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DocLightning
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767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 4:25 am

Was volunteering vaccinating dogs on Hunters Point when at about 1PM a 777 in what appeared to be DL colors flew over dumping fuel. Never seen that from the ground before.

What was going on?
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Amwest2United
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767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 4:37 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Was volunteering vaccinating dogs on Hunters Point when at about 1PM a 777 in what appeared to be DL colors flew over dumping fuel. Never seen that from the ground before.

What was going on?

Looks like DL 209 SFO-NRT, but it looks like it was a B767-300
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DocLightning
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767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 5:39 am

So it appears it was. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL209

I've asked the mods to change the title of the thread accordingly.

Anyone know what happened?
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gigneil
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767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 5:46 am

Do DL's 763s even have fuel dump capability? Most 767s don't, if I am not mistaken.

NS
 
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DocLightning
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767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 5:52 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 3):

Do DL's 763s even have fuel dump capability? Most 767s don't, if I am not mistaken.

Evidently, they do.

The aircraft was far too low to be leaving a contrail. The sole origin of the white trails from the wings was well outboard of where the engines are mounted (i.e. not a moisture trail). The white trails originated from only those points and were very persistent across the sky.

I have never seen an aircraft dump fuel "in the flesh," but that is the only thing that this could have been.
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desertcdn
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 9:03 am

My brother was on this flight today. It was a bird strike, I'm told. He confirmed that the pilot did a fuel dump before landing back at SFO. Not sure how bad the damage was...
 
strfyr51
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting desertcdn (Reply 5):

This is 5 MAJOR bird strikes this month, Maybe we ought to install bird warning devices in the takeoff before someone get's KILLED. Sully had the Hudson River but sfo only has the BAY and there are Tankers and Freighter's all OVER the place inbound to Oakland and Richmond. including the Bay Bridge and the Golden Gate. What will it Take before we DO something?? Ive smelled enough engine cooked Bird life to last me a lifetime
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 2:45 pm

While it seems like a no-brainer strfyr51, getting that done in the SF Bay Area will likely run into a buzz saw of environmental opposition. Then the Governor will try to make the airlines pay for it which they won't then they'll bump up the PFC charges for the passengers. The project will take 2x as long and 2x over budget.

Welcome to California  
 
as739x
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 2:54 pm

It was DL 209 to Narita. They had an issue not to long after departure and never made it past Pt. Reyes. They rolled all the way down 28R on arrival with fire crews in position. However, it appeared to me much more a precautionary as the usual full Fire Brigade was not deployed.

They did however call tower, while holding at the Woodside VOR, and ask for the frequency to communicate with emergency crews on arrival. On landing they exited the runway and canceled the emergency.

I never did hear on the tower frequency what the emergency was. My speculation was a flap issue by how much runway they used on arrival.

**Another thread on the topic says a bird strike which makes sense.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 3):

The 767 can dump fuel. All widebody's have the capability.

[Edited 2012-05-13 07:57:34]
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 8):
The 767 can dump fuel. All widebody's have the capability.

No, they don't. They are not available or available as option features for many widebody types including the 767, A300, A310, and A330.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
as739x
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 3:40 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 9):

So it an option on the a/c? Well either way this one was dumping fuel, so DL has the option.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
B757Forever
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 3):
Do DL's 763s even have fuel dump capability? Most 767s don't, if I am not mistaken.

The entire DL 767-300ER and 767-400ER fleets are equipped with fuel dump systems. The 767-300As are not.
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gigneil
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 8):
The 767 can dump fuel. All widebody's have the capability.

That's just blatantly wrong.

NS
 
as739x
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 12):

Yes, and if read above I clearly acknowledged that in reply 10. But thanks for making a point and not replying with any information.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 6):
This is 5 MAJOR bird strikes this month, Maybe we ought to install bird warning devices in the takeoff before someone get's KILLED.

What are you going to do about a 500,000 aircraft at 200 MPH when a bird wanders into its path? You can't outmaneuver a bird and you can't give enough advance predictive warning because nobody knows what goes on inside of a bird's rice-grain-sized brain.
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JHCRJ700
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 6):
Maybe we ought to install bird warning devices in the takeoff before someone get's KILLED

What kind of warning device do you have in mind?   Bird strikes happen and as I understand it all planes are built to withstand them (before anyone freaks out: obviously Sully was an exception). It makes a lot more sense to dump fuel and return to the airport and check things out instead of flying all the way to Narita wondering what kind of damage there may be.
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barney captain
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 6):
This is 5 MAJOR bird strikes this month, Maybe we ought to install bird warning devices in the takeoff before someone get's KILLED. Sully had the Hudson River but sfo only has the BAY and there are Tankers and Freighter's all OVER the place inbound to Oakland and Richmond. including the Bay Bridge and the Golden Gate. What will it Take before we DO something?? Ive smelled enough engine cooked Bird life to last me a lifetime

Ok, we're all ears.

What exactly is a "bird warning device", and how can bird strikes be prevented?

I'm based in OAK and consider the bay a much better place to ditch than the Hudson. Tankers? Simply turn 2 degrees to avoid them - not an issue. There's plenty of boat traffic on the Hudson with far less room to maneuver.
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JHCRJ700
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 16):
Ok, we're all ears.

Well said! The bay also would seem better when compared to the Hudson
Keep close to Nature’s heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean.
 
gigneil
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 13):
Yes, and if read above I clearly acknowledged that in reply 10. But thanks for making a point and not replying with any information.

Which was how I felt about your original post, and your subsequent one was a winner too!

Quoting JHCRJ700 (Reply 17):
Well said! The bay also would seem better when compared to the Hudson

From a traffic perspective, absolutely.

From a freezing to death in the Bay part, I'm not sure I'd love it.   At today's recent measurements of about 50-55 degrees, you would not survive super long - although I am sure the response in the San Francisco Bay would be quite quick.

NS
 
quiet1
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 18):
From a freezing to death in the Bay part, I'm not sure I'd love it.

And, just how warm do you think the Hudson River was in mid-January?   
 
gigneil
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 19):
And, just how warm do you think the Hudson River was in mid-January?   

Oh I'm quite sure it wasn't toasty.  

I mean in general - the Hudson is a much warmer body of water on average (10 degrees or so.) I doubt either would be a pleasant experience.

NS
 
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shengzhurou
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sun May 13, 2012 8:09 pm

it appears to be N195DN and i saw fire trucks standby on both side other runway and followed the aircraft taxi to the terminal, it looks like they had right engine problem.
Sheng Zhu Rou
 
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beau222
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Mon May 14, 2012 3:44 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 3):
Do DL's 763s even have fuel dump capability? Most 767s don't, if I am not mistaken.

What is the rule of thumb when it comes to designing an aircraft with fuel dump capabilities. I personally don't see a reason why any passenger carrying aircraft shouldn't have it. Could not imagine it coming to cost.
 
gigneil
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Mon May 14, 2012 4:09 am

No A330s and most 767s have not been built with them. Nothing smaller than that needs it.

Its unnecessary. The plane can land at MTOW; if it needs to get down that bad it doesn't have time to dump fuel anyway.

If it doesn't need to get down that urgently, flying for a bit to get to MLW or closer to it isn't out of the question. Dumping all that fuel is a horrible environmental hazard.

Sure, an A380 needs a fuel dump system.

NS
 
imiakhtar
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Mon May 14, 2012 4:45 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 23):
No A330s

Incorrect my good man. Fuel jettison is a customer option on at least the A330-200 and possibly the A330-300. EK exercised the fuel jettison option with their A330-200 fleet. See pics below:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Viktor Gula



Jettison nozzle can be seen on the central flap fairing.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mircea G.



Fuel jettison switches on the left of the panel.

Here's a video from what was then a CO B767-400 performing a fuel jettison:

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra..._Airlines_Aviation_Video-7178.html

Jettison starts around the 2:10 mark.
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DocLightning
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Mon May 14, 2012 4:53 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 23):
Dumping all that fuel is a horrible environmental hazard.

It disperses and it's rarely done, anyway. Why is it such a big deal?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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gigneil
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Mon May 14, 2012 4:55 am

It disperses...directly into the environment?

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 24):
Incorrect my good man. Fuel jettison is a customer option on at least the A330-200 and possibly the A330-300. EK exercised the fuel jettison option with their A330-200 fleet. See pics below:

It is CERTAINLY an option you are correct. The information I took a look at said none had been built.

NS
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Mon May 14, 2012 1:23 pm

Quoting shengzhurou (Reply 21):
What is the rule of thumb when it comes to designing an aircraft with fuel dump capabilities. I personally don't see a reason why any passenger carrying aircraft shouldn't have it.

If MTOW is significantly above MLW you should consider having fuel dump capability. Widebodies tend to end up with it more often because they're longer ranges so the gap between MTOW and MLW is larger.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 23):
Its unnecessary. The plane can land at MTOW; if it needs to get down that bad it doesn't have time to dump fuel anyway.

All planes *can* land at MTOW. However, not all have the ability to do it reliably and, especially, without massively overheating the brakes (blown tires, potential gear fire, blocked runway, etc.).

Quoting gigneil (Reply 23):
If it doesn't need to get down that urgently, flying for a bit to get to MLW or closer to it isn't out of the question. Dumping all that fuel is a horrible environmental hazard.

All that fuel is going out the back of the aircraft one way or another; if you dump it goes out as hydrocarbons, which aren't great but do evaporate before they hit the ground (at normal dump altitudes). If you burn it, which is the only other option, then you create steam (no big deal), CO2 (slightly bigger deal), and SOx/NOx (worse than the hydrocarbons in some respects). There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 26):

It disperses...directly into the environment?

Yes. Just like it does when you burn it in flight.

Tom.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Mon May 14, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 10):
So it an option on the a/c? Well either way this one was dumping fuel, so DL has the option.

On the 767 it's based on Maximum Takeoff Weight. If the MTW is higher than Max Landing Weight, a fuel jettison system is installed. It's not a customer selectable option. Most 767s have it, although some lighter weight earlier domestic 767s do not. I think it's been a really long time since a 767 was built that didn't exceed the weight required for fuel jettison.
 
JHCRJ700
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Mon May 14, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
Quoting gigneil (Reply 23):
Dumping all that fuel is a horrible environmental hazard.

It disperses and it's rarely done, anyway. Why is it such a big deal?

I was waiting for someone to bring this up. Planes don't dump fuel often and when they do it's done at an altitude that dispurses the most amount of fuel. It's not like every time a plane dumps fuel there are giant dead patches on the ground or kill zones in bays and what not. There are A LOT worse things being done to the environment daily.
Keep close to Nature’s heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean.
 
mark2fly1034
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Tue May 15, 2012 2:12 am

DL 209/12 (UPDATE) SFO-NRT, ship-195 (B767) STD-1250 with 209 passengers made an air return due to a mechanical (number two engine compressor stall). The flight crew declared an emergency upon arrival due to an overweight landing. The flight landed without incident blocking into the gate at 1449. Maintenance posted a 1500 ready time while a mechanical inspection was performed. Subsequently, the flight cancelled at 1533 when the aircraft was removed from service pending repairs. DL 9856/13 was created for passenger protection with a departure time posted at 0900/13. Passengers were rerouted on alternate service where available and provided overnight accommodations with meal vouchers. ACS agents issued 206 TCV’s totaling $20,600. Flight 9856/13 departed SFO at 0913, 20.37 hours past schedule with 70 passengers.
 
audidudi
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Fri May 18, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 30):

Did ship 184,(N184DN), operate this flight DL 9856?

[Edited 2012-05-17 19:25:41]
 
as739x
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Fri May 18, 2012 2:16 am

Just an update:

The new #2 was put on yesterday and they did an engine check today. Very noticeable with a lot of white smoke. I'll let you know if the aircraft is moved from plot-41 tomorrow.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
citationjet
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Fri May 18, 2012 3:17 am

Here is what Boeing's website says about which Boeing models have in-flight fuel jettison capability:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/faqs/fueldump.pdf
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Fri May 18, 2012 4:10 pm

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 30):
DL 209/12 (UPDATE) SFO-NRT, ship-195 (B767) STD-1250 with 209 passengers made an air return due to a mechanical (number two engine compressor stall). The flight crew declared an emergency upon arrival due to an overweight landing. The flight landed without incident blocking into the gate at 1449. Maintenance posted a 1500 ready time while a mechanical inspection was performed. Subsequently, the flight cancelled at 1533 when the aircraft was removed from service pending repairs. DL 9856/13 was created for passenger protection with a departure time posted at 0900/13. Passengers were rerouted on alternate service where available and provided overnight accommodations with meal vouchers. ACS agents issued 206 TCV’s totaling $20,600. Flight 9856/13 departed SFO at 0913, 20.37 hours past schedule with 70 passengers.

Must have been nice to be aboard a 763 with only 70 pax. aboard.  

Does anyone know why a compressor stall would have occurred? I was under the impression that such events were extremely rare in well-maintained, modern turbofans with electronic engine control.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
audidudi
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Fri May 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Ship 195 (N195DN) is currently enroute to LAS as DL9931 and then operates DL753 from LAS-DTW.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL9931

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N195DN

[Edited 2012-05-18 10:50:05]

[Edited 2012-05-18 10:50:38]

[Edited 2012-05-18 10:53:30]
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sat May 19, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 32):
The new #2 was put on yesterday and they did an engine check today. Very noticeable with a lot of white smoke.

That's normal for an engine from storage; there's a protective oil film in there that has to burn off.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
Does anyone know why a compressor stall would have occurred? I was under the impression that such events were extremely rare in well-maintained, modern turbofans with electronic engine control.

As the compressor wears down it has to operate closer and closer to stall in order to do its job ('surge margin"). Engines usually chew up their turbines first, driving replacement, but if they've got a really dirty or worn compressor or they took some very small FOD that was enough to trigger a compressor stall, there you'd go. The EEC is good at controlling the surge margin but if something unexpected trips it the EEC isn't usually fast enough to catch it.

Tom.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: 767 Dumping Fuel At SFO 5/12

Sat May 19, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 6):
This is 5 MAJOR bird strikes this month,

Define major. In the spring and fall, our fleet suffers bird strikes nightly. Usually, not an issue. The airframe is inspected, the engine is borescoped (depending on type) and off they go. I can count on 1 hand how many times we've had to pull an engine due to birdstrike...lots of radomes, but rarely an engine.

Sometimes, it's a problem, but whether it's a non-event or not is largely up to chance.
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