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Byrdluvs747
Posts: 2552
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:25 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Wed May 09, 2012 11:23 pm

Can anyone speak to whether AA will finally add the external camera views as part of the IFE like EK and others?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
atlflyer
Posts: 761
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:13 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Wed May 09, 2012 11:29 pm

Looks like 9-abreast to me in Y...

45 seats is 5 rows of 9 In Y+ and it's not likely they'd have 10 across in the entire Y cabin so it doesn't matter that 170 is divisible by 10.

Also compare the configuration of Delta's 777s. They fit 43 Business class seats and 230 Y seats. 15 more than what AA is proposing.
 
Alitalia744
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Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Wed May 09, 2012 11:43 pm

Welcome to 2012 AA!

Now fix your employee problems, your brand issues, and maybe the AAttitude and you'll be ok.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
aacun
Posts: 452
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:47 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):

I didnt forget about FC. I work the airplane every week. But BC is going from 7 across to 4 across, so lets say You can probably fit 24-28 seats in the current BC space, so if you are going to go up to 45 seats and then add on top of that a stand up bar in BC, not only will they probably have to use the space currently occupied by FC but go into what is now the coach section aft of BC.
 
IndustryInsider
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:47 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 12:46 am

Quoting brons2 (Reply 36):
How are they going to make sure that the tablets don't depart the plane? How will they charge the tablets? Where will they be kept when not in use? Who's going to troubleshoot the inevitable problems when people can't get on WiFi, or the battery is not charged when they're handed out. How will they make sure that people don't install undesirable apps from the Android Market, (err sorry Google Play Store as they're calling it now),

I used one of these tablets down from DFW to SCL a few weeks ago. I like them a whole hell of a lot better than the previous Fijitsu laptops which were used on the 763, that is for sure. The tablets and Bose headphones are distributed together shortly after take off and collected shortly before landing. To power them, they simply plug into the existing power port which is located in the seat shell in front of you. Each tablet comes with a sleeve which allows the unit to stand on its own or you can simply hold it. I loved it to be honest. Most of the time I simply held it in the position that was most comfortable for me depending on seating position.

These tablets already come configured with AA software specs meaning it doesn't function like a normal Galaxy Tab. You cannot access any of the units settings nor can you access the Google Play Store. You can only access what AA wants you to access (movies, audio etc) and nothing else.

Creating an in seat IFE is a lot more expensive and is a lot harder to certify for an airline. Just think about the extra weight all the wires add to boot. Additionally, what happens when the unit is outdated in 5-10 years? Down the road, an in seat IFE is just plain more expensive than the current route. If you only knew what an airline has to go through to get parts, designs and vendors approved and certified, you would be shocked. There is always a long lead time because of this and is why projects of this scale (777-200) take such a long time to complete.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1129
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 46):
The 77W is rumored to be 8F/50J/30Y+/220Y, but that assumes AA goes with 10-abreast in Y, and no decision has been made (though it's somewhat safe to assume it will be at least 8F/50J/30Y+).

Stop saying no decision has been made.

Lead time for seats is at least 12 months, and since the first delivery is later this year, the seats have been contracted for and are in the process of being built.

Every single document I've seen indicates the 77Ws will be delivered 10 abreast in Y.

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 51):
45 seats is 5 rows of 9 In Y+ and it's not likely they'd have 10 across in the entire Y cabin so it doesn't matter that 170 is divisible by 10.

Main Cabin Extra is at 9 abreast, while Main Cabin is 10.
 
jporterfi
Posts: 509
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:25 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 4:17 am

Quoting erj170 (Reply 4):

Given the nature of the route (long and thin), I wouldn't be surprised if this happens, particularly during periods of lower demand (e.g. non-summer). Of course, it depends on if AA orders enough 787s to warrant putting one on a route that neither originates nor terminates at a hub.
PPC (ASEL) | Aircraft Flown: PA28, C172, DA20
 
chopchop767
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:16 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 10:45 am

Quoting IndustryInsider (Reply 54):
Creating an in seat IFE is a lot more expensive and is a lot harder to certify for an airline. Just think about the extra weight all the wires add to boot. Additionally, what happens when the unit is outdated in 5-10 years? Down the road, an in seat IFE is just plain more expensive than the current route. If you only knew what an airline has to go through to get parts, designs and vendors approved and certified, you would be shocked. There is always a long lead time because of this and is why projects of this scale (777-200) take such a long time to complete.

The seat has a charger out-let, so battery life isn't an issue. Couldn't agree more with the implementation of the tablets as Industry states: Airlines can respond to new technology faster. Any one who disagrees should take a ride from MUC to IAD on one of UA's original 777 cabin interiors in J. Unfortunately, on that route, it's hit or miss for new J, which is actually really comfortable. The old seats, however, are very uncomfortable, the screen is tiny and cabin is surely showing her age. Before long-haul trips, I've taken to renting movies on iTunes for this very reason.

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 2):
F/C was basically a combination of upgrades for a lucky few and an employee cafeteria at 37,000 feet.

HA-HA! YES! I've been on MUC/FRA to IAD on UA and on several occasions, the entire F cabin was employees. Still, surprised to see the First Class on AA go away on the 200ER; surely there are routes where it is needed, or did I miss something on the press release?

Overall, glad to see AA investing in right-sizing their equipment.
this year: nap, lgw, fra, dub, fco, add, jib, muc, iad, sea, dca, bos, cdg, ist, bah, prg, ord, hsv, cmn
 
AAplat4life
Posts: 344
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RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 12:05 pm

I would think that Tokyo and London routes would need F, and that is a pretty good chunk of the AA 772ER fleet right there.

I thought that AA recently announced upgrades to its 772 premium service. Perhaps I'm mistaken, or probably AA realized that those upgrades were not going to make it in the market place. Overall, this sounds like a good move for AA. However, to continue F on the 773ERs does not make a lot of sense for a fleet that will consist of 6 aircraft. AA may add a few more, but still it will not be a big fleet.
 
commavia
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Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 58):
I would think that Tokyo and London routes would need F, and that is a pretty good chunk of the AA 772ER fleet right there.

I suspect you'll see F on a few LHR flights, but most will just move to the expanded, upgraded J product. If there is still latent F demand in particular LHR-U.S. markets that AA cannot serve with its own metal, it can put those people onto the BA JV/ATI flights.

I fully expect those outstanding 772 orders to be converted to 77Ws, which, if my math serves me correctly, would yield a 77W fleet of 16 aircraft.

I could see those 16 F-configured 77W aircraft being configured thus:

DFW-GRU (1.5, tied to DFW-NRT)
DFW-HKG (2)
DFW-LHR (1, flight 50/51, leaving 78/79 as a JY 772)
DFW-NRT (1.5, tied to DFW-GRU)
JFK-LHR (1, only 100/101, leaving the rest as JY 772s)
MIA-EZE (2, only 943/900, leaving 909/908 as a JY 772)
MIA-JNB (2)
MIA-LHR (1, winter seasonal)
ORD-LHR (1, summer seasonal, leaving the rest as JY 772s)
ORD-NRT (2)

... plus 1 operational spare.

Everything else that now sees a 777 could keep it, albeit sans F, plus I could see the 777s displaced from operating some of the above existing routes being used in some other international markets like MIA-GIG, DFW-CDG, JFK-CDG, MIA-MAD, etc., and possibly even opening up some new markets like DFW-ICN and in some parallel universe even JFK-TLV.
 
LY777
Posts: 2587
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 12:51 pm

So, the 763s will keep the same awful Y class?!

BTW, once the 787s are delivered, do you believe AA will use them on the MIA-CDG route?
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
mogandoCI
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Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 1:42 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 59):
DFW-GRU (1.5, tied to DFW-NRT)
DFW-HKG (2)
DFW-LHR (1, flight 50/51, leaving 78/79 as a JY 772)
DFW-NRT (1.5, tied to DFW-GRU)
JFK-LHR (1, only 100/101, leaving the rest as JY 772s)
MIA-EZE (2, only 943/900, leaving 909/908 as a JY 772)
MIA-JNB (2)
MIA-LHR (1, winter seasonal)
ORD-LHR (1, summer seasonal, leaving the rest as JY 772s)
ORD-NRT (2)

MIA-GRU doesn't deserve F ?

ORD-LHR/NRT deserves F but not LAX-LHR/NRT ?
 
chopchop767
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:16 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 58):
However, to continue F on the 773ERs does not make a lot of sense for a fleet that will consist of 6 aircraft. AA may add a few more, but still it will not be a big fleet.

The NYT had an interesting, albeit a little dated, glimpse of the revenue generated by First and Business Class cabins:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...eats-and-revenue.html?ref=business

In the examples they used, while AF's F and J only account for 21% of the seats, they calculated that it generated 63% of the revenue. Of course, that's assuming that these flights had PAYING customers in those cabins as opposed to upgrades. My suspicion would be that AA's upgrade policy tends to bring these numbers down a bit. But, keeping a small fleet with F to LHR or NRT might make $ sense for them, as opposed to all of their 777s.
this year: nap, lgw, fra, dub, fco, add, jib, muc, iad, sea, dca, bos, cdg, ist, bah, prg, ord, hsv, cmn
 
laca773
Posts: 2093
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:10 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 59):

I could see those 16 F-configured 77W aircraft being configured thus:

DFW-GRU (1.5, tied to DFW-NRT)
DFW-HKG (2)
DFW-LHR (1, flight 50/51, leaving 78/79 as a JY 772)
DFW-NRT (1.5, tied to DFW-GRU)
JFK-LHR (1, only 100/101, leaving the rest as JY 772s)
MIA-EZE (2, only 943/900, leaving 909/908 as a JY 772)
MIA-JNB (2)
MIA-LHR (1, winter seasonal)
ORD-LHR (1, summer seasonal, leaving the rest as JY 772s)
ORD-NRT (2)

... plus 1 operational spare.

Commavia,

Missing from your list is:
LAX-NRT
LAX-LHR.
I think both of these routes could easily be flown with 77W, though perhaps you're thinking the BA JV is better off handling the P cabin.
JL generally flies LAX-NRT with a 77E and not the 77W. If AA has the demand in this market for paid P class, then this should be a given market for 77W.

Quoting chopchop767 (Reply 62):
In the examples they used, while AF's F and J only account for 21% of the seats, they calculated that it generated 63% of the revenue. Of course, that's assuming that these flights had PAYING customers in those cabins as opposed to upgrades. My suspicion would be that AA's upgrade policy tends to bring these numbers down a bit. But, keeping a small fleet with F to LHR or NRT might make $ sense for them, as opposed to all of their 777s.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't AF like the rest of the EU carriers in the that, they don't hand out upgrades. They have to be paid for if one wants to upgrade from W to J and J to P?
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 63):
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't AF like the rest of the EU carriers in the that, they don't hand out upgrades. They have to be paid for if one wants to upgrade from W to J and J to P?

Can't speak for AF or SQ, but I know someone who's top tier at BA (the tier that qualifies Concorde Room), and they frequently hand him free upgrade to F even though he's booked in J.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 63):
Commavia,

Missing from your list is:
LAX-NRT
LAX-LHR.
I think both of these routes could easily be flown with 77W, though perhaps you're thinking the BA JV is better off handling the P cabin.
JL generally flies LAX-NRT with a 77E and not the 77W. If AA has the demand in this market for paid P class, then this should be a given market for 77W.

They aren't "missing" from my predictions - I intentionally omitted them. I may well be wrong, but by my estimation, if AA does - indeed - intend to grow post-bankruptcy, including using their 77Ws to expand their international presence, then AA has higher priorities for their very scarce F-configured jets than LAX-NRT and LAX-LHR, both of which are markets where any F demand that exists can be handled by partners with arguable as-good or better F products to begin with.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5198
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 4:52 pm

First question is what is AA's plans for service to LHR? The vast majority of flights are with 3-class 772s. BA has 3-classes on its U.S-LHR flights (777 or 747). Is this a sign that the 772 departures to LHR will shift to 773s and over time, 789s?

Quoting ghifty (Reply 6):
I find the "we're the only airline to offer personal Samsung Galaxy Tabs" bit to be annoying, as well. That might wow most of the general public, but it really just shows that they're too cheap to invest in a "true" in-seat IFE system.

There are 2 problems with in-seat IFE systems. First, they add weight. If a portable system adds less weight to an aircarft than in-seat IFE, then maybe being "cheap" makes sense, between the high price of jet fuel and the ability to carry more cargo.

Second, usually the IFE takes space under the seat. I have a carry-on that fits nicely under the seat of an MD-80, but it requires some brute strength to get it under the seat of a 757 or 738, because the equipment for the IFE juts into the space for underseat storage. People have told me that on planes such as the 767, 777, and A330, it's surprising how much underseat storage the IFE robs.
 
blink182
Posts: 5370
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting chopchop767 (Reply 57):
Still, surprised to see the First Class on AA go away on the 200ER; surely there are routes where it is needed, or did I miss something on the press release?

I realize that this has been answered a bit, especially by Commavia, but my best guess is that AA feels their new C product will be sufficient to cover for some of the paid F traffic. I suspect that most F traffic on AA is not full fare, hence the decision to get rid of of the product.

Also, lets not lose perspective that while AA will be taking out F, they are implementing a product nearly identical (?) to CX's C product that has gotten rave reviews; I'm not sure premium pax are getting screwed over on the hard product. If AA wanted to on select flights, they could even offer the F turndown service. Nothing scientific, but I've been on these forums long enough to remember how outraged people were several years ago when AA hyped up its now current C class with promises of innovation and new design only to unveil a product that many airlines at the time had either been using or were nearing retirement of. For the newly introduced C product that is being discussed here, I noticed that this website's reaction was much more positive.
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting blink182 (Reply 67):
my best guess is that AA feels their new C product will be sufficient to cover for some of the paid F traffic.

Yep. AA feels they can capture most of the paid premium traffic in their upgraded J, with any lingering F demand to Europe/Asia being put onto BA's or JAL's planes.

Quoting blink182 (Reply 67):
Also, lets not lose perspective that while AA will be taking out F, they are implementing a product nearly identical (?) to CX's C product that has gotten rave reviews; I'm not sure premium pax are getting screwed over on the hard product.

Exactly. What this will hurt most is upgrades. For paid longhaul premium customers, the new J seat looks nearly as good as AA's existing Flagship Suite F product, and certainly as good if not better than any J product AA's main U.S. (and frankly even in most cases international) competitors offer.
 
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usxguy
Posts: 1921
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RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 6:08 pm

Y+ will be 9 across and Y will be 10 - AA will then use this as a selling point to state "more legroom, more width" as a way to jab at United.

But what they won't tell you is that 9 across is the current "standard".

I'm begging/praying that United/Delta do NOT follow thru and do 10 across.
xx
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 6:09 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
That said, absolutely I'm sure AA is considering 10 abreast. It would be stupid not too.
Quoting sxf24 (Reply 55):
Every single document I've seen indicates the 77Ws will be delivered 10 abreast in Y.

I think it would be a mistake to be the first 777 operator in North America with 10-abreast. Would encourage passengers to switch to the competition which isn't what you want to do when trying to exit bankruptcy. And in my experience Americans tend to be larger on average than most other nationalities, making 10-abreast even less desirable.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 66):
There are 2 problems with in-seat IFE systems. First, they add weight.

Second, usually the IFE takes space under the seat. I

And third, they're very maintenance-intensive. I've rarely been on a flight where the IFE system works perfectly at all seats.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 69):
I'm begging/praying that United/Delta do NOT follow thru and do 10 across.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 70):
I think it would be a mistake to be the first 777 operator in North America with 10-abreast. Would encourage passengers to switch to the competition which isn't what you want to do when trying to exit bankruptcy.

I share the dread at 10-abreast Y, as it seems that is the way AA is likely going. But, if AA "gets away" with it and doesn't face a massive market backlash, I don't think Delta and United will have any choice but to match. Making the planes that dense is going to drive the CASM so low that it will give AA a substantial cost advantage.
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 65):
then AA has higher priorities for their very scarce F-configured jets than LAX-NRT and LAX-LHR, both of which are markets where any F demand that exists can be handled by partners with arguable as-good or better F products to begin with.

That only leaves GRU/EZE and MAD. Every other route has BA, JL, and CX, which all have superior F.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 26565
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 70):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
That said, absolutely I'm sure AA is considering 10 abreast. It would be stupid not too.
Quoting sxf24 (Reply 55):
Every single document I've seen indicates the 77Ws will be delivered 10 abreast in Y.

I think it would be a mistake to be the first 777 operator in North America with 10-abreast. Would encourage passengers to switch to the competition which isn't what you want to do when trying to exit bankruptcy. And in my experience Americans tend to be larger on average than most other nationalities, making 10-abreast even less desirable.

I think it's unfortunate, but it's the direction we are headed in. It hasn't hurt Air France, Emirates, etc. and it won't hurt American. It won't be long before United and Delta Air Lines join in.

Quoting commavia (Reply 68):
Exactly. What this will hurt most is upgrades. For paid longhaul premium customers, the new J seat looks nearly as good as AA's existing Flagship Suite F product, and certainly as good if not better than any J product AA's main U.S. (and frankly even in most cases international) competitors offer.

With no F cabin, the J seats in the 772 will actually be even nicer than the 77W J seats. It's actually not going to be the same seat. AA is rumored to be going for an out there "next generation" product with the 772 J.
a.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 73):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 70):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
That said, absolutely I'm sure AA is considering 10 abreast. It would be stupid not too.
Quoting sxf24 (Reply 55):
Every single document I've seen indicates the 77Ws will be delivered 10 abreast in Y.

I think it would be a mistake to be the first 777 operator in North America with 10-abreast. Would encourage passengers to switch to the competition which isn't what you want to do when trying to exit bankruptcy. And in my experience Americans tend to be larger on average than most other nationalities, making 10-abreast even less desirable.

I think it's unfortunate, but it's the direction we are headed in. It hasn't hurt Air France, Emirates, etc. and it won't hurt American. It won't be long before United and Delta Air Lines join in.

Not sure it hasn't hurt AF. Their 10-abreast 777s could be a factor for their very poor recent financial performance. Although load factors are high the 10-abreast configuration may result in lower yields compared to carriers like BA with more civilized 9-abreast configurations. Many companies now require their employees to fly in Y and they're much more likely to be aware of the differences, and they usually pay the highest less-restrictive fares.
 
blink182
Posts: 5370
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 72):
That only leaves GRU/EZE and MAD.

I can't speak for GRU/EZE, but looking at IB, their widebodies are Y-heavy with smaller C sections up front that may indicate MAD doesn't need a F cabin. To the best of my knowledge, AA does not fly their premium-heavy 77E, which has I believe nearly equal Y seat capacity to the 763, to MAD. I could see MAD among the first destinations and DFW-MAD among the first routes to go from 763 to two-class 77E.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 69):

Y+ will be 9 across and Y will be 10 - AA will then use this as a selling point to state "more legroom, more width" as a way to jab at United.

--To which UA would reply "ALL of our seats are 9 abreast," but they'd do it in cheeky-CO language.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 70):
And in my experience Americans tend to be larger on average than most other nationalities, making 10-abreast even less desirable.

Fair observation and a good one, but AF, KL, EK, and EY all fly 10-abreast 777s to the US and pax just deal with it. I don't know whether they like it, but they deal with it. AA has never been one to care much for the occasional Y-traveler, so I don't think AA would even listen to a bunch of low-yield vacationers complaining about this. Now, if AA's Exec Plats get angry and flee to UA and DL, maybe then AA would do something, but those pax will likely be in MCE at a minimum.
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
klkla
Posts: 852
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Thu May 10, 2012 11:50 pm

AA is saying up to 45 Y+ seats. 9 (abreast) x 5 (rows) equals 45. Doesn't that seem to imply they will stay with 2-5-2 (or 3-3-3) ?
 
Byrdluvs747
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:25 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Fri May 11, 2012 12:38 am

Quote:
Tomorrow we’ll give you a sneak peek into the future of American Airlines. What do you think it is? Dream big!

Ok if I'm to dream big, I will predict a 748i order.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
boilerla
Posts: 421
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:30 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Fri May 11, 2012 4:28 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 73):
I think it's unfortunate, but it's the direction we are headed in. It hasn't hurt Air France, Emirates, etc. and it won't hurt American. It won't be long before United and Delta Air Lines join in.

I think that depends on what United and Delta are operating in 10 years since UA isn't going to reconfigure their 772s before they retire them. UA selected the 787 to replace the 763s and 764s, and the A350 to replace the 744, but didn't order enough of either--even with options--to replace all the 772s in addition to the other widebodies.

If UA uses either the 787-10X or A359 to replace the 772s, they will not need 10 abreast seating since both the 787 and A359 don't have it. IMHO 10-abreast in the 777 will be worse than 9-abreast in the 787, simply because of the better experience the 787 will provide, but I've obviously yet been able to judge.
 
whappeh
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:47 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Fri May 11, 2012 3:50 pm

http://www.cntraveler.com/daily-trav...s-class-first-class-photos#slide=1

Just pointing out that (and the comments in the article also point out) that it is identical to US Airways Envoy product. Something to ponder.   
-Travel now, journey infinitely.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3636
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Fri May 11, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting klkla (Reply 76):
AA is saying up to 45 Y+ seats. 9 (abreast) x 5 (rows) equals 45. Doesn't that seem to imply they will stay with 2-5-2 (or 3-3-3) ?

For Y+. But that doesn't mean they won't go 10 across in straight cattle class.
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Fri May 11, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 80):
Quoting klkla (Reply 76):
AA is saying up to 45 Y+ seats. 9 (abreast) x 5 (rows) equals 45. Doesn't that seem to imply they will stay with 2-5-2 (or 3-3-3) ?

For Y+. But that doesn't mean they won't go 10 across in straight cattle class.

Multiple blog/posts at Flyertalk, BoardingArea.com and Twitter has confirmed 3-4-3, apparently from AA directly :

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/viewfr...-10-across-in-coach-on-their-777s/

https://twitter.com/#!/hharteveldt/status/200267948663914496

http://crankyflier.com/2012/05/10/am...CrankyFlier+%28The+Cranky+Flier%29

There's no more Y. There's only Y+ and Y-.
 
UAL727NE
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:58 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Fri May 11, 2012 5:35 pm

So I just read on thier Facebook that it is 3-4-3 and the 77E will follow suit. So yes it is going to be alil cramped in there. Source is a comment AA replied to on thier page.
Gotta love 3 holers!!! MD11,DC10,L-1011,B727 for life!!!!
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:47 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Fri May 11, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting UAL727NE (Reply 82):

Just read the same. While not surprising, it is disappointing.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
AKLDELNonstop
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:04 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Fri May 11, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 81):

While it is certainly less comfortable than a 3-3-3 config., it makes sense to do it from an economical perspective. At today's fuel prices, any additional revenue helps. That said, from a customer perspective, there are two things that could actually make this a positive move:

1. The loss of the dreaded middle seat in the 2-5-2 config
2. The introduction of next generation seats with USB ports, nice IFE screen etc. which IMO should happen judging by their choice of the new J seat.

Also it will be interesting to see two actual numbers for 1) increase in legroom and 2) decrease in seat width
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 3150
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Fri May 11, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting whappeh (Reply 79):

As already mentioned, comparing the US Cirrus seat (Chevy), to the AA Cirrus seat (BMW), is disingenuous. What I do wonder, since they are the same basic design, how is the window viewing? The window seats seem awfully far from the windows.

I'm disappointed that AA will move to a 3-4-3 in Y, but I can't say I'm surprised. We're in a different era now, and CASM is very important.

As far as F, I've always loved that AA was one of two US airlines to offer F, but I suppose that won't really change. The Flagship product will live on, and if they do decide to put it on the 787, which all indications point to, by the time they've received most of their 787s they'll actually have more aircraft with F than they do currently with their ~50 77E (assuming they don't have a subfleet of Dreamliners with F, which is certainly a possibility).

Overall, I feel very optimistic for the company's product. AA is really doing a good job to reinvent themselves from a passenger perspective. But it remains that the biggest hurdle to profitability is fixing their labor issues.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
laca773
Posts: 2093
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:10 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Sat May 12, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 65):
They aren't "missing" from my predictions - I intentionally omitted them. I may well be wrong, but by my estimation, if AA does - indeed - intend to grow post-bankruptcy, including using their 77Ws to expand their international presence, then AA has higher priorities for their very scarce F-configured jets than LAX-NRT and LAX-LHR, both of which are markets where any F demand that exists can be handled by partners with arguable as-good or better F products to begin with.

I had a feeling you were thinking along these lines and this makes good sense, Commavia.

Quoting commavia (Reply 71):
I share the dread at 10-abreast Y, as it seems that is the way AA is likely going. But, if AA "gets away" with it and doesn't face a massive market backlash, I don't think Delta and United will have any choice but to match. Making the planes that dense is going to drive the CASM so low that it will give AA a substantial cost advantage.

USE
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 73):

I think it's unfortunate, but it's the direction we are headed in. It hasn't hurt Air France, Emirates, etc. and it won't hurt American. It won't be long before United and Delta Air Lines join in.

Honestly, I don't see this 10 abreast going as well for AA or any other US airline like it does for AF, EK, and etc.. In the US, passengers, are much more hefty than in other parts of the world. It's not like flying 10 abreast on a 74X. I don't see this working out well for anyone.
 
atlflyer
Posts: 761
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:13 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Sat May 12, 2012 4:57 pm

Once the word gets out I'm sure Delta and UA will advertise that their 777s have one less seat per row than AA's. And both Delta and UA have new Economy seats so it's not like they will rush to add another seat.
I'll avoid AA 777s...
 
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TVNWZ
Posts: 2309
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Sat May 12, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 87):
Once the word gets out I'm sure Delta and UA will advertise that their 777s have one less seat per row than AA's.

Yes, until DL and UA can cram in another seat. If AA can make it work, the others will be right behind. Nobody wants to leave $$ on the table.
 
klkla
Posts: 852
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Sat May 12, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 85):
As already mentioned, comparing the US Cirrus seat (Chevy), to the AA Cirrus seat (BMW), is disingenuous.

Why? It's the same seat!
 
User avatar
vegas005
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:25 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Sun May 13, 2012 6:35 am

Not starting till 2014...yawn. Wake me when they have a real product installed.
 
whappeh
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:47 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Sun May 13, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting klkla (Reply 89):
Why? It's the same seat!

Yeah, isn't US's seat the same seat used by CX as well?
-Travel now, journey infinitely.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 5967
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Sun May 13, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting whappeh (Reply 91):
Yeah, isn't US's seat the same seat used by CX as well?

Yep, as well as the new flat-bed seats on DL's 744s and soon on the A330s (although DL's are made by Weber instead of Sicma).
 
AAIL86
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Sun May 13, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting klkla (Reply 89):
Why? It's the same seat!

Toyota also manufactures Lexus, does that mean they are the same? From all accounts this a is premium version of that seat.
" Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness ... Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. ” - Mark Twain, 1869
 
klkla
Posts: 852
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Sun May 13, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 93):
From all accounts this a is premium version of that seat.

Premium in what way? They're all basically the same seat. Also, what accounts? The opinion of AA fanboys?

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 93):
Toyota also manufactures Lexus, does that mean they are the same?

A better analogy 'might' be between Corolla L and LE (Same model with different trim).
 
ZaphodB
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:56 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Sun May 13, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 93):
Toyota also manufactures Lexus, does that mean they are the same?

In the case of the Lexus ES, basically yes. Its a Camry V6 with some naff looking plastic wood trim and has worse ride and road noise than the Camry because of the 17" wheels.
 
AAIL86
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Mon May 14, 2012 2:48 am

Quoting ZaphodB (Reply 95):

In the case of the Lexus ES, basically yes. Its a Camry V6 with some naff looking plastic wood trim and has worse ride and road noise than the Camry because of the 17" wheels.
Quoting klkla (Reply 94):
Premium in what way? They're all basically the same seat. Also, what accounts? The opinion of AA fanboys?

Well I guess we'll just have to see if the extra money AA paid for the "premium" version was a worthwhile investment, won't we?  
" Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness ... Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. ” - Mark Twain, 1869
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Mon May 14, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 70):
I think it would be a mistake to be the first 777 operator in North America with 10-abreast. Would encourage passengers to switch to the competition which isn't what you want to do when trying to exit bankruptcy. And in my experience Americans tend to be larger on average than most other nationalities, making 10-abreast even less desirable.

I'm a big fan of AA, but if I'm flying economy across the pond - I'm either flying UA or BA now. At least with UA, I can upgrade to their Y+ for a nominal price - which so far doesn't appear to be possible with AA's new scheme(full fare Y ticket or elite status only). I'm surely not going to pay more for what AA used to offer as standard product.
PHX based
 
ldvaviation
Posts: 1266
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:21 pm

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Mon May 14, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting klkla (Reply 89):
Why? It's the same seat!

The basic platform is the same, but beyond that the differences are remarkable.

The Cathay seat has more actuators, one that allows the seat to track forward. This ability to track forward allowed Cathy to sculpt the seat shell in such a way that it provides for more privacy in the middle seats, hence the more sculpted look of the Cathay shell.

AA's version of the seat will have an additional actuator to control the headrest.

From an aesthetic standpoint, every finish on the Cathay seat was carefully selected and the surfaces finishes vary from the exterior to the interior of the shell. Discerning passengers will notice these things. The US and Delta versions of the seat do not have anywhere near the attention to detail of the Cathay seat. Those two seats are as plastic as they come.

Overall, Cathay sought through the design of their seat to make it seem like a high-end piece of furniture. That explains the wingback appearance of the seat itself and the storage compartments for shoes and headphones.

Cathay worked with JPA London on customizing the Sicma Cirrus seat for its use. AA has been working with the same design firm since last year on its new premium concepts. With JPA, AA is apparently developing a different, totally custom seat for the 772. It will not be the same seat, but the cabin itself will have the same color and trim concepts already evident in AA's version of the Cathay Cirrus seat.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 5967
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product

Mon May 14, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 98):
Cathay worked with JPA London on customizing the Sicma Cirrus seat for its use. AA has been working with the same design firm since last year on its new premium concepts. With JPA, AA is apparently developing a different, totally custom seat for the 772. It will not be the same seat, but the cabin itself will have the same color and trim concepts already evident in AA's version of the Cathay Cirrus seat.

Will the seats be made by Sicma (who made them for CX and US) or will they be made by Weber (who made them for DL)?

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