BA Announce LHR-ICN

LHR27C · Thu May 03, 2012 7:22 am

BA have announced they will be returning to Seoul from December, 6x weekly. Flight numbers BA017 and BA018 operated by 4 class 777.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/ba-returns-to-seoul

watewate · Thu May 03, 2012 7:37 am

Long overdue! Curious what sort of yield they will pull.

mikey72 · Thu May 03, 2012 7:46 am

Excellent.

The beginning of much needed and overdue expansion.

migair54 · Thu May 03, 2012 8:02 am

After so much speculation here, at least ICN is back in the network.

KE is flying the route and I think they are doing very well, so I guess BA will do well, and if they start with a 4-class plane is because they really forecast very good yields, and also using a low density plane will allow them to uplift more cargo, that will help BA to make good profit.

We will see soon more destinations using the new slots they got from BMI, and as soon as they start getting the A380 some planes will be free to start more destinations or add more freqs.

What´s next??

planesailing · Thu May 03, 2012 8:03 am

Conveniently timed announcement that coincides with the launch of KE's route to LGW. Wonder how long that will last with the increase in competition.

richardw · Thu May 03, 2012 9:11 am

Where are they getting the slots and aircraft from?

Will CX add a BA code to their HKG-ICN flights?

mikey72 · Thu May 03, 2012 9:21 am

Quoting richardw (Reply 5):
Where are they getting the slots

Umm...we've all been having a right old slagging match for what seems like years over a certain acquisition of a certain airline by another.........

anstar · Thu May 03, 2012 9:30 am

Quoting richardw (Reply 5):
Where are they getting the slots and aircraft from?

Well they have plenty of new slots from the BD acquisition and they also have some 747's stored that could be brought back to replace current 777's thus freeing up a 777 for the route.

scouseflyer · Thu May 03, 2012 9:35 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 6):
Quoting richardw (Reply 5):
Where are they getting the slots

Umm...we've all been having a right old slagging match for what seems like years over a certain acquisition of a certain airline by another.........

I'm more interested by where the aircraft are coming from, there's a trickle of new 777s coming and the first A380 next year but I feel that BA will need a few more mid-sized wides to complement the 787s that will be replacing the 767s over the next few years.

They love their 777s but how about a few A330s

lhr380 · Thu May 03, 2012 9:36 am

Brilliant news!!!

Regarding the plane, in march BA get the first 787 and 380 aircraft which frees up more planes as well.

ZuluAlpha · Thu May 03, 2012 9:40 am

Quoting richardw (Reply 5):
Where are they getting the slots and aircraft from?

While no where near as many as the BD purchase by IAG, QF is also 'leasing' slots to BA with QF 's international restructure (reduction of services to LHR)

fcogafa · Thu May 03, 2012 9:41 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
KE is flying the route and I think they are doing very well

Of course Asiana fly the route as well....

richardw · Thu May 03, 2012 9:48 am

Quoting richardw (Reply 5):
Where are they getting the slots.....from?

Well some of you fell for the bait!

What I mean't to say "Is it easy to identify where the slots are coming from for this route, is it likely to be specific cancellations of some BD routes, or some slot shuffling?"

mikey72 · Thu May 03, 2012 10:02 am

Quoting richardw (Reply 12):
Well some of you fell for the bait!

I was kind of hoping you weren't that dopey !

Quoting richardw (Reply 12):
is it likely to be specific cancellations of some BD routes, or some slot shuffling?"

Who knows these days ?

IB, QF, BD, BA....

Take your pick.

rutankrd · Thu May 03, 2012 10:41 am

Those slots appear to be occupied by a SFO rotation at the moment.

That said IAG and Oneworld can pretty much use any of their vast slot allocation as they see fit with more than 50% of all slots being under their control.

This initial new route should be within the current fleet capabilities one would have thought .

I really don't see any further desert returns.

mikey72 · Thu May 03, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 14):
I really don't see any further desert returns.

Oh how many...1 or 2 744's still there.....they may aswell just dust them off and get them back.

On a probably too simplistic note surely with the extra slots they will need extra widebody aircraft ?

Stick'em on LHR-GLA/EDI for a while....show off Club and First to otherwise defecting Scots, drum up some new premium business ?

mal787 · Thu May 03, 2012 11:10 am

Maybe QF can link up with this with flights from Aust' , it would break the old " would you like a stop in Singapore or Singapore on both legs "

But sadly I cant see it happening

Mla787

jfk777 · Thu May 03, 2012 11:18 am

Is been 14 years since BA flew to Seoul, why did it take them so long ?

booforty · Thu May 03, 2012 11:20 am

Good to see BA return to this route. It was expected and long overdue.

qf002 · Thu May 03, 2012 11:23 am

Good news... A long time overdue -- next up KUL??

Quoting mal787 (Reply 16):

Singapore... Or Hong Kong, Bangkok, Shanghai, Tokyo, Los Angeles, Dallas, New York or Johannesburg...

LX138 · Thu May 03, 2012 11:28 am

Interesting news. I think they may find it hard, particularly with the ethnic traffic who are used to Korean and Asiana. But if the J yields are there, and I'm sure they could be - this will help.

SKAirbus · Thu May 03, 2012 12:18 pm

Quoting LX138 (Reply 20):
Interesting news. I think they may find it hard, particularly with the ethnic traffic who are used to Korean and Asiana. But if the J yields are there, and I'm sure they could be - this will help.

There is a huge Korean population in South West London and I think like most people they look for the best deal they can get an not necessarily stick to the same carrier. It is slightly different for business.

I think BA have a shot here and they wouldn't restart a route if they weren't confident it would yield. I think the biggest losers here will be the likes of CX, EK, CA and LH who all offer connecting flight to Seoul from London.

hoons90 · Thu May 03, 2012 12:35 pm

I'm ecstatic!

Now if only AA announces ICN, that will be the icing on the cake.

skipness1E · Thu May 03, 2012 12:36 pm

Tough cookie with the home team of Korean upping capacity with a LGW B777 and the imminent arrival of the A380 into LHR. Throw in a daily Asiana B777 and I can only assume BA have some knowledge the wider audience lacks.

LHRFlyer · Thu May 03, 2012 12:39 pm

I imagine cargo will help with the performance of this route.

qf002 · Thu May 03, 2012 12:55 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 23):

Perhaps they are simply aware of the fact that it's now or never with ICN, given the capacity increases coming in over the next year or so.

Bongodog1964 · Thu May 03, 2012 12:58 pm

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 8):
I'm more interested by where the aircraft are coming from, there's a trickle of new 777s coming and the first A380 next year but I feel that BA will need a few more mid-sized wides to complement the 787s that will be replacing the 767s over the next few years.

As you say there's a trickle of new 777's arriving, two recently, and two more for next year. Thats enough for two or three new routes, but anything else probably will have to wait for the A380 and B787 orders to start arriving.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 13):

Quoting richardw (Reply 12): is it likely to be specific cancellations of some BD routes, or some slot shuffling?"
Who knows these days ?

IB, QF, BD, BA....

Take your pick.

Bearing in mind that BA always seem to have found a few extra slots for each succesive scheduling period at LHR for the past 10 years it really is "who knows"

fcogafa · Thu May 03, 2012 1:07 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 23):
Tough cookie with the home team of Korean upping capacity with a LGW B777 and the imminent arrival of the A380 into LHR.

Have Korean announced this yet?

MAV88 · Thu May 03, 2012 1:27 pm

It is a bit of a head scratcher that BA has not served Seoul, a major Asian city, in well over a decade.

Sunfly · Thu May 03, 2012 1:48 pm

Seoul was always going to be their next new long haul destination. It is a strong and growing business market, with high J and F demand, plus plenty of VFR to fill up the back of the cabin. It has been rumoured for around 18 months that it was target number 1 for BA, and with the arriva of extra flights to LGW with Korean they must have seen it as 'now or never'.

I'm looking forward to the next announcements of new long haul routes. The likely new routes are; Bogota in South America and Guangzhou and Osaka in Asia.

grimey · Thu May 03, 2012 2:11 pm

Hopefully BA have a back up to their GPS on the B777

North Korea Jamming GPS Signal? (by 76er May 2 2012 in Civil Aviation)

ATL · Thu May 03, 2012 2:24 pm

Finally! This is LONG overdue lol to me, Seoul has always been the one hole that didn't make sense in BA's network.

skipness1E · Thu May 03, 2012 4:05 pm

When was LHR-SEL dropped and what was the equipment used and routing?

AirAfreak · Thu May 03, 2012 4:22 pm

BA isn't looking so great in terms of seat comfort if you fly Economy, so I'm anxious to see a future trip report regarding customer service, catering, and overall inflight experience.

Korean Air Economy Class 33"-34" pitch
Asiana Travel Class (Y) 34" pitch
British Airways World Traveller (4-cabin 777) 31" pitch

I can't wait to see the look of shock and annoyance on the faces of Korean passengers sitting in Club World when the cabin crew passes meals in their personal space to the adjacent rear-facing passenger (or forward-facing passenger).

First Class, however, is impressive and will be a nice boost of revenue for BA on this route.

The KE, CX, SQ, TG, and NH's of the world will always prevail at the end, it seems.

by738 · Thu May 03, 2012 4:54 pm

Who was it that said there wouldnt be a return to ICN from BA ?

hoons90 · Thu May 03, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 32):
When was LHR-SEL dropped and what was the equipment used and routing?

Flight BA041/042 LHR-SEL-LHR was dropped during the Asian Financial Crisis in 1998. Aircraft used was a 744. Frequency was less than daily, I believe 3-4x weekly.

DL is another airline that has returned to Seoul (in 2007) after it dropped Seoul in April 1999. AZ is rumored to return as well. No word on QF or NZ returning, although QF did operate BNE-ICN and SYD-ICN on a seasonal basis in 2006 and 2007.

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 33):
BA isn't looking so great in terms of seat comfort if you fly Economy, so I'm anxious to see a future trip report regarding customer service, catering, and overall inflight experience.

I flew on a BA 772 from YYZ to LHR in 2010, and didn't mind the seats too much (I'm 6ft). The food was exceptional for Y class, possibly the best Y meal I've ever had. PTV was very old school--small screens with a dozen channels, but I doubt the old GE-powered 772s would fly the new ICN flight.

[Edited 2012-05-03 10:10:28]

tonystan · Thu May 03, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 33):
I can't wait to see the look of shock and annoyance on the faces of Korean passengers sitting in Club World when the cabin crew passes meals in their personal space to the adjacent rear-facing passenger (or forward-facing passenger).

Air Freak, Koreans sense of personal space is no different to that of Japanese, Arabic and many other nationalities and cultures that BA cater for. It will be no different when they board a BA flight. They will see it for what it is and accept it and Im sure the seat will be just as popular on the Seoul route as it is everywhere else!

skipness1E · Thu May 03, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 34):

I doubted it as I was sure there was more "low hanging fruit" before Korea. Management speak alert!

AirAfreak · Thu May 03, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 36):

I mentioned Koreans (I'm Korean and therefore, cannot speak for Japanese, Arabic, etc.) specifically as this is related to the ICN flight... I failed to be clear on my point, and that would be loyalty retention for BA ICN-pax versus long-standing KE/OZ pax that have been used to a more personal space (also due to the long absence of BA after the departure of SEL) in Business.

In my opinion, Club World will be experienced for at least one roundtrip LHR-ICN v.v. by any new passenger traffic. After my observations and experience, I feel, the non-Executive Club/One World fliers will return to KE, OZ, etc...

Again, just an observation

AirAfreak (Air Afrique)

hoons90 · Thu May 03, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 36):
Air Freak, Koreans sense of personal space is no different to that of Japanese, Arabic and many other nationalities and cultures that BA cater for. It will be no different when they board a BA flight. They will see it for what it is and accept it and Im sure the seat will be just as popular on the Seoul route as it is everywhere else!

Agreed.

KLM has been serving Seoul continuously for 28 years with 747s configured with 31" seating in Y class.

Lufthansa also has 31" seat pitch on their A340s, and continue to serve Seoul without any hint of reducing capacity. They are in fact going to serve ICN twice daily this winter for the first time (1x FRA, 1x MUC). Lufthansa is the only airline that I am aware of that actually beat KE out of a market (KE withdrew their ICN-MUC service in 2008).

B747-4U3 · Thu May 03, 2012 5:43 pm

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 38):

I dont think the issue will be as big as you make out. BA compete on many routes where their competitors offer more personal space and they still manage to fill their flights in many cases with a good yield. I don't see why Korea would be any different.

Furthermore, many Koreans fly from Seoul to Europe on Emirates, Qatar and Etihad as well as Lufthansa, Air France and KLM. BA offer a competitive product against their European competitors so I don't see why they would be at anymore of a disadvanatge than those carriers.

AirAfreak · Thu May 03, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 39):

I am curious to see the yield comparisons between KE versus LH, KL, and soon BA. (Famously on a.net, LH is not the most celebrated in terms of Economy Class)

Asia will prevail!!!!

[Edited 2012-05-03 10:56:10]

AirAfreak · Thu May 03, 2012 6:04 pm

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 40):

I only mentioned BA versus KE and OZ because of the thread title (announcing the return of BA), the flight routing (nonstop), and the product. (I am aware there are KL via AMS, SQ via SIN, LH via MUC, EK via DXB, etc.)

I wasn't trying to slam BA or make a big deal over this (as I mentioned the positives of the three airlines flying nonstop LHR-ICN v.v.), but simply, the comparisons and the possible outcomes.

I apologize for not being clear

Talaier · Thu May 03, 2012 9:11 pm

Long overdue yet a step in the right direction. Pity it's not daily though.

MillwallSean · Thu May 03, 2012 10:29 pm

Good choice.

To be honest i dont think the main target with this flight is Koreans. Koreans tend to fly their home carriers and i doubt BA will make a big inroad into that.
The target is brits and people with Oneworld or BA corporate travel. Add on the usual economy sales through various travelagents. And to be honest that should be enough to make the route work.

MAH4546 · Thu May 03, 2012 11:06 pm

Anybody know exactly what flight and/or destination is being cut to fund this flight? Is it an ex-bmi or IAG slot?

[Edited 2012-05-03 16:07:23]

lightsaber · Fri May 04, 2012 12:34 am

Good to see! Question, is this flight starting late enough to be fed by BD feed? In other words, are we seeing the first benefits of the BD acquisition?

And when will KE upgauge to the either the A380 or 748i?

Quoting planesailing (Reply 4):

Conveniently timed announcement that coincides with the launch of KE's route to LGW. Wonder how long that will last with the increase in competition.

I would be curious to see how it goes in a 3 way slugfest. But this could be a case where more traffic brings more attention and connections. Does JL fly enough flights to ICN to provide some feed? (I know, they would rather fly them themselves, but I'm thinking from a OW perspective.)

Good luck to BA.
Lightsaber

hoons90 · Fri May 04, 2012 12:59 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 46):
And when will KE upgauge to the either the A380 or 748i?

LHR will have to wait until the 6th KE A380 is delivered later this year.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 46):
Does JL fly enough flights to ICN to provide some feed?

JL's Seoul operations are much bigger at GMP than at ICN. ICN only has a 2x daily 767 service to NRT whereas GMP has three HND flights and two KIX flights.

bananaboy · Fri May 04, 2012 12:59 am

This may put increased pressure on OZ to add to the number of Quadra Smartium aircraft in the fleet. Whilst the new seat is good, their old product just doesn't cut it against BA's flat-bed C product, not to mention that they do not offer F on the route.

If OZ want to improve yields in C class, they may have to up their game.

Mark

WAC · Fri May 04, 2012 1:14 am

A lot of people under estimate UK ROK links. The UK is the biggest foreign investor in Korea (mostly due to banks and financial institutions) and the Korean-EU free trade agreement will enable more investment in both directions. Korea is a very high yielding maket just look at the fares EK charge to ICN compared to similar routings. BA will struggle product terms in Y, J, F compared to OZ and to some extent KE but British Airways has a great brand recognition and respect in the far east.

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