Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

brilondon · Fri May 11, 2012 2:11 am

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 34):
According to what they've said, they are leaning towards single supplier/aircraft category. EMB190 cannot be considered equal to the 737 in no wasy shape or form, so I would say they are a whole another story, and not part of this discussion..

Would UA buy these aircraft and put them with United Express or are there issues with the pilot agreements to prevent this from happening?

BlueSky1976 · Fri May 11, 2012 2:17 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 44):
I don't see why a 314 seat airplane can replace a 374 seat airplane.

To keep the same number of F and J seats while reducing Y seats. A350s were purchased with that purpose in mind.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 46):
I'm still puzzled as to why UA didn't order the 77W, which has thus far proved to be a great replacement/complement to the 747.

AFAIK United was specifically asking for the "next generation" widebody. At that time, 777X was not on the horizon yet and the 787 turned out to be too small as the 747 replacement.

kgaiflyer · Fri May 11, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 45):
I don't believe CO did buy new MD80's

They must have -- I've flown on them.
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Quoting FX1816 (Reply 45):
the DC-10's, DC-9's and MD-80's.

I forgot about the DC-10s even though I've flown on them.
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kgaiflyer · Fri May 11, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting BigB (Reply 47):
CO never bought MD-80s, A-300s. CO acquired the MD-80s via mergers with Frontier Airlines and the A300s were a result of Frankie transferring assets from EA to CO before EA went bye bye. After Gordon, took over, CO made a huge effort to streamline its fleet down to 737s, 757/767s, and 777s.

The point being -- the adage of Continental having historically been an all-Boeing airline is a myth.

catiii · Fri May 11, 2012 2:26 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 52):
I don't believe CO did buy new MD80's

They must have -- I've flown on them.

I think what he means though is that they came on the property indirectly via an acquisition of another carrier who was operating them. CO didn't order them new directly from McDonnell Douglas.

gigneil · Fri May 11, 2012 2:29 am

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 34):
According to what they've said, they are leaning towards single supplier/aircraft category.

Prove it. I think you made that up.

NS

cbphoto · Fri May 11, 2012 2:36 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 50):
Would UA buy these aircraft and put them with United Express or are there issues with the pilot agreements to prevent this from happening?

Nope, currently scope requirements would require the E190s to be flown under mainline United. The most seats express can fly is ~70 seats (not sure the exact count)

FX1816 · Fri May 11, 2012 3:09 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 54):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 52):I don't believe CO did buy new MD80's

They must have -- I've flown on them.
I think what he means though is that they came on the property indirectly via an acquisition of another carrier who was operating them. CO didn't order them new directly from McDonnell Douglas.

Exactly what I did say, thank you! If he had read my whole post I even mentioned where CO eventually disposed of the MD80's. I believe CO only acquired them via Frontier and New York Air.

FX1816

thebatman · Fri May 11, 2012 4:48 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 43):
Then why on earth did Continental buy (1) DC-9s (2) MD-80s and (3) Airbus A300s ?

I was talking about two different airplanes serving the same purpose. I really would not call a DC-9 and an MD-80 two different airplanes. One is just a stretched version of the other. The A300 does not serve the same purpose as a DC-9. I said that having both A and B in your fleet isn't a bad thing as long as you have commonality. 737-7/8/9 for your narrowbody fleet and A330/350/380 for widebodies. -OR- A319/320/321 and 777/787/747-8.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 43):
I get the impression a.netters think UA is really WN

I can't see how anyone could possibly compare these two airlines.

AADC10 · Fri May 11, 2012 5:44 pm

CO went all Boeing because after emerging from multiple trips through Ch. 11 CO had by far the worst credit in the industry at the time and Boeing was willing to help finance the planes if CO went exclusive. McDonnell Douglas was in bad shape after their struggles with the DC-10 and other things and could not afford to cut deals. Airbus was hounded by complaints of subsidies so it was difficult for them to swing a financing deal. I doubt CO would go all Boeing because they love Boeing. They went with the best deal.

UA of course was even more closely tied to Boeing having been divested in an anti-trust breakup. PMUA still had a preference for its former owner as well as other Boeing spin offs like P&W. When it had to, UA would go to DC-3s, DC-8s, DC-10s and A320s because they were the best aircraft available at the time for their mission.

UA/CO will ultimately go with the best deal but if it is close, they will prefer Boeing. After AA's split order, Boeing does not want to split with Airbus again as it did with UA's widebody order and will make a deal.

Personally, I like the additional room in the A320 but the 737 is not different enough so that I would chose another airline to avoid it.

FX1816 · Fri May 11, 2012 6:37 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 59):
I doubt CO would go all Boeing because they love Boeing. They went with the best deal.

I believe you are wrong given that Bethune worked for Boeing in the commercial aircraft division there was no doubt where the orders would go.

Per wikipedia,

In 1984, Bethune earned a Bachelor of Science degree from Abilene Christian University. He went on to serve as Vice President and General Manager of The Boeing Company's Customer Services Division and later the Renton Division where he was responsible for production of the B737 and B757 airplanes. In that role he launched the new NextGen B737-700 and 737-800 airplanes.

FX1816

strfyr51 · Fri May 11, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 42):

I didn't rant but you're skirts are showing as you've got some personal preference for Airbus while I do NOT. I know what I'm talking about and have the experience to back up what I say in the event you'd like to debate the issue. And I happen to BE a UAL employee with TRAINING on BOTH Airbus and Boeing. So I believe I MIGHT have an advantage unless you;re the chief Tech officer at Airbus and then I might have a FEW bones to pick with you about why you did what you did with certian systems and their operational aspects

AirbusA6 · Fri May 11, 2012 7:25 pm

Maybe UA and LH should have a swap, and thus produce the perfect result for A and B fanboys.

LH gets the A350s and a nice harmonised European long haul fleet and loses the 'commercial flop' 748i.

UA gets the 748is, and thus loses the nasty European widebodies, and as a bonus gets new 747s instead of the A359s which are clearly 'too small' and not a proper 744 replacement.

Sorted?

tommy767 · Fri May 11, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 59):

Personally, I like the additional room in the A320 but the 737 is not different enough so that I would chose another airline to avoid it.

Depends on the airline, honestly.

The UA 738s are not nearly as comfortable as AA's or DL's. The UA 320s are more comfortable than a DL 320. It just all depends.

lhcvg · Fri May 11, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 63):
The UA 738s are not nearly as comfortable as AA's or DL's. The UA 320s are more comfortable than a DL 320. It just all depends.

That's interesting - is that just due to seating configuration and choice of seat vendor?

tommy767 · Fri May 11, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 64):

Seats are pretty tight and they aren't very comfortable. Ditto the 739

nws2002 · Fri May 11, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 60):
I believe you are wrong given that Bethune worked for Boeing in the commercial aircraft division there was no doubt where the orders would go.

The orders went to Boeing because Bethune was able to twist arms and obtain a good deal due to his connections there.

brilondon · Sat May 12, 2012 2:52 am

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 42):
Your rant is going to cause some serious flaming buddy. I would just delete it

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 40):
I didn't believe THEN nor do I believe NOW that the A350-xxx will be superior to ANYTHING Boeing builds.. It's just another Twin Widebody solely built to keep Boeing "on their toes". As was the A320, A330,.A340, and the A380.

All your rants against Airbus are gettting tired and old. Your posts never make any sense and you always start and A v B war.

His rant and anybody else's either right or wrong should not be deleted, as you would wish. Just because he has an opinion that you don't like does not mean it should not be heard. BTW this thread by just being allowed to continue was obviously going to become an A vs. B Thread. Also I wish you would spell check your posts before you post them.

I much prefer Boeing to Airbus for their long haul aircraft but I have an leaning towards Airbus for their short haul aircraft. Personally I like the old mad-dogs for short haul as they always had a classic look to them with character that is missing from Airbus.

strfyr51 · Sat May 12, 2012 3:51 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 63):

It depends on what?? With the UAL 737's getting economy plus is it the legroom the hip room or the onboard TV??
The roomiest single aisle was the DC8. the A320/A319 comes close though the 737's cramped feeling might come from the window seat sidewall where the Curve of the fuselage cramps the shoulders and the window position seems lower. than the Airbus. because the seat is barely 1 inch wider Delta's aft galley position seems to feel cramped if you're seated aft of the galley and that Raft in the overhead does little to make it roomier. The A320's can come with slide rafts mounted on the door to eliminate that raft bin inside the cabin but the 737's doors would need redesign which is something I hope they intend to correct on the 737 Max as they can use the B757 door that will mount slide rafts

milesrich · Sat May 12, 2012 5:31 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 59):
UA of course was even more closely tied to Boeing having been divested in an anti-trust breakup. PMUA still had a preference for its former owner as well as other Boeing spin offs like P&W. When it had to, UA would go to DC-3s, DC-8s, DC-10s and A320s because they were the best aircraft available at the time for their mission.

United was a Douglas customer after over committing to the B-247 and not receiving DC-3's until a year after AA and TW had them in service. But after that, United was Douglas's best customer. The DC-4 was developed at their behest, and the first prototype was only flown by UA. United purchased more DC-6/DC-6B/DC-6A than any other carrier and introduced the DC-6 with AA. While the DC-7 was developed per an AA request, UA bought 57 copies. United did not order any Boeing 307's, and only a handful or so of B-377's for their Hawaii routes, and then when the DC-7 came along, dumped the Stratocruiser for the DC-7. I don't think UA ever seriously considered the B-707 but went with Douglas, a firm that had been successful with airliners where Boeing had not been. Then after the 707 was widened, and die was cast, UA did order the 720, but only after flirting with if not actually ordering the CV-880, when Boeing promised earlier delivery dates, and because of engine commonality with the DC-8. Once Pat Patterson retired, then the Douglas relationship was not as close, hence UA waiting for the 737-200 rather than purchasing DC-9's, probably not the greatest decision they ever made, as they sold off more than half their 737-222 fleet in the first ten years of ownership. No aircraft like the 727 was offered by Douglas and UA and EA were the launch carriers for the three holer. When it came to the trijet jumbo, UA went with MDD as they had no relationship or history with Lockheed except for a few L-18 Lodestars that they flew in the 40's and were dissatisfied with.

When UA purchased the A-320, they got a great price on the purchase, and Boeing did not really have a competitive aircraft.

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