA, PDX and GEG to YYC and perhaps MSP-YWG
 
baje427
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 1:11 am

Quoting CRJ 900 (Reply 59):

Interesting view from the cabin pictures available on airliners.net I must say the ATR cabins look nice whats surprising is that you are not the first person to comment that the ATR is quieter when you say it rides like crap do you mean its bumpier in turbulence?
 
wjv04
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 1:54 am

Just want to clarify the current WS IFE misconception. Having a more through read of the various media announcements made in the last week regarding the IFE, It appears the portable tablets are a temporary solution and will be featured on only the recently manufactured and delivered NG’s (3 of them so far). The remaining aircraft in the fleet will continue to operate with the Live TVs until the permanent solution is decided on. Simply they are no longer installing the Live TV systems, rather just maintaining the ones they have in the current fleet. Clearly they are not happy with Live TV.

Personally I feel the WiFi is the logical solution and the direction WS will head, but considering it took Transport Canada years to initially certify Live TV, I wouldn’t expect anything different for certifying Wifi this time around either. I bet WS are very quietly working on getting the ball moving already behind the scenes with Transport Canada, and at least want to provide something for its passengers who have flights on the few specific aircraft, without having to eat the cost of installing Live TV that may not be used for more than a few months.
 
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 2:01 am

Not only is it bumpier in turbulence, it fishtails all over the place at the best of times. I can't imagine BBD wanting to stretch that thing any more. Yet the Dash8 100/200/300 and ATRs ride very nicely.
 
WestJet747
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 2:44 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 51):
Quoting Aircellist (Reply 48):
How about setting a foot at Toronto Island?

I thought about this before, but soon realized that PD owns that place and WS would be a competitor to PD, and to a lesser extent AC.

1) Porter owns the passenger terminal, not the airport. Porter doesn't have a say in who gets to fly in and out of there, the TPA (a government entity) does.

2) WS won't be flying out of there anytime soon because there are no free slots at present. All 202 slots have been allocated to PD (172) and AC (30). Should additional slots be made available by the TPA, I suspect WS might put in a bid. But this is highly unlikely at the moment because of all the fuss those NIMBYs are making right now (even though their case is rather poor). Alternatively, once AC decides to finally pull out of there I can see WS coming in and sweeping those 30 slots up for good measure.

Quoting WJV04 (Reply 62):
Just want to clarify the current WS IFE misconception. Having a more through read of the various media announcements made in the last week regarding the IFE, It appears the portable tablets are a temporary solution and will be featured on only the recently manufactured and delivered NG’s (3 of them so far). The remaining aircraft in the fleet will continue to operate with the Live TVs until the permanent solution is decided on. Simply they are no longer installing the Live TV systems, rather just maintaining the ones they have in the current fleet. Clearly they are not happy with Live TV.

   I spoke briefly with an acquaintance from WS the other night and he said exactly this. Although I believe it is 2 aircraft, not 3.
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toltommy
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 2:52 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 18):
Don't think they're for sale anyway. Sounds like UA is keeping the aircraft and will be transferring them to another carrier to operate for them.

Source? I've said this in other threads, I'll say it again. The Colgan Q's were leased by Pinnacle and placed at Colgan. The leases were rejected. The leaseholder will place them with the carrier will to pay the most for the birds. UA won't be able to pick them up for what Pinnacle was paying, there's too much demand for the birds. I haven't heard anything about UA wanting to keep them around aside from on A.net. If you've got a source, please share.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 35):
Well I guess the big question is will WS have some sort of name shift from WestJET to WestPROP for the Qs

LOL I was thinking the same!
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saloman
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 3:13 am

Quoting CRJ 900 (Reply 59):
The ATR comes with an optional forward entry door so that you can load from a jetway or stairs.

I recall a poster in a previous thread on the topic mentioning that the forward entry door option means a significant reduction in cargo capacity?

I've never ridden in the new ATRs, but I found the Q400 a real good ride for a prop - certainly more comfortable the a CRJ1/2.
 
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 3:47 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 32):
With onboard WiFi and, increasingly, seat plug-ins, content and battery life are moot points.

You forget who we're talking about here. WS will not offer onboard WiFi for free, nor will the vast majority of its customers pay for it. Many flights will be too short to watch anything but a half-hour (17 min) sitcom or two anyway, once all the mandatory announcements have run their course.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 37):
For those logging 150K+ a year the idea of having to fend for yourself entertainment wise is ridiculous. Especially when you consider these are some of the most valuable pax to an airline.

Not this airline. WS regional will not likely be attracting too many 100K+ milers.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 39):
Finally some Q's out west. For anyone wondering about acceptance of a prop plane; Canadians have been rattling around in Jazz's Dash fleet for decades and load factors are still very high.

Agree, we have paid our dues with the excellent yet aging Dash 8s. But the load factors are high out here despite, not because of the aircraft in use. In most cases, we have no choice.

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 44):
The future will get very interesting in the Canadian regional market with WS entering markets that were exclusive to AC / Jazz.

I'm thinking the main targets will likely be the third-tier carrier. Watch and see WestJet be the big bad guy in the media for once, when undercutting Hawkair, CMA, Pacific Coastal, Air North etc.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 40):

From what I read either here or on another forum, Single Engine Maximum Altitude for the Q is 17500ft compared to 11000ft for the ATR. Flying over the Rockies, it might have been a big consideration for the choice.

Basically rendering operations from YYC westwards a non-starter. They'd have to rebrand as NearlyWestJet. This is the main reason (as well as operating economics) that led me to very confidently state within the thread the first public release of the candidate aircraft that the Q400 would be the easy choice.

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 44):
Looking at just the western region,I can foresee WS operating new routes such as YVR - YXJ and YVR - YXT . It's current cities where WS has only one or two daily flights that I see them down-gauging from a B737 and increasing frequencies.

Yes, and as mentioned offering competition that will hurt a lot of smaller companies. A likely example of your latter scenario (down-guaging) might be YKA to & from YYC and YVR.

[Edited 2012-05-01 20:49:46]
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wjv04
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 4:12 am

Quoting saloman (Reply 66):
I recall a poster in a previous thread on the topic mentioning that the forward entry door option means a significant reduction in cargo capacity?

Indeed it does
 
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RayChuang
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 4:21 am

I think due to the slower flight speed and possibly its shorter range of the ATR72, it was not well-suited for WestJet's long routes across Canada, especially if it involves flights to towns in northern Canada. As such, the Dash 8-Q400 will work on WestJet's planned regional network.
 
toltommy
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 4:30 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 67):
You forget who we're talking about here. WS will not offer onboard WiFi for free, nor will the vast majority of its customers pay for it.

Their model, WN, is installing wifi. It won't be free, and the average stage length at Southwest is still in the 400nm range. They must think someone will pay for it.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 67):
WS regional will not likely be attracting too many 100K+ milers.

You don't think there will be connecting pax? I'd say they'll have more high value pax since they'll be able to get them to more places with a regional airline.
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FlyHossD
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 18):
Don't think they're for sale anyway. Sounds like UA is keeping the aircraft and will be transferring them to another carrier to operate for them.

The Colgan Q400s don't belong to UA (or CO). No doubt that the leasing companies are looking to make a deal to place the aircraft back into UAX service, though (and IIRC, Colgan owned a few).
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
CO777DAL
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 5:17 am

This is interesting. I have flown on CO Q400 many times and the new ATR-72-600 on BW. Having flown both on the Q400 and the NEW ATR-72-600, I can say from my experience, the new ATR-72-600 is a much better aircraft!

The ATR-72-600 is MUCH quieter, smoother (not vibrating), has great views because wing and wheels are not blocking it, the inside feels larger, and you think you’re on jet if you didn’t see the props. The Q400 is shakier, bumpy, louder, and vibrates more than the ATR-72-600.

I’m don't like props, but LOVE the ATR-72-600. I like it better than the ERJ and CRJ. For those that never flown on the new ATR-72-600 or Q400, I got some videos so you can compare.

ATR-72-600 Take-off Port of Spain, Trinidad Caribbean Airlines (It feels just like a jet.)
http://youtu.be/ahzMoMoutGg?hd=1

Continental Connection Q400 Take-off (I was seated further from the props on this flight than the ATR-72-600 in the previous video, but still louder)
http://youtu.be/Ag-8bNCd4hc?hd=1

Go to 2:26 into the video to see the interior of the ATR-72-600.
http://youtu.be/8Mn_-87hsT4?hd=1&t=2m26s

This was my first flight on the Q400. The thing was so loud you couldn’t hear yourself think. Also if you didn’t hold on to your drinks, they would go sliding all over the place because of the vibrations. It was one of the worst flights I ever had!
http://youtu.be/v9pAblxauV0?hd=1
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ANM604
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 6:00 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 44):
I'm not surprised that WS chose the Q400,that's not to say the ATR wasn't a serious contender or excellent aircraft. This order now puts pressure on AC to exercise the remaining 15 options that Jazz holds. The future will get very interesting in the Canadian regional market with WS entering markets that were exclusive to AC / Jazz.

I agree that Jazz needs more then the 15 Q's they currently have, as those RJ's are absolute pigs. However, I don't think you'll see AC picking up anything for them. Current "rumblings" from AC are indicating an increasing desire to get away from the very costly CPA with Jazz, not get more involved. In an ideal world they would rip the CPA with Jazz, and instead let other companies bid for the flying. Let Pasco/CMA/Sky Regional/Jazz whoever bid on portions, not giving the entire package to one company. Although that does come with its share of headaches. This is certainly going to put pressure on Jazz and AC though.

Quoting WJV04 (Reply 62):
I bet WS are very quietly working on getting the ball moving already behind the scenes with Transport Canada

They might be, but so are AC. As others have mentioned, they have been testing out WIFI from flights YYZ/YUL - LAX/SFO (I think SFO but am not certain), and are actively looking at what it would take to get it on the rest of the fleet. Unfortunately TC/Industry Canada are drrragggging their feet about it.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 67):
You forget who we're talking about here. WS will not offer onboard WiFi for free, nor will the vast majority of its customers pay for it.

Good point. They don't offer movies for free right now, why offer free wifi? Now can you imagine the whining if AC were to start charging for movies/ife?

Quoting threepoint (Reply 67):
Yes, and as mentioned offering competition that will hurt a lot of smaller companies.

Unfortunately I am afraid that will be the case. I was hoping, and still am, to see some of the smaller regionals being able to survive in the midst of this battle, but it is going to be tough.

One thing I am very curious about, is where they will be able to operate these Q's. YVR has virtually no space, YYC isn't really set up for them, and YYZ is a gong show. It should be interesting to see how the airports handle this. Also, congrats to BBD, this a *huge* shot in the arm for the Q line, great to see. I really hope WS does something a little more with the livery, their 737's are already boring enough (but still better then that hideous "Carantee" plane).
 
planemaker
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 6:06 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 67):
You forget who we're talking about here. WS will not offer onboard WiFi for free, nor will the vast majority of its customers pay for it. Many flights will be too short to watch anything but a half-hour (17 min) sitcom or two anyway, once all the mandatory announcements have run their course.

Does WS charge for their "seat back TV"?

Quote:
In-flight Wi-Fi takes off, except in Canada

WestJet does not offer Wi-Fi on any of its flights, but the airline is examining the prospect, spokesman Robert Palmer wrote in an email. A decision on whether to offer the service will be made sometime next year.
http://www.thestar.com/business/comp...t-wi-fi-takes-off-except-in-canada
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agent99nzboi
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 7:37 am

Quoting WJV04 (Reply 52):

The ATR can be accessed by air bridge, Air New Zealand uses an air bridge for the Mount Cook ATRs in IVC

Speaking of Mount Cook Airline, their ATR 72-500s and soon to be -600s operate over the Southern Alps of New Zealand into ZQN and MON which is at the base of Aoraki/Mount Cook, which is only around 600ft shorter than Mt Robson. And you seem to all have forgotten the numerous European operators who fly ATRs in Alpine environments.
so the argument of single engine ceiling doesn't stand.

As for range and sector length sure the Q400 has much better range, but Air Tahiti and Skywest(Virgin Australia) both operate the ATRs on very long routes, similar to that realistically likely to be flown by Westjet in Canada.

I Love the Q400, but there are many reasons ATR is succeeding and so popular. It would have been perfect for Westjet's operations and no doubt more profitable. To think that Politics and Patriotism had no part to play in the decision Is just silly, but delivery time and large discounting would have been what sealed the deal.

It is still great news for Westjet and bombardier, I look forward to seeing these aircraft in operation.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 8:10 am

Quoting agent99nzboi (Reply 75):
To think that Politics and Patriotism had no part to play in the decision Is just silly, but delivery time and large discounting would have been what sealed the deal.

Airlines and passengers, for the most part, don't really care who makes their aircraft so there's little reason to believe that patriotism had a thing to do with the decision. If so, AF wouldn't fly Boeing's and US wouldn't fly Airbus. Patriotism doesn't pay the bills and WS has proven time and again they are all about profit and long term sustainability.

As for delivery time, ATR wouldn't have bothered showing up to the game if they didn't think they could provide aircraft in a timely manner and it's no secret that all aircraft makers offer sweetheart deals to customers...especially big buyers.

So that leaves one thing; WS honestly believes, (and they should know), the Q400 is the plane that will make them the most profit.

Unlike the 737/320 race, there are clear differences between the ATR and Q400...both with their respective advantages. WS obviously thinks the Q's advantages outweigh the ATR advantages.

Just because the ATR is the right plane for some airlines, doesn't mean it's the right plane for all airlines.
What the...?
 
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RWA380
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 8:27 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 76):
Unlike the 737/320 race, there are clear differences between the ATR and Q400...both with their respective advantages. WS obviously thinks the Q's advantages outweigh the ATR advantages.

Other than the 737's are going to Hawaii and the A320 can't with their current ETOPS rating. I guess that changes with the NEO, yes they are two engined jets that take about the same amount of people. Both variants do make trans-atlantic flights.
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MEA-707
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 8:52 am

Quoting agent99nzboi (Reply 74):
Air Tahiti and Skywest(Virgin Australia) both operate the ATRs on very long routes, similar to that realistically likely to be flown by Westjet in Canada.

Especially in Air Tahiti's case, the market is totally different. As the sole airline connecting the islands, their customers have little to choose and rather fly 2,5 hours in an ATR then not at all. WestJet will compete with other airlines flying small jets and Q400s and might loose out when putting a slower ATR on the same route.

Quoting agent99nzboi (Reply 74):
To think that Politics and Patriotism had no part to play in the decision Is just silly

Like discussed in the earlier thread, probably BBD was prepared to drop their price more as loosing this order would create a big problem (closing the production line) while ATR didn't really need this order that hard with their packed orderbook. This lower purchase price probably compensated for slightly higher operational costs.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
saloman
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 9:05 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 77):

It wouldn't surprise me if ATR, knowing that this order could literally end their main competitor, was willing to offer just as as steep a price drop as BBD. IMO they both had a pretty strong incentive to win this order using as much a discount as was possible.
 
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par13del
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 10:41 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 75):
Airlines and passengers, for the most part, don't really care who makes their aircraft so there's little reason to believe that patriotism had a thing to do with the decision.

I would leave the pax out of the discussion, pax no where are happy with what airlines are doing, fees, fees, leg room, no service but it is happening and pax are footing the bill and some airlines are profitable.

I view the statement on politics and patriotism as applying to management, in which case the most part is applicaple.
Folks always mention AF with the Boeing 777, folks never mention what percentage of AF fleet is non-Boeing, but that's for another thread.

In any event, I expected the order to go to the Q400 so congrats to those involved.
The Q400 is lagging in sales behind the ATR and so far no one has a definitive reason why, no price dumping has been mentioned, no one has said that the Q400 is not a good a/c, so the numbers are just that, numbers.
If it is a marketing / price issue, is that political as the purchase is affected by something that does not involve the performance of the a/c.?
 
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c172akula
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 1:31 pm

As for the name of the regional, I heard a clip from Gregg Saretsky on the radio yesterday evening. He indicated that the regional will keep the WestJet name, so I guess the branding will remain the same on the Q's. The only difference is there might be some indication that it is operated by WestJet Regional (as a guess), since they will be operated as a separate company, so they have to have their own name.
 
CRJ 900
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 1:35 pm

I would just like to clarify something. Jazz/Chorus owns it's Q4s, including the 15 options, they do not belong AC. So we did not ask them to "pick us up" anything. With respect to the CRJs, the newest were delivered in 2004 fresh from the factory, the 705s much later. The 100s are in far better shape then when AC gave them to us both with respect to seating and technologically (cockpit upgrades). When it comes to space however the Q4 wins hands down.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 76):
Other than the 737's are going to Hawaii and the A320 can't with their current ETOPS rating.

What are you talking about?

http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/pr...d-for-180-minute-etops-by-the-faa/

A320 has ETOPS 180 approved by the FAA just like the 737. Meaning the current A320 series (most likely only A319 due to it's longer range) could potentially do US-Hawaii just like the 737.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 77):
Like discussed in the earlier thread, probably BBD was prepared to drop their price more as loosing this order would create a big problem (closing the production line) while ATR didn't really need this order that hard with their packed orderbook. This lower purchase price probably compensated for slightly higher operational costs.

BBD had to get WS. Pure and simple. Wether they are making money with the deal, that i doubt.

From what i hear, the Q400's margin for BBD isn't that impressive anyways. This deal was all about getting WS's feet wet with a Bombardier aircraft, to eventually try and sell another Bombardier aircraft...if you know what i mean.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-05-02 06:44:28]
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lightsaber
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting boswashsprstar (Reply 53):
I have tried to watch Netflix and Hulu using Gogo before and if it works at all, it's a Windows 3.1 kind of video fidelity (i.e. essentially un-watchable).

Thank you. Growing up with Windows 3.11 might explain why it took me so long to become enamored with computer video.

Quoting boswashsprstar (Reply 53):
That said, there are also other approaches being tried -- for example AA has a system where you can stream a selection of movies (at a price) over the in-flight wifi,

I like the idea of an onboard server. However, as I noted before, the main benefit on onboard IFE is passenger passivization and that only works if the annoying one brings a tablet, unless it is built in.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 66):
Many flights will be too short to watch anything but a half-hour (17 min) sitcom or two anyway, once all the mandatory announcements have run their course.

But it is amazing how, for some people, the IFE (if free) makes them happy.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 73):
Does WS charge for their "seat back TV"?

They didn't charge on our last flight. It made it much easier with two kids to turn on "Treehouse." WS has a family friendly reputation. While those are not high yield passengers, they seem to be loyal. And the IFE makes life easy on *all* of the passengers.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 75):
So that leaves one thing; WS honestly believes, (and they should know), the Q400 is the plane that will make them the most profit.

Without a doubt. The longer routes in Canada play to the Q400s strength. Not to mention the short field and engine out performance of the Q400.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 82):
BBD had to get WS. Pure and simple. Wether they are making money with the deal, that i doubt.

I'm sure WS received an excellent deal. I believe the profit for Bombardier will be if WS exercises options. Now lets hope this gives customers enough incentive to purchase further Q400s.

Lightsaber
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threepoint
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 72):
One thing I am very curious about, is where they will be able to operate these Q's. YVR has virtually no space, YYC isn't really set up for them, and YYZ is a gong show.

Please explain how the airports aren't set up for a Q400. Do you mean slot availability? Ramp space? Gate configuration? Integration with larger aircraft? Assuming there is no congestion, I see no reason why any airport currently served by WS couldn't operate the Q400.

Quoting agent99nzboi (Reply 74):
Speaking of Mount Cook Airline, their ATR 72-500s and soon to be -600s operate over the Southern Alps of New Zealand into ZQN and MON which is at the base of Aoraki/Mount Cook, which is only around 600ft shorter than Mt Robson. And you seem to all have forgotten the numerous European operators who fly ATRs in Alpine environments.
so the argument of single engine ceiling doesn't stand.

Until you consider the MEA and/or MOCA in the area. In western Canada, they are a minimum of 11000' crossing the Rockies and in most cases significantly higher. What are the enroute min altitudes when flying to the NZ airports you mention or along the European routes?

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 82):
This deal was all about getting WS's feet wet with a Bombardier aircraft, to eventually try and sell another Bombardier aircraft...if you know what i mean.

Yes, we C what you're getting at.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 79):
I would leave the pax out of the discussion, pax no where are happy with what airlines are doing, fees, fees, leg room, no service but it is happening and pax are footing the bill and some airlines are profitable.

Passengers want cheap fares and competition is cutthroat. To offer these fares, airlines have to keep their expenses down. That's why they don't buy aircraft for emotional reasons, like the nationality of the aircraft maker. Of course, this only holds for non subsidized airlines. If a government is footing part of the bill, they get to have a say in the product.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 82):
This deal was all about getting WS's feet wet with a Bombardier aircraft, to eventually try and sell another Bombardier aircraft...if you know what i mean.

That's one hell of a long shot to get WS to add a third type to its fleet. They are festooned with brand new versions of the very types that the CSeries would replace. There's nothing to indicate that this deal was about anything other than the Q's.
What the...?
 
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c172akula
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 85):
That's one hell of a long shot to get WS to add a third type to its fleet.

True, and we all know that the third type will be the 787.  
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 83):
They didn't charge on our last flight. It made it much easier with two kids to turn on "Treehouse." WS has a family friendly reputation. While those are not high yield passengers, they seem to be loyal. And the IFE makes life easy on *all* of the passengers.

It's nice to have Treehouse on LiveTV, but AC has an excellent selection of kids shows (many of them from Treehouse) on their AVOD system. I've flown both WS and AC with my toddler, and couldn't consider one to be more "family friendly" than the other, if you have a cute kid you get smiles from both.
 
brilondon
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 63):
1) Porter owns the passenger terminal, not the airport. Porter doesn't have a say in who gets to fly in and out of there, the TPA (a government entity) does.

Yeah I did not mean literally owns the airport, I meant they have the majority of the flights at YTZ. I know that there aren't any more slots there.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
Viscount724
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 83):
Quoting planemaker (Reply 73):
Does WS charge for their "seat back TV"?

They didn't charge on our last flight. It made it much easier with two kids to turn on "Treehouse." WS has a family friendly reputation. While those are not high yield passengers, they seem to be loyal. And the IFE makes life easy on *all* of the passengers.

The problem with the WS system is that it's satellite-based, so it only works on flights over Canada and the mainland U.S. That means you have no IFE system on the many WS flights to Hawaii, the Caribbean and Mexico. WS even mentions that in their website.

Our live seatback television service spans Canada and most of the continental U.S. If you are flying to a southern, sunny WestJet destination outside this range we recommend bringing books, magazines, portable DVD players or toys for your little WestJetters.
 
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c172akula
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 10:00 pm

It is also worth mentioning that the Bell Satellite TV they use will have a new satellite up soon, and its coverage area is only Canada. So all their flights to the continental US would be without TV.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 85):
That's one hell of a long shot to get WS to add a third type to its fleet. They are festooned with brand new versions of the very types that the CSeries would replace.

I could see the 736's replaced by the CSeries.

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 86):
True, and we all know that the third type will be the 787.

So 4 types, then   

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
cyeg66
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 10:39 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 90):
I could see the 736's replaced by the CSeries.

A whole new type, parts inventory, and pilot group to predominantly replace 12 frames is a little bit of a stretch, even for you.   I know you want to boost Quebec aircraft production and all but this is an Albertan company after all. They normally get their money transfers through the Feds....Lol.
slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
 
Viscount724
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 91):
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 90):
I could see the 736's replaced by the CSeries.

A whole new type, parts inventory, and pilot group to predominantly replace 12 frames is a little bit of a stretch

I think they have 13 736s, or have they disposed of one?
 
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Wed May 02, 2012 11:15 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 88):
The problem with the WS system is that it's satellite-based, so it only works on flights over Canada and the mainland U.S. That means you have no IFE system on the many WS flights to Hawaii, the Caribbean and Mexico.

Thank you. That would be 'inconvenient.' However, on our last WS flight, the IFE was wonderful for keeping the cabin passive.    (LAX-YVR)

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 89):
So all their flights to the continental US would be without TV.

I'm hearing WS will select a new IFE vendor. Everything I've heard is the tablets are a stopgap until a new vendor is selected. So that should fix the issue.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 90):
I could see the 736's replaced by the CSeries.

With growth, I see a subfleet of 25 CS300 to start. But WS would be wise to let Bombardier 'debug' the type.

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 86):
True, and we all know that the third type will be the 787.

If anything, the launch of the MAX is very likely to delay the business case for a true long haul WS plane. If the TATL version does come about, it will open YYZ to Europe and limited European destinations for YYC (really no further than MAN, so really limited...).

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 86):
It's nice to have Treehouse on LiveTV, but AC has an excellent selection of kids shows (many of them from Treehouse) on their AVOD system. I've flown both WS and AC with my toddler, and couldn't consider one to be more "family friendly" than the other, if you have a cute kid you get smiles from both.

Agreed. I made no comment on AC.   I just *really* liked WS service!

Lightsaber
4 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Thu May 03, 2012 4:32 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 84):
Please explain how the airports aren't set up for a Q400. Do you mean slot availability? Ramp space? Gate configuration? Integration with larger aircraft? Assuming there is no congestion, I see no reason why any airport currently served by WS couldn't operate the Q400.

I think he means physical space for extra services over and above what they have now with the 737's. Cant speak for YYC or YYZ too much, but in YVR they just have the A gates and at peak times when the waves are coming and going, all those gates are used, so do they go remote off B with Hawkair & CMA or possibly remote off A, there is space.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 66):
Watch and see WestJet be the big bad guy in the media for once, when undercutting Hawkair, CMA, Pacific Coastal, Air North etc.

I sure hope not, I love 8P and its been horrible too see them cut back and keep going. Likewise HA, though they have new owners to help. 9M should be OK all the while they have the Jazz work & the charters. 4N have their loyal niche, YXY will stay 737 territory I think.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 75):
Airlines and passengers, for the most part, don't really care who makes their aircraft so there's little reason to believe that patriotism had a thing to do with the decision. If so, AF wouldn't fly Boeing's and US wouldn't fly Airbus. Patriotism doesn't pay the bills and WS has proven time and again they are all about profit and long term sustainability.

Normally I would agree, but in this case I think it was certainly a small factor, at least its one they can point out to the Canadian public anyway, see this.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Thread starter):
We look forward to working with another great Canadian company."
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 90):
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 85):
That's one hell of a long shot to get WS to add a third type to its fleet. They are festooned with brand new versions of the very types that the CSeries would replace.

I could see the 736's replaced by the CSeries.

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 86):
True, and we all know that the third type will be the 787.

So 4 types, then

I think there is more chance of the C at WS than AC... just IMO. If it is operated by Regional with the Q400 (like Jazz with the Dash's & CRJ's) then WS operate the 737's (& 787's   ) thats two types each. And a lot will depend on what happens over at AC, or how much they feel they can drive further nails into the coffin.

I can see WS dropping or severely reducing the -700 size when the MAX order comes around and going with -8's & -9's and have the CS in between. Most new deliveries have all been 800's recently and while I am often told the 900 will not work for WS, I still disagree and think we will see it in the next order.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 92):
I think they have 13 736s, or have they disposed of one?

You are correct as usual, still 13 http://wwwapps2.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur...2/ccarcs/aspscripts/en/current.asp
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Thu May 03, 2012 4:54 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 94):

Normally I would agree, but in this case I think it was certainly a small factor, at least its one they can point out to the Canadian public anyway, see this.

That's after the fact PR spin. If they would have chosen ATR, nationality never would have come up or been an issue. Canadian bought ATR's, AC bought E-jets...and nobody apologised for buying the planes they thought were the best ones for the jobs required.

If WS didn't think the Q was the plane that will make them the most profit, they would have bought ATR's without a single thought of jingoism.

This deal was strictly about the TProps. Nobody has to soften up a manufacturer to buy planes. If a contract is up for grabs, everybody who can, will bid...regardless of whether or not an airline has ever been a customer.

If WS ever does end up looking for a 100-145 seater, the CSeries will be offered, for the same prices, regardless of what happened with the prop deal.

Except in rare cases, no maker can afford to hold such a grudge that they won't sell planes to an airline. It's not personal....it's business.
What the...?
 
kiramakora
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Thu May 03, 2012 5:33 am

Wow. Impressive stuff coming from WS these days. What a contrast from AC. Who is managing their network planning these days? I met an impressive well travelled guy last time around and I wonder if he is still there.
 
ANM604
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Thu May 03, 2012 7:20 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 94):
Quoting threepoint (Reply 84):
Please explain how the airports aren't set up for a Q400. Do you mean slot availability? Ramp space? Gate configuration? Integration with larger aircraft? Assuming there is no congestion, I see no reason why any airport currently served by WS couldn't operate the Q400.

I think he means physical space for extra services over and above what they have now with the 737's. Cant speak for YYC or YYZ too much, but in YVR they just have the A gates and at peak times when the waves are coming and going, all those gates are used, so do they go remote off B with Hawkair & CMA or possibly remote off A, there is space.

Yes, that's what I was getting at. There won't be much room for anything at YVR once the B-Pier work gets underway, so it will be interesting to see what YVRAA and WS can come up with. While YYC isn't nearly as bad as YVR, they aren't exactly wide open, especially for 5-6 Q's (or more) at a time. And YYZ is, well, YYZ; when is not congested there.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 95):
That's after the fact PR spin. If they would have chosen ATR, nationality never would have come up or been an issue. Canadian bought ATR's, AC bought E-jets...and nobody apologised for buying the planes they thought were the best ones for the jobs required.

Spot on. WS bought the best plane for them, not Canada.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Thu May 03, 2012 8:50 am

Nice job Gregg and team!
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
RJLover
Posts: 373
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RE: WS Announces Q400 As Regional Prop

Thu May 03, 2012 12:53 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 94):
9M should be OK all the while they have the Jazz work & the charters.

9M has not flown for AC (on a CPA) since Oct 2011. Air Georgian picked up 100% of the B1900 flying in YYC. They do, however, still have the AC codeshare on select flights to/from YVR.

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