Reuters: UA Puts Final Touches On Major 737 Order

catiii · Fri May 04, 2012 3:35 am

Reuters reporting 100 737 MAX, with options on another 100. Fair use:

Reuters) - United Airlines (UAL.N) is putting the finishing touches on an order for at least 100 Boeing Co (BA.N) 737 narrowbody jets potentially worth $10 billion (6 billion pounds) at list prices, industry sources said on Thursday.

The order could increase to as many as 200 jets if United exercises about 100 options to buy other narrowbodies. The deal will feature mainly Boeing's upcoming 737 MAX, an upgraded, fuel-efficient version of the company's best-selling 737, said the sources who are close to the negotiations.

More here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/0...%20/%20UK%20/%20Business%20News%29

strfyr51 · Fri May 04, 2012 9:59 am

'Bout Doggone TIME don't you Think?? About 5-6 years LATE I'd say.. for the order and 4 years for the Delivery though the 737 Max with it's electronic controlled Air conditioning system should be Far easier to maintain Than the old Air cycle system. Self monitoring with real time Aircraft Health management on the 737 would REALLY increase it's worth as Airbus has REAL time Fault Monitiring across it's ENTIRE product line now with "Aeroman". And that is SWEET!
All Boeing new designs should also have it as STANDARD eqipment.

windy95 · Fri May 04, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 1):
737 Max with it's electronic controlled Air conditioning system should be Far easier to maintain Than the old Air cycle system. Self monitoring with real time Aircraft Health management on the 737 would REALLY increase it's worth a

Also heard the MAX will finally have fly by wire on the spoilers. That will eliminate a bunch of weight and stop us from having to change the spoiler mixer and ratio changer. and having to perform the spoler rig during heavy checks. Another time and money saver.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 1):
'Bout Doggone TIME don't you Think?? About 5-6 years LATE I'd say

Now let us see what they do for the wide-body order. Hopefully that will be settled much sooner.

tommy767 · Fri May 04, 2012 1:13 pm

Why this order exactly? How much range can the MAX generate?

anfromme · Fri May 04, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 2):
Now let us see what they do for the wide-body order. Hopefully that will be settled much sooner.

Already settled, isn't it?
A total of 50 787-8/-9 and 25 A350-900. Continental ordered about half of the 787s if I remember correctly, and United in 2010 ordered 25 each of the 787 and A350. No major changes planned to this according to Smisek, and I don't think they have another widebody RFP out at this point.

STT757 · Fri May 04, 2012 1:44 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 3):
Why this order exactly? How much range can the MAX generate?

It isn't about range, it's efficiency. The MAX is projected to have up to 13% improved fuel economy vs current NG models, this order will likely replace UA's domestic 757s, 737-500s and narrowbody Airbus aircraft.

JetBlueGuy2006 · Fri May 04, 2012 1:58 pm

How will this affect the UA Airbus fleet? Are they aiming to become a Boeing narrow-body customer?

kgaiflyer · Fri May 04, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 6):
How will this affect the UA Airbus fleet? Are they aiming to become a Boeing narrow-body customer?

At $110 a barrel, more likely an operator of world-class fuel-efficient narrowbodies -- whoever the manufacturer.

SonomaFlyer · Fri May 04, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 4):
Already settled, isn't it?
A total of 50 787-8/-9 and 25 A350-900. Continental ordered about half of the 787s if I remember correctly, and United in 2010 ordered 25 each of the 787 and A350. No major changes planned to this according to Smisek, and I don't think they have another widebody RFP out at this point.

Those numbers are only for the firm orders, not options. If they exercise the options, the size of the order I believe doubles.
UA will also have flexibility within the sub types of each a/c (i.e. 788, 789 etc).

The only other possible wide body order from UA I'd expect over the next five years is possibly a 77X order but even that isn't likely given they can increase their 359 order which seats 314 in a three class layout. Could UA order a 77X variant or even the 748 to cover seating up to and over 400? Sure but it would run counter to what UA has repeatedly stated and to the pattern of their wide body orders to date.

The 350-1000 is stated to seat 350 in a three class layout.

The move among most airlines is to streamline a/c types when able. This improves efficiency and helps minimize disruptions when IRROPS occur.

[Edited 2012-05-04 07:20:17]

United1 · Fri May 04, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 6):
How will this affect the UA Airbus fleet? Are they aiming to become a Boeing narrow-body customer?

Some of the older 320's (circa 1993/1994) will probably be retired with this order but there are quite a few newer 320's/319's that will fly on for the next 10-15 years before reaching the end of their useful life. This order is all about replacing the older 757-200, the last of the 737-500 and some of the older 320's...hopefully a little growth as well.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 8):
Those numbers are only for the firm orders, not options. If they exercise the options, the size of the order I believe doubles.

350 Orders 25 Options 50
787 Orders 50 Options 75

fpetrutiu · Fri May 04, 2012 4:31 pm

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 6):
How will this affect the UA Airbus fleet? Are they aiming to become a Boeing narrow-body customer?

It certainly looks that way, the A320 fleet will retire out eventually and they will be all Boeing NB fleet. Remeber UA calcelled all their A320 orders and options a few years back and in return for Airbus letting them off the A320 hook they bought the 25 A350's.

United727 · Fri May 04, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 10):
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 8):
Those numbers are only for the firm orders, not options. If they exercise the options, the size of the order I believe doubles.

350 Orders 25 Options 50
787 Orders 50 Options 75

Still hoping that UA changes their mind and goes all Boeing. I'm thinking that we'll see a change of heart on the A350 more likely sooner than later in a move to go this way!

windy95 · Fri May 04, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 4):
Already settled, isn't it?

No.

Quoting United1 (Reply 10):
This order is all about replacing the older 757-200, the last of the 737-500 and some of the older 320's...hopefully a little growth as well.

Correct.

kl911 · Fri May 04, 2012 4:45 pm

Nice for Boeing, but what would make UA switch from A320 to 737? Isnt the 320NEO much more fuel efficient then the MAX?

United1 · Fri May 04, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 11):
Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 6):
How will this affect the UA Airbus fleet? Are they aiming to become a Boeing narrow-body customer?

It certainly looks that way, the A320 fleet will retire out eventually and they will be all Boeing NB fleet. Remeber UA calcelled all their A320 orders and options a few years back and in return for Airbus letting them off the A320 hook they bought the 25 A350's.

Check the 10K you might be surprised that UA still holds 42 options on the A320's.

phxa340 · Fri May 04, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting United727 (Reply 12):
I'm thinking that we'll see a change of heart on the A350 more likely sooner than later in a move to go this way!

Pleeeease , don't hijack this thread with the usual UA canceling the A350. A narrowbody Boeing order has ZERO relevelance to a prior widebody Airbus order. Maybe ... just maybe , the A350 is the perfect plane for UA , god forbid it is built in Europe

United727 · Fri May 04, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 16):
Pleeeease , don't hijack this thread with the usual UA canceling the A350.

I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic and refer you to watch this thread Lufthansa Expect 747-8i Improvements From 2014 (by anfromme May 4 2012 in Civil Aviation) &nbsp

fpetrutiu · Fri May 04, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 14):
Nice for Boeing, but what would make UA switch from A320 to 737? Isnt the 320NEO much more fuel efficient then the MAX?

On paper... We'll see when they are both in the air. Also, they are close enough in efficiency to where the other financial/maintenance aspects play a big role. I am thinking the MAX was the better aircraft/deal package for UA's needs.

Quoting United1 (Reply 15):
Check the 10K you might be surprised that UA still holds 42 options on the A320's.

They are exactly that... OPTIONS that will never be taken delivery of.

kgaiflyer · Fri May 04, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 18):
what would make UA switch from A320 to 737?

They used to say, "Try it -- you'll like it."

The Elites have tried the 738 and like it

par13del · Fri May 04, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 14):
Nice for Boeing, but what would make UA switch from A320 to 737?

Same thing that caused them to switch from the 737 to the A320, the OEM did not offer something that the client wanted.
In the previous case the 737 did not have the range of the A320, in the latter case, based on the article which says that they terminated negotiations with Airbus, I would speculate that the client is not receiving the product price they desire, or delivery time table, etc.
In any event, the OEM is not meeting the clients "desires"

N62NA · Fri May 04, 2012 5:20 pm

More evidence that many of us on here will be flying 737s for the rest of our lives.

Stitch · Fri May 04, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 14):
Nice for Boeing, but what would make UA switch from A320 to 737? Isnt the 320NEO much more fuel efficient then the MAX?

That is what Airbus claims.

Boeing claims the MAX will be more efficient than the A320neo.

I expect part of the reason UA is sole-sourcing this from Boeing is slot availability for both the 737NG and the 737 MAX are probably better than they are for the A320 and A320neo.

roseflyer · Fri May 04, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 14):
Nice for Boeing, but what would make UA switch from A320 to 737? Isnt the 320NEO much more fuel efficient then the MAX?

Certainly not much more. There is relative parity between the 737NG and A320. It depends on configuration and operator as to which is more efficient for each airline. Airbus is predicting bigger improvements on the A320NEO vs A320 than Boeing is with the 737MAX vs 737NG, but again depending on configuration and operational factors, the airplanes should be within a few percentage points of each other. I believe any assertions that one is much more efficient than the other is more driven on fanboy rhetoric or marketing than actual operational and realistic factors. Under certain conditions, the 737 or the A320 can come across as much more efficient, but there are a lot of assumptions which make a realistic comparison very difficult for all but the most experienced and knowledgeable analysts.

[Edited 2012-05-04 10:41:14]

drerx7 · Fri May 04, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
I expect part of the reason UA is sole-sourcing this from Boeing is slot availability for both the 737NG and the 737 MAX are probably better than they are for the A320 and A320neo.

And the fact that they already have a larger fleet of 737s doesn't hurt either.

SonomaFlyer · Fri May 04, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
I expect part of the reason UA is sole-sourcing this from Boeing is slot availability for both the 737NG and the 737 MAX are probably better than they are for the A320 and A320neo.

Oh yea and I'm sure they were aggressive in pricing with Boeing.

Quoting United1 (Reply 9):
350 Orders 25 Options 50
787 Orders 50 Options 75

Wow 75 350's and 125 787's are possible.

Stitch · Fri May 04, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 24):
Oh yea and I'm sure they were aggressive in pricing with Boeing.

There have been claims that Boeing undercut Airbus' RFP by 10%.

SonomaFlyer · Fri May 04, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
There have been claims that Boeing undercut Airbus' RFP by 10%.

That'll get UA's attention

On a 100 a/c order, that adds up to some serious coin.

United787 · Fri May 04, 2012 7:51 pm

Has United been unhappy with their A320s? I ask that innocently because of two things: 1) of their previous order that wasn't filled and 2) because they appear to be only talking to Boeing and the order still isn't finalized...I would think most buyers would continue to try and appear to be talking to both manufacturers until the order is done as a negotiating tactic...

milesrich · Fri May 04, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 19):
Same thing that caused them to switch from the 737 to the A320, the OEM did not offer something that the client wanted.
In the previous case the 737 did not have the range of the A320, in the latter case, based on the article which says that they terminated negotiations with Airbus, I would speculate that the client is not receiving the product price they desire, or delivery time table, etc.
In any event, the OEM is not meeting the clients "desires"

Quoting N62NA (Reply 20):
More evidence that many of us on here will be flying 737s for the rest of our lives.

First of all, it's great to see United return to its roots, as Boeing and UAL were originally the same company.
Second, it's great to see United, a US Flag carrier, buy American.
Third, United introduced the 737 to the USA in April of 1968, so it's fitting that almost 50 years later, they will be taking delivery of the latest 737 variant.
Fourth, they bought the A-320 because of the cheap financial package they were offered to do so.
Fifth, United as a reputation for buying airplanes and then using them until they head for the graveyard, the DC-6, DC-8, 727-22, 737-222, 727-222's, 747-122's, etc.
They operated some of the original 737-222's for over 30 years. I wonder how long the new generation will last.

roseflyer · Fri May 04, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 27):
Has United been unhappy with their A320s? I ask that innocently because of two things: 1) of their previous order that wasn't filled and 2) because they appear to be only talking to Boeing and the order still isn't finalized...I would think most buyers would continue to try and appear to be talking to both manufacturers until the order is done as a negotiating tactic...

Airlines aren't happy or unhappy with an entire fleet. There certainly is a laundry list of problems that they are working on. Various maintenance problems. Chronic failures. Engineering Support, etc. It's really an A.net myth that airlines are happy or unhappy with airplanes just as it is that CEOs are the final say on if they order Airbus or Boeing.

UA has had the opportunity to compare costs of the A320 vs 737NG. They know what they are getting into.

1) The order wasn't filled because 9/11 happened and with the service cuts, UA had more planes than they needed. UA stopped all deliveries in 2002. They had too large of a fleet, so they had no need for new planes and were in a capital crunch. That happened with 777s and A320s that they still had on order.

2) I would assume that they have made their decision, but there are still things to wrap up with the contract and more than likely financing before anything can be formally announced.

codc10 · Fri May 04, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
There have been claims that Boeing undercut Airbus' RFP by 10%.

After essentially losing AA and seeing the NEO pick up orders at a faster pace than the MAX, Boeing is a very motivated seller. This does not surprise me at all.

Quoting United787 (Reply 27):
1) of their previous order that wasn't filled

Again, much of this had to do with timing. 9/11 and BK limited the carrier's ability to finance new aircraft orders. Now that they have returned to a stronger financial position, Airbus cannot offer the delivery slots for the NEO that UA needs.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 28):

Fourth, they bought the A-320 because of the cheap financial package they were offered to do so.

In addition to the fact that the 737-400 could not offer transcontinental range. The loss of the UA order was the major impetus to Boeing's launch of the 737NG.

captainstefan · Fri May 04, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 1):
All Boeing new designs should also have it as STANDARD eqipment.

Slightly off topic, but will the MAXs have the 777/767-400 style windows (rounder, higher placed)? Or will they continue to have the more square windows that were used on the NGs?

777ER · Fri May 04, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 31):

I guess the MAX series will include all the current 'standard' designs being used on all the current series, like mood lighting, 787s window shades, 737s sky design and 777s storage bins

roseflyer · Fri May 04, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 32):

I guess the MAX series will include all the current 'standard' designs being used on all the current series, like mood lighting, 787s window shades, 737s sky design and 777s storage bins

I believe the latest revamp of the interior, the Sky Interior, is not expected to change. The 737 already has mood lighting, rounded window reveals, pivot bins, etc.

CO777DAL · Sat May 05, 2012 12:59 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 13):
Nice for Boeing, but what would make UA switch from A320 to 737? Isnt the 320NEO much more fuel efficient then the MAX?

Continental and CO Management

ouboy79 · Sat May 05, 2012 2:00 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 34):
Continental and CO Management

Ding ding ding. People forget who is running the place. Don't be shocked to see all the Airbus aircraft gone eventually and CO...err UA is back to being all Boeing.

LifelinerOne · Sat May 05, 2012 5:19 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):

I've heard the same, but it must be noted that Airbus wasn't able to deliver enough A320NEO's to fit Uniteds timetable. Airbus was, so I heard, willing to lower the price, if United was willing to order a mix of A320OEO and A320NEO's.

Ah well, you win some, you lose some! Nevertheless, congrats to Boeing, United and us aviation enthusiasts. Only A320's or B737's would be boring. We need some diversity!

Cheers!

DocLightning · Sat May 05, 2012 5:21 am

Quoting anfromme (Reply 4):
A total of 50 787-8/-9 and 25 A350-900. Continental ordered about half of the 787s if I remember correctly, and United in 2010 ordered 25 each of the 787 and A350. No major changes planned to this according to Smisek, and I don't think they have another widebody RFP out at this point.

Did they order the same engines on their 787's?

One thing's for sure: We're all going to be flying on 737's and A320's for the next few decades at least.

lightsaber · Sat May 05, 2012 6:01 am

UA negotiated for over six months with Airbus and Boeing. I have no doubt they were able to get a very competitive offer.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
There have been claims that Boeing undercut Airbus' RFP by 10%.

After the AA order, I cannot say I'm that surprised. (It would shake up the customer base to lose another large order.) Airbus would have been less motivate to make a less profitable sale.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 26):
That'll get UA's attention On a 100 a/c order, that adds up to some serious coin.

Come down to Crazy Randy's. You buy a hundred, will give you ten free I tell ya!

I'm sure financing was an issue and GECAS is helping too.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 30):
After essentially losing AA and seeing the NEO pick up orders at a faster pace than the MAX, Boeing is a very motivated seller. This does not surprise me at all.

I would say Boeing/GE as a team are motivated sellers.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 36):
I've heard the same, but it must be noted that Airbus wasn't able to deliver enough A320NEO's to fit Uniteds timetable. Airbus was, so I heard, willing to lower the price, if United was willing to order a mix of A320OEO and A320NEO's.

That is a good point, in particular post the AA order. I've heard that both Boeing and Airbus are offering current generation aircraft with deals to ensure they can go out on moderate length (7 to 10 year) leases to bridge over the initial 'crunch'. For Airbus it is because near term NEO slots are sold (not 100% but enough...). For Boeing, it is to keep early MAX slots open for other orders out for quote while ensure future MAX sales.

I'll be very curious as the distribution of MAX UA purchases. I suspect the bulk will be 737-8 with a good number of 757 replacement 737-9s. If any 737-7? I speculate not. The new engines push the optimal economics to larger airframes. However, part of the deal could be 73G on 7 to 10 year leases.

Lightsaber

anfromme · Sat May 05, 2012 10:48 am

Quoting milesrich (Reply 28):
Fourth, they bought the A-320 because of the cheap financial package they were offered to do so.

Firstly: They also bought it because of the additional range the A320 offered over the 737. Don't forget that losing the United RFP at the time was one of the factors that led Boeing to develop the 737NG. Which just goes to show how the A v B competition has led to better and more efficient airplanes.
Secondly: As Stitch already pointed out, it looks like Boeing is currently the more aggressive OEM in terms of pricing.
Here's something I posted in the now-archived previous thread on the rumoured UA order:

Quoting anfromme (Reply 147 in Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing (by LAXDESI Apr 23 2012 in Civil Aviation)#1):
According to Scott Hamilton at Leeham, price seems to be a major factor. According to Hamilton, "Boeing won Delta Air Lines on the 737-900ER v A321 competition largely on price, we understand%u2013bidding 10% lower than Airbus. We also believe price is likely the determining factor in the soon-to-be-completed United Airlines deal, where Boeing is widely reported to now be the favorite." He also stated that Boeing appears to be more aggressive on price for single-aisles at this point. (Must I even say "here goes another a.net myth"?)

...this had to come up again as well, of course:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 35):
Ding ding ding. People forget who is running the place. Don't be shocked to see all the Airbus aircraft gone eventually and CO...err UA is back to being all Boeing.

A few points on this thought that gets rehashed again and again in different variants.
Firstly, regarding UA in particular: The youngest A32S will still be around for a while in UA in the same way that they didn't get rid of their 737 classics the instant they ordered A32S. Also, they have 25 A350s on order.
Secondly, I think the "CO management" factor is way overplayed on a.net. In the same way that "AA will never buy Airbus again" and "Lufthansa will never buy Boeing again" were. So I really do give zero credit to that line of argument, irrespective of which airline/OEM combination it is applied to.
I pointed this out before: It's not some CEO's desire to have a certain name and type printed on the safety cards that makes or breaks an order. It's numbers that get triple-checked and then checked again by the people that have to come up with the financing.
Same here - by the sounds of it, UA isn't buying MAX because the management just prefers Boeing, but because the package that Boeing offered (prices, slots, etc.) suits them better than the package Airbus was willing to offer. It's called business.

bobnwa · Sat May 05, 2012 11:13 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
There have been claims that Boeing undercut Airbus' RFP by 10%.

Did you see or hear any reliable source to make that statement, or was it just speculation on some forum?

RyanairGuru · Sat May 05, 2012 11:24 am

Quoting anfromme (Reply 39):
I think the "CO management" factor is way overplayed on a.net

Quoting anfromme (Reply 39):
It's not some CEO's desire to have a certain name and type printed on the safety cards that makes or breaks an order. It's numbers that get triple-checked and then checked again by the people that have to come up with the financing.

I'll just add one more thing: the only thing we read more than "CO management in ruining United" is that "Smisek is a bean counter who is only out to please Wall Street and does give two stuffs about paying customers".

If we take the second statement as true for the moment, then why would UA order Boeing just because he is PMCO??? Bethune may have been a Boeing Boy, but the current management will do just about anything to make the bottom line look prettier. If that means ordering Airbus, flying 757s from IAD to CDG or doing handstands then they will.

Stitch · Sat May 05, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 40):
Did you see or hear any reliable source to make that statement, or was it just speculation on some forum?

Leeham.net.

And again, it's not like Boeing is selling them at a loss to win the business.

VC10er · Sat May 05, 2012 7:38 pm

I assume based on some post above that windows stay the same? Given that the 737 nose and eyes are that of a 727 or 707, it must be the most tried and true aero dynamic nose cone!

However the "optics" of the 737 (to me) no matter how much more ar advanced she may be, something has to be said for some visual hints, without 1% compromise to safety or efficiency that she's newer. Can it get 787 cockpit windows or the 787 super large pax windows (was that what was referred to above) OR are we the only ones who can tell the difference from a 738 and an A321?

Last question..once the contract is signed in blood for 100 737's, WHEN do we see one in service?

fpetrutiu · Sat May 05, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 43):
Can it get 787 cockpit windows or the 787 super large pax windows (was that what was referred to above)

I do not think so. I think the larger windows are compliments of the material that the plane is built out of. Adding large windows ala 787, would make the allumium around it weaker, thus more prone to fractures (not quite ala Comet, but you get the picture...).

Quoting VC10er (Reply 43):
OR are we the only ones who can tell the difference from a 738 and an A321?

That I assure you. Most passengers cannot tell the difference, nor do they care.

1337Delta764 · Sat May 05, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 41):
I'll just add one more thing: the only thing we read more than "CO management in ruining United" is that "Smisek is a bean counter who is only out to please Wall Street and does give two stuffs about paying customers".

If we take the second statement as true for the moment, then why would UA order Boeing just because he is PMCO??? Bethune may have been a Boeing Boy, but the current management will do just about anything to make the bottom line look prettier. If that means ordering Airbus, flying 757s from IAD to CDG or doing handstands then they will.

Many seem to make the same argument for Delta buying Airbus since Richard Anderson is CEO. Look where that went when Delta ordered 100 739ERs.

anfromme · Sat May 05, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 43):
are we the only ones who can tell the difference from a 738 and an A321?

With a good bit of training - it made for a conversation topic to distract her from her latent fear of flying - my wife is able to do that as well at this point

767/777 are still a bit more difficult, though, unless they're parked next to each other.
Still, I certainly know how you feel - it would be nice to get some visual clues to the MAX's new-ness so they look at least slightly different from the NG. The new winglets might be just that.

fpetrutiu · Sat May 05, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 46):
The new winglets might be just that.

Chevrons on the engines, nose landing gear, tail cone, winglets... should be enough to identify it easily.

milesrich · Sun May 06, 2012 12:38 am

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 44):
Can it get 787 cockpit windows or the 787 super large pax windows (was that what was referred to above)

I do not think so. I think the larger windows are compliments of the material that the plane is built out of. Adding large windows ala 787, would make the allumium around it weaker, thus more prone to fractures (not quite ala Comet, but you get the picture...).

Quoting VC10er (Reply 43):
OR are we the only ones who can tell the difference from a 738 and an A321?

That I assure you. Most passengers cannot tell the difference, nor do they care.

Are the 787's windows larger than those on the DC-8?

The Comet's problem was more the shape of the window, then the size, as the corners were not rounded enough. F-27 and the Viscount had the really large windows.

anfromme · Sun May 06, 2012 10:11 am

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 47):
Chevrons on the engines, nose landing gear, tail cone, winglets... should be enough to identify it easily.

True - I forgot about the chevrons. They should be easy enough to spot. In the renderings I've seen so far, the tail cone doesn't stand out that much, and we'll have to see how obvious the landing gear change turns out.

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